The Natives are Getting Restless

[Mark L. Pederson]

So, I have been without internet since last Friday morning until now, as I took my 22 month-old son to Elkton, Minnesota to visit his 92 year old great Grandmother. There isn't much technology in Elton, Minnesota except the latest from John Deere. So, I am now just catching up on me REDUSER.NET - and all the "drama" after Jim's post re:Delay -

I am reading the recent REDUSER threads and well ... if my Grandfather were alive (he was a successful farmer, fisherman and hunter - a man a few, but wise words) he would say "the natives are getting restless". Reservation holders want their cameras.

Seems like Redusers are very quick to attack each other these days ... things seem to be getting a bit more emotional.

I don't know if anybody really cares about what I think, but I (or rather my company Offhollywood Digital) is technically the EARLIEST reservation holder (after Jim's #1-5), and also technically the first reservation holder to reserve MORE THAN ONE camera, so I feel like I should at least make a few comments.

Aren't we all here (with the exception of the lurkers) because we are excited and passionate about owning an ultra-high quality digital cinema camera? Isn't that what this is about? It really seems to me like many Redusers are starting to loose perspective.

There's an engineering delay. They are going to re-spin a board. They are going to try to get the BEST possible image they can out of the sensor. Reservation holders and huge players in Hollywood turn the screws - WHEN can we get the cameras? (and some "I want MY camera NOW! DADDY, I WANT THE GOOSE THAT LAYS THE GOLDEN EGG!") Jim says he should have answer on the 15th ...


On the 15th Jim says, he can't give you a new timeline yet - that he needs a few more facts from several suppliers to finish the timeline and should have everything he needs to present next Friday -

and then he goes on to say he is placing a handful of Beta prototypes (named but not serial numbered) before production begins on major motion pictures.

This is FANTASTIC!

It is only BAD news if you actually thought that on the 15th, you would get to know when you were getting your camera. And it sounds like you will only have to wait a week to find out. How would you have reacted if Jim said, "we are still working on it, it could take us months to solve this"??

Why do I think this is FANTASTIC?

Well ... most importantly, Jim didn't say he needed more time to engineer the board again. That is huge. The very fact that he is putting beta units on major motion pictures strongly suggests that what they were working on during this delay is done. Now they are on to field testing and production logistics. This is AWESOME.

As far as posts regarding who gets "beta units", and why are "majors" getting them instead of us little people, etc. - well, if you think about what RED's objective is for a moment, and not yourself ("DADDY, I want MY camera NOW! That stupid Spielberg is JUMPING THE LINE!!) then you would relax a bit.

Red needs to FIELD TEST units. In the hands of MULTIPLE seasoned, recognized professionals with years and years of experience AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. This accomplishes several things at the same time. This will prove, very quickly, if the camera is stable enough for feature production. Major "bugs", if any, will come to the surface quickly. RED will get VALUABLE FEEDBACK (that is not coming from Reduser's who think Jim Jannard is the greatest man that ever lived), but hardcore pros. And let's all be real here, the RED ONE being used successfully on more than one major motion picture VALIDATES the camera to an industry very "set in it's ways". Now you are sitting with a producer and you can say - they just used it on XXXXX from Disney (or Warner, or Fox, etc. etc.) and they loved it! That's good for everybody.

As a far as "my low reservation number is going to mean nothing" posts - well ... what did you think when you put your $1000 down? What did you expect? If you thought you would own a RED ONE before everybody else who ordered after you, well ... I think you're still getting what you wanted. I don't think there was anything about getting to beta test cameras in your reservation agreement.

Jim said "the camera gets better every day" - we should all be excited as hell, not selfish and greedy.

Offhollywood is cheering the whole RED team on, from the gang on the front line, and all the un-seen engineers in secret labs.

The last 5% might be the toughest, but the finish line is gonna be pretty damn sweet! See you there!!!

[Jarred Land]

Great Post Mark.

And indeed.. the high pressure big production tests on real shoots with the big guys teach us alot and let us fast forward so you all win.... In New Zealand we learned more in 2 days then we could of in 2 months back at the warehouse.

