Red Major Motion Pictures

[zak forrest]

when will the films shot on Red Betas be announced?

[Jay A. Kelley]

when will the films shot on Red Betas be announced?

Because of your title I thought THIS was the announcement...

:ranting2:

Jay

[Jannard]

RED will be used more on the "Wanted" set as we come out of engineering hold. New cameras leave for Prague tomorrow.

Steven Soderbergh has given permission for me to say that he will shoot "The Argentine" and "Guerrilla" on RED. That's assuming we can get him cameras on time! :-)

There will be a couple of other announcements as soon as we get permission from the studios.

Jim

[Jay A. Kelley]

That's very cool Jim! Great news. Are these shoots happening within the next couple weeks for your beta test, or are those other shoots?
Jay

[zak forrest]

RED will be used more on the "Wanted" set as we come out of engineering hold. New cameras leave for Prague tomorrow.

Steven Soderbergh has given permission for me to say that he will shoot "The Argentine" and "Guerrilla" on RED. That's assuming we can get him cameras on time! :-)

There will be a couple of other announcements as soon as we get permission from the studios.

Jim

wawaweewah! awesome

[Jannard]

SS's 1st movie begins shooting mid July. He will be shooting cameras with minimum features.

Jim

[Jay A. Kelley]

You know Jim, that's a very good choice for RED.. Those movies, and the director behind them really say something specific about your camera.

To get Peter Jackson, "Wanted" and then Steven Soderbergh really hits almost every end of the film making spectrum.

Well done
Jay

[Adam C Lubkin]

I think the Soderbergh news is great because he usually DPs his own movies (and he's really good at it) and because (according to wikipedia) there will be lots of handheld (which will be a good test of the ergonomics of the cage/rails and should provide excellent feedback for final tweaks of it.

[Emanuel A.]

I second those comments even if I'm not the typical SS's movies lover. But this point around the director/DP shall be "the" most important in any way other than as positioning RED ONE as the perfect indie tool choice. Our* fight too.

EDIT -- * As reservation holder(s) and further customer(s).

[Yash Keough]

Wow great news! Just saw Ocean's 13 the other day. Haven't seen a ton of Soderberg's stuff but what I have seen (with the exception of Ocean's 12) was pretty good! I'm really excited to see what people do with this camera.

[regista]

I'm specifically interested in RED's performance in extremely hot and humid environments. If there'll be a production going on under these kind of conditions, I'd really like to know how well RED does in it. Please post such information, if possible.

One of our projects in early development now would be set in the South Pacific. There's no substitute location we can use in its place as a proxy. So, in preparation, I'll be taking our RED down to Puerto Rico for testing shortly after delivery. If it works well there through summer, it ought to do well on location out there on the atolls, specially during what would be their winter season.

I know Haskell will be shooting in Cuba. And I'm sure others will be shooting in adverse weather conditions all over the globe at one point or another. I'm confident everyone here would appreciate it lots if fellow RED operators post their ongoing experiences in that respect right here on REDUSER. Burning hot or freezing cold alike. Doesn't matter. Bruce, Gibby, TJ, Jeff, Paul, Eirik, David, Keith, PoiBoy, Balaji, Miltos, RED TEAM, et al... you know who you are. You're prone to encounter such conditions. We're all counting on you to share your findings here. It'll help us all. Perhaps even save our cameras (and our butts) in the process. That's what we're here for, right?

Also, if someone manages to find or develop a viable solution for bare bones underwater RED operation, even if its only for a few seconds at a time within one atmosphere, I'd surely like to speak with you. Please PM me if necessary.

Thanks all in advance.

Cheers!

[Brook Willard]

Steven Soderbergh has given permission for me to say that he will shoot "The Argentine" and "Guerrilla" on RED.

Now that's some news... :)

[Steve Gibby]

I really like that news about Soderbergh. I like his movies, but what I really respect about him is that he has spread his skill sets to having the ability to do multiple tasks if he chooses - directing, DP, and cinematography.

A point of trivia on Steve Soderbergh: he began his filmmaking career producing/directing/shooting surfing films in the late '70's/early '80's. Right from the start he showed good talent for capuring aesthetics and telling the story.

His early surfing films: "A Matter of Style" (1980), "Ocean Fever" (1980's), and "Ticket to Ride" (1983). In the mid to late '80's he started making the transition to feature films.

Long before Soderbergh hit the "big time" he was a grassroots indie filmmaker. I'm not surprised Steve Soderbergh is interested in RED. With Soderberg’s alternative sports filmmaking roots, that paralleled the time frame of the development of Oakley, and Jim Jannard being the founder of RED, it seems like a perfect fit for collaboration.

