interview with arri`s manager - unfortunately only in german

[Danish P.V.]

interesting article with an interview with arri`s manager franz kraus, they`ve announced a new 2K camera for 2009 at a price of approx. a 16mm camera (i guess around 40K euro). he`s referring to red, too (of course) and makes some good points. also hints about future, full spectrum LED lighting systems with outputs up to 1KW (I guess something like zylight`s)

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

Were is the link?

[Danish P.V.]

oops. sorry :-D
here it is:

http://www.film-tv-video.de/newsdetail+M554e858701e.html

[Sanjin Jukic]

Franz Kraus, who as CEO of ARRI AG mainly said that ARRI preparing a sort of 2K smaller type digital camera that will be

the same size as a 16mm camera and will have sensor with sensitivity, DR and latitude that equals to a film (!!!???).

[Graeme Nattress]

http://translate.google.ca/translate?prev=hp&hl=en&js=n&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.film-tv-video.de%2Fnewsdetail%2BM554e858701e.html&sl=de&tl=en

For those of us who don't read German.

[Zack Birlew]

Talk, talk, talk, RED's bringing 6K by the end of the year. Talk about bringing a knife to a gun fight.

[Fredrik Callinggard]

Talk, talk, talk, RED's bringing 6K by the end of the year. Talk about bringing a knife to a gun fight.

Well they have obtained the Dalsa technology and NO ONE can say that the ARRI design is not one of the best. So put those two together and maybe there's a player there.

I for one is watching this with interest. Also, resolution is as he says not everything.

[Graeme Nattress]

Did you not read the article? They DID NOT buy from Dalsa. That deal was off from ages ago.

As for resolution, resolution is not everything, but it's still vitally important. If you don't capture it at the time, you can't get it later. Resolution opens up vast possibilities.

Graeme

[Zack Birlew]

Well, true, granted I'd be worried for the SI-2K with all of these new 2K cameras in development. However, in the camera game, numbers speak louder than tech specs for most. Still, it's good that Arri is doing this because they really need to hop on the digital bandwagon. For example, at Chapman we're filming our big projects for the semester and I'm one, if not the only filmmakers there who has decided to film their project digitally, in this case with my Nikon D90. The rest of the students are doing 16mm film. By the end of the first weekend I had to shoot, I had a first cut on the table and everybody else didn't have anything to show because they have to wait about a week or so to get their films processed. Needless to say, we're getting down to our last few weeks of school so, whereas I'm more than halfway done with my edit, the others will be stuck having to frantically edit something together in a hurry to meet the deadline. In that instance, digital trumped film. Whether the look will be the same or not has yet to be seen but, even so, my D90 stuff looks pretty good and could very well stand on its own come screening time.

[Danish P.V.]

By the end of the first weekend I had to shoot, I had a first cut on the table and everybody else didn't have anything to show because they have to wait about a week or so to get their films processed.

Why this? Each time we`ve dropped our exposed cans at schwarzfilm here in Berlin the assembled big spool was ready within a couple of hours...

And regarding your "6K" - it`s exactely what Franz Kraus was speaking of in the interview I`ve linked - more resolution doesn`t necessarily mean more quality and if Arri provides a well engineered, true, solid and reliable 2K camera that easily fits into existing workflows and accessories I`m with them (even if I`m not their biggest fan in terms of customers relationship - but their cameras and acc. are first class - ok, with a price tag, of course ;-)

[Danish P.V.]

Talk, talk, talk, RED's bringing 6K by the end of the year. Talk about bringing a knife to a gun fight.

Not a really grown up statement for discussions, btw...

[Marc Berger]

I like the part he says Jim Jannard was not able to acquire customers, he acquired devotees!
Lovely!
It´s very sad I can´t be at the Nab Party. I would love to kiss the Gurus feet.
To sad, I have to stay "only" a customer (customer=I spent money and got great valued gear for it).
The big business world is in the beginning always laughing about somebody who follows his crazy dreams and visions with passion.
Maybe over 5000 customers in such a short time is just to much to digest.
Or does Arri know already who is doing all the movies in the future?


Marc:sifone:

[Fredrik Callinggard]

Did you not read the article? They DID NOT buy from Dalsa. That deal was off from ages ago.

Actually I didn't before I answered hahaha my apologies.

[Graeme Nattress]

:-) The first rule of commenting on an article is to read it. :-) I think whatever Arri will do it will be interesting, but I find it amusing that " Digital cinematography is neither cheap nor easy " but surely it should be!

And "The users see someday that more pixels does not bring more, but also has disadvantages: More pixels on the same area mean that the individual pixels smaller and is less sensitive to light" but surely a 16mm sensor sized 2k will have very similar pixel size to a 4k 35mm camera?

Perhaps it's the translation from German?

Graeme

[Sanjin Jukic]

ARRI forgot an old German concept from 30s about a mass production car for the people

a.k.a. VOLKSWAGEN... ("Volks" in German = people, "Wagen" in German = Car)

They are still making a notion like in that interview with Franz Kraus, who as CEO of ARRI AG, that making movies is such an elite thing that needs an elite equipment, etc...