[Joel Kaye]

Agreed, from RED's POV it's a complete no brainer to want the biggest movies to try the camera out. It solves so many things at one time. Credibility to functionality to publicity in one swoop.

If they didn't believe the camera was great they'd never let it near those top pros. They'd release it into the wild and hype it past any criticisms. (kinda like the other guys have done in the past)

[Adam C Lubkin]

Nice Summary, Mark. Cool logo. Does the symbol have any particular meaning?

[Jim Exton]

Credibility to functionality to publicity in one swoop.


And for those who want to rent theirs out. I would add that credibility + functionality + publicity = demand and revenue.

[Tom Lowe]

Word.

[Ed Watkins]

hear, hear!
(or whatever they say in parliament when they agree, usually sounds like a kind of *hurrumph* sound.)

[John Travis]

I agree, well said.

I understand why people are getting restless, certainly I am. It's only natural.

But do people really want a camera that hasn't been properly field tested and might be buggy, just so they can get it a couple months sooner?

Or do they want a camera that has had a chance to stand up on its own in the field and works smoothly out of the box?

You want them to release it just so they can send out fixes for it when it doesn't work properly. This isn't Microsoft.

[Jannard]

I've always liked Mark. Well said.

When Oakley was born, we field-tested our grips and goggles with the best motocross riders in the world. Marty Smith, Mark Barnett, Ricky Johnson, Johnny O'Mara and Jeff Ward... to name a few. Their critique meant the most because they tested the hardest. It is the fastest way to see where you are. Trial by fire. Since our goggle release in 1981, Oakley riders have won more Supercross Championships than all other goggle companies combined. And every Championship in this milenium. For me... our stuff needs to not only work, it needs to work better. And it needs to improve every year. "One hit wonders" not spoken here. At least that is the theory.

We have the same goals for RED. I want to see many major motion pictures shot on RED. If RED is good enough for the best, it is good enough for the rest... and the ones that will be the best- next.

Please don't expect our camera to be 100% perfect. It is a miracle that we are this close in this short a period of time. But you have my word that whatever can be improved, made better in every way... we are on it. Features that are not enabled... will be. Things that go wrong will be corrected. And we won't charge you extra to fix our shortcomings.

I hope that the news this Friday will be understood and embraced. Not everyone will be happy no matter what we post. I just hope that all our reservation holders and potential customers give us a small break because we are trying to do everything as "right" as we can.

Jim

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Great post, I agree with that. Plus if the camera is tested on big-scale productions, and everything goes well, the demand for the RED will be bigger than ever, and I would think that would only help everyone who has a reservation for it now.

[Joel Kaye]

Not everyone will be happy no matter what we post. I just hope that all our reservation holders and potential customers give us a small break because we are trying to do everything as "right" as we can.

If anyone doubts this approach just look at the FCP2 "Color" thread with all the bug notes and complaints that Apple released this app too early.

Now imagine you're sitting there with crew, actors and all the rest of it and have your camera fail because it was released too soon. I'd rather move my start date back and get a camera that works. That's not feasible for many - but anyone who sets a start date and is counting on a RED showing up in time knowing none have shipped yet is being naively optimistic.

[Corrado Silveri]

Red needs to FIELD TEST units. In the hands of MULTIPLE seasoned, recognized professionals with years and years of experience.

Jim said "the camera gets better every day" - we should all be excited as hell, not selfish and greedy.

Really well said, Mark.

I can wait, not only, I can help (if needed).
There's no need to put Jim and all the Red Team's guys under pressure.
They have all the skills and the knowledge to give us the camera.

99% is not 100% (Jim's quote)

One, two, three or six month of delay? No problem. Give us the best you can do.

Corrado.

[Brook Willard]

Very well said by all. Somebody finally hit it in the way I was thinking it.

[Justin O'Neill]

I agree with Mark 100%. I am very pleased that major motion pictures will be testing the camera. Like many of you have said, it will give us a huge leg up when negotiating.