-----------------------

Regista,

I produce, direct, and shoot worldwide, and most of my productions entail significant amounts of shooting in the elements: alternative sports, adventure travel, nature, cultures, and documentaries. You can rest assured that me and my crews will be torturing the heck out of my RED cameras. Beyond that, you also know that I have been posting heavily on RED boards since RED was announced. That will never cease. I will be posting my impressions of my RED cameras, lenses, and accessories from all over the world from the point I get the cameras onward.

I've also recently formed a new production company with Ken Corben ("Sharkguy" on RED User), and we have a feature movie and several HDTV series in development for 2007-08. You know the genres I shoot in, and you also know what his specialty is, so yes, we will be having custom housings made by Mike Hastings ("aquavideo2006" on RED User) as soon as we receive our RED cameras. We'll be splashing cameras daily, and also shooting with stabilization units (possibly ActionCam), mini-jibs, a remote control helicopter, vehicle mounts, POV shots, and many other uses I can't describe because of NDA. We'll be shooting at the Poles, the tropics, and everwhere in between. I believe nobody on the planet will be using RED One cameras in as difficult environmental circumstances and for as many unusual camera angles and setups. The end result of pushing the cameras so much is that we will have some excellent feedback for RED and this forum, which we will post regularly.

[regista]

I believe nobody on the planet will be using RED One cameras in as difficult environmental circumstances and for as many unusual camera angles and setups. The end result of pushing the cameras so much is that we will have some excellent feedback for RED and this forum, which we will post regularly.

Awesome, Gibby. Your input will be invaluable, no doubt. Will be looking forward to it all, specially the U/W housing experience.

Thanks!

[Bruce Allen]

I'm confident everyone here would appreciate it lots if fellow RED operators post their ongoing experiences in that respect right here on REDUSER. Burning hot or freezing cold alike. Doesn't matter. Bruce, Gibby, TJ, Jeff, Paul, Eirik, David, Keith, PoiBoy, Balaji, Miltos, RED TEAM, et al... you know who you are. You're prone to encounter such conditions. We're all counting on you to share your findings here. It'll help us all. Perhaps even save our cameras (and our butts) in the process. That's what we're here for, right?

Can't wait to share info. At least one rental company will have 5 Reds in South Africa, from what I hear. Chances of them being "tested" amidst baking heat, dripping humidiy, mud, dust, angry animals and of course torrential rain are high, especially since in South Africa, all of the above often happen during the same day ;) I have some friends who practically live out in the bush. I am trying to convince them to buy Reds. They don't have the cash yet, though...

I agree that ability to survive in adverse weather is a key thing... I was checking out the Kobold HMIs at Cinegear in LA today and thinking how nice it would be to have those back in SA with me.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[IAN SUN]

RED will be used more on the "Wanted" set as we come out of engineering hold. New cameras leave for Prague tomorrow.

Steven Soderbergh has given permission for me to say that he will shoot "The Argentine" and "Guerrilla" on RED. That's assuming we can get him cameras on time! :-)

There will be a couple of other announcements as soon as we get permission from the studios.

Jim

Fantastic, I can't wait to see those films, featuring two of my favorite REDs.
I think I'll don the red Che hat I wore to NAB.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/228_1182657324.jpg

[C.H.Haskell]

Great news here!

Regista

I guarantee that we will also share and post all info and results of our Cuba RED experience. I will make it my mission post a full diary, podcast, blog...what ever it takes to publish results and data from day to day. Although the shoots will be scheduled and planed, it is Cuba after all so I am expecting plenty run and gun, lots of natural light in an extremely humid and often Hot tropic environment.

I will not receive my RED until 08 so in the meantime I look forward to what Gibby and many others here experience, specially in these extreme environments.

:)

[Keith Alan Morris]

Soderberg is the perfect guy to use the Red. If it has to be a studio guy, I'd want him. He does great indies for the love, and big sellout Hollywood films to pay the bills. I've seen all his work and like almost all of 'em. Bubble was amazing. I expect alot of "au naturel" footage from him so we'll see how the camera does in real world situations, largely unlit. Plus, his turnaround for his smaller films is fast.

[zak forrest]

I will be posting my impressions of my RED cameras, lenses, and accessories from all over the world from the point I get the cameras onward.
----- The end result of pushing the cameras so much is that we will have some excellent feedback for RED and this forum, which we will post regularly.



can't wait for that... thanks gibby

[Keith Alan Morris]

and i'll be shooting a feature in Honduras in the hottest time of the year. its so hot there, it feels like the sun is literally PUSHING you down. so i'm really interested in how others do in hot climates before me, too.

we should make a list of those res holders who are shooting early (say 2007) in extremely hot/cold environs.

