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donatello b
04-20-2009, 09:03 AM
looks like Sony Vegas 9 will edit Red "natively"...
don't know the fine details .. they should have derails at NAB ..

"4K Support New!
Vegas Pro 9 software natively supports frame sizes up to 4096x4096. The 4K image standard for digital cinema projection is 4096 x 2160 pixels. This level of resolution provides more detail and flexibility to pan and crop. It is ideal for compositing and video effects work, as it provides a high-quality final output. Vegas Pro 9 software also natively supports RED ONE files. You can open and edit .r3d files directly on the timeline as you would any other video file"

yu can click on the graphic next to "4k support NEW" and see decode settings
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/vegaspro9/videoediting

Elizabeth Lowrey
04-20-2009, 09:18 AM
Just got an email notice of this this morning. Very, very good news, as I really didn't want to switch editors (which I would have already had to do had I elected to complete my RED One purchase when my reservation came up last fall rather than wait for Scarlett.)

I will go ahead and pre-order version 9 based on the native R3D support alone.

Donatello, did you interpret the announcement to mean that Vegas and DVD Architect have now been merged into a single application? Also, are you at NAB this week?

donatello b
04-20-2009, 09:36 AM
i think V9 & DVDa5 are still 2 separate applications ...
i had bought CS3/4 last year and never install either ..
been a Vegas user since Vegas 2 and beta tester since V3 ..was not a beta tester on V9

last year at NAB i spoke to Sony ( Dave Hill - then head of sony software team in USA) he said they wanted Vegas to be able to edit Red ... we then walked over to Red's booth to speak to Red team but Ted wasn't in - Dave said he would try again during NAB or after .. so looks like Dave did follow thru ....

haven't decided about NAB ??
do have plane ticket & hotel reservations for 22-23 ...
will decide tuesday AM ...

Brian Kaz
04-20-2009, 11:16 AM
As much as I love hearing about new cameras and affordable pro lenses, this is the best news I've heard since the announcement of RED. Premiere has been okay, but is no substitute for that great Vegas interface & encoding quality IMO.
Audio-wise Vegas is on a whole other level.

Hugh Scully
04-20-2009, 11:56 AM
I am ecstatic over the fact that Sony Vegas will be supporting Red One files natively! I was all set to plunk down a ton for a new Mac Pro and Final Cut to enable a switch to Red. This will save me a couple of grand towards my Scarlet purchase. I'm leaning S35 but I really want to wait to see what the mini-primes are going to cost for the 2/3 Scarlet. I will be curious to learn what if any drawbacks using this new version may present as compared to the Mac and Final cut as I am purchasing a new machine anyway. I am very comfortable with Sony Vegas having edited my most recent short on it. I have been very happy Sony Vegas so this is great news for me!

Joe Carney
04-20-2009, 01:41 PM
I'm here at NAB and saw it in action at the Sony booth. Real time 4k r3d playback on the timeline. Demo system is an 8core Athllon, so should be even faster on the new Nehalem Xeons.

Full access to the Metadata with sliders and such. No need for proxy or prores nastiness.

Vegas is officially 10bit capable now too, not just for Red. Full Rec709 finally plus linear and log (at least for Red).

Awesome news.

Hugh Scully
04-20-2009, 01:56 PM
10 bit capable, great. I remember that being a concern from posts I read in the past. Thanks for the update

Joe Carney
04-20-2009, 10:06 PM
Other cool things, Vegas will capture sdi content and convert it to mxf compressed format in realtime. It was a great party tonight. The new production assistant plug in included with Vegas (developed by VASST) is uber cool too.
It seems they concentrated more on steak than sizzle this time (good). Much more stable, also Red files can be loaded in either the 32 or 64bit version. I'll ask more questions at the booth tomorrow (double check to make sure Rec 709 is fully supported outside of Red).

p.s. They guaranteed shipping on May 11. We should petition Jarred to create a Vegas work flow section soon after.

Joe Carney
04-20-2009, 10:46 PM
Also announced at the party, VASST Gearshift will offer Red Proxy files/support for systems that can't handle Red 4K.

Elizabeth Lowrey
04-20-2009, 10:58 PM
Joe, thanks so much for that info, and please post anything else you learn.

I presume they were running in Vista 64? (I haven't made the jump yet from XP Pro.) Everything looked stable and responsive? Any idea what minimum system specs would be for, say, realtime 2K playback? I won't need 4K anytime soon.

Troy Smith
04-20-2009, 11:06 PM
As much as I love hearing about new cameras and affordable pro lenses, this is the best news I've heard since the announcement of RED. Premiere has been okay, but is no substitute for that great Vegas interface & encoding quality IMO.
Audio-wise Vegas is on a whole other level..

Hi Kaz, when you mention encoding quality over premiere, what format are you talking there, I've never used vegas and always looking for the best encoders for dvd and web delivery.

Troy Smith
04-20-2009, 11:10 PM
I'm here at NAB and saw it in action at the Sony booth. Real time 4k r3d playback on the timeline. Demo system is an 8core Athllon, so should be even faster on the new Nehalem Xeons.

Full access to the Metadata with sliders and such. No need for proxy or prores nastiness.

Vegas is officially 10bit capable now too, not just for Red. Full Rec709 finally plus linear and log (at least for Red).

Awesome news.

with regards to 4k playback, wat debayer level was that?
not even scratch can do 4k realtime, is that for real, 4k playback in realtime!

and obviously the r3d files are not limited to 10 bit right? as PPro is 16bit RGB color precision

Joe Carney
04-20-2009, 11:15 PM
Joe, thanks so much for that info, and please post anything else you learn.

I presume they were running in Vista 64? (I haven't made the jump yet from XP Pro.) Everything looked stable and responsive? Any idea what minimum system specs would be for, say, realtime 2K playback? I won't need 4K anytime soon.

I'll try to find out tomorrow. Spot was showing Red 4k footage on a laptop playing back at slightly less than real time.
in a note of irony, Spot used a Mac Book Pro as his preferred system in the field. It's very rugged. He runs Vista 64 Ultimate and Vegas on it. hehehe.

Roberto Lequeux
04-20-2009, 11:16 PM
I'm here at NAB and saw it in action at the Sony booth. Real time 4k r3d playback on the timeline. Demo system is an 8core Athllon, so should be even faster on the new Nehalem Xeons.

Full access to the Metadata with sliders and such. No need for proxy or prores nastiness.

Vegas is officially 10bit capable now too, not just for Red. Full Rec709 finally plus linear and log (at least for Red).

Awesome news.

WOOOWWW.... Must calm down... I need to hear more about this... I am SO sticking with Vegas if this turns out to be flawless. I need SPEED, and Vegas has always lagged behind in a big way.

BUT about 5k 2.4?!?!!! This is so close yet so far away! I guess you could down convert from 5k to 4k and stay with .r3d? Might as well make a ProRes at that point? I'd love some opinions on this!


but is no substitute for that great Vegas interface


Audio-wise Vegas is on a whole other level.

Couldn't agree more!


Also announced at the party, VASST Gearshift will offer Red Proxy files/support for systems that can't handle Red 4K.

Could this give us everything we need? Some grading real time would be ideal but I guess that is still not near for any NLE running on a single station. But at least 100% solid RT playback?


Joe, thanks so much for that info, and please post anything else you learn.

I presume they were running in Vista 64? (I haven't made the jump yet from XP Pro.) Everything looked stable and responsive? Any idea what minimum system specs would be for, say, realtime 2K playback? I won't need 4K anytime soon.