[Ace]

Setting precedence is paramount in breaking any mould.

Name dropping is one of the most powerful tools of the industry. How much credibility was garnered through the attachment of Jim's, Graemes or Teds, Jarreds name to this project? As Mark stated, mentioning names will put a smile on otherwise potentially concerned faces of investors, producers, clients etc.

[Casey Green]

Very well said by all. Somebody finally hit it in the way I was thinking it.

Yes, I completely agree... The developments look to be very exciting, rather than negative. I look forward to hearing more this Friday and seeing everyone at CineGear.

[Costelloe Michael]

Guys,

I'm sure that everyone is in agreement about what they want, where there's expectation and excitement there's bound to be occasional disappointment also, it's just people's nature. I've got a film this September that's totally locked down and sure we hoped it might work out that we get to shoot Red. It's a good quality but low budget job with a great script and a lot of talent attached, perfect for the Red... but for me to expect it to happen is unrealistic. Doesn't stop me from wanting it though!

You guys at Red carry on and when you deliver just give us a tool to shoot good images and all this griping will be forgotten like some playground squabble.

Mike Costelloe

[Ramesh Jai]

I am planning my first shoot with RED in April, 2008. I haven't even booked one but I know it will be in mass production by then with a short (hoping) waiting list.

I know I will have a RELIABLE camera that won't let me down and all thanks to the RED team who refused to release a half baked product.

Did somebody say Colour?

[roryhinds]

Yes restless indeed...

As for the board being fixed - well its all speculation at this point.

[Costelloe Michael]

Rory,

It must be twice as exciting having a reservation number as low as #68.

Twice as frustrating also?

Mike C

[Simon Blackledge]

Trust Mine to make it work.. if they can with FinalTouch... :)

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

lol, no nobody said "colour," they said Color, which is the name of the application. ;) It's also confusing to me when people call it FinalTouch. I didn't figure out until a bit later that is what the software was that Apple bought, apparently (I gather), but it's just called Color. That's it's name.

[Costelloe Michael]

I suppose it's a little bit like filming... digitally? ; )

[Frank Weeks]

Well put Mark,

I have been dreaming about a camera that shoots film quality (but cost less that your home) since I began video production in the late 70's. Jim will soon deliver. Even with the delay it is a dream come true.

As for the few Reds that will be steered toward Hollywood early on. Great.
That type of exposure money can't buy. It will make it much easier for all of us.

Go Red.

[Steve Gibby]

When Jim Jannard’s made his announcement last Friday on the “Delay news…sort of” it only took me eight minutes to post my affirmation of 100% support for what he posted.
Link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2875&page=2

After that, I headed out to do some work, and the thread then launched into a giant 25 pages, with 244 posts. By the time I re-visited the thread it was closed. I assume that Offhollywood opened this current thread in response to the opinions expressed on that previous thread. There were some passionate arguments on that thread and I understand the passion of both sides, however my 100% support for Jim’s decision on that still stands and I would have stated such later on that thread If I would have been online.

Beta testing of product prototypes is both normal and expected. I expected such with RED One, and probably via placed prototypes. As some posters on the closed thread observed, some of the early reservation holders are very qualified to beta test RED prototypes. Rather than use a few camera-experienced early reservation holders as testers, and start a potential “Why not me?” controversy among the rest, Jim wisely opted to limit beta testing to selected D-cinema features in progress – an excellent testing ground. IMO it was a good business decision, plain and simple.

Let’s rewind the calendar backwards:

Reservations for RED One were first taken at NAB 2006, and I reserved RED #8 then, but my support for RED and the RED One project pre-dates that first day reservations were taken by a full seven months. My respect for Jim Jannard and association with Oakley far pre-dated that – by about 25 years.

In the 1980’s and 1990’s, Oakley supported many of the cable network sports series that I worked on as a producer, director, and cameraman. All business relationships are built and maintained on a foundation of respect. I gained a healthy respect for Oakley and Jim Jannard through all those years. I perceived them as a class act – and still do.

