Speechless...

[Dan Finlayson]

I guess everyone is as speechless as I am...

10mbit/s??????? World just changed.

[Stephen Gentle]

I hope they make a Blu-Ray version - 5 hours of 4K on a single layer disk sounds pretty good to me!

[Stephen Lovett]

I'm still trying to figure out how in the world that could be the case.

But these guys stand and deliver.

Always.

The footage looked amazing.

The lenses blew away the Cooke's and MP's

Lingerie models, and Tiramisu.

God I love this country

[Roberto Lequeux]

I'm still trying to figure out how in the world that could be the case.

But these guys stand and deliver.

Always.

The footage looked amazing.

The lenses blew away the Cooke's and MP's

Lingerie models, and Tiramisu.

God I love this country

HAhaha...

So how did you see the lens comparison? Where they projected?

And back on topic: Has anyone noticed any compression on the Red Ray screening? So far that I've only seen one post hinting to a very small difference.

[Peter Mosiman]

HAhaha...

So how did you see the lens comparison? Where they projected?

And back on topic: Has anyone noticed any compression on the Red Ray screening? So far that I've only seen one post hinting to a very small difference.

Yeah, so I saw too, but thats 10mb/s to 800mb/s and Graeme pretty much stated that they were not quite done with it yet so they are still working out the small kinks. =]

[John Caballero]

Maybe we were fooled into believing until now about needing a lot mbit/s to run the show. Thats what happens when some people need a lot of numbers to make things sound way more important and "professional" than they really should be.

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

It's all in the codec. :)

[hmurchison]

How many people here saw the video with their own occular devices? I tend to be an optimist but 10Mbit per seconds is barely above the DVD rate. Color me impressed if they've delivered better than HD DVD/Blu-ray specs at under 15Mbps avg datarate.

Well..color me RED

[Stephen Lovett]

HAhaha...

So how did you see the lens comparison? Where they projected?

And back on topic: Has anyone noticed any compression on the Red Ray screening? So far that I've only seen one post hinting to a very small difference.

Yes Roberto,

There was a lens projector setup in the vendor room, so we saw A/B projections with "Competitive" lenses.

I've got a projector / big screen and blu-ray setup at home, and it looked every bit as good, and given the rear projection hotel room mess, that is incredibly impressive.

I know a lot of very smart people who work on compression algorithms, let me repeat, very very smart people, and this is giant step forward.

Steve

[Fredrik Harreschou]

Maybe we were fooled into believing until now about needing a lot mbit/s to run the show. Thats what happens when some people need a lot of numbers to make things sound way more important and "professional" than they really should be.

You have to start out with a lot of "lot of numbers" to make 10 mbit/s look real good. Garbage in/garbage out applies. I guess you cannot grade a compressed image like this very well. It's "just" for viewing...

Cheers,
Fredrik

[Jeremy Hughes]

Do I have to go scouring the "REDUSER NAB 2009 - The Official Thread" thread or what? Because all I hear is a bunch of talk of an amazing RED RAY demonstration all over the forum with no more information. 10mbs/s of 4k on a disc and it looked great? What happened last night?

[Dan Hudgins]

You have to start out with a lot of "lot of numbers" to make 10 mbit/s look real good. Garbage in/garbage out applies. I guess you cannot grade a compressed image like this very well. It's "just" for viewing...

Cheers,
Fredrik

This is very true, it is best to use lossless compresion of the sensor data so you can process it to bring out the details you want in the final image.

Compression tricks can then be used on the graded images at video gamma to reduce bandwidth.

If you try to pull up the dark areas of compressed images, even those in REDCODE, you may pick up more artifacts than you might with true RAW data.

Try saving images as JPG 10% filesize then grading them to extreem with gamma shifts and curves and matrix, you will probably see more issues with color tone banding, Posterization and histogram gaps than working with uncompressed TIF (48bpp) taken from RAW mode source.

With temporal compression you cannot extract individual frames that have image details at full resolution in the right places in the images over the whole frame area, the system may depend on motion blur of the moving images to hide some of the compression artifacts and resloution losses.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

3D wavelets perhaps?

I've always thought such a thing might be usable once processors catch up.

The changes from frame to frame are often even softer than from one corner to the other.

If you think of an image as a plane and an image series as a cube you could compress the voxel cube using wavelets. Save tons of data. However would also require some insanely fast decoding.

[Joe Kavanagh]

Do I have to go scouring the "REDUSER NAB 2009 - The Official Thread" thread or what? Because all I hear is a bunch of talk of an amazing RED RAY demonstration all over the forum with no more information. 10mbs/s of 4k on a disc and it looked great? What happened last night?

Last night during the presentation they showed two reels -- the IBC one from last year and a new one for this year. After both were played it was revealed that the first reel shown was uncompressed 4k (that would be this year's reel) and the one from last year was compressed using the new RedRAY codec to 10 mbit/sec (as a point of comparison un-compressed SD mini-DV is 25 mbit/sec).

Very few people in the room were able to notice the difference even after three showings and knowing which reel was which.

In terms of numbers:
(Red 400 is the new, 4k uncompressed reel. Red 300 is the compressed one)

Red 400 7:15 = 320GBs = 735.63 MB/Sec
Red 300 5:45 = 450MBs = 1.3 MB/Sec

Both for 4k, no noticed artifacts. Projected back to back on the same projector.