Same here. This would make me jump because we'd need the memory. it really isn't an option. I haven't heard complaining about Vista for a while now.

jbeale
04-20-2009, 11:24 PM
Vegas Pro 9 software also natively supports RED ONE™ files. You can open and edit .r3d files directly on the timeline as you would any other video file"
yu can click on the graphic next to "4k support NEW" and see decode settings
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/vegaspro9/videoediting

!! Very interesting news, indeed, thanks for pointing it out! Looks like V9 has some significant new I/O capabilities:

Support for Gigapixel-Size Pictures
With Vegas Pro 9 software you can pan, scan, and crop extremely large images to create a movie sequence while maintaining HD resolution.

Opens and saves DPX and EXR (among others)

Joe Carney
04-21-2009, 08:14 AM
Also remember Vegas is still cpu centric. Does not utilize gpu.
But since demonstrations are running on slower amd chips at the booth, it will be interesting to see what a dual nehalem xeon setup will do.
In answer to the 10bit question, I meant it is supporting 10bit codecs it seems. It's processing for effects and such should be 32bit float. 32bit float was only partially implemented in 8.x. Now a popup dialog with sliders gives you the ability to modify Reds' metadata. You can choose between linear, log and Rec709.
I don't know if this is any better than Redcine at the moment. I don't know what will happen if traditional color correcting methods are applied, or even if they should be. Lots of questions, but have to remember, most people working the booths usually don't have deep technical knowledge of the product.

Roberto Lequeux
04-21-2009, 08:51 AM
Support for Gigapixel-Size Pictures
With Vegas Pro 9 software you can pan, scan, and crop extremely large images to create a movie sequence while maintaining HD resolution.

Very cool indeed! I had some major issues trying to do this a while back.


Opens and saves DPX and EXR (among others)

I am sure lots will be VERY happy for DPX support.


In answer to the 10bit question, I meant it is supporting 10bit codecs it seems. It's processing for effects and such should be 32bit float. 32bit float was only partially implemented in 8.x.

Well yes, they were not going to roll back one of the best features in 32-bit floating. But now it is better? Faster? "Real"?

I still fear for speed. Them saying that the demo system at the booth is running off slower than currently out chips scares the crap out of me... that could be a blatant lie and they may have dual fastest Xeons under the hood for all we know... (any chance to check if at least it is a single CPU system? :) I am dead serious... You can never trust corporations.

I wonder if Vegas can work with a Kona type card for output to a production monitor? What is needed? My Vegas station never got a monitor so I don't know how I would go about that in my current version anyway.

I guess that native support if real would mean that you would grade once and right off the RAW info, so it would be like grading out of RED Cine and having the ability to tweak it whenever, however, re-do it, un-do it, always from the full RAW info.

A little list of questions I would love to ask them:
1. Can I see the inside of the computer?
2. Will we be able to use 10-bit monitors?
3. How? (#2)
4. What about 5k footage?

Thanks Joe!!! Please keep us updated!

William Robinette
04-21-2009, 12:03 PM
I wonder if Vegas can work with a Kona type card for output to a production monitor? What is needed? My Vegas station never got a monitor so I don't know how I would go about that in my current version anyway.

So far as I know, Vegas is very friendly with AJA products.

Roberto Lequeux
04-21-2009, 12:16 PM
Thanks. So now we just need actual 10-bit monitors and we are good to go?

Pardon my ignorance but I never set this sort of thing up.

Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso
04-21-2009, 03:21 PM
10 bits I/O???
red native support?

BEST NEWS IN 2009!

Brian Kaz
04-21-2009, 04:05 PM
.

Hi Kaz, when you mention encoding quality over premiere, what format are you talking there, I've never used vegas and always looking for the best encoders for dvd and web delivery.

Hi. I was mostly just making a general statement about Vegas' quality, but from the few months I've spent with CS4, I've found their .mp4 encoder to be troublesome at times (like not being able to play back the file in some players, crashing, or the file sizes come out much larger than Vegas output with lesser results). Wmv has been a disaster thru Adobe Media encoder. Even putting my settings as high as they can go, I get banding and blocking where on Vegas I have successfully made 1080p files that come close to matching the quality of my original all at very managable sizes. Mpeg 2 I have not made yet thru Media encoder, but Vegas renders them at around 3-4x realtime speed on my system. Again, the quality is exceptional.

Man, I STILL have a huge smile on my face since this announcement.

Troy Smith
04-21-2009, 04:23 PM
Thanks for the response Kaz.

As far as the r3d support, is this a new sdk from red, as I thought the current sdk did not allow companies to give support for metadata control etc? Thought only scratch had the go ahead for that, or did I miss understand this subject.

THanks
stricko

Roberto Lequeux
04-21-2009, 06:07 PM
Kaz, am I the only one that fears preview power/speed?

I am thinkning about how fast my current system plays back 1080 DVCpro HD and wonder how the crap V9 will be able to handle 4k r3d... granted, I am still in XP-32, using only 4GB of DDR2 on a Q6600 quad at 3.15GHz and Nehalem + loads of DDR3 will be a different beast... but we are talking 4 x 1080p .r3d

I'd love to hear people's opinions on this subject.

Brian Kaz
04-22-2009, 03:10 AM
Yeah, I'm a little worried about preview, but I've been able to edit uncompressed 2k avi's without a preview hitch on my current system (i7 920~12gb ram). I do have stutter problems with wmv and large mp4s though. Guess we won't know for sure 'til it's actually here, but I remain cautiously optimistic.

Roberto Lequeux
04-22-2009, 03:27 AM
I've been able to edit uncompressed 2k avi's without a preview hitch on my current system (i7 920~12gb ram). I do have stutter problems with wmv and large mp4s though.

That sounds encouraging though. If you don't mind I'd love to ask you a few questions:

1. Is your 920 at stock speed?
2. Do you use a production monitor? With what card?
3. On your LCD do you get banding? What video card?

Finally, I am not sure if you guys saw the announcement of Red Rocket: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=29331

Vegas was not mentioned. Perhaps we should ask in unison.

Thommes Ulfeng
04-22-2009, 07:00 AM
Great news is an understatement. - Anybody seen 3K in action at NAB? I wonder how much or how little hardware is needed to run Vegas9 for 3K editing 2K output. Anybody? Guessing is allowed :)

Brian Kaz
04-22-2009, 10:01 AM
That sounds encouraging though. If you don't mind I'd love to ask you a few questions:

1. Is your 920 at stock speed?
2. Do you use a production monitor? With what card?
3. On your LCD do you get banding? What video card?

Finally, I am not sure if you guys saw the announcement of Red Rocket: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=29331

Vegas was not mentioned. Perhaps we should ask in unison.

Hey, Roberto.

1. Yes.
2. Not at the moment.
3. No. 280gtx

As far as Vegas not being mentioned in the Red Rocket thread, Jim states any application using the REDCODE SDK will be accelerated, so I don't see why Vegas wouldn't be among them.

Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso
04-22-2009, 11:42 AM
This is it!

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/images/image.asp?img=/images/ss/lg/VegasPro9_RedSettings.jpg


What i dont see is the preview quality (1/2, full...) but this rocks!

Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso
04-22-2009, 11:46 AM
It seems we can order Vegas from the website right now. Has anyone buy it allready?

William Barber
04-22-2009, 11:47 AM
It seems we can order Vegas from the website right now. Has anyone buy it allready?

It ships and is available for download in 19 or so days.

Roberto Lequeux
04-22-2009, 06:26 PM
Kaz, thanks man! I was really needing someone to say that Red Rocket would work and stop assuming that all alone. :)

About the video card, I wonder if a 260/216 or 275 would do to eliminate banding at 1080? I suppose it should.

And I wonder if they would suffice for 1080/2k real time grading.

And I wonder how it will all work with a monitor?

