Need Clarification on Serial # vs Delivery Date

[David Anderson]

You can transfer ownership of a RED ONE and the new owner can use that priority to upgrade to an EPIC. That should make all RED ONEs valuable to sell and the early serial numbers even more valuable. Remember that a RED ONE can only be used once for trade-in allowance or for a discount on a Scarlet system. Once used, the serial number is then so marked.

Jim

My company bought two used cameras in the #1000's in order to reserve our place in line for future Red cameras and releases. At this time Red was shipping new cameras (w/ upgraded audio) same day. The only reason we bought used was to get in line. We were renting and shooting with these cameras since June of 08 and finally went ahead and purchased the cameras from the owners because it made obvious financial sense for us to do so - with the added bonus of lower serial numbers.

I've heard several people say that using the delivery date of the original owner vs the serial# is to protect those who took immediate delivery of their Red instead of waiting. This makes complete sense to me and I would agree. However, this was not the response I received from Red yesterday.

We have waited until now to officially transfer ownership to keep from having to send the camera in for re certification and transfer in December, only to have to pull it from production again in the spring for the audio upgrades. It makes more sense for us to only have our camera down for a single week instead of two.

When I contacted Red yesterday about sending the camera next week for upgrades and ownership transfer, I was told that when the camera was shipped back to use, that would be considered the delivery day of the camera, wiping out the original delivery date and putting us at the very back of the line for Epic/Scarlet/RPP. This directly contradicts what was announced in November and what I thought had come to be common knowledge.

What I'm looking for is official clarification from Red on what the actual company policy is. I am sitting with money in hand to reserve at least one set of RPP's this week once we become official owners. I'm also prepared to upgrade to Epic-X when it is launched. The original delivery dates of the two cameras I now own are Feb 08 and June 08. Official ownership transfer will be April 09. If Red has changed the policy that pushes me over a year back on the list. At this point I just need to know where Red officially stands so I can begin planning my business strategy over the coming months.

Can anyone from Red help?

[Mark Pugh]

I'm in the same boat, and have been posting about this for a day or two. No response from Red, but a moderator from Reduser said that the original delivery date would stand for Epic Upgrades.

Accessories such as lenses are handled differently, and relate to the new "delivery date" (post ownership transfer). That was the ruling way back when.
The Red Pro Primes fall into this category, although Jarred Land stated this very week that reservations for Red Pro Primes taken this week would be placed in "RED ONE serial number" order.
So I sent a camera in for quick ownership transfer, also...

I certainly hope Jim Jannard is good for his word.
I've learned this week that unfortunately sometimes people don't mean what they say. I also would like confirmation that the moderators's correct, it'll be OK and the original owner's delivery date will stick for the Epic upgrade.

[Mark Pugh]

This is what Jeff moderator Kilgroe wrote, regarding #228's trade-in for an Epic, delivered in January 2008:

"Mark, you should be fine... RED is going off delivery dates, but they are going off of dates the cameras were originally shipped from RED, AFAIK. So your January 2008 position with serial #228 should be golden.

Just because you transferred the camera into your name this month doesn't matter, your serial number and original delivery date transfers with the camera to the new owner."

[David Anderson]

This is what Jeff moderator Kilgroe wrote, regarding #228's trade-in for an Epic, delivered in January 2008:

"Mark, you should be fine... RED is going off delivery dates, but they are going off of dates the cameras were originally shipped from RED, AFAIK. So your January 2008 position with serial #228 should be golden.

Just because you transferred the camera into your name this month doesn't matter, your serial number and original delivery date transfers with the camera to the new owner."

That discussion was what sparked this thread. I understand that accessories could potentially fall with the new delivery date and I'm cool with that as long as the low serial number keeps me in line for the Epic upgrades.

I'm a little disappointed I might have to wait in line longer for the lenses but I can live with that.

[Brent@RED]

The original policy was to have the date a camera was sent in for ownership transfer be the "delivery date on record" for the new owner. That is not the current policy. As Jim, Jarred, and myself have said in other threads, the original serial number and owner delivery date transfer to the new owner...period.

