Microphone Recommend like 416 but cheaper ?

[Matt Uhry]

I'm looking to buy a basic shotgun mic, for use mostly on a boom pole, hopefully something that's similar in use to the sennheiser 416, but cheaper and with the option of an internal battery.

Sometime I'll use it on a boom pole, direct to red, sometimes to the red via mixer and also to be used patched into my Zoom H2 by way of the mini phono plug.

Hoping to spend under $500 - mic, boom pole, shockmount, wind thingy. Is that possible ?

Any ideas would be appreciated !

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Paul Hazlett]

Rode has a pretty good rep in that price range, but not battery powered.

http://usa.rodemic.com/microphone.php?product=NTG-3


If you want battery powered go for the Sennheiser Me-66 with k6 capsule

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/73100-REG/Sennheiser_ME66_K6_ME66_K6_Super_Cardioid_Mic.html

[Frank Weeks]

Don't think it's going to be under 500us. I am looking for the same setup but with all the accessories you mentioned...Well, take a look

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/563847-REG/Rode_NTG_3_NTG_3_Ultimate_Shotgun_Microphone.html

[Mark Phelan]

Matt, have a look at the Audio Technica 897. It has everything you are looking for and was recommended to me by BJ at Custom Supply when I needed something along the lines you requested. It's been a great mike and can be used with an internal battery or phantom, your choice. It's around $260.00.

BTW, I saw the new Rode blimp at NAB and liked it a lot. Here's a link to it at B&H: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/579335-REG/Rode_BLIMP_Blimp_Complete_Windshield.html

[Paul Hazlett]

wow did not know the Rode ntg-3 was that much, maybe the ntg-2 will be a little more iin the range.

[Matt Uhry]

I might need to raise my budget - at a certain point it make sense to just get the sennheiser 416 and not have second thoughts about it.

M

[Yannick Hagman]

I've been told that NTG-3 is on par with 416, but it has a slightly bigger pick up pattern. Makes it better for indie-work/working with non audio-people.

$500 isn't possible to have good audio. It will cost 2k$ upwards. I would buy a good mic with a rode blimp and rent the boom/recorder/mixer.

[Hans von Sonntag]

Matt,

I don't like the 416. It has a certain coke bottle feel and is too directed for most applications, IMO. Schoeps sound great, are lightweight/small, sufficiently directed without distorting sound-space the and for many sound recordist the first choice. The Russian Octavias aren't bad either, more or less a sucessful copy of the Schoeps, if I recall correctly. They are considerably cheaper.

The 416 is great for news, it's sturdy and pretty directed and good at fishing statements but heavy and needs a huge wind jammer. For anything else I wouldn't take it.

Hans

[Hans von Sonntag]

Asked my soundman:


The Cooke S4:

- Schoeps MK5. It's both in one Mic: You can switch from shotgun to omnidirectional,

- Schoep MK41, pretty narrow shotgun.

Both mics need a amp. and the wind jammer W20R. Schoeps are not cheap but like lenses will hold value.


The RPPs:

Oktava are cheap. Check www.oktava.com. There are many out there who find that the Russian made Oktavas are close to the best (Neumann and Schoeps). They are a bargain. The Oktava MK012A might be the best bet you can find. Prices: LESS than 300 USD!

Hans

[Rob Castiglione]

Hans you are right on the money.

Schoeps is in my view definitely the gold standard. For film work, I use the hypercardiod - MK 41. It is has got such a nice natural sound. I agree with your comments concerning the 416 though I do use it for outdoor work in difficult situations. The Schoeps MK5 is a bit of specialty mic in my view.

The Schoeps are expensive and if you cant go in this direction Oktavas are terrific. You can get an Octava modified by Michael Jolly which contains the preamp, and three capsules (hypercardiod, cardiod and omni) for about one third of the cost of the Schoeps. These were never intended for outdoor work but can certainly be used in a blimp with a good suspension. Again, superior sound.

The absolute best cheapest shotgun out there is the Rode NTG-1 and its battery powered equivalent (the NTG-2?) which is unbelievable value and which certainly give you broadcast quality sound.