Don't wait to order Vegas 9, if you pre-order it now you get a very nice discount! You'll see it on the cart.

Wadro
04-22-2009, 06:54 PM
In fact here is the link to pre-order Vegas Pro 9 with R3D 4k support. You also get a free training DVD "Vegas 9 Seminar Series DVD"

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/buy/vegaspro9?keycode=64212

Vegas Pro 9 software also natively supports RED ONE™ files. You can open and edit .r3d files directly on the timeline as you would any other video file.

Kyle Mallory
04-24-2009, 09:58 AM
You guys got to be really careful about how you propagate this information, else it will become FUD... I spent a lot of time at the Sony and Adobe booths critically examining this stuff for playback/performance.

It is important to realize that while the project is 4k, and the media is 4k, because of the R3D "dynamic proxies", you are typically not seeing 4k real-time playback.

In the case of Sony Vegas, at their booth, while it was a 4k timeline, and 4k R3D media, the preview settings in Vegas are typically set to Preview or Draft at Quarter or "Auto" quality. At the bottom of the preview window are a couple of numbers (resolutions) At the top left (under the preview frame), is the project resolution, below which is the "Preview" resolution. Top right (still at the bottom of the window) is the "Display" resolution. The all important number here is the "Preview" resolution. This is the resolution that is actually being decoded for preview on the timeline. The absolute best I could see from ANY of the Sony machines (including the high-end machine up in the private suite above the booth space) was 1024x512 (2:1), or 4k @ 1/4 res.

Again, be VERY careful when you say "4k-real-time." Even Adobe's solution, on the HP Z, could only manage a single stream of 4k media at 1/2 resolution (2k output). This was truly impressive. The instant you start doing disolves or multiple layers with alpha channels, you will start to drop frames on playback.

RED Rocket will be a huge help in regard to decode performance for all systems. In asking the Sony/Vegas reps about hardware acceleration (GPU support, etc). He said they were looking into it, but that they prefer to focus on a solution that is machine independent, and which produces consistent, accurate output regardless of which hardware you have. They are struggling with these ideas, vs taking advantage of hardware when available.





WOOOWWW.... Must calm down... I need to hear more about this... I am SO sticking with Vegas if this turns out to be flawless. I need SPEED, and Vegas has always lagged behind in a big way.

BUT about 5k 2.4?!?!!! This is so close yet so far away! I guess you could down convert from 5k to 4k and stay with .r3d? Might as well make a ProRes at that point? I'd love some opinions on this!





Couldn't agree more!



Could this give us everything we need? Some grading real time would be ideal but I guess that is still not near for any NLE running on a single station. But at least 100% solid RT playback?



Same here. This would make me jump because we'd need the memory. it really isn't an option. I haven't heard complaining about Vista for a while now.

Brian Kaz
04-24-2009, 10:21 AM
I don't think anyone here is expecting "4k realtime" playback. We are just hoping for "realtime" playback since Vegas can be stuttery in that regard for some formats. IMO, 1k editing will be enough for most people, especially if it produces realtime performance using multiple layers, transitions, FX etc. Being able to quickly switch to 2k or above for a more accurate image analysis then back again will certainly suffice until Red Rocket becomes available/supported.

Kyle Mallory
04-24-2009, 10:36 AM
Real time playback is easily doable. I do it on my laptop all the time, w/ R3D. It just depends on how willing you are to accept editing with the lower-res proxies. Its the same as cutting in FCP with the various QT proxy files. The 1k playback for Vegas was still only for 1 stream (no layers, no transitions). You'd have to drop to 512x256 (Draft/Quarter Res) to maintain 2 streams in real time (on their hardware... get a HP Z, and things will be different).

Hugh Scully
04-24-2009, 12:22 PM
I would be very interested in what people think about what would be a good workstation for Vegas 9. I am ordering the upgrade. I was all set to switch to a Mac Pro and Final Cut so this is great for me. Does anyone know if there is a Dual i7 motherboard out there. I can't find one. Which would be better a single processor i7 or 2 w5580s? Any sharing on hardware would be greatly appreciated.

Wadro
04-24-2009, 02:47 PM
this system will rock with the new 12 core system (2-6 core Istanbul processors)

http://www.colfax-intl.com/DL_Documents/Colfax-Digistation-CX980.pdf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D11uY5dOE2c

Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso
04-24-2009, 03:39 PM
1/4 of horizontal resolution (1K) at full real time is good enough for me right now.

Roberto Lequeux
04-24-2009, 03:52 PM
The absolute best I could see from ANY of the Sony machines (including the high-end machine up in the private suite above the booth space) was 1024x512 (2:1), or 4k @ 1/4 res.

I assumed this, since "normal" monitors can't even fit 1/2 at 2048x1024. However some might have assumed that you were seeing a scaled down version which would be impossible at all given the amount of processing necessary.

I hope Red Rocket will do just that and give us a 1080p off a 4k/5k in RT, letting all of our CPU and GPU power handle transitions VFX and grading.


In asking the Sony/Vegas reps about hardware acceleration (GPU support, etc). He said they were looking into it, but that they prefer to focus on a solution that is machine independent, and which produces consistent, accurate output regardless of which hardware you have. They are struggling with these ideas, vs taking advantage of hardware when available.

Thank you for asking all the right questions. Thankfully it would seem that Vegas would benefit from SDK acceleration whether they are lost or not. I would hope that is the case anyway... if they fudged it up it would really suck.

So would only have to make sure that we have a computer capable of handling 1080 uncompressed RGB with a Rocket? That should be attainable with ease by dual Xeons and topped out RAM, right?


I would be very interested in what people think about what would be a good workstation for Vegas 9. I am ordering the upgrade. I was all set to switch to a Mac Pro and Final Cut so this is great for me. Does anyone know if there is a Dual i7 motherboard out there. I can't find one. Which would be better a single processor i7 or 2 w5580s? Any sharing on hardware would be greatly appreciated.

There might be an ASUS enthusiast board coming out soon that would let you overclock two Xeons. You will not find a dual 920 board though it will have to be Xeons but it doesn't matter... a little bit more money yes, but same performance.

Thommes Ulfeng
05-03-2009, 06:27 AM
A few more details on the new Vegas Pro 9
http://www.jetdv.com/tts/TTS07-01.pdf
Seems to me that a good ui just gets better, less scripting more timesaving features :)

Thommes Ulfeng, Norway.

Roberto Lequeux
05-03-2009, 08:19 PM
A few more details on the new Vegas Pro 9
http://www.jetdv.com/tts/TTS07-01.pdf
Seems to me that a good ui just gets better, less scripting more timesaving features :)

Thommes Ulfeng, Norway.

Very cool! The audio just got so much better with no need to uncheck quantize to frames for audio trimming which often gets me to mes up a video clip. Not sure how much better the 16-bit peaks will be but if that is what Sound Forge uses then it will be a very welcome addition as well.

I am getting worried sick about speed and a good EDL workflow... native support is useless for bigger projects if we can't work with the heavy files and if we won't be able to jump over to finishing programs like Scratch... it would hurt SO bad if we got so very close yet so far away. Of course being able to work with 1k previews will be great for so many projects, but we need 1080 to make it a pro NLE... and I would want to punt a little puppy into orbit if I have to end up learning something like FC and say goodbye to the Vegas GUI and audio workflow.

Hugh Scully
05-04-2009, 12:09 PM
I am getting worried sick about speed and a good EDL workflow... native support is useless for bigger projects if we can't work with the heavy files and if we won't be able to jump over to finishing programs like Scratch... it would hurt SO bad if we got so very close yet so far away. Of course being able to work with 1k previews will be great for so many projects, but we need 1080 to make it a pro NLE... and I would want to punt a little puppy into orbit if I have to end up learning something like FC and say goodbye to the Vegas GUI and audio workflow.