From 2000-2005, as a freelance director and cameraman, I worked on several television programs for SPEED Channel that profiled NHRA drag racing, and Jim Jannard is heavily involved in that. Some of those programs profiled Jim’s Funny Cars and crew.

In October 2005 Jim asked me if I’d like to participate in the very first camera specification conference for a new digital cinema camera he was thinking of building, to be held at Oakley headquarters in December 2005. When he described what he wanted to do, I felt it was a very interesting idea, and accepted his invitation to the camera spec meeting.

December 14, 2005 was think tank day, when a panel of guys from multiple industries bellied up to a big table in the Oakley conference room and spent an entire day tossing around concepts for RED One. It was an incredible experience! A few of the guys who ended up being hired as members of RED Team were there, but several of them were not.

Shortly after that, when the DVX USER RED forum and DV Info RED forum were established, I volunteered my free time for several months to both of those forums as a moderator. I did the first published interview with Jim Jannard, announcing the details of RED One, in April 2006, just before NAB. Since then I’ve written several magazine and Internet articles profiling RED and RED One.

I’ve related the above background info on my past association with Jim Jannard, Oakley, and RED for this purpose: all relationships are built and maintained upon a foundation of respect and trust. I’ve built my respect of and trust for Jim Jannard, Oakley, and now RED over a period of many years now. When Jim related his dream of RED to me in 2005, I understood the technical requirements and need for such a camera system immediately, but more than that my longtime respect for Jim moved me to lend my support to the effort. The years had taught me that Jim was a man of insight, perseverance, passion, artistry, and ethics. It’s those qualities that earned my respect, not his wealth. In fact, it’s those qualities that earned him his wealth. I’m an independent businessman with my own busy work schedule, but my respect for Jim and his excellent and timely idea of RED and RED One convinced me to lend my support over these years to the RED effort – a decision I’ve never regretted.


As you can tell from the above, when it comes to RED, I go way beyond being an “early adopter”, “early reservation holder” or a “fanboy” – in fact, I was onboard the concept of RED and RED One before they even existed – because of my respect for Jim Jannard.

Fast forward back to today. I support Jim’s decision of last Friday 100%. I have a great testing team assembled who are standing by to test RED #8 in Los Angeles when I receive it – I’ll post the names and details of the testing parameters next week. The last thing RED or my testing team would want is for a highly-limited prototype, that hadn’t been field tested in real world production, to be the shipping camera that we test in Los Angeles (#8).

Does my history with Jim, Oakley, and RED mean that I'm not objective in my analysis of RED One, it's lenses, and accessories? No - objectivity is in my nature. Will the testing team for RED #8 be objective and unbiased in their testing, and will the results be posted without sugar-coating? Yes. The notion that because someone voices enthusiasm for a product they must have lost their objectivity is ludicrous, and a convenient easy out for critics.

We’re all part of the overall family of people interested in RED One. Let me add my request to that of others on this thread that we close ranks, give respect to others, and keep RED User as a place of idea exchange, learning, and progress. When this Friday’s announcement comes, let’s communicate and discuss, rather than accuse and fight. After all, we all want the same thing – a functional, full-featured camera system that can deliver well in the real world of production scenarios. I believe RED will deliver that – and as I’ve summarized above, I’ve believed that for many years now.

[Frank Weeks]

"I’ll post the names and details of the testing parameters next week"

Thanks
I will look foreward to your post.

[Gunleik Groven]

As far as I remember:
All specs and timetables are moving targets and due to change on short notice (usually in the fantastic direction, though)
Deposit is 100%/110/120% refundable depending on when you reserved.

So what more is there to say?

Go for it and make it eaven better!