[Pawel Achtel]

Anyone used these?

http://www.globalmediapro.com/dp/A00VN4/Globalmediapro-M-203-Shotgun-Condenser-Microphone/

http://www.globalmediapro.com/dp/A00VL8/Globalmediapro-M-201-Shotgun-Condenser-Microphone/

[Sanjin Jukic]

Australian mic Rode NTG3 rocks.

Also is very robust and usable in all different weather/climate shooting situation.

"It's not a puddle and it's a hunter dog..."

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Another vote here for the NTG3. The NTG2 is also nice if you want to save a bit more money, I own both.

The NTG3 is very similar in performance to the Sennheiser 416 and the NTG3 does have a bit wider pick-up pattern, so that's something to consider if you really want to focus in on a subject, but the NTG3 seems to have a little better response on the low end. Personally, I think it's a great mic (vs. the 416) for a bit less than half the money.

The Schoeps mics are my favorites, but too expensive for me as I'm not a pro sound guy. The Oktava that Hans mentioned above are excellent for the money. However, there seems to be inconsistencies in their manufacturing and the tonal response isn't that consistent from one capsule to the next (talking about comparing same model capsules). Or at least that's the report I've heard from a few sound guys I trust. And they still recommend the Oktava MK012 because it's a total bargain and an overall good performer given the low price. It is THE indie microphone.

[Liam Hall]

Don't think it's going to be under 500us. I am looking for the same setup but with all the accessories you mentioned...Well, take a look

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/563847-REG/Rode_NTG_3_NTG_3_Ultimate_Shotgun_Microphone.html

That seems incredibly expensive. I bought the exact same set-up for less than half what B&H want. I'd suggest shopping around or importing, particularly now the dollar has recovered.

I bought mine here:

http://www.proav.co.uk/Audio-Equipment/Microphones-Microphone-Kits/Shotgun-Microphone-Kits/p19197_sc969.aspx

[Stelios Kokotos]

Another vote here for the NTG3. The NTG2 is also nice if you want to save a bit more money, I own both.

The NTG3 is very similar in performance to the Sennheiser 416 and the NTG3 does have a bit wider pick-up pattern, so that's something to consider if you really want to focus in on a subject, but the NTG3 seems to have a little better response on the low end. Personally, I think it's a great mic (vs. the 416) for a bit less than half the money.



I own the 416, NTG-2, NTG-3 and the globalmediapro mics. To my ear the 416 and the NTG-3 are pretty similar with the qualities mentioned by Jeff. The NTG-2 is also an excellent mic but not in the league of the 416 and NTG-3.

The globalmediapro mics have given me nothing but trouble, generating intermittent broad spectrum noise at the worst possible times. When they are working they sound fine, but I have essentially replaced them with the NTG-2s which are super reliable.

[Jason Hemmerlin]

I might need to raise my budget - at a certain point it make sense to just get the sennheiser 416 and not have second thoughts about it.

M

I'm a sound guy and more apt to spending the money on the better gear, but if you spend the 1G on the Sennheiser 416 you won't be disappointed. I've had one for about 6 years now and use quite often. It sounds great and is built like a tank. You could almost use it to defend yourself if it came to that. (not that I a m recommending to do so) It's well worth the cost. I've read about sound guys using their 416's in some of the worst conditions where the mic got drenched. It did crap out, but it took a long time, and you had to do was let it dry out and it would work fine again. We're talking about situations where you wouldn't think about using your camera even if you had a rain cover for it.

The ME66 isn't bad either, but it's definitely not as sturdy as the 416. Haven't tried the Rode. I love their Studio mics, but can't speak for the field stuff.

J. Hemmerlin

[Jason Hemmerlin]

Matt,

I don't like the 416. It has a certain coke bottle feel and is too directed for most applications, IMO. Schoeps sound great, are lightweight/small, sufficiently directed without distorting sound-space the and for many sound recordist the first choice. The Russian Octavias aren't bad either, more or less a sucessful copy of the Schoeps, if I recall correctly. They are considerably cheaper.

The 416 is great for news, it's sturdy and pretty directed and good at fishing statements but heavy and needs a huge wind jammer. For anything else I wouldn't take it.