I don't know if I'm ready to punt a puppy (yet!) but I share your concern.

I went for the upgrade to 9.0 so I will see how this shakes out. I haven't purchased my new machine pending more research on the workflow. You probably know this Roberto, but I clipped this from the Vegas 8 help files:

"Vegas EDLs are not the same as those used in traditional linear editing suites and are not intended as a project interchange for other editing applications. "

It would be a huge drag if we were unable to work with serious tools such as Assimilate's Scratch. I have not used the EDL's generated from Vegas and haven't read anything about improvements to indicate a solution to your stated concern. It doesn't make sense that they don't comply to a conventional standard. I want to stick with Vegas if I can but I don't want to be incapacitated either.

Roberto Lequeux
05-04-2009, 06:41 PM
No, I actually didn't know that as I haven't tried exporting an EDL from Vegas yet. That is quite ridiculous... we have a new satellite my friends... it's name is Fido.

Would there even be an option for working with Vegas at all if you need to finish at a post house? I guess the only option is to render your own color corrected project and have them work on that... and bring your work station with you in case you want to let your colorist be creative...!!?! Which would also take longer, making it more expensive..


quite a moronic thing unless EDL creation is far more complex than what I assume... ? I mean... are EDLs that tricky? Do they cost a lot of money to develop? Maybe if this happened Vegas would finally take off! Then the funding for R&D would be there...

donatello b
05-04-2009, 07:01 PM
i know Vegas 7 EDL = 2 video .. 2 audio ... simple dissolves (for lengths use Avids standard), no CC , NO FX's , no cropping = keep it SIMPLE will open in Avid media composer ... EDL does not work Avid to Vegas ...
i haven't tried V8 to Avid ....

Roberto Lequeux
05-04-2009, 07:07 PM
Unfortunately I have no interest in going to Avid. Even so something like crops are a must for an EDL. The rest could be perfectly tolerable.

It is such a shame that a product so loved like Vegas won't be pushed into the big leagues... their audio is just blissful... a little speed, and a simple EDL for finishing programs is ALL that is missing.

It does seem that they are narrowing the gap though... right? But even so, in my non-connoisseur impression, it would seem that they are doing so at a rate that would put V11 or V12 for really into the thick of the battle.

Eki Halkka
05-05-2009, 03:05 AM
Would there even be an option for working with Vegas at all if you need to finish at a post house?

There's been free Vegas scripts for EDL export "all along". Can't remember if the one i've used came bundled or not - it exports CMX 3600 EDL of one video and audio track - which is all i've ever needed so far, so i haven't looked for a better script... my guess is there's more comprehensive ones out there.

Roberto Lequeux
05-05-2009, 04:23 AM
Well that is all you would need! R u serious? That is great!

I don't need my colorist to worry about the audio and I can render a single track so he has all the work that has been done to date in there in a minute. Editing should be easy to keep in one track... although I often use many tracks it should help me with my "problem". I often get ahead of myself and start grading, doing sound design, VFXs, titles, etc... where I should be concentrating on the shot selection and timing! :) So that should do the trick! I can work it down to one track easily if I do digress.

Can it carry any color grading info? I guess that would be much more complicated correct?

Where do I find this?

Eki Halkka
05-05-2009, 05:11 AM
Can it carry any color grading info? I guess that would be much more complicated correct?

EDL's don't carry that info, but you can also export in XML, which is a "human readable" file that should have all effects etc. info embedded - not sure how well it will translate to other software though, never used it. Same goes with AAF files (not human readable though).


Where do I find this?

The EDL export script is in Tools > Scripting dropdown menu. Based on a quick web search, it seems to come with the software.

Eki Halkka
05-05-2009, 05:53 AM
Same goes with AAF files (not human readable though).

Whaddyaknow - i tried importing an AAF file from Vegas to After Effects, and it worked (albeit with some error messages and missing effects). Pretty kewl, actually.

donatello b
05-05-2009, 09:14 AM
" a simple EDL for finishing programs is ALL that is missing"

a EDL is SIMPLE ... a EDL goes back to late ? 70's .. it was created for TAPED based editing ... very simple 1 video track and 1/2 audio tracks ..that's it .. no CC , no cropping ... simple tape based transitions ....
today you have AAF ( EDL on steroids ) still simple compared to what your Editing program and do ...and XML which can do more then EDL/AAF ....

going back to it's beginning Vegas was never intended to be a OFFLINE editor .. it was designed so you could complete your project using Vegas/SF/Acid & now DVDa ...
when sony bought it - sony already had a a high end editor ( which i think they have dropped) ....

Roberto Lequeux
05-05-2009, 01:19 PM
" a simple EDL for finishing programs is ALL that is missing"

a EDL is SIMPLE ... a EDL goes back to late ? 70's .. it was created for TAPED based editing ... very simple 1 video track and 1/2 audio tracks ..that's it .. no CC , no cropping ... simple tape based transitions ....
today you have AAF ( EDL on steroids ) still simple compared to what your Editing program and do ...and XML which can do more then EDL/AAF ....

going back to it's beginning Vegas was never intended to be a OFFLINE editor .. it was designed so you could complete your project using Vegas/SF/Acid & now DVDa ...
when sony bought it - sony already had a a high end editor ( which i think they have dropped) ....

I just called Sony and they don't even know what Scratch is. Thought they were "supposed" to.

So can Vegas put out an AAF readable by Scratch? I am just trying to get to the bottom of this and find out if I can edit a feature on V9, then have a colorist grade it for m without having to spend some of my money on him trying to get the thing to work.

:huh:

Eki Halkka
05-05-2009, 02:28 PM
So can Vegas put out an AAF readable by Scratch?

If Scratch imports AAF, it's pretty likely.

As soon as Vegas 9 is released, which is a matter of days, i'll try to remember make a test: do a few edits with Red footage that's commonly available/downloadable, and export an AAF. Anyone who has an access to a scratch system can then try it out.

Roberto Lequeux
05-05-2009, 05:25 PM
If Scratch imports AAF, it's pretty likely.

As soon as Vegas 9 is released, which is a matter of days, i'll try to remember make a test: do a few edits with Red footage that's commonly available/downloadable, and export an AAF. Anyone who has an access to a scratch system can then try it out.

I can put in a call to the post house I am probably going to use and ask them directly. Please don't forget to do this!

Eki Halkka
05-06-2009, 01:13 AM
I can put in a call to the post house I am probably going to use and ask them directly. Please don't forget to do this!

Okay ;-)

Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso
05-10-2009, 06:10 AM
Vegas EDLs do not work, it doesnt read the quicktime timecode.

Vegas AAF loads perfectly in After Effects.

I dont think that Scratch can open AAF files.

Roberto Lequeux
05-10-2009, 06:15 AM
Vegas AAF load perfectly in After Effects.

Duuude! :happyhappy:

So you just select a section of the timeline, go to render and select an AFF? Never done this.

Then import the AFF in AE? Bang!? Nothing to it?

I guess from AE you would render out uncompressed QT? Something else? What would be best?

Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso
05-10-2009, 08:06 AM
If vegas can output 10bits QTs, AVIs, and DPX, i dont see the need of using AE. I often do the color grading inside VEgas, even when i have a Scratch Suit just on the left screen. I like to color grade at the same time im editing, so id rather finish the project inside Vegas than dealing with conforming and so on.

BTW the new video plugins are awesome.

Yes, going from Vegas to After Effects is as easy as that. No missmatches at all.