As has also been said, we go by camera delivery date, not serial number, for fulfillment order of accessories (unless an exception like the 18-85 that had reservation numbers). So, if you are buying a RED from a third-party, be aware that an early serial number does NOT mean an early delivery date. Make sure you ask about delivery date.

Also, as Jim mentions, a serial number can only be used once for the SCARLET discount or trade-in allowance. Make sure you find out if that serial number has already been executed.

Sorry for any confusion between the original policy and the current one. If you ever have any ownership transfer questions, please contact Kelly at kelly - at - red - dot - com directly. She handles every transfer personally.

Thanks, BC

[Etienne Caron]

Hi Brent,

If i order two set of Red primes, do i get them at the same time or there is a limit per owner when ordering ?

Thanks

[Brent@RED]

You get them at the same time - based on the delivery date of your camera if you order before EOD on Apr 28. After that, first come, first serve.

BC

[Meddy MOST]

This thread is impressive ...
What will happen to people buying RED ONE now and who want to buy PRIME LENSE or any accessories, they will be thrown to a very long long long wait then ?...

This is clearly making me think if I have to buy now or wait later when production will be faster... I don't find that a RED ONE without lenses for instance is a good deal ...

But patience is a vertue ... I know... but all this is frightening me ...

Cheers

[Mark Pugh]

You get them at the same time - based on the delivery date of your camera if you order before EOD on Apr 28. After that, first come, first serve.

BC
Thanks, Brent...
If an ownership transfer is completed tomorrow, there will be a new delivery date for tar camera in relation to accessories (like the RPP) deposits ( but not EPIC trade- INS). The new delivery date would be tomorrow, correct?

[Mark Pugh]

Brent, your post above makes no distinction between red one trade- ins, and accessory orders. Could you clarify?

[David Anderson]

The original policy was to have the date a camera was sent in for ownership transfer be the "delivery date on record" for the new owner. That is not the current policy. As Jim, Jarred, and myself have said in other threads, the original serial number and owner delivery date transfer to the new owner...period.

As has also been said, we go by camera delivery date, not serial number, for fulfillment order of accessories (unless an exception like the 18-85 that had reservation numbers). So, if you are buying a RED from a third-party, be aware that an early serial number does NOT mean an early delivery date.

If I understand correctly this means that when we transfer ownership of camera #1200 (original delivery date Feb 08) we will be slotted in at the position of that delivery date for the new RPPs (if we order before EOD 4/28) as well as keep that date for either one Epic trade in or Scarlet upgrade.

[Curran Giddens]

The new delivery date would be tomorrow, correct?

No, you won't get a new delivery date. Transferring ownership doesn't change the original delivery date.

[Curran Giddens]

If I understand correctly this means that when we transfer ownership of camera #1200 (original delivery date Feb 08) we will be slotted in at the position of that delivery date for the new RPPs (if we order before EOD 4/28) as well as keep that date for either one Epic trade in or Scarlet upgrade.

Yes, that is correct.

[Paul Leeming]

We have a spread of numbers so we're not too bad (since the first of our cameras is #378, delivered Feb 2008), but this is much messier than only using serial numbers, especially since a lot of people waited for the camera to be out of beta, have all accessories available, etc etc, before taking delivery, even though they had early faith in Red before there were any cameras at all by plunking down the $1,000 deposit.

Now a potential purchaser has to verify somehow what the delivery date was as opposed to just knowing a simple number by which to base their purchasing decision.

I'm sure my post won't change anything but the original post from Jim only mentioned serial numbers as being valuable, meaning that already people have bought cameras second hand for a premium in order to use that number to advantage.

I'd say at a bare minimum, the first 1500 camera reservations should be done by number since we were the ones putting our faith in Red (with a cool Red "R" to show for it, thanks Jim!).

Thoughts?

Thanks for listening anyway Red, it's always appreciated :)

Paul

[Cüneyt Kaya]

didnt the 1st 1500 get a 10% discount on assec. or 1500 dollars of assec. for free?

isnt that enough?

[Lenny Manfred]

Here's my beef: When RED first came into the landscape a few NABs ago, I thought "Great, just what I have been looking for, a way to get that 35mm depth of field that made better sense than that ps technik adapter!