[Bruce Allen]

I'll also be interested in the effect of heat on sensor noise.

It'll be funny if the guys in the antarctic get a much better signal to noise ratio and we all end up carrying around portable camera fridges to match their clean images ;)

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I heard Freddy Got Fingered 2 was going to shoot with the RED, any truth to that rumor?

haha, just kidding.

[Jannard]

There is no question that heat is the enemy of any sensor. Take a white umbrella, a fan, anything you can to keep any digital camera from over-heating. Some climates are just not sensor friendly. But you can do it. You just need to be aware of the limits of digital and prepare for it.

Jim

[Bruce Allen]

There is no question that heat is the enemy of any sensor. Take a white umbrella, a fan, anything you can to keep any digital camera from over-heating. Some climates are just not sensor friendly. But you can do it. You just need to be aware of the limits of digital and prepare for it.

Jim

Jim, we do not doubt you! Now when are you guys going to be in LA when it's not during work hours? I looked for you guys at CineGear today. Didn't find you. Sad.

Cheers

Bruce

[john4321]

Jim move on...well done!

[Ken Hendricks]

Watch out for that Soderbergh guy! Canon made a big deal about him shooting "Full Frontal" with their XL1S cameras until they actually saw what he did with them.

The rottentomatoes.com critical consensus calls "Full Frontal" "A confusing movie made worse by the poor camera work." I know a lot of people like Steven Soderbergh's movies, but I can't stand his "style".

[Mardi_Gras]

Can't wait to share info. At least one rental company will have 5 Reds in South Africa, from what I hear. Chances of them being "tested" amidst baking heat, dripping humidiy, mud, dust, angry animals and of course torrential rain are high, especially since in South Africa, all of the above often happen during the same day ;) I have some friends who practically live out in the bush. I am trying to convince them to buy Reds. They don't have the cash yet, though...

I agree that ability to survive in adverse weather is a key thing... I was checking out the Kobold HMIs at Cinegear in LA today and thinking how nice it would be to have those back in SA with me.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
Bruce, tell me, what Rental companies in SA are you referring to? I know I'm one of the early adopters of the Red camera here in Cape Town, but I'm not sure how many more rez holders we have here at the moment.

It will be interesting to see how my camera performs in the middle of summer (Nov/Dec in the Southern hemisphere) which is when I hope to get mine. We have several features lined up in various stages of prep and even having most of the financing hinged upon our delivery of the RedOne.

What a camera!

EDIT: On a lighter note, tell me Bruce, what parts of South Africa are you describing up there? Not where I live, I can guarantee you that.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Yeah Full Frontal was a terrible piece of trash. I like Soderbergh, actually, he's made some really good films, that just wasn't one of them. That movie was total garbage and I have never seen a movie on the big screen with such pathetic resolution and unbelievably bad picture quality.

They shot 28 Days Later with the same camera and it looked totally professional, and Soderbergh did it and it looked awful. I'm not sure what happened.

Anyway, as Bart Simpson would say of that movie, "I never thought it was physically possible but this both sucks and blows."

I'm looking forward to his work with the RED, though, he is a good filmmaker I think and it'll be interesting to see.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I want to take RED on a Rainier summit expedition. With the current shipping schedule it doesn't look like it'll be this season so maybe next year. I look forward to hearing feedback on environmental reliability as well.

[Bruce Allen]

Bruce, tell me, what Rental companies in SA are you referring to? I know I'm one of the early adopters of the Red camera here in Cape Town, but I'm not sure how many more rez holders we have here at the moment.

(Cough) I heard a relaible rumor that DigitalFilm (www.digitalfilm.co.za) had ordered 5. Hope they're not pissed at me for spreading it further and that they view it as free advertising instead. Anyway, they're very nice people, I have rented from them multiple times and they always take time to help you with the camera, etc. Talk to Frank. Let's hope they still like me and will rent to me!



It will be interesting to see how my camera performs in the middle of summer (Nov/Dec in the Southern hemisphere) which is when I hope to get mine. We have several features lined up in various stages of prep and even having most of the financing hinged upon our delivery of the RedOne.


I am betting it will be great. We don't really worry about cooling our DSLRs (even though it has been proven that they work much better when cold), so I am hoping it will be fine.

Good luck with the features, and if you need some referrals to other Red-aware, digital-savvy South Africans, let me know.