Hans

If he is ever going to mount a mic on his camera than anything like the schoeps isn't going to be ideal. It'll be way to wide of a pattern and is mush too sensitive to be placed on a camera. The Schoeps is so good at what it does, that any minute sound the camera or the operator might make will be picked up. The price isn't worth it for any mic that you're going to put on a camera. He's better off with a decent and slightly wider shotgun that isn't going to break the bank. It's not always about the best quality microphone, but the best microphone to do the job.

J. hemmerlin

[Scott C.]

Rode is the Red of the audio world, lots of bang for the buck. :) I love my NT2s and will definitely look at the NTG3. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Dave Blackham]

We deal in specialist audio in our of our departments and now proudly rent Red.

The Audio Technica 897 or Sennsheiser ME66 should be considered. We have a few ME66 here, most have been repaired in their time over 6 years or so they work well but are no 416 or MKH60. We have 30 MKH mics mosly 60's and MKH416 not one has been returned for repair in 20 years excepting when a yak stood on one and that didnt stop working it just was a peculiar shape. Neither have any of our Schoeps mics failed on us. With mics you do get what you pay for in robustness and they do hold their value like good lenses.

We dont have an Audio Technica 897 but my broadcast collegues speak very highly of them for out door work. We reliable and sound natural with out too much coloration.

Two things to consider that have not been mentioned yet. The most important characteristic to consider is the polar pattern and how well controled it is and if the mic phases on pans. The other is how well it stands up to evironmental conditions. An MKH416 will work down to -40 and up to +60, Ive done this in tests to verify and expirinced conditions in the wilds in real situations. Also in very high humidity some mics stop working.

Also think stereo, consider using an MS pair. So pair your cardiod/Hypercardioud mic with a figure 8 mic. if you do propose working stereo this don't get a hypercardioid mic that is to tight. It will ruin the stereo.

[Peter Arnold]

I bought a Rode NTG-3 two weeks ago.
Just as good as the Sennheiser 416 I rented so far.
Worth every penny.

Peter

[Karl Lohninger]

There is a reason why the 416 is THE microphone out in the field. Please note 'out' as it should be used mostly in exteriors (or larger interiors). It not only sounds excellent, it'll last a lifetime and will always work. Buy a used one or, hell, buy a 415T (you'll need a cheap 48V to 12V ab tingamajic) and save a few hundreds!

Schoeps, as we all know is excellent and probably a bit over qualified. But if you do, the mk41 is the right capsule and definitely not the MK5.

The Rode NTG-3 (I haven't used it so far) is a copy of the 416 and, if copied well, should be as good as......

The Sennheiser ME (66) line is a budget line and sounds like it. Buy if you can't afford something better.

Oktavas are cheap but not recommended for field use - there's definitely handling noise issues. BTW, as good as Schoepses are, I don't leave house without a backup as they tend to react to humidity every now and then.....!
Excellent mics and to be found for incredible low prices on fleabay is the AKG series 460/480 together with a CK63! OK is the AT 4053. There's also some copy of the 'schoeps' from Shure, I forgot it's name though.

And, because that was mentioned too in this thread, it's not at all difficult to windshield a Sennheiser 416 - why would it? You can go for a full 'rycote-style' windshield. Funny to call it that as 'rycote' actually copied this design themselves - or you go, and that's recommended for your uses, and get some kind of 'flurry' that's just slipped onto the microphone. It's easy put on and off, doesn't cost no arm or leg, and generally does the job.

Final advice: go get a used Sennheiser 415T (to be found as low as 300 bucks!) and with the rest and a little bit added get a sound devices 302 audio mixer and a nice pair of headphones and you're there!

[Evin Grant]

I have a particular affinity for Sennheiser MKH-50. I think it's the warmest and fullest mic you can get for dialog. It's all they used on ER. It is not as long or narrow as the 416 and doesn't need to be aimed quite so perfectly but for cinematic work you want to be within 2 feet anyways for really good dialog. If you're primary concern is outdoor audio get long throw but for cinema nothing beats the 50 IMHO.

[Tim Whitcomb]

Guy Cochran from dvcreator did a shoot out that you might find helpful as he specializes in testing low budget gear

Click here for SHOOTOUT (http://www.dvcreators.net/shotgun-shootout/)

I found the Senn's the best sounding to my ears and we use ME-66 for ultra low and 416 for a film with budget.