I can't vouch for the quality because I wasn't there but that's been the report so far.

-Joe Kavanagh

[Andrew Walker]

I got to see it last night and it was something to see. You could feel the winds of change sweeping over the industry. Sony is going to be crapping in their pants when they see this. Its a good thing that Red is doing this because I'm sure anyone else would be bought out to make sure that it would never see the light of day.

I saw all three screenings they did and it looked like flawless uncompressed 4K. I'm so happy to be part of this company.

Oh yeah...and the new Red Primes kicked ass. Might be selling my kidney to buy a set.

[c-well]

I got to see it last night and it was something to see. You could feel the winds of change sweeping over the industry. Sony is going to be crapping in their pants when they see this. Its a good thing that Red is doing this because I'm sure anyone else would be bought out to make sure that it would never see the light of day.

I saw all three screenings they did and it looked like flawless uncompressed 4K. I'm so happy to be part of this company.

Oh yeah...and the new Red Primes kicked ass. Might be selling my kidney to buy a set.

Andrew that's funny, but I can't wait to see the footage...
How long did it take you to get your Red One?

[Joyfool]

Ditto on the reel. Saw it twice last night and it really was fantastic. Also the RPP performed better than MPs and Cooke...undeniable. This industry is in for a big splash. All I need now is for Adobe to acquire Assimilate and package scratch along with CS4...

[Andrew Walker]

Andrew that's funny, but I can't wait to see the footage...
How long did it take you to get your Red One?

I think it was close to a year for me to get my camera. But I'm number 127, so the cameras weren't even out yet when I put down my deposit. That's why I had to wait so long. As I understand it you can get the camera much quicker now.

[Tom Lowe]

I got to see it last night and it was something to see. You could feel the winds of change sweeping over the industry. Sony is going to be crapping in their pants when they see this. Its a good thing that Red is doing this because I'm sure anyone else would be bought out to make sure that it would never see the light of day.

Good point. :thumbsup::sifone:

[Pawel Achtel]

...Might be selling my kidney to buy a set.

I'm hearing they are going pretty cheap as the result :rofl:

[Paul Leeming]

All I need now is for Adobe to acquire Assimilate and package scratch along with CS4...
Seconded!! :)

Paul

[Curran Giddens]

Oh yeah...and the new Red Primes kicked ass. Might be selling my kidney to buy a set.

How much are kidneys going for these days? I just put down a deposit for the RPP's even though I don't even have close to enough $....

[Dan Finlayson]

Hey Curran, just used your camera on set last weekend... thanks!

I might be contacting you about a rental this summer... and i referred you to another production.

I hope that helps you get your rpps!

[Curran Giddens]

Hey Curran, just used your camera on set last weekend... thanks!

I might be contacting you about a rental this summer... and i referred you to another production.

I hope that helps you get your rpps!

Thanks Dan!

I am going up to NH for a shoot this weekend but after that my schedule is wide open.

[Andrew Walker]

How much are kidneys going for these days? I just put down a deposit for the RPP's even though I don't even have close to enough $....

I think I may be able to get two sets of RPP for one kidney. You know, kidneys are the new gold standard. After seeing those lenses I'm getting ready to make my deposit...with money not kidneys.

[Raphael Varandas]

Very nice lenses....very sharp. I'm Speechless
At 5.6 even better...
Cooke S4i and Mp, sorry but i've already choose my next set.


By the way i forgot to answer ... RPP is talking with R1 via i connection?


Thanks Guys very nice party!!!

[Casey Green]

Will RED Ray be able to play other formats besides REDCODE?

[Stuart English]

Will RED Ray be able to play other formats besides REDCODE?

What do you have in mind Casey?

[Casey Green]

Will RED Ray be able to play other formats besides REDCODE?


What do you have in mind Casey?

Perhaps H.264 or ProRes... Or how about
DVD disc images?

It seems that if you have a media player that takes optical media as well as CF cards, it would be very convenient to be able to play other files from it for many reasons.

Why limit it? (save for licensing issues)

[Andrew Walker]

Perhaps H.264 or ProRes... Or how about
DVD disc images?

It seems that if you have a media player that takes optical media as well as CF cards, it would be very convenient to be able to play other files from it for many reasons.

Why limit it? (save for licensing issues)

This would be an interesting function to have on the Red Ray player. But as I understand it the really amazing thing is the Redcode for Red Ray. I could be wrong but when something plays back beautiful 4K images at 10mb/s it seems like that's the amazing side of it. I'm sure that the 4K interface is impressive for the player but getting 4K out has been done before...just not at 10mb/s. Still blows my mind just thinking about it.

But my point was that maybe some of those other formats might be toohigh of a data rate to playback on the Red Ray. But I'm sure that Red could make the player play almost any file it was handed.

[Bing Bailey]

RED Should be talking to APPLE, Netflix and others about licensing this stuff for HD delivery online. right now HD movies on line really suck. an APPLE TV or Netflix Device with that technology in it would help movie distribution online a great deal. if they can squash a 4k film into a 10mbit stream like that and have it look amazing what could they do for HD video on the internet.

[Bing Bailey]

maybe red should build and sell a playback only device and have the movie companies pay a fee to stream to it over the net. Like a RED Video Store online. I know its not their market. but this technology raises some crazy possibilities for all types of delivery not just cinema's