Where's the beef?

[Lenny Manfred]

Here's my beef: When RED first came into the landscape a few NABs ago, I thought "Great, just what I have been looking for, a way to get that 35mm depth of field that made better sense than that ps technik adapter!

I immediately put down my $1,000 deposit and got in line on the 202 spot. Mind you, all this people from the big camera companies kept saying bad things about it, but I believed, and I sailed on.

Move forward almost two years, delivery time. I get a notice from RED that they are ready for my group. I am very excited, but there is all this talk on reduser about issues with the pl mount and built 13, and that you are going to have to send it back for them to change the pl mount... so i ask my red rep if i can wait for the new pl mount and the new built, wait until the next delivery group, and if that will affect me in any way, and the answer is no, don't worry, you can do that. so i wait.

Now you are telling me that by deciding to wait i forfeited my place in line?
Had anyone mentioned that when i asked back then i would not have waited.
Remember, I was there two years ago, betting my $1,000 on a piece of wood and a company that sprung out from thin air, a time when there where a lot of jokes with the word RED as the punch-line!

I think the fair thing is to go by serial numbers, that's it. This was the original line. Don't change the rules now.

[Raul Gonzo]

Lenny, I am 290 and it has been that way since I can remember. But, the cool thing about Red is this:
They have the best customer service I have ever seen.
Talk to your rep. - sometimes exceptions to the rules are necessary- like in your case. I am sure they will do their best to keep their word and make you happy.

[Brent@RED]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=409238&postcount=20

And, sadly, I am old enough to get the "Where's the beef?" reference :)

BC

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Lenny, I am 290 and it has been that way since I can remember. But, the cool thing about Red is this:
They have the best customer service I have ever seen.
Talk to your rep. - sometimes exceptions to the rules are necessary- like in your case. I am sure they will do their best to keep their word and make you happy.

Nothing personal against Lenny here, but how does his situation justify exception? Lots of people with early serial numbers waited for a variety of reasons. This is the very reason the delivery date policy was put into place.

Your "place in line" is secured when you pay your balance in full with RED and your camera is placed on the FedEx truck. Simple as that. Money talks, BS walks. If you waited on the purchase because you felt the camera had issues or was not ready for prime time, that's cool, you're obviously more sensible than many of us here. But that low serial number isn't going to buy you priority over someone who paid in full and took delivery of their camera before you did.

[Raul Gonzo]

Hey Jeff, I wasn't saying that his case was an exception, but sometimes there are exceptions (and Lenny's could be one, idk- not my call)- and there are people smart enough and kind enough at red to see the difference.
Take the whole Birger/Red warranty situation...

[Julio Quintana]

I think the people who were willing to deal with early bugs and problems deserve their place at the front of the line. We all benefited from their voluntary beta testing.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Hey Jeff, I wasn't saying that his case was an exception, but sometimes there are exceptions (and Lenny's could be one, idk- not my call)- and there are people smart enough and kind enough at red to see the difference.
Take the whole Birger/Red warranty situation...

Sure, there are probably exceptions out there to all the various policies. But that's for those at RED to sort through.


I think the people who were willing to deal with early bugs and problems deserve their place at the front of the line. We all benefited from their voluntary beta testing.

I agree 110% and I think that's where the delivery date policy plays an important role. IMO, a #400 camera owner who took delivery in February 2008 deserves their place in line ahead of a #150 camera that took delivery in October '08. It seems as if RED feels the same way.

[LEON]

I ordered the camera with EVF, no 5 inch LCD

Would you buy a camera with no EVF ? No way to see ?

So, I said" Ok, I waited 18 months, I can wait a littlle more untill when EVF is ready"
and since that time, rules have changed.

Did I get a warning ? NO

Punished because EVF was not ready ? Fair you think ? uuhh!

[Raul Gonzo]

Sure, there are probably exceptions out there to all the various policies. But that's for those at RED to sort through.

:beer:I think we,re on the same page.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

@ LEON

Lots of us bought cameras without the EVF...

18 months doesn't make sense, why would you have waited 18 months? The EVF only started shipping 14 months ago. Original EVF orders were being fulfilled by serial #, but EVF backlog was actually a big reason the delivery date policy took effect. Wasn't fair to many who had their cameras for a few months already to not get their EVF, which instead would go to one of the many low-numbered cameras boght just after NAB last year.

RED can't please everyone. They're stuck in a damned if they do, damned if they don't situation about this. Looking back, they probably should have not made reservation numbers and serial numbers the same thing and just issued sequential serial numbers as cameras went out the door. Then serial # and delivery date would be one in the same, no matter what. 20/20 hindsight and all that...

I understand where you're coming from. I watched a few people with higher serial numbers get their EVF before me because of the delivery date policy. I know many earlier serial number holders who waited on their purchase for a variety of logical reasons. But in the end, I still maintain that the delivery date policy is the most fair way to handle the situation when considering all camera owners -- somewhere around 6000 of them.

I would like to think that in the not too distant future, that new lens and accessory policies will change. And for items that are not specific to a certain camera model (like lenses) will be sold and delivered on a first-come, first-served basis. But that has issues too, especially for items like the 18-85 that has taken a long time to ramp up.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

:beer:I think we,re on the same page.

Cool. :beer:

[Brent@RED]

I would like to think that in the not too distant future, that new lens and accessory policies will change. And for items that are not specific to a certain camera model (like lenses) will be sold and delivered on a first-come, first-served basis. But that has issues too, especially for items like the 18-85 that has taken a long time to ramp up.

Ah, Jeff, this has already happened... :) The RED PRO 300mm - fulfilled under the "first come, first serve" model: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22075 .