Horses for Courses for sure. But since your thread was all about budget. Hope you find this helpful.

Not sure what its for, but for that $, I'd just hire a great sound guy who already has a kit.

[Ismael Diaz]

I'm looking for a Shotgun Mic too but I want mine on camera. I did some research and I found one the Shure SM89... but that thing is like 20" long and I don't know if its a good idea to stick that on the RED one... Any suggestions?

[Peter Moretti]

I have a particular affinity for Sennheiser MKH-50. I think it's the warmest and fullest mic you can get for dialog. It's all they used on ER. It is not as long or narrow as the 416 and doesn't need to be aimed quite so perfectly but for cinematic work you want to be within 2 feet anyways for really good dialog. If you're primary concern is outdoor audio get long throw but for cinema nothing beats the 50 IMHO.This is EXCELLENT advice that should not be glanced over.

The 416 is "the" mic for soundstage environments or outside (like Karl has already said). But if you are on location shooting inside untreated rooms, then a Schoeps CMC641, an MKH-50 or MKH-8040 (gets my vote b/c of its small size, light weight and huge frequency response--you need to use a mixer w/ a good low cut/high pass filter or forget this mic) are some the best choices.

For outdoors or in a controlled enviornment, then an MKH-416 or MKH-60 are great choices. The 416 is a little warmer, the 60 has less noise and hence a little longer reach.

Of course you can use a 416 in untreated reflective room w/ normal height ceilings, and it will sound good. But the other mics will sound better in most cases.

[ericyoung]

For internal work, I've heard very good things about the Sanken CS3e too - but it's as expensive as a 416.

[Douglas Underdahl]

I tested the CS3 and the 416. They were both excellent at rejecting camera noise (this was for a 35mm film feature). The CS3 sounded more neutral, with the 416 warmer. I went with the used 416 at $500 instead of the new CS3 for $1,400. I sent the 416 to Senn and they checked it, said it was fine sent it back, no charge.

Everything said here about the 416 goes for me - tough, sounds great, a real workhorse. But it's very directional, meaning there's a steep fallof, and unless talent is on mike (the boom op is placing the mic correctly) they will sound off. This is the proximity effect. It still is THE choice for a lot of pro film use but you'd better have a good boom op to run it, because if he points it at her shoulder it won't sound right, and most beginners seem to think sound comes out of human appendages. Drives me nuts. I spend so much time reaching out, grabbing the mic, putting it in the correct position. Big mistake to think that anyone can boom. As one sound guy said, it's not about holding a boom, it's about placing a microphone. Real science to it especially considering that actors and cameras move and mics create shadows . . .

So a more forgiving mic, that is, one with a broader patter and less proximity effect like maybe the CS1 or Schoeps would be better for inexperienced boom ops. I think the CS1 is smaller and weighs a lot less, too.

Also there is a mic company called MBHO that makes Schoeps clones for half price, I think, if they are still in business. Former Schoeps engineers.

I might try the Rodes you guys mention. Would be nice to have a wider pick up pattern mic at a good price.

In the end, the 416 just has that rich Hollywood feature sound - great for women's voices. But it's not easy to use.

[Dave Blackham]

I tested the CS3 and the 416. They were both excellent at rejecting camera noise (this was for a 35mm film feature). The CS3 sounded more neutral, with the 416 warmer. I went with the used 416 at $500 instead of the new CS3 for $1,400. I sent the 416 to Senn and they checked it, said it was fine sent it back, no charge.

Everything said here about the 416 goes for me - tough, sounds great, a real workhorse. But it's very directional, meaning there's a steep fallof, and unless talent is on mike (the boom op is placing the mic correctly) they will sound off. This is the proximity effect. It still is THE choice for a lot of pro film use but you'd better have a good boom op to run it, because if he points it at her shoulder it won't sound right, and most beginners seem to think sound comes out of human appendages. Drives me nuts. I spend so much time reaching out, grabbing the mic, putting it in the correct position. Big mistake to think that anyone can boom. As one sound guy said, it's not about holding a boom, it's about placing a microphone. Real science to it especially considering that actors and cameras move and mics create shadows . . .