EDIT: On a lighter note, tell me Bruce, what parts of South Africa are you describing up there? Not where I live, I can guarantee you that.

Yeah, Cape Town is much better weather-wise.

I am thinking more KwaZulu-Natal or Jo'burg / Gauteng. A crazy day in the bush, with a nice afternoon thunderstorm.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

My dad was going to visit South Africa earlier this year, but because of my mom's death he didn't end up going. I did this homework assignment once where I had to plan a trip to South Africa and it got me really excited about actually visiting one day, haha, it seems like it'd be really fun.

[Mardi_Gras]

(Cough)



Yeah, Cape Town is much better weather-wise.

I am thinking more KwaZulu-Natal or Jo'burg / Gauteng. A crazy day in the bush, with a nice afternoon thunderstorm.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

We live in Blouberg. This is Cape Town from my balcony, with the Table mountain in the background.

[Bruce Allen]

My dad was going to visit South Africa earlier this year, but because of my mom's death he didn't end up going. I did this homework assignment once where I had to plan a trip to South Africa and it got me really excited about actually visiting one day, haha, it seems like it'd be really fun.

Very sorry to hear that about your mom. PM me when you do decide to visit SA, though...

Now I am getting totally OT. Uh, what can I offer? Um, I looked up sensor noise due to heat and the only quantitative analysis I have found so far is on DPreview, where they tested to see if using the live view function on a Sony still camera increaded noise at all:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscr1/page16.asp
"Effect of heat build-up from live view (over time) on noise

One thing we were concerned about was the build-up of heat in the sensor due to the live view. To test this we took a sequence of noise tests at two minute intervals. Between sequences the live view was constantly maintained. Below ISO 1600 there is almost no difference, at ISO 1600 we saw a small spike near the end of the test. At ISO 3200 we can see a very slight increase in noise but this fell away at the end of the test (camera modifying noise reduction level to compensate for sensor temperature?)."

But that is not very good at all. Anyone have tests of Stouffer wedges with the camera heated to different temperatures?

Oh damn, I just read the original topic of this thread and realized I am still probably still way off topic. Going to sleep now. Sorry, all.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Casey Green]

RED will be used more on the "Wanted" set as we come out of engineering hold. New cameras leave for Prague tomorrow.

Steven Soderbergh has given permission for me to say that he will shoot "The Argentine" and "Guerrilla" on RED. That's assuming we can get him cameras on time! :-)

There will be a couple of other announcements as soon as we get permission from the studios.

Jim

If you need any help with these field tests...I'd be happy to dedicate my time to the event... :)

[Sanjin Jukic]

We live in Blouberg. This is Cape Town from my balcony, with the Table mountain in the background.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=785&d=1182674072

Amazing! Inspirational point of view at the edge of the continent. Somehow it's good to start a film about Africa from there.

[Mardi_Gras]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=785&d=1182674072

Amazing! Inspirational point of view at the edge of the continent. Somehow it's good to start a film about Africa from there.

Thanks, Sanjin. This is Robben Island (notice the Lighthouse in the distance), also from my balcony's perspective. Nelson Mandela was imprisoned here for 27 years by the Apartheid (white minority) regime before being released in 1990.

I hope to shoot some nice 4k footage from the Island, his cell room etc...

[Mark Crabtree]

I shoot mostly in Texas where the sun is a big problem causing overheating in black cameras. It's been talked about here before, but black is really more of a vanity color than a functional one. You can always put some black fabric over a white camera if you see it reflected in the surface of a car or glass. I'd much rather have a white camera I can take outside on a sunny day than a black one that overheats. It's hard to deal with umbrellas in the wind. I have two reds on order, #100 and number ?. What are the chances for factory white paint option by the years end? It would be great to have a black one for the studio/interiors and nights and a white one for a sunny day.

[Jannard]

I shoot mostly in Texas where the sun is a big problem causing overheating in black cameras. It's been talked about here before, but black is really more of a vanity color than a functional one. You can always put some black fabric over a white camera if you see it reflected in the surface of a car or glass. I'd much rather have a white camera I can take outside on a sunny day than a black one that overheats. It's hard to deal with umbrellas in the wind. I have two reds on order, #100 and number ?. What are the chances for factory white paint option by the years end? It would be great to have a black one for the studio/interiors and nights and a white one for a sunny day.

Why don't we wait to see if there really is a problem 1st? Peter Jackson shot Boris and Natasha in the NZ sun for two days straight and they were on A LOT! They never got hot once. Now, admittedly we are enabling more features, but I think the problem will only be a potential issue in extreme conditions.