Roberto Lequeux
05-10-2009, 08:26 AM
Duuuuuude!!! http://www.reduser.net/forum/images/smilies/emote_happyhappy.gif

No I am talking about masking, rotoscoping, tracking and other basic VFX stuff that I want to do in AE.

One negative I have about Vegas is not being able to make the edges disappear when I rotoscope something.

None of the grading will be done in AE though. I will grade myself in Vegas for decisions and then have a post house re-create my grade. However I am exited to see what .r3d grading with proper monitoring looks like out of Vegas!

M Most
05-10-2009, 10:20 AM
Duuuuuude!!! [IMG]
None of the grading will be done in AE though. I will grade myself in Vegas for decisions and then have a post house re-create my grade. However I am exited to see what .r3d grading with proper monitoring looks like out of Vegas!

You REALLY need to make sure that you can generate, at the very least, an EDL in Vegas that other programs can understand before committing to it on a project such as the one you're talking about.

Roberto Lequeux
05-10-2009, 09:15 PM
Most definitely Most. :)

I am going to do some research on AFFs out of V9 which comes out tomorrow. I am not locked in, just bored and over-exited. :beer:

I was going to ask you or Chip to check if Scratch would read one.

M Most
05-10-2009, 10:37 PM
Most definitely Most. :)

I am going to do some research on AFFs out of V9 which comes out tomorrow. I am not locked in, just bored and over-exited. :beer:

I was going to ask you or Chip to check if Scratch would read one.

No, Scratch does not import AAF files.

jake blackstone
05-10-2009, 10:55 PM
I just called Sony and they don't even know what Scratch is. Thought they were "supposed" to.

So can Vegas put out an AAF readable by Scratch? I am just trying to get to the bottom of this and find out if I can edit a feature on V9, then have a colorist grade it for m without having to spend some of my money on him trying to get the thing to work.

:huh:
I guess Scratch isn't the only thing they haven't heard. Apparently, CMX 3600 is another:)

Peter Moretti
05-10-2009, 11:17 PM
If vegas can output 10bits QTs, AVIs, and DPX, i dont see the need of using AE. I often do the color grading inside VEgas, even when i have a Scratch Suit just on the left screen. I like to color grade at the same time im editing, so id rather finish the project inside Vegas than dealing with conforming and so on. ...I guess what I'm failing to understand is if Vegas can render to very high quality 4:4:4, why bother conforming to bring footage into SCRATCH?

Why not just bring the Vegas render into SCRATCH?

I guess what I'm also failing to understand is if there is any advantage to using Vegas over CS4? I imagine Vegas has better audio, but CS4 should be considerably faster.

Roberto Lequeux
05-11-2009, 12:06 AM
Most can answer the 4:4:4 render into Scratch much better than I could. But Vegas over CS4 is because if Vegas can handle 4:4:4 RBG 1080p then it is fast enough to use with a Red Rocket, and that is all I need. Also, I am used to it so I can hit the ground running.

In MY opinion Adobe has a pole up their behinds when it comes to GUIs. I've never used Premiere but I hear its interface is much like PS and AE. Once you know it it is great, though you have to do a few extra steps for some things than you would in Vegas. So I hear. But the real reason for me, is that I don't want to be working on the NLE, I want to work on the movie. For me, that means tying to find a way to work in Vegas if possible, otherwise FC, maaaaaaaybe Avid, no other options. Or finding a way to afford an Editor long enough to have him work on a final cut for the movie so I don't have to re-create a 96min timeline in order to pick up where he walked off. That would mean I can have him edit the movie, with me in the room once he's had a real chance to show me what he thinks is the best cut, and then render out the whole thing into a nice 1080p for me to use while working on the dialogue, sound design, color decisions, VFX and score.

I hope there is a good way for FC to feed an EDL to V9... I would think that is far more likely than finding a way to work with Scratch.

In the coming weeks I'll be looking into the compatibility between Vegas FC and Scratch... I just hope I can find a way to work on all three.

jake blackstone
05-11-2009, 04:05 AM
EDL's don't carry that info, but you can also export in XML, which is a "human readable" file that should have all effects etc. info embedded - not sure how well it will translate to other software though, never used it. Same goes with AAF files (not human readable though).

On the contrary, EDL can carry the color information, if it also contain an ASC CDL. Pretty much every color grading software, that is less than 2 years old can read it.

jake blackstone
05-11-2009, 04:22 AM
I guess what I'm failing to understand is if Vegas can render to very high quality 4:4:4, why bother conforming to bring footage into SCRATCH?

Why not just bring the Vegas render into SCRATCH?


There would be couple of reasons not to do that. First, why would you want to waste considerable time rendering something, when Scratch can read R3D files directly and can conform the timeline from the EDL. This way you're not stuck with some questionable color grading decisions of the editor and would be free to use the full range of the original R3D files. And don't forget, colorist would have to spend time "notching" your rendered timeline, before he can start the grade, which can be very time consuming, as well as, don't forget, costly:)

Eki Halkka
05-11-2009, 07:46 AM
On the contrary, EDL can carry the color information, if it also contain an ASC CDL. Pretty much every color grading software, that is less than 2 years old can read it.

Thanks for the info - my knowledge on the subject is certainly dated.

On a vast majority of stuff that runs through my hands nowadays, i do grading etc. myself, either on Vegas or AE, and deliver the final master. I haven't really used/needed EDL:s much in years. When i've worked on stuff that ends up being graded elsewhere, it's usually been just image sequences back and forth, no EDL info. And as said, in the occasional cases where i've needed to export an EDL from Vegas, the simple one track CMX 3600 edl that's supported by the included script has been enough.

Roberto Lequeux
05-11-2009, 07:50 AM
I assume DMC3600 is the script mentioned before?

Has anyone downloaded V9 yet? Anyone care to test out .r3d's and post back?

Eki Halkka
05-11-2009, 10:55 AM
I assume DMC3600 is the script mentioned before?

Yep.


Has anyone downloaded V9 yet? Anyone care to test out .r3d's and post back?

I just installed Vegas 9 on my XP64 machine - the link for 64bit Vegas on Sony web site points to 32bit installer (DOH!) so i only have tried that so far.

On the first run, Vegas 9 seemed a little buggy - menus etc. displayed weirdly, effects buttons didn't work etc. Closing and reopening Vegas seemed to fix that. The layout and color scheme have changed but i quickly revert to my preferred layout...

My machine is a 8 core E5345 Xeon running at 2,33Ghz, with 8GB ram and Geforce GTX 285 display card. I have two 7200 rpm hard drives as a 0-raid (right now the raid is uncomfortably full, so it's a bit slow and might be my bottleneck).

The .r3d performance is "usable". I get real time 25fps playback from 3K r3d files at 940*540 preview size and smaller, even with primary and secondary color correction running. 4K r3d files play back at around 20 fps at that size. 2K preview is around 10 fps. 4K is... well, slow.

Adjusting the clip properties (color etc.) doesn't seem to slow things down - there's more or less the same settings available as with redcine (curves are replaced with sliders that have similar functions).

The processors are running at around 30% usage, so it seems vegas can't take full advantage of all 8 cores - the multiprocessor setting in the preferences tops at 4 processors. If it did, even 2K probably would be realtime. It will be interesting to hear how newer i7 processor machines work with r3d files - my workstation is a bit old after all... also, the 64bit version would possibly be better - i'll report more on that when it's actually available for download.

Next, i'll try to install to my laptop and see how it performs...

Brian Kaz
05-11-2009, 11:00 AM
Playing with the 64bit Demo now. The editing performance is impressive, considering. I have a 4k timeline going with 2 R3D tracks on top of each other on an overlay along with color correction, curves, glow, defocus & glint FX plus a dissolve into another R3D file and it's playing near real-time on "Good" preview(even on the full screen). I expected MAJOR stuttering, but did not get it.