Cheers and thanks

Gunleik

[PaulClements]

One of the reasons I asked in that thread about whether anyone on the reservation list/poster here at reduser would be amongst those testing is because I'd love to hear feedback (I was thinking maybe yourself Gibby or perhaps even the venerable Mr Mullen). I imagine we will not get as much input from people working with the camera if it's behind closed doors - Maybe I'm wrong? I hope so. I've enjoyed reading about the trials and tribulations Red have had to overcome and it'd be a shame if they stopped coming now and only those involved with the shoots were party to the ups and downs of shooting a feature with Red for the first time. Perhaps a Red Beta Blog by Jim or the different members of the Red teams stationed on the shoots would be good? :)
(I'd be happy to put something together for you if wanted one designing)

[Don Woods]

Mark it was a pleasure to meet you at NAB and have some time to talk to you. You hit it right on the head. I am very excited to see where we end up. And if that means I have to wait for a year to recive my two cameras. And I get the quilty out of the cameras the we know is possible. So Be. it. I am rooting 100% for the RED team and all that they are doing. I think Jim has done and amazing job keeping us informed when he dose not have to. We put money down on a product that was always stated under devlopment. Even when they where getting closer even now down to the last 5% it is still under devlopment. Until it say that the camera is under production then we have no reason to worry or bitch. IMHO

[Steve Gibby]

Thanks Paul. I personally appreciate your vote of confidence in suggesting that I beta test a RED prototype, as I would guess David Mullen also appreciates your confidence. That said, I fully support Jim Jannard's decision on how RED should proceed with beta testing. The bottom line is to get the cameras into the hands of good shooters and get some useful feedback - something RED will definitely be achieving by what they've announced. I think your suggestion of getting some feedback from the beta testers posted here on RED User is very cool, but RED is swamped with development details for the camera system, and we'll see if they take your suggestion. I have confidence in RED Team and that they'll take care of us as best they can at every turn - under very busy and trying circumstances.

[Greg Syverson]

I sold all my video equipment over a year ago. Everytime I thought of buying something, something new was just announce. I am out of the market at this time. I will buy Red when it is available. I dont care how long it takes. I just want something that will last and is a good. The Red Camera will be top of the line. I believe this 100%


777

778

[Gavin Greenwalt]

As soon as those 4 productions finish using the betas I think RED cameras will be in higher demand than ever. Those who are worried about the "significance" of their reservation need not worry. If the tests go well, demand will go up and I somehow doubt that RED is going to let retail cameras leave out of the reservation order.

Wet their appetite and then make them stand in line with everybody else. Those first couple hundred could be very very busy.

[Steve Gibby]

I definitely think you're right on that Gavin…

Further evidence of RED's intentions to help take care of reservation holders along those lines, and help keep their cameras busy, was emailed out to reservation holders yesterday from RED: the RED Rental Referral List. Very cool...

There's new thread going on RED User about that newly announced RED service.

Link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2918

[Ramesh Jai]

I sold all my video equipment over a year ago. Everytime I thought of buying something, something new was just announce. I am out of the market at this time. I will buy Red when it is available. I dont care how long it takes. I just want something that will last and is a good. The Red Camera will be top of the line. I believe this 100%


777

778
Every year or two I buy a better, newer camera. As soon as I buy RED that will be it. No more cameras for me. No more waiting for a better one to come along. Finally I can start investing in good writers, better crew, better actors...

[Joe Aurili]

How about RED Two or the RED pocket camera? :)


Every year or two I buy a better, newer camera. As soon as I buy RED that will be it. No more cameras for me. No more waiting for a better one to come along. Finally I can start investing in good writers, better crew, better actors...

[Andrew Benz]

How about RED Two or the RED pocket camera? :)
(shakes fist towards the heavens and screams into the cliffs of the White River--echo effect) Damn You jlaurili and your confounding logic!!! My head is spinning... fade to black....

Sorry, just a lil' restless (joke)

...last post for a while

[MikeCurtis]

I was out of town over the weekend as well and am just catching up on everything - if we're almost there, we're almost there. I'd much rather have some high end DP bang on this thing and find the bugs than have it be up to me. Well, maybe not ME, since I like to figure this stuff out, but MOST users would rather that scenario I'd imagine.

In short - well put Mark - I totally agree.

-mike

[Keith Nealy]

Well said Mark and Gibby... and Jim, you have my 100% support.