So a more forgiving mic, that is, one with a broader patter and less proximity effect like maybe the CS1 or Schoeps would be better for inexperienced boom ops. I think the CS1 is smaller and weighs a lot less, too.

Also there is a mic company called MBHO that makes Schoeps clones for half price, I think, if they are still in business. Former Schoeps engineers.

I might try the Rodes you guys mention. Would be nice to have a wider pick up pattern mic at a good price.

In the end, the 416 just has that rich Hollywood feature sound - great for women's voices. But it's not easy to use.

All great points. MBHO make very good mics, they make an outstanding large capsuel mic great for a commentary mic similar in character to an older AKG 414EB.

If you want a less expensive MKH 416, look for a MKH 415 which is the former version. Many are T powered and converters can be found to power them.

There is also an extremely useful MKH 435 microphone. Same generation as a 415 but has a shorted tube on it so is more like a MKH50 in polar pattern, perhaps a little tighter. It hyper cardioid. They are rare and worth getting if you find one available. If you really must park it on top of the camera then its more suited than a 415/416, but regard placing it there as an insult to the microphone and the subject you pointing it at.

The other issue with hypercardioid mics (including most short gun mics) is they have a backwards pointing lobe so is perfectly suited to hear the grunts and breathing of the cameraman and the camera noises. If you were to imagine a clock and 12 represents the forward facing capsule then the off mic area is about 4 to 5 and 7 to 8 o'clock.

One of the most compelling reasons to use the older MKH mics 416's etc is they are very robust, virtually immune to humidity heat, cold and so on. nothing else comes close. Even the new range of MKH mics (30/40/50/60/70) is not so robust but does sound better and has a much lower noise floor. The down side to a 416 is that it does phase on pans. Just pan is in wind or with any form of traffic or sea shore and you'll hear it.

[Alan Skinner]

Matt, have a look at the Audio Technica 897. It has everything you are looking for and was recommended to me by BJ at Custom Supply when I needed something along the lines you requested. It's been a great mike and can be used with an internal battery or phantom, your choice. It's around $260.00.

BTW, I saw the new Rode blimp at NAB and liked it a lot. Here's a link to it at B&H: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/579335-REG/Rode_BLIMP_Blimp_Complete_Windshield.html

I got the 897 and the new Rhode blimp. Makes a nice combo. Very nice mic for the $$.

[Dave Blackham]

I'm looking for a Shotgun Mic too but I want mine on camera. I did some research and I found one the Shure SM89... but that thing is like 20" long and I don't know if its a good idea to stick that on the RED one... Any suggestions?

Well if compare it to a Gefell M73 which is even longer then if may be OK. There are a few M73 in the former east Germany where they were very popular with the Stasi for 'eves dropping'. The make good snare drum mics which is a far better use for them.

[Adam Clark]

since the ntg-3 was brought up in this thread - rode has a promotion now that if you buy an ntg-3, you get the blimp for $1. i think it goes to the end of the year or while supplies last. i bought one and i gotta say, it's a great mic.

[Douglas Underdahl]

As I understand it there is also a 405 or 406 mic which is like the 415 416 but shorter with a wider pattern. Tried to buy on ebay years ago but got outbid. The 416 is noisier than the later Sennheisers but they just couldn't discontinue it because it is so popular. T powered (12V) versions are cheaper but all the cameras and mixers around today put out phantom 48V so you need an extra box which is sort of a pain.

You can use that rear lobe sensitivity of shotgun mics as an on camera mic for you, the cameraman. Speak into the back of the mic to ask questions of the on camera talent. It works.

[Dave Blackham]

As I understand it there is also a 405 or 406 mic which is like the 415 416 but shorter with a wider pattern. Tried to buy on ebay years ago but got outbid. The 416 is noisier than the later Sennheisers but they just couldn't discontinue it because it is so popular. T powered (12V) versions are cheaper but all the cameras and mixers around today put out phantom 48V so you need an extra box which is sort of a pain.

You can use that rear lobe sensitivity of shotgun mics as an on camera mic for you, the cameraman. Speak into the back of the mic to ask questions of the on camera talent. It works.

The 405 and 406 are great cardiod mics.