Rendering to a 1080p mp4 is somewhat slow. A one minute sequence with the aformentioned FX etc is roughly 35 minutes on an i7 920 with 12mb ram. I also noticed that while it's using all 8 cores, it's not maxing them out.

Also, to access metadata you have to select the clip in the project manager and set "Final file properties".

I'll need more time with 9 before I comment on final encode quality, but I'm happy with it so far. Hell, it's lightyears beyond anything I've used in regards to working with Red footage.

Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso
05-11-2009, 11:05 AM
Vegas 9 demo is out and no one told me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Eki Halkka
05-11-2009, 11:07 AM
Playing with the 64bit Demo now.

They fixed the link - cool, that was fast... downloading now ,-)


i7 920 with 12mb ram.

Darn, it looks like i need a new machine, again ;-)

Joel Kaye
05-11-2009, 11:14 AM
I expected MAJOR stuttering, but did not get it.

Considering I'm getting major stuttering in FCP right now after I did a Log and Transfer with "native" as the chosen codec and waiting (and waiting) for the transcode forever I'd have to say Sony has the edge.

Eki Halkka
05-11-2009, 11:15 AM
Next, i'll try to install to my laptop and see how it performs...

4K timeline, quarter quality draft (512*288) preview works in real time on my three year old laptop. Damn, it's plenty good enough for offline editing me sez, esp. when you can always check the full rez for focus etc., even if it's not in real time.

Cool!

PS. on this machine, no hiccups with the install - everything worked OK right out the box.

Eki Halkka
05-11-2009, 11:22 AM
Also, to access metadata you have to select the clip in the project manager and set "Final file properties".

That be "File format properties".

Brian Kaz
05-11-2009, 11:24 AM
4K timeline, quarter quality draft (512*288) preview works in real time on my three year old laptop. Damn, it's plenty good enough for offline editing me sez, esp. when you can always check the full rez for focus etc., even if it's not in real time.

Cool!

PS. on this machine, no hiccups with the install - everything worked OK right out the box.

This is great news. Looks like I'm making a purchase soon.

By the way, my 1080p mp4 came out excellent. My next stress test will be matte/compositing with native Red footage. This is where I sometimes have stability issues with Vegas. I'll do everything I can to crash this program. Hope it holds up.



That be "File format properties".
Correct. Sorry, I was rendering at the time and couldn't double check that.

Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso
05-11-2009, 11:42 AM
Color space setting doesnt seem to work (always 709, bad). ANd crashes the program.

Id like to know what resampling filter VEgas is using.

Brian Kaz
05-11-2009, 12:15 PM
Color space setting doesnt seem to work (always 709, bad). ANd crashes the program.

Id like to know what resampling filter VEgas is using.

You're right, Mac. Though I'm not getting any crashes. Gamma seems unaffected. I guess an email to their support is due.

Brian Kaz
05-11-2009, 12:20 PM
UPDATE

Colorspace DOES work. I changed the pixel format in the project properties to 32bit floating point FULL RANGE and everything is fine.

Brian Kaz
05-11-2009, 12:24 PM
UPDATE #2

Setting to Full Range fixes colorspace but apparently disables Gamma. ???

Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso
05-11-2009, 12:36 PM
Im getting some properties changes, but it crashes 90% of the time. Fortunately, VEgas creates a setting file (you can open it with wordpad) just in the same folder the r3d is with all the settings of the file. So when it loads again the change has been made.

It seems i cannot copy settings from one clip to another (this is bad), but it might be possible to copy the SfDecProp somehow to all the folders...

Brian Kaz
05-11-2009, 12:40 PM
Here's one for you: In full range mode, my audio goes slighly off sync.
Still no crashes for me.

Brian Kaz
05-11-2009, 12:45 PM
It seems i cannot copy settings from one clip to another (this is bad), but it might be possible to copy the SfDecProp somehow to all the folders...

Is this what you're looking to do? From the manual:

Modifying properties for multiple files:
When multiple files are selected, check boxes appear for slider settings that do not match across all selected files. Select the check box to apply to chosen value to all selected files.

If values already match for a slider setting, no check box is displayed, and any changes made to the setting are applied to all selected files.

If values do not match for a drop-down setting, the setting is blank. If you choose a value for a blank drop-down setting, that value is applied to all selected files.

Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso
05-11-2009, 01:03 PM
Cool. Still a lot of crashes.
Settings in Redcine do not match the ones in VEgas. Ie: contrast at 100 is not the same.

Jeremiah McLamb
05-11-2009, 01:13 PM
i'm getting a lot of crashes too...and also no change to the image when i change from 709 to redspace on either gamma or color...doesn't matter 8-bit or 32bit float...

jeremiah

Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso
05-11-2009, 01:27 PM
Any ideas about what level of quality and debayering is being used on preview and renders?

At best quality 1080p im getting much faster renders than in Redcine.

Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso
05-11-2009, 01:32 PM
Wow, impressive how well imports image secuences!

Roberto Lequeux
05-11-2009, 01:39 PM
Whoa! This thread is going a thousand miles an hour! :happyhappy:
I am not messing with it yet. I need to focus on a script.


Playing with the 64bit Demo now. The editing performance is impressive, considering. I have a 4k timeline going with 2 R3D tracks on top of each other on an overlay along with color correction, curves, glow, defocus & glint FX plus a dissolve into another R3D file and it's playing near real-time on "Good" preview(even on the full screen). I expected MAJOR stuttering, but did not get it.

Are you F@#ING S#&TTING me?! :head_explode:

What bit-depth and so on? Tell me everything I need to know about this. Am I dreaming? Are you saying you can do all that stuff with 4k files and preview at 1920x1080 "Good" preview?!!!?? :willy_nilly:

Kaz, is your 920 at stock 2.66GHz?!?!

Brian Kaz
05-11-2009, 02:00 PM
Nothing that incredible, Roberto. This is based on a 1k preview. I assume that when I select the full screen preview, it's showing 1k filling a 1920x1080 screen (it does look soft). You lose a couple more fps with 32bit Full (I was on 8bit when I first wrote).
I'll tell you this: My experience with premiere was fine until you slapped any kind of effect onto the footage, then it was stutter city. And forget layering 2 tracks over each other. Not so with Vegas. VERY usable. And once I go down to 512 rez in Vegas, I can pretty much have anything applied to my clip and it'll play real-time.

My 920 is at stock speed.

Roberto Lequeux
05-11-2009, 02:07 PM
Oh... well that makes more sense now. I was ready to jump off a building!

Well it is insane that you can play with all that stuff on at lower resolutions while still having to debayer! Sounds like Red Code 36 is completely workable in Vegas!! I am a little dissapointed that you have sliders as opposed to curves on the debayer settings... Can you see the effect of the settings RT?

If you are running the 920 at stock 2.66 that means you will get a MINIMUM of a 35% boost in everything CPU based with a little overclocking. Up to 42% easy... more might be a little tricky.

I bet once you preview at 2k you'll start to see your grading to have an effect on the footage.

One last thing Kaz, could you please render a 4:4:4 RGB and try applying all sorts of stuff to that at 1080 preview? That would be a good test to estimate what RedRocket might do, right?

Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso
05-11-2009, 02:27 PM
"Factory default" defaults to a 6500K. Wrong!

Troy Smith
05-11-2009, 02:40 PM
Kaz, can vegas 9 output h.264 or mpeg2 Bluray files?

Eki Halkka
05-11-2009, 02:41 PM
Well it is insane that you can play with all that stuff on at lower resolutions while still having to debayer! Sounds like Red Code 36 is completely workable in Vegas!! I am a little dissapointed that you have sliders as opposed to curves on the debayer settings... Can you see the effect of the settings RT?