I probably should have touched on this earlier today when discussing RED PRIME SET and EPIC trade-in priority - and I am leery to do so now as it will muddy the water for some people. :willy_nilly:

When the RED PRO 300mm was released for sale on RED.com, it was a brand new product. No existing reservations like we had with RED prime sets and the 18-85. So, as Jarred posted in the above thread, they would be fulfilled in order in which orders were received.

So, yes, unless there are extenuating circumstances, the plan IS to fulfill backorders in the more traditional manner - in order in which orders are received (ie, by order time/date stamp). With 18-85, we had reservation numbers and existing orders since NAB 2006. With the RED PRO PRIME SETS, we had reservations from when it was originally on sale in 2007 and 2008 that we had to honor. Yes, for the RED PRO PRIME SET, we are doing a priority order period from April 22-28 for existing RED ONE owners (fulfillment by camera delivery date) - but after that, it is "first come, first serve".

So, long story short, accessory backorder fulfillment policy history:
1. By serial number. On June 20, 2008, it changed to...
2. By camera delivery date. On November 17, 2008, it changed to...
3. On accessories with existing reservations, camera delivery date. On future releases (ie, no existing reservations), by order time/date stamp.

Clear as mud? Here is the reasoning...
We changed to delivery date because the RED ONE was still on backorder. Why allocate an EVF to someone who had never taken delivery of their RED ONE when there was someone with a later serial number, already delivered and shooting? So, get accessories into the hands of the people who already have the camera, not the ones who don't.

RED ONE was off backorder. The playing field was level. We changed to "by order time/stamp - yet honor existing reservations" to achieve a more universal and traditional fulfillment model. People are used to this method and, frankly, it logistically easier on us (ie, RED) as well. But, we wanted to make sure any existing products in our system - or existing reservations - were respected and handled accordingly.

Phew, I need a drink...

BC

[LEON]

@ LEON

Lots of us bought cameras without the EVF...

18 months doesn't make sense, why would you have waited 18 months? The EVF only started shipping 14 months ago.

1- no EVF and no LCD ?! a camera for blind cameramen ?

2- 18 months since first deposit, my cam has number 609, good day

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Phew, I need a drink...

BC


Thanks for the additional clarification! :beer:

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Phew, I need a drink...

BC

kegerator still around?

[Meddy MOST]

1- no EVF and no LCD ?! a camera for blind cameramen ?

2- 18 months since first deposit, my cam has number 609, good day

Hope that one day in a near futur stock problem will be addressed...
Heard a lot of bad stories here in EU concerning stock...customs...repairs...

Did you finally got your EVF ?
How did you manage to shoot without LCD and EVF ??

CHeers

[LEON]

Hope that one day in a near futur stock problem will be addressed...
Heard a lot of bad stories here in EU concerning stock...customs...repairs...

Did you finally got your EVF ?
How did you manage to shoot without LCD and EVF ??

CHeers

I did receive both the cam with Evf in June 2008 instead of February 2008 because I did not want to receive a useless camera and now, for selling new items, RED takes in consideration not your order or camera number but delivery date, that is for me:
game rules change without warning. Unpleasant.

Customs, for me, so far, not a problem, just some boring paper work and lost time. Ignorance of some Fedex people is amazing.
About repairs , I'll know more next week (when the camera comes back from L.A.)
There were a few dust spots visible on images (dust on OLPF or sensor) that was visible from f:5,6 and on (8,11,16)

About stock, it depends what you look for.
For 16 GB cards, I waited 6 months from the order day.
It just means one thing: do not count on items untill you have them in hand AND tested .
Have good day .

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Hope that one day in a near futur stock problem will be addressed...
Heard a lot of bad stories here in EU concerning stock...customs...repairs...

Did you finally got your EVF ?
How did you manage to shoot without LCD and EVF ??

CHeers

its really not hard.. the camera has hdsdi and hdmi..

there are many monitoring solutions.

[LEON]

its really not hard.. the camera has hdsdi and hdmi..

there are many monitoring solutions.

Thank you, great news ! I never noticed that ! Brillant !

Of course for commercial work or when you have rehearsal and different takes
but for the work I do mostly handheld
documentary work in "cinema direct" style and situations, it is just not doable
without EVF.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Thank you, great news ! I never noticed that ! Brillant !

Of course for commercial work or when you have rehearsal and different takes
but for the work I do mostly handheld
documentary work in "cinema direct" style and situations, it is just not doable
without EVF.

sarcasm taken.

But to blame the evf delay as a hault in using a camera is just ridiculous.

my point was... you can use the camera with or without red branded monitoring (no matter what your style of shooting is)

[LEON]

sarcasm taken.

But to blame the evf delay as a hault in using a camera is just ridiculous.

my point was... you can use the camera with or without red branded monitoring (no matter what your style of shooting is)

Where do you read a blame ?

I am just sharing my experience with someone about order of delivery that had a change in rules.

You have no problem to share: then do not write on forum if you are not concerned.

Are you an unemployed graphomaniac ?

I see you point, it's to give lessons or treat people of being ridiculous for bad reasons !

I hope not to work with you anyday, have a good week.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

?? what the heck is goin on???
i was just stating that there are many ways to use the camera.

[Lenny Manfred]

i am with Leon on this. i can't shoot without a viewfinder. i don't like to mickey mouse things.

some of the people that bought red where buying their first high end camera, and some have been working with high end cameras for years. the newer folks are often younger, more computer savvy, and more flexible, they have learned to make do with what they have, but some of us are accustomed to working with complete packages, so we chose to wait until the camera was ready for us.

yet we where there, risking $1,000 on a start up company way ahead of most of you, and at that time red treated us very nicely because of the faith we put in them.

I just did not like when the rules changed in the middle of the game.