If you want white, we'll consider a special paint at an increased cost (not sure what that means right now). But before we ever did something like that, I'd want to measure the effectiveness of the color change.

Jim

[PaulClements]

What about a red Red jim?

[zak forrest]

Watch out for that Soderbergh guy! Canon made a big deal about him shooting "Full Frontal" with their XL1S cameras until they actually saw what he did with them.

Yeah Jim you better watch out for that dude... wtf

[Mardi_Gras]

I'll also be interested in the effect of heat on sensor noise.

It'll be funny if the guys in the antarctic get a much better signal to noise ratio and we all end up carrying around portable camera fridges to match their clean images ;)

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Depending on how well the RedOne performs under extreme weather conditions (hot/cold), there's always the option of this...

http://www.edn.com/blog/1470000147/post/30010203.html?nid=2432&rid=1357995328

... for the desert shooters.

[donatello b]

in reference to Full Frontal ... you shoot for the project NOT to show off a camera ... Steve S made a decision about the "look" and i'm sure he never set out to make a bad movie ... whatever project he's working on now i'm sure he feels he has a good project .. at some point he'll decide on The Look ( some of that could be in post) and then he'll go with it ...

unless you have a contract that states he'll only show a "good" movie ( good based on certain standards ?) and he'll make it "look good" for the camera ? ... if not then he's going to do what he thinks is best for the movie ...

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

What about a red Red jim?

Yeah I like that idea ;) Maybe an alternate neon green one, that just screams quality. I think everyone on set would realize the elite nature of your camera if it was neon green with maybe neon orange dots on it. ;)

[Mark B.]

Black camera bodies aren't just for looks, the darker body won't show in reflections as easily as a white camera body.

[Antoine Fabi]

I would not expose RED (or any camera) to temperatures that would make film melt...

White umbrella is al rule.
...essential for ther crew in certain circomstances anyway.

[Stephen Williams]

Black camera bodies aren't just for looks, the darker body won't show in reflections as easily as a white camera body.

Hi,

Black will absorb more heat. The US Military had most of their Mitchell's painted white.

Stephen

[Oskari Sipola]

Don't diss Soderbergh, he's a genius - and proves that by swinging some misses. Show me a director that doesn't and I'll show you a wuss.

Personally I found Full Frontal very interesting and never dull, filled with little insights and cleverness (which I usually find irritating but not now). It was especially amusing to see some people leave the theater when the opening credits of the movie-within-the-movie came up. Some people just can't hold their post-modernism :) Soderbergh is one of the most personal and intriguing directors currently working. I'm very much looking forward to these movies - especially now!

Overall this is very exciting news and an another selling point for future customers - "hey, Soderbergh's doin' it!"

[Sanjin Jukic]

Thanks, Sanjin. This is Robben Island (notice the Lighthouse in the distance), also from my balcony's perspective. Nelson Mandela was imprisoned here for 27 years by the Apartheid (white minority) regime before being released in 1990.

I hope to shoot some nice 4k footage from the Island, his cell room etc...


A great inspiration is to start to shoot a movie in Tanger (Morrocco)
and go through all Africa's labirints and to finish movie in Capetown with Tablemountain (SA).
A feature of documentary, it depends, somebody could choose.

[Bruce Allen]

Yeah I like that idea ;) Maybe an alternate neon green one, that just screams quality. I think everyone on set would realize the elite nature of your camera if it was neon green with maybe neon orange dots on it. ;)

Put red or maybe even 1eet blue LEDs on it. And a large aluminum wing. Then bolt it to the top of your Civic, connect it up to the in-dash DVD player for monitoring, then rocket through LA at full speed pursed by police, and sell it as the first, best, 4K police chase ever. Just let everyone know a day ahead of time so that we can stay off of the roads.

Come to think of it, I've never really had much of a problem with the Civic folk. It's usually the angry SUV people that are the menace.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Green would be perfect.. The cameras would blend into greenscreen work or they would be easier to roto out in post. Maybe that's what we need... A green camera and a set of green socks/sleeves to fit various lens options, green mattebox and other gear. ...No, I'm not exactly serious here.

If you guys think black absorbs heat, try shiny chrome or polished steel or aluminum finish. I like the shiny aluminum look of some of the prototypes, but that isn't going to happen.

I thought the US military used light grey for most of their cameras and sensitive field gear that got painted???