Thank you for your unwavering dedication, honesty and integrity.

I have been in this business since I was 13, and now, 47 years later, I can say I have never seen such an entrepreneurial leap that has the possibility to fundementally change the landscape of this industry.

I also support your decision for having RED tested on major features because the marketing value alone will help ensure the success of RED making it better for all of us.

And I agree with Gibby that we, as early supporters, should close ranks and do whatever we can to help this enormous effort. I think it's the least we can do for the consideration we are getting.

And let's put this "Fanboy" nonsense to rest. Having respect and excitement for a true champion is very refreshing in these times of cynacism and suspicion. Jim deserves nothng less than our complete support and trust because he has proven - at least to me - through his honest communications and committment that he has earned it.

Jim's courage is also something that impresses me more than anything. Think of what it takes to do something like this and then think of what he has risked in the process. Many of us are concerned about schedules and delays and -god forbid - failure. Just think about what failure would mean to Jim.

Some would say, "what does it matter, he doesn't need the money." to those people I would say they don't understand the nature of a man like Jim and what drives him to create a self-imposed challenge like RED and the courage one needs to see it through. To men like Jim - "failure is not an option."

I have had several military commanders and a few directors in my career that I would follow anywhere and in some cases, risk my life for... and Jim has earned my repect and joins that group.

"Fanboy"... I don't think so. It's just plain old-fashoned respect.

Aloha,

Keith

[Scott Sniffen]

Hey, give us the camera when it's ready. The last thing I want is to be on a set and the thing has a meltdown. I look bad, RED looks bad, etc. If these cameras go out truly untested and they start failing, the competition will have a field day with the press and all the momentum and excitement will be lost. The big guys are just waiting for a major glitch so they can swarm in cast doubt on the entire effort. Trust would be lost and it would take time to gain that trust back. For those who cannot wait, you could always go out and buy an F-23. Yea, right.

[Ramesh Jai]

How about RED Two or the RED pocket camera? :)
It took me a day to convince myself that RED would be my last camera..please do not corrupt my resolutions. There will be a RED 2?

[Zakaree Sandberg]

I dont think there will be a red 2.. red one is modular.. if they come out with a new sensor.. u buy it.. if they come out with a new evf you buy it.. or you can buy the latest red one with all the new shit.. but i dont think a new body style or anything like that called RED 2 would come out... thats my own thoughts.

PS.. RED BOOT CAMP PLEAAAASSSEEE... HAWAII? OCTOBERISH? or jim private island in washington? haha somewhere cool?

[Clint Johnson]

Last year when I was placing my reservation, I took Jim at his word when he gave targets for delivery and said that they were subject to change if, and more likely when, development problems cropped up. Some problems showed up and that caveat came into play. Anyone who gets their knickers in a knot wasn't paying as much attention as they should have.

[Jay A. Kelley]

I am very please with how things are progressing. People on here have spoken their minds well, and the near future for RED looks exciting indeed.

I must also say, from a rental and operator perspective, that I see a lot of work and some fairly decent money in my future with RED

HOOOOO -RAH!

Jay

Sorry to be greedy, but while my passion may be film making, my true love are my children.. And they cost a lot of damn money!!

[Steve Gibby]

...my true love are my children.. And they cost a lot of damn money!!

Same here - my children and grandchildren! There's light at the end of the tunnel though - I've worked them around into loving inexpensive things at the beach now (surfing, skimboarding, etc.). Now if I can just get them to get good grades so they can get scholarships for college, and earn their own cars, that would be way cool...

[Paul Leeming]

Just to chime in here on a slightly different (but related) tack, Clint's sig reminded me that I too have a low res 18-85mm zoom lens reservation. With the potential delays in cameras shipping, it may well be that since lens development is doubtless going on completely separately to the cameras themselves, the 18-85mm could be ready in time for those people who reserved to actually choose that lens over the 18-50mm if the timeframe for delivery is near enough together.