Yep - it's usable even on a lower spec machine.

The settings update in RT, even while playing back the footage, which is kewl.


One last thing Kaz, could you please render a 4:4:4 RGB and try applying all sorts of stuff to that at 1080 preview? That would be a good test to estimate what RedRocket might do, right?

1080p 4:4:4 RGB needs a pretty damn fast HD array, the data rate is around 100-200 MB/sec depending on bit depth - on an average system, the file will not play any better than the r3d, probably much worse.

Eki Halkka
05-11-2009, 02:43 PM
Kaz, can vegas 9 output h.264 or mpeg2 Bluray files?

Yep - it even comes bundled with a pretty good bluray / DVD authoring software, DVD architect.

Troy Smith
05-11-2009, 02:49 PM
Nice, so I take it, the bluray output quality beats cs4? is it mainconept or something else i hope? cs4 uses mainconcept

Eki Halkka
05-11-2009, 03:03 PM
Nice, so I take it, the bluray output quality beats cs4? is it mainconept or something else i hope? cs4 uses mainconcept

Haven't tried it - the mpeg2 is Main Concept, AVC looks like it's Sony proprietary. As far as the Main Concept mpeg2 files go, i haven't done Blurays as said, but HDV files have been pretty good.

Joyfool
05-11-2009, 03:34 PM
my experience thus far mirrors most: frequent crashes. Doesn't like color space changes. The sliders work in rt but color/gamma space does nothing (typically crashes the app). Playback seems faster than Adobe - not sure why since Adobe accesses redcode directly vs Vegas SDK implementation. Haven't been able to do much due to crashes.

Brian Kaz
05-11-2009, 03:48 PM
I'm surprised by all the people experiencing crashes. Been using it all day and haven't had an issue. I'm curious as to what OS you guys are using (I'm on Vista64).

Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso
05-11-2009, 03:49 PM
XP32 here. It crashes. BUt i love it.

Roberto Lequeux
05-11-2009, 03:51 PM
Q6600 @ 3.15GHz 4GB fast DDR2 XP-32bit
Quarter resolution "Good" I get about ~19-22fps
Add one or two effects to it and craps out...
Rendered an 11sec H.264 with quite 4-5 layers of grading in 22sec

It crashes! A lot. The preview goes black first (most times) so might be the GPU? I also had issues with RedCine and I think it might be the video card that isn't compatible. (GeForce 7950 GX2) Though it might be XP...?

I haven't tried messing with the color space.

Mark Holmes
05-11-2009, 03:55 PM
I'm surprised by all the people experiencing crashes. Been using it all day and haven't had an issue. I'm curious as to what OS you guys are using (I'm on Vista64).

Hey Kaz, I have also been pretty stable, but slow, as I'm still on a Core 2 Duo, but plan to build a new system to handle the RED from my coming Scarlet.

Since your system is stable, could you share exact specs of your system? Specifically, what motherboard, CPU, memory and video card you're running. Thanks so much!

Brian Kaz
05-11-2009, 04:09 PM
No problem, Mark. From my Newegg order...


Intel Core i7 920 Nehalem 2.66GHz LGA 1366 130W Quad-Core Processor

2 CORSAIR DOMINATOR 6GB (3 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Triple Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model TR3X6G1600C8D

ASUS P6T6 WS Revolution LGA 1366 Intel X58 ATX Intel Motherboard

BFG Tech BFGEGTX2801024OC2E GeForce GTX 280 1GB 512-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card

Mark Holmes
05-11-2009, 04:18 PM
Thanks Kaz!

Sorry, forgot to ask about storage. Are you using internal or external drives? RAID? What brands, etc.

Roberto Lequeux
05-11-2009, 04:21 PM
ASUS P6T6 WS Revolution LGA 1366 Intel X58 ATX Intel Motherboard

That is good to know. This board will let you set your 920 up to 3.8Ghz easy. Just get a new cooler and you are good to go. Then again your RAM might not keep up, but it should overclock a a good amount.

Thommes Ulfeng
05-11-2009, 04:31 PM
Just want to say thank you to all for your inputs, this is very interesting and encouraging reading :)

Thommes Ulfeng

Brian Kaz
05-11-2009, 04:37 PM
Mark, currently I'm using a velociraptor for boot and a 2tb internal raid 0 for editing (using 2 seagate drives).

Roberto, when I first put together the system I played around with some low level OC configurations and there was already some instability, so I nixed it. I'm moving to a Dual i7 Xeon setup soon anyway, so I'm not too worried about it.

Joyfool
05-11-2009, 04:40 PM
wow. mixing media on the same timeline w/ rt playback w/o rendering. Put R3D along with ProRes422 without problems. pretty cool.

Anybody get the gamma and color space setting to work?

jbeale
05-11-2009, 07:16 PM
the gamma setting works, at least inasmuch as things certainly change in the preview when I change it. Color space doesn't do anything obvious.

Brian Kaz
05-11-2009, 08:11 PM
Colorspace only works in 32bit floating point FULL RANGE. Also, if you're switching between 8bit and 32 bit full, you have to set the 32bit compositing gamma to 2.222(video) to match it. Otherwise your video displays too dark.

Roberto Lequeux
05-11-2009, 10:11 PM
Kaz, it must have been your RAM then. Based on several dozen people over at an overclocking forum the 920 and P6T can go up to 4GHz quite often, 3.8 being average and 3.6 the minimum.

If you go to dua l Xeon please let us know what Vegas does with the CPUS!

Why is it that when I set it to 32-bit float a minute change in brightness or contrast moved everything in huge increments? EDIT: Oh, it looks like setting the gamma to 2.22 fixes that. Can someone explain how these thigs work and what they are doing? I really think I should understand what is going on below the hood.

Steven-Marc C.
05-12-2009, 02:23 AM
I have been testing V9 on my MBP (XP32) and it seems to work fine, with results similar as those posted above. No crashes thus far. It is really cool to be able to edit R3D directly and have all the debayer settings, effects applied, etc. play back in real time (albeit at a lower resolution) without any stuttering or slowing down of the program!

Joyfool
05-12-2009, 02:30 AM
fyi: noticed that vegas90.exe still runs as a process in task manager after a crash. I had 3 running at once from subsequent crashes...

Roberto Lequeux
05-12-2009, 02:43 AM
Could everyone let us know what video card you are using if you are getting crashes, please. It might be the GPUs... ?

Nir Shelter
05-12-2009, 03:25 AM
Why is it that when I set it to 32-bit float a minute change in brightness or contrast moved everything in huge increments? EDIT: Oh, it looks like setting the gamma to 2.22 fixes that. Can someone explain how these thigs work and what they are doing? I really think I should understand what is going on below the hood.

It sounds to me that it is because in 32bit float the gamma curve is uncorrected. This means that the further rite on the scale (voltage) the value the more effect (brighter) the value has, as the graph curves up. Small change in value big change in brightness.
Once you put a 2.2 gamma correction on the footage the effect contrasted the uncorrected up curve and created a linear graph. This means that the changes in values are in proportion to the degree of brightness on the graph. This is mainly because all video needs to be backwards compatible to the old tube monitors that have a non linear "up wards" curve.

Not sure I explained it clear enough but hope I helped.

Roberto Lequeux
05-12-2009, 03:44 AM
I didn't get all of it, what I did get satisfied me. More than I need to know. Thank you for taking the time to explain.

Here is a little H.264 I was playing with, thanks Peter M. for uploading the RC36 4k .r3d's!