[Mark Crabtree]

Thanks Jim for responding to my post. I would have made this one final point sooner but I had to go out right after I posted. I agree that this heat issue is currently an unknown and who knows, it "may" not be a problem in "any" situation, however, if you have ever spent a hot summer in south Texas you would have experienced common temps of 111 degrees with humidity over 90 percent. When the ambient temp is that high any additional heat generated by the internals of the camera can easily compound the problem to the point of issues showing up in the camera's electronics. I have a varicam and in this worst case I have seen noise issues so severe in the image that I had to power up just to get the shot and then power down to cool down between takes. Panasonic suggests using chemical ice packs but with the high humidity it's a huge water generator. I don't want to short out the camera either. I remember reading an article some 20 years ago in Popular Photography about Olympus making a small run of white OM-3's. A staff photog took it to the beach on a hot day along with a black one to see if there really was a marked difference. What he found, besides the the black camera being so hot it was uncomfortable to hold, was that the cameras internal led display stopped functioning at the hottest part of the day. The white camera was not only cool to the touch but behaved just as it normally did in a cool environment. The Photog wrote the article and concluded it with something like "maybe they should make all cameras white." Of course I'm not suggesting that, but if you know you are going to be regularly subjecting your camera to such extremes then this white color idea just might be worth doing.

[Chris Forbes]

Will these cameras be doing principle photography or fx and 2nd unit?

[Policar]

From what I gather, he'll be shooting the first two features with the new cameras... While this is awesome (because he is an incredibly talented and innovative director), I'm a bit concerned about what this means for Red's image.

First of all, Soderbergh tends to stress the peculiarities of whatever medium he uses. Full Frontal was supposed to be a marketing platform for Canon's XL1s, but the movie's aesthetic stressed the difference between film and video. And the stuff Soderbergh DPs has a very "un-Hollywood" look. He rated Ocean's 11 at 1200ISO and used almost entirely natural light.

While my favorite digital movies are those that work uniquely well because they were shot digitally (Sin City, etc.), I don't see how this camera will gain acceptance through such unconventional stuff as Soderbergh's. The real coup will be high gloss productions and "film look." (Though Superman Returns and its fuzzy digital "film look" impressed me less than Apocalypto, I will admit...) Still, this is kind of exciting, but I'm hoping some non-maverick directors will jump on the bandwagon, too.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Never heard anyone say that about Superman Returns, it was a beautiful look, most people criticized the film for whatever shortcomings they thought it had, but as far as it looking any different than 35mm film, it didn't. It's a great example of how you can make digital look cinematic.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

From what I gather, he'll be shooting the first two features with the new cameras... While this is awesome (because he is an incredibly talented and innovative director), I'm a bit concerned about what this means for Red's image.

We already had this same discussion here in this thread, so I merged these couple posts. I don't see what this matters to RED's "image". Obviosly, Jim is doing this by his own will and if he's fine with it, so am I. Like him or not, Soderbergh has his own style and should be able to provide valuable feedback to the RED team.


First of all, Soderbergh tends to stress the peculiarities of whatever medium he uses. Full Frontal was supposed to be a marketing platform for Canon's XL1s, but the movie's aesthetic stressed the difference between film and video.

I really doubt Soderbergh cared about Canon marketing with the XL1. Canon tried to market the crap out of the use of their flagship prosumer camcorder on a major film production. By my thinking, it's probably the lowest common denominator camera he was willing to use on the production to get the look he was after.


And the stuff Soderbergh DPs has a very "un-Hollywood" look. He rated Ocean's 11 at 1200ISO and used almost entirely natural light.

Hmmm... I haven't heard that, but haven't paid attention to the details of Ocean's 11 either. But I thought there was still plenty of "Hollywood look" to it. The studio/producers (wasn't this Weintraub Co.?) chose Soderbergh and I would say he did well for them. The movie made a profit and spawned sequels. It's fine if you didn't like it.. The movie didn't do it for me either, but that isn't the point.

[Mark L. Pederson]

I'm a bit concerned about what this means for Red's image.

One film will not damage Red's image.

There are really bad looking films on every format - I have seen some 35mm that looks worse than well shot Varicam.

There's going to be MANY, MANY movies shot on RED - very quickly. Studio films, low budget indies, commercials and music videos.

There will be stuff that looks AMAZING and stuff that looks HORRIBLE. Just like every format.

As long as they ship the cameras soon - their image will be just fine.

[donatello b]

from what i recall ... Steven has a deal with HD net/magnolia films to do either 3 or 6 movies .. budgets around 3mil each ...
the 1st movie was BUBBLE ( shot on HD) ...
perhaps this is the 2nd ????? if YES - then i would think he's going to go with a small crew ( like bubble) ... use as much available light as possible ...
and use RED to it's limits (& beyond) ... so for those that plan to use RED in available light ( or small lighting package) this could be a good project to keep a eye on the results ...
then it might not be a HD net project ?