That said, I'd just like to add my small voice to the fray in saying that I too fully support Red's stance on delaying as long as necessary to ship a 100% field tested, rugged product. It's a one shot deal and the competition will have a field day if there are any flaws at all in its repertoire. I am confident that won't happen BECAUSE of the extended testing schedule, so no complaints here! Keep up the good work Red, the finish line is in sight!

[Keith Alan Morris]

Ok, I was one of the original posters on this topic agreeing with Finner by saying, "Whaaat?" to the first cameras (albeit betas) going out to the (supposed) "linejumpers"--the 4 studio (or big budget) features instead of the earliest rez holders.

Then I came to LA for meetings all this week, and have reversed my thinking completely--a full 180 degrees. (That's why I've been pretty quiet.) Here's why.

For every studio exec we met about our projects, I mentioned the Red and they instantly knew about it (their eyes sparkled, the whole nine). They were only TRULY impressed though when I mentioned the 4 "major" projects being shot with it, then the Peter Jackson short, etc. Then I ended up giving a makeshift RED clinic on what we've learned on this forum at each meeting, singing the praises of Red and the footage I've seen.

These dudes are top dogs, budget is not the issue with them. Bottom line, these folks gave the camera WAY more respect when I mentioned the 4 big projects. Inside, I went "Oh."

Duh.

(Some of em even asked me what lense packages I was getting. It's a small industry, aint it?)

Ultimately, it is all about PERCEPTION, just a different kind. And like Jim says, if its good enough for the best--people spending millions upon millions on films--its good enough for the rest. :)

[Joel Kaye]

Every year or two I buy a better, newer camera. As soon as I buy RED that will be it. No more cameras for me. No more waiting for a better one to come along. Finally I can start investing in good writers, better crew, better actors...

I've kinda been wondering if this is a first mover market - the first workable 35mm digital cine camera wins. It sure looks that way to me... What does anyone else have to do to get sales in this market? They can't simply match RED... what would get people to buy another brand? 4K at 120fps? More dynamic range? A better codec? $10k? It'll take RED a year and a handful of big features to become a trustworthy brand name.

I just don't see too many chinks in the RED armour. I think Canon, Panny, JVC and Sony are screwed - at least for narrative. Consumer, Reality TV, Sports, and ENG won't be affected. Those are probably areas RED will have a harder time denting. Maybe that's the lion's share of the profit too.

[Keith Alan Morris]

Joelnet, we talk about a "Brand Killer" and Red has all the earmarks of one. An example of a brand killer is Kleenex, of all things. When your nose is runny, you dont say (girly voice), "Please pass me a tissue." You say, "Gimme a Kleenex." That's the definition of a Brand Killer. When it's name becomes THE item.

Youre right. The first workable 35mm digital cine camera wins, IMHO.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Yeah that's actually seen as sometimes a bad thing for a company like Kleenex, though, because if you just associate all tissues as being Kleenexes, they worry that you won't care what brand you buy. I think for me it is more like, "Wait... they make other brands of Kleenex?" Then I go, "Oh wait, they're tissues... they make other brands of tissues besides Kleenex?" hehe.

[Costelloe Michael]

For every studio exec we met about our projects, I mentioned the Red and they instantly knew about it (their eyes sparkled, the whole nine). They were only TRULY impressed though when I mentioned the 4 "major" projects being shot with it, then the Peter Jackson short, etc. Then I ended up giving a makeshift RED clinic on what we've learned on this forum at each meeting, singing the praises of Red and the footage I've seen.

These dudes are top dogs, budget is not the issue with them. Bottom line, these folks gave the camera WAY more respect when I mentioned the 4 big projects. Inside, I went "Oh."
:)

And in that sparkle in their eyes did you read 'Oh good now we can make superior low budget movies'? Or was it more 'Oh good now we can make superior grossing low budget movies'?

There was a perception amongst UK execs that HD was going to signal the end of the 'expensive crew' monopoly. No more picky, fussy focus pullers, anyone can now do that. Anyone tried pulling focus on a 35mm lense adaptor and lighting up because your losing 1 1/2 stops to the technology?