From that mistake they didn't learn nothing at all and it means there are not going to be one of the major players in a digital cinema future...

Here we know well who will be one of them for sure... :sifone:

[Eric.T]

he is also saying that the 2k camera will be modular but he doesnt go into details. seems like red had a huge impact on how cameras will be designed in the future! i love it.
cant wait for my scarlet :D

[Danish P.V.]

ARRI forgot an old German concept from 30s about a mass production car for the people

a.k.a. VOLKSWAGEN... ("Volks" in German = people, "Wagen" in German = Car)

They are still making a notion like in that interview with Franz Kraus, who as CEO of ARRI AG, that making movies is such an elite thing that needs an elite equipment, etc...

From that mistake they didn't learn nothing at all and it means there are not going to be one of the major players in a digital cinema future...

Here we know well who will be one of them for sure... :sifone:

If I`m not totally wrong they`re not after the mass market Red wants to get into / has gotten into.
Kraus says that there`s a market of about 6000 professional and highend filmcameras (which currently are mainly covered by Arriflex, Moviecam (belongs to Arri AG, too, now), Panavision, Aaton and other vendors` cameras) and that`s what they`re after it seems.

BTW, the 2K camera they want to offer seems to be of a reflex-viewfinder type - as long as it`s of the size of the Red One (not like that Dalsa tanks) I would really like to get ahold of such a device :-)

[J. Eric Camp]

It's going to be an interesting few years to say the least. Digital technology has finally developed to the point that it can do what everyone touted as it's strengths and heralds. Now you can say such things with out making excuses.

The fight / race is on. It will be very intriguing to see what develops.

[Yannick Hagman]

" Digital cinematography is neither cheap nor easy " but surely it should be!

Yes it should. But unfortunately it isn't. It's still very expensive with a fixed lens Scarlet for a hobbiest. The whole accessories, post processing and archiving will cost a foot and a leg.

[Graeme Nattress]

We can debate all day about "cheap", "expensive", and what RED is, which is "in-expensive".

Graeme

[chuck colburn]

But it was nice of Arri to make the spining mirror reflective viewing camera.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Shame. I was hoping someone would produce a S35 3k camera. The pixel sites would be so nice and fat. :(

[David Mullen ASC]

Shame. I was hoping someone would produce a S35 3k camera. The pixel sites would be so nice and fat. :(

The Arri D21 is a 2.88K RAW S35 camera -- isn't that close enough to 3K RAW?

[Marc Berger]

We can debate all day about "cheap", "expensive", and what RED is, which is "in-expensive".

Graeme

ARRI is a great company and will have its place in the future, but nobody in the movie world before Red understood how the digital step had to be done: Red lets the client pay for a sensor and electronics, knowledge in developping software, support and nothing else. And the most important: They got out on the market with the latest technology right away and were not hiding it for the second wave.
So R1 is really "in-expensive", a bargain, and not cheap, because you pay for what you get and not history or the label or expensive mechanics (which is not implemented).
Good accesories and lenses will stay expensive in the future, but to try keeping prices up regarding digital cams -moving or stills- can´t work.
Marc

[Gavin Greenwalt]

The Arri D21 is a 2.88K RAW S35 camera -- isn't that close enough to 3K RAW?

There's a D21? I thought that's the 16mm they were announcing in that interview. Interesting...

You know one thing to keep in mind now is that even though RED is currently dominating the market... if someone else comes along in the sub $25k range with a better product the 'cost of transitioning' is so low people might switch just as quickly away.

If another company can get their shit together I think we'll start to see pretty rapid turn over in cameras. If you can pay off a camera in 8 months and lenses are compatible then I could pretty easily see a scenario where people are alternating between their arri upgrade and their red upgrade every year.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

6 months ago they were talking about the need of a 6k camera to reach film.

and in the interview he is talking about dps who doesnt want software updates all the time.

They are probably great DP`s of the present, but the future belongs to others.
cameras turned to PC`s...they will get better and cheaper every 18 months.

steenbeck died.
photoshop killed a lot.
if arri listens to this CEO they can only be the best camera assecory supplier of the future.


i only see them as competition today if they would have made a 5k camera with direct to Cineform recording,........which i expect from P+S soon

edit: but they are right with using a degrain tool.
---wish red would have a great one in the redsoftware GUI

[David Mullen ASC]

I think for the professional world there is always room for a more "elitist" (if you want to call it that) manufacturer just like there is room in the auto industry for expensive sports cars and low-cost family cars.

But people with deep pockets have to believe they are getting something "more" for their money -- better manufacturing, better picture quality, something.

After all, even RED is coming out with a "high end" camera line (EPIC) and a cheaper camera line (SCARLET) with the notion that professionals will be willing to spend more to get more.