[Craig Schober]

from what i recall ... Steven has a deal with HD net/magnolia films to do either 3 or 6 movies .. budgets around 3mil each ...
the 1st movie was BUBBLE ( shot on HD) ...
perhaps this is the 2nd ????? if YES - then i would think he's going to go with a small crew ( like bubble) ... use as much available light as possible ...
and use RED to it's limits (& beyond) ... so for those that plan to use RED in available light ( or small lighting package) this could be a good project to keep a eye on the results ...
then it might not be a HD net project ?

i wouldn't be surprised if this affiliated with hdnet. didn't mark cuban make a pledge to acquire and/or upgrade hdnet content all in 4k in the near future? talk about future-proofing with red...

[Jeff Kilgroe]

i wouldn't be surprised if this affiliated with hdnet. didn't mark cuban make a pledge to acquire and/or upgrade hdnet content all in 4k in the near future? talk about future-proofing with red...

Yeah there was a comment to that effect a few months ago... I think it was referring to the HDNet Films entity and not their broadcast network, but it wasn't that specific. Cuban doesn't have that much influence with the HD.net broadcast studio these days -- it's primarily operated out of Colorado Studios here in Denver. Once RED delivers their complete end-to-end 4K workflow to the market I think we'll see a huge shift over the next couple years. A lot of currently HD-sourced material will shift to 4K. Broadcast formats obviously will be a long time changing -- we still can't even get 1080p or even full raster 1080i in most cases.

[Rudi Herbert]

[QUOTE=offhollywood;53940]One film will not damage Red's image.

There are really bad looking films on every format - I have seen some 35mm that looks worse than well shot Varicam.
There will be stuff that looks AMAZING and stuff that looks HORRIBLE. Just like every format.

Agreed, but Policar is right too. Soderbergh is really not somebody that flatters whatever format he's using, to the point where in Full Frontal, I walked out of the theater, the quality being so bad that it just took me right out of the story. Which was not that strong either. And if you consider that Spike Lee managed much more acceptable resolution out of little Sony VX-1000's, and that 28 days looked immesurably better on the XL-1, I would agree that Soderbergh will be just a famous name to add to RED's list, and that's important, but if he comes up with something as mediocre as Full Frontal, then yes, I think it could have some sort of impact on RED's perception. But this is inevitable.

I think that Crossing the Line is actually being misused, as Jackson is the maverick of all maverick directors and somebody who is known for being as acutely concerned about story telling as technical expertise to express it. And you already have a full 14 min film in the can, which I would make available for download, sell it on HD-DVD and Blu-Ray and basically get it out there in as many ways as possible. Which of course, presents many concerns in terms of whether he would be happy or willing to let his film be used as a "free" marketing tool for RED, but as a tool to promote this wondrous new tool for film makers from all levels, his film is revolutionary. If only he agreed to let RED really get it out there for all of us to see and analyze, it would do wonders for many of us.

That's dreaming out loud...

Rudi Herbert

[M Most]

Never heard anyone say that about Superman Returns, it was a beautiful look, most people criticized the film for whatever shortcomings they thought it had, but as far as it looking any different than 35mm film, it didn't. It's a great example of how you can make digital look cinematic.

Then you likely didn't read very many reviews or ask many opinions. If anything, the look of that picture was heavily criticized, and even more so on the video release, which was very artifact laden and had many odd color effects as well. Personally, I didn't mind it, and Tom Sigel happens to be an old friend, but my opinion seemed to be in the minority.

[Steven M. Bailey]

Never heard anyone say that about Superman Returns, it was a beautiful look, most people criticized the film for whatever shortcomings they thought it had, but as far as it looking any different than 35mm film, it didn't. It's a great example of how you can make digital look cinematic.

At the beginning I thought the look was good, but by the time I got into it, I was so disgusted by the crap they called a story that I forgot about how it looked and started looking at my watch.:sick: I remember thinking that the effects work looked too plastic for my taste. Some thing that I never felt about Spiderman, X-men, Pirates....Etc. I gave it two thumbs down and broke wind in its general direction.:whistling:

[Adrian Correia]

[QUOTE=offhollywood;53940]One film will not damage Red's image.

There are really bad looking films on every format - I have seen some 35mm that looks worse than well shot Varicam.
There will be stuff that looks AMAZING and stuff that looks HORRIBLE. Just like every format.