I don't particular mind Red taking longer, but I would be careful about whose eyes I look for my inspiration.

Mike EC

[Clint Johnson]

Yeah that's actually seen as sometimes a bad thing for a company like Kleenex, though, because if you just associate all tissues as being Kleenexes, they worry that you won't care what brand you buy. I think for me it is more like, "Wait... they make other brands of Kleenex?" Then I go, "Oh wait, they're tissues... they make other brands of tissues besides Kleenex?" hehe.

Actually it is always a bad thing for companies with trademarks like Kleenex. If the trademark become synonymous with a product type it will loose its protected status and enter the public domain. Kleenex probably spends a few hundred thousand dollars a year in advertising and public relations - just trying to get writers to NOT use Kleenex generically in there work. Xerox runs a lot of ads stipulating that Xerox machines do not xerox anything- they photocopy just like all other photocopiers.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

hahaha, yeah it's kind of funny though isn't it? When a company's success is so massive that the very name of the company becomes synonymous with what the product does. "Hey can you go Xerox this for me?" "Pass me a Kleenex."

And you know what's next...

"Just Google it!" Doesn't really mean you're using Google, it'll be thought of as just a term to search for something, haha.

[Rocco Schult]

will we RED that or shoot on 35 ?

[jaadgy akanni]

will we RED that or shoot on 35 ?

the verb should be "to redshoot"
I redshoot, you redshoot, etc.
Instead of using film, you guys should've redshot that.

[Ramesh Jai]

the verb should be "to redshoot"
I redshoot, you redshoot, etc.
Instead of using film, you guys should've redshot that.
No, I prefer the suggestion in the previous reply, 'Should we Red that or film on 35?'

Redshoot too long. Let's Red this or Red that...much better.

We do have a lot of time on our hands.

[mavrix]

Although I agree whole-heartedly with the above. I would also like to see the camera placed with a couple of smaller independent feature film companies like the one I run where we are making smaller budget films of $2.5 million and under. Placing the cameras with bigger budget films puts them hypothetically in an ideal test scenario. Quite often we are shooting with minimal resources as dictated by our budgets and seeing that the camera can hold-up in these environments would be very encouraging as well. We are an early reservation holder as well - having several cameras under serial #100 -- as soon as we get these, they are going to be thrown into the field in a variety of environmental conditions. I think we all expect to go through some growing pains and a significant learning curve with these cameras - but it is certainly exciting.

Rob P.

[ianfreeze]

feature film sets are no walk in the park either. You should check out the special features on "Bad Boys 2". The behind the scenes footage is pretty intese, Bay apparently is the most massive prick alive, at least when hes on set anyway. Also see if you can find the American Cinematographer article on "The Four Feathers". They shot in the desert and had to clean sand out of ALL the equipment on a nightly basis. <Yoda>A feature film budget does not as easy shoot make. </Yoda>

[mavrix]

I've worked on many big budget feature films as well - and know the obstacles faced at all levels - I was referring specifically to resources available -- things such as appropriate grip and lighting equipment which we never have enough of with indies.

[Keith Alan Morris]

Although I agree whole-heartedly with the above. I would also like to see the camera placed with a couple of smaller independent feature film companies like the one I run where we are making smaller budget films of $2.5 million and under. Placing the cameras with bigger budget films puts them hypothetically in an ideal test scenario. Quite often we are shooting with minimal resources as dictated by our budgets and seeing that the camera can hold-up in these environments would be very encouraging as well. We are an early reservation holder as well - having several cameras under serial #100 -- as soon as we get these, they are going to be thrown into the field in a variety of environmental conditions. I think we all expect to go through some growing pains and a significant learning curve with these cameras - but it is certainly exciting.

Rob P.

yep, that aint gonna happen (sendin' em out with indies too). the very first footage is crucial and its all about good marketing up front. that means under the ideal lighting situations etc. i wanted some in indies hands too at first, but after thinking about it, i'd probably do the same thing in his situation.