Vegas 9 - Pool Table (http://www.zumovalusa.com/DELETE/Vegas9_Peter_Pool_Table.mp4)
(4.8MB ; H.264 @ 6/3.5 ; 11sec of footage)

I was having a little trouble with getting rid of some of the blue spill on some of the billiard balls. I think I had a string of 10 effects and man, I love how I can't notice the degradation. I added a curve, three balances for highs mids and lows, saturation (I think), brightness and contrast, unsharp and two secondary correctors for the blue. This was graded on a consumer LCD, but if you have any tips for getting a better quality h.264 please share.

I think it crashes when I try to scrub or jump around in the timeline a lot. Also when I jump from a 4k to a 3k... not too happy about that. But if I take it slow it seems more stable.

Richard Andrewski
05-12-2009, 05:17 AM
Running here with 2K files (I don't have any 4K files at the moment) super well on Vegas 9.

Machines specs: Core I7 920 running OC'd at 3.2ghz, 12GB RAM, Leadtek GTX 285 video card, 1 TB 3 Drive Raid 0 array, 2 monitors (one running 30" 1920 x 1200 the other a 47" 1920 x 1080 as a preview monitor.

Triple boot system Win 64, Vista 64 ultimate, Window 7 64 bit RC 1.

Vegas 9 runs well on both Windows 7 and Vista but isn't supported on Win64 so no need to even install there. I was even able to call up a project file I had problems with AVCHD on Vegas 8.1 with losing the audio stream which was originally created in 8.0c and still works well there. Works fine with 9.0 so one bug fixed for me.

I'll try it out to see how rendering goes in various modes.

Roberto Lequeux
05-12-2009, 05:27 AM
Richard, I'd love to hear how 4k works on your rig.

Here is Peter M's work flow thread on Scarlet user if you don't have your camera with you.
On Post #5 you will find some 4k clips if you don't mind downloading one or two:

http://www.scarletuser.com/showthread.php?t=559

Eki Halkka
05-12-2009, 05:49 AM
Vegas 9 runs well on both Windows 7 and Vista but isn't supported on Win64 so no need to even install there.

There's a 64 bit version available too...

****

Vegas 9 has been relatively stable on my machines here at home - but not so on my third machine, an older dual xeon workstation i have at our studio.

We had a color correction session for a commercial that was shot on RED, and i took the risk and tried the Vegas9 r3d workflow in actual production... there were constant crashes etc. hiccups through out the session - luckily the photographer that sat with me there had good nerves ;-)

It might be that it has something to do with the Blackmagic card i have there (or not, who knows...). Anyway, it was very unreliable on that machine...

Richard Andrewski
05-12-2009, 05:54 AM
I am running the 64 bit version of Vegas 9 but it doesn't support Win XP 64, only Vista 64 or Windows 7 64.

Anyway, here's an update. I went back to Red Cine to find some 4K files and the file I was looking at was 4K. For some reason Vegas reports it as a 2K (2048 x 1024) file when you look at the properties for the clip. So it appears to be working super smooth on a 4K file but its reporting it as a 2K for some reason unless I'm missing something in Vegas or a setup issue.

By the way REDCine doesn't work on Windows 7 64 bit, at least not for me. Works fine on Vista 64 and Win XP 64 though. In case someone wants to look at that and see what might be the problem. On my 1920 x 1200 display, just looks like the display is out of sync the moment you enter REDCine (latest version) and everything garbled looking. Have to use task manager to kill it.

Roberto Lequeux
05-12-2009, 06:21 AM
So how smooth does your 4k plays at 2k/Half in "Good" preview? What sort of fps do you get in Vista and W7? I am still in XP land so I'll likely jump straight to W7 myself.

BTW, I get butter 24fps preview on 2k files played at half Good. And I even get that with a secondary on the table cloth.

You can really do a lot with older computers. Can't wait to build a new one though.

Richard Andrewski
05-12-2009, 06:51 AM
Using the Preview Auto setting, it looks pretty much like 24FPS to me and pretty smooth even at 4K. But I haven't added anything yet but some minor color correction. I wish I had a green screen clip to try out some compositing.

Roberto Lequeux
05-12-2009, 07:01 AM
I'm not sure what happens when you set the preview to Auto you wouldn't know if it is soft due to playback or if the shot has an issue. Of course you must obviously know all of this Richard. Also, you might know that at the bottom of the preview you have on the left the file size and to the right the preview screen size and the playback fps you are getting which updates on the fly.

Sorry to bug, but if you have a second I'd really appreciate a few more i7 benchmarks. And you have yours at 3.2 which is the top Xeon speed.

Can't wait to hear about dual Xeons!

Richard Andrewski
05-12-2009, 07:19 AM
With the display at 632 x 355 x 32 bit for preview screen size and average 23 FPS is what it shows. When I turn on the external or 2nd monitor for preview it slows to 20 FPS.

When I turn the project back to 8 bits, its consistently at 23.976 FPS without budging until you add the external preview monitor again then drops to 20 FPS.

Roberto Lequeux
05-12-2009, 08:29 AM
Are you set up single screen? I'd say you would most certainly get better numbers if you didn't have second screen set up as an external making Vegas have to create a 632 x 355 and and the full one.

Brian Kaz
05-12-2009, 08:30 AM
Could someone using the 64bit version do me a small favor? Render a .wmv with audio and see if it has sound. It doesn't matter what audio format I choose for it, the rendered file has missing audio. When I go back to Vegas 8 - no problems.

Thanks.

donatello b
05-12-2009, 09:13 AM
i have Vista 64bit .. have both 32 & 64 bit versions of V9 installed ...
the 64bit V9 does not see/play WMV files .. V9 32bit version does see/play them and when i render out to DV 720x480 i do have audio ....

also note that neither version currently can see/play cineform clips on my Vista 64bit ?
i know that V8.1 64bit cannot see/play cineform clips ..V8 32bit can play cineform.

Brian Kaz
05-12-2009, 09:28 AM
Thanks, Donatello.
I'll email their tech people. Guess I'll have to look forward to 9.0b

Richard Andrewski
05-12-2009, 10:51 AM
Dual screen nvidia. On the other issue with WMV or Cineform, those are codec issues and I don't think its necessarily Sony that has to solve that, especially on the Cineform issue.

Roberto Lequeux
05-12-2009, 11:35 AM
Oh, lookie!

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=30269

We arrived!

Eki Halkka
05-12-2009, 01:20 PM
I am running the 64 bit version of Vegas 9 but it doesn't support Win XP 64, only Vista 64 or Windows 7 64.

I have both the 32 bit and 64 bit versions installed on my WinXP 64 machine - both work fine.

Actually, the 64 bit Vegas version on my WinXP 64 seems to be more stable than 32 bit Vegas on 32 bit XP Pro on my old workstation.

Roberto Lequeux
05-12-2009, 01:37 PM
I have both the 32 bit and 64 bit versions installed on my WinXP 64 machine - both work fine.

Actually, the 64 bit Vegas version on my WinXP 64 seems to be more stable than 32 bit Vegas on 32 bit XP Pro on my old workstation.

I started a stability thread in the new Vegas Workflow section.

I would really appreciate it if we you guys would poat all of the stability information in a dedicated thread! You figuring out stuff that I'll likely have to figure out myself very soon and it would be awesome if I could go to a dedicated thread instead of going though one incredibly long thread for everything V9 related like we are doing now.

Jarred opened up a whole section for us, so I say we take advantage of it!

>> VEGAS WORKFLOW SECTION (http://www.reduser.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=52) <<

RRafael
05-21-2009, 06:36 PM
Im planiing run vegas in Vista x64 with I/O Xena 2ke? im monitoring in HDlink Pro HDSL (premiere cs4.01 trial for now) , anyone has this config???