The question is what products will ARRI create that will seem worth paying more for, more than a RED product. I have no idea. On the surface, a more expensive (than Scarlet) 2K RAW camera doesn't sound like a good idea, especially if it has a 16mm sensor, but the devil is in the details.

I'd rather they took the D21 and gave it a 4K or 5K sensor, with better sensitivity (more like 400 to 500 ASA in Log C mode, not 200 ASA) and better dynamic range.

[Petr Dvorak]

So how much is D-21 used now? I know only German film Krabat was shot with that in 3K.

I remeber that Sony in some press release talked about 4K chain and that they mention development of 4K camera too, but it was like 2 years ago.

[M Most]

he is also saying that the 2k camera will be modular but he doesnt go into details. seems like red had a huge impact on how cameras will be designed in the future! i love it.


Modular design has been around and implemented in a number of projects for some time. In fact, the prototype for the Arri D20 was just such a design, basically a 435 base for the optical path, with a separate "back" - one for film, one for digital capture. The optical section was common between the formats. The Silicon Imaging camera has been a modular design almost from the beginning, with an imaging head that can be physically separated from the electronics. In fact, the SI head design is remarkably similar to the Red DSMC "brain" in terms of its physical footprint - which is one reason it's been a popular choice for 3D rigs. Even Sony has had a version of the F950 with a physically separate head and processing electronics, and it has been used on a number of 3D rigs as well. Red is certainly taking the modular concept a bit further, but it's a bit revisionist to imply that they're the first to adopt it.

[M Most]

So how much is D-21 used now? I know only German film Krabat was shot with that in 3K.

The D21 is a reasonably popular choice for television work - although I did some work on an independent feature shot in New York and Miami using the D21 in Arri Raw mode (recorded using S.two DFRs), called "Handsome Harry". Although Red is certainly making its presence known for US network television work, the most popular choices on this year's pilots - by far - were the Panavision Genesis and the Sony F23 and F35.

It should also be mentioned that out of about 70 pilots, only 2 were shot on film. The rest were all shot on digital formats, primarily the cameras mentioned above. This was largely influenced by the SAG situation, which led all of the major studios to go with AFTRA contracts on their pilots - which in turn demands non-film production mediums. The move towards digital capture was certainly growing, but it was significantly accelerated by the SAG stance.

[David Mullen ASC]

The Arri D21 is being used on the TV show "Supernatural" along with the RED ONE.

It was recently used (actually the D20) on "RocknRolla". I believe the D20 was also used for the recent TV remake of "The Andromeda Strain" as well as the mini-series "The Company" and "Tin Man".

I think the biggest impediment for me is the sensitivity, it's still below 320 ASA in LOG mode (from what I've heard), though of course you can rate it faster if you don't mind noise. I don't know what "Supernatural" is rating it at, probably 320 ASA along with their RED's, but I assume they must have some low-light night stuff to deal with.

[John K]

http://translate.google.ca/translate?prev=hp&hl=en&js=n&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.film-tv-video.de%2Fnewsdetail%2BM554e858701e.html&sl=de&tl=en

For those of us who don't read German.

Ah, the good old Babelfish technology:

"Currently, Arri among others with burglary in very good so far Russia and China-fighting business, but also in the U.S., where currently no such re-invested."

So, are they the ones who broke into your factory a couple of years back? Now we're seeing the results!

Edited to add: My bad; that was not from Babelfish.

Babelfish actually does a better job of the same sentence:

"At present Arri must fight among other things with break-downs in so far very good Russia and China business, in addition, in the USA, where so strongly one does not reinvest at present."

[Hans von Sonntag]

And "The users see someday that more pixels does not bring more, but also has disadvantages: More pixels on the same area mean that the individual pixels smaller and is less sensitive to light" but surely a 16mm sensor sized 2k will have very similar pixel size to a 4k 35mm camera?

Perhaps it's the translation from German?

Graeme

In this particular article Krauss never mentioned the size of the sensor. We are assuming that 2K resolution and beeing the acclaimed successor for S16mm cameras leads automatically to a S16mm sized sensor. I guess this assumtion is meaningful, though.

I think his statement was a general one and not aimed towards a smaller/ bigger sensor, lower/higher resolution discussion concerning the upcoming 2K camera. All he is saying that smaller pixel are less sensitive and for a given sensor size one trades sensitivity for resolution. Hence in his opinion resolution is not all.

Personally I find Krauss' views on Red, tapeless workflows, production types etc... pretty profound.

Hans

[Danish P.V.]

Personally I find Krauss' views on Red, tapeless workflows, production types etc... pretty profound.

Hans

Me too.

I can understand why Arri has a tough time on this forum, but the amount of hatred against them is unprofessional. They are offering more expensive but well engineered and built equipment - don`t get me wrong, the Red One produces fine images but the system still has a couple of quirks.

But one thing is undisputable: without Red - Arri would not be that pressed to offer lower priced cameras and accessories. It`s a win-win situation for us customers, at least in my opinion.

[Marc Berger]

Agree too.
BTW I don´t see ARRI gets a tough time in this forum.

Marc