I immediately put down my $1,000 deposit and got in line on the 202 spot. Mind you, all this people from the big camera companies kept saying bad things about it, but I believed, and I sailed on.

Move forward almost two years, delivery time. I get a notice from RED that they are ready for my group. I am very excited, but there is all this talk on reduser about issues with the pl mount and built 13, and that you are going to have to send it back for them to change the pl mount... so i ask my red rep if i can wait for the new pl mount and the new built, wait until the next delivery group, and if that will affect me in any way, and the answer is no, don't worry, you can do that. so i wait.

Now you are telling me that by deciding to wait i forfeited my place in line?
Had anyone mentioned that when i asked back then i would not have waited.
Remember, I was there two years ago, betting my $1,000 on a piece of wood and a company that sprung out from thin air, a time when there where a lot of jokes with the word RED as the punch-line!

I think the fair thing is to go by serial numbers, that's it. This was the original line. Don't change the rules now.

[Brent@RED]

didnt the 1st 1500 get a 10% discount on assec. or 1500 dollars of assec. for free?

isnt that enough?

Yes, first 1500 serial numbers did get a credit towards accessories.

BC

[Brent@RED]

Now a potential purchaser has to verify somehow what the delivery date was as opposed to just knowing a simple number by which to base their purchasing decision.

I'm sure my post won't change anything but the original post from Jim only mentioned serial numbers as being valuable, meaning that already people have bought cameras second hand for a premium in order to use that number to advantage.


Yes, early serial numbers are valuable, as Jim said. Obviously, the earlier the serial number, the earlier the person had the chance to take delivery. And I am trying to be helpful here in communicating that since we fulfill in order of delivery date, that if you are looking to by a RED ONE from a third-party, to confirm delivery date. Ask to see a copy of the invoice from the camera.

BC

[Brent@RED]

Thanks, Brent...
If an ownership transfer is completed tomorrow, there will be a new delivery date for tar camera in relation to accessories (like the RPP) deposits ( but not EPIC trade- INS). The new delivery date would be tomorrow, correct?

On transfer of ownership, the original serial number and delivery date transfer to the new owner. The applies to SCARLET, EPIC, RPP's - everything.

Recently, we stated (and it is on our online store) what the fulfillment policy is for RPPs.

I would be careful making any assumptions about EPIC trade-in priority. As in the first post of this thread, Jim stated: "You can transfer ownership of a RED ONE and the new owner can use that priority to upgrade to an EPIC. That should make all RED ONEs valuable to sell and the early serial numbers even more valuable. Remember that a RED ONE can only be used once for trade-in allowance or for a discount on a Scarlet system. Once used, the serial number is then so marked."

We have NOT posted or announced the exact fulfillment process for EPIC. What we have said is that early serial numbers and early delivery dates are valuable - nothing has changed. And we have also stated that anticipate manufacturing volumes that will not cause another long backorder situation like we all experienced with RED ONE.

Hope this clears it up some more...

BC

[Brent@RED]

I think the fair thing is to go by serial numbers, that's it. This was the original line. Don't change the rules now.

Change the rules now? Nothing is changing: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=238723&postcount=1 . Delivery date has been the rule for almost a year. This was based on customer feedback on this very forum.

I understand your frustration, Lenny. When your camera was invoiced, it was before we shifted from "serial number" to "delivery date" as the placeholder in queue. So what your rep told you was true and correct at that time.

With any policy, you are not going to make everyone happy. But again, RED made the policy change based on customer feedback that is was the fairer of the two options.

BC

[Ching C. Wang]

On transfer of ownership, the original serial number and delivery date transfer to the new owner. The applies to SCARLET, EPIC, RPP's - everything.


I feel sad about this policy because it just doesn't sound right.

It means that if I'm joining the Revolution today, buying an used low SN Red One, I'll have priority over other hundreds of original Red owners who joined the Revolution, betting their money and support, 2-3 years ago.

It means people can just buy a better place in the line. Not fair.

ching

[Brent@RED]

In order for someone to buy an early S/N, it means that someone who bet their money 2-3 years ago is selling.

And whether that person sells or not, your place in queue after them stays the same. So, a person selling their RED ONE has no affect on the people in line after them - the placeholder stays the same.

BC