Agreed, but Policar is right too. Soderbergh is really not somebody that flatters whatever format he's using, to the point where in Full Frontal, I walked out of the theater, the quality being so bad that it just took me right out of the story. Which was not that strong either. And if you consider that Spike Lee managed much more acceptable resolution out of little Sony VX-1000's, and that 28 days looked immesurably better on the XL-1, I would agree that Soderbergh will be just a famous name to add to RED's list, and that's important, but if he comes up with something as mediocre as Full Frontal, then yes, I think it could have some sort of impact on RED's perception. But this is inevitable.

I think that Crossing the Line is actually being misused, as Jackson is the maverick of all maverick directors and somebody who is known for being as acutely concerned about story telling as technical expertise to express it. And you already have a full 14 min film in the can, which I would make available for download, sell it on HD-DVD and Blu-Ray and basically get it out there in as many ways as possible. Which of course, presents many concerns in terms of whether he would be happy or willing to let his film be used as a "free" marketing tool for RED, but as a tool to promote this wondrous new tool for film makers from all levels, his film is revolutionary. If only he agreed to let RED really get it out there for all of us to see and analyze, it would do wonders for many of us.

That's dreaming out loud...

Rudi Herbert


I have to agree with Rudi....with Soderbergh and Jackson you have the opposite ends of the hollywood spectrum and each could be pointed to in reference to the appeal of Red. These two together really give wide range of perspective to what Red has to offer cinema....I know when I get asked about Red one of the first things people ask me about is Peter Jackson's short. If anything....the other productions that are using Red will only add to its validity in the eyes of the industry.

[donatello b]

little info on the 2 movies ...

CAST:Benicio Del Toro, Javier Bardem, Julia Ormond, Ryan Gosling, Franka Potente

http://www.ioncinema.com/movie.php?id=1672

there is a book at amazon called The Argentine that the movie is based on ...

http://www.amazon.com/El-Argentino-Pelicula-Soderbergh-Publishing/dp/1921235489

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Then you likely didn't read very many reviews or ask many opinions. If anything, the look of that picture was heavily criticized, and even more so on the video release, which was very artifact laden and had many odd color effects as well. Personally, I didn't mind it, and Tom Sigel happens to be an old friend, but my opinion seemed to be in the minority.

That's actually not true at all. You have no idea what you're talking about -- very few critics mentioned its look as being distracting at all, in fact very few critics focused on that and focused more on the quality of the actual picture. Also, despite a minority opinion I've noticed from film snobs who didn't like the story (I thought it was great), the film was very well received. From Wikipedia: "The movie has been well reviewed by most critics. It has been a "Certified Fresh" film on Rotten Tomatoes, with 77% overall approval from critics, and a 73% from the "Cream of the Crop".[25] The film also received a 72% on Metacritic."

Just because a few snobby cinematographers think they're geniuses whose criticism is the be-all, end-all of criticism, your statement is completely wrong. The film's look was hardly ever questioned, it actually looks beautiful, and I've heard MANY in the film industry say the same thing. There were no problems with its picture whatsoever. The only problems were on set using that camera, but when they were worked out, the final product was just as crisp as any 35mm film, if not more so.

This also from Wikipedia: "Reaction to the image quality on Superman Returns was much more positive. Jeff Otto praised the film's clean sharp look and bright color, and found it fitting for the subject[4]. In an important milestone, most reviewers found the film's look sufficiently film-like that the movie's digital origins did not rate comment [5]. Reviews concentrated instead on typical elements such as cast and plot."

Do your homework next time.

[Vincent Rice]

If you seriously want to work in this business Jonny me boy and not live off your "investments" you are going to have to learn how take criticism and learn to respect the opinions of those who are better informed and more experienced. At this point in time that seems to be pretty well everybody.

[Shane Betts]

On the subject of black versus white cameras for heat, I do know that (in stills land) Nikon and Canon tend to make their long telephotos in white or grey (or offer the option) to minimize focus shifts with so much metal between front and rear elements to expand and contract.

On the other side of the ledger, I used to sell stills cameras to the Australian Antartic Division for use at the pole. They all had to have black cameras because the silver ones would stick to their faces. The only way to get them off was with warm liquid. Now, where do you suppose you would get warm liquid when you're miles from anywhere in a frozen land? Ew...

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

If you seriously want to work in this business Jonny me boy and not live off your "investments" you are going to have to learn how take criticism and learn to respect the opinions of those who are better informed and more experienced. At this point in time that seems to be pretty well everybody.

With all due respect to your derogatory tone, I very much doubt your understanding of film history or criticism is anything approaching my level. I have studied film for quite some time now, I've written two books on film history, I've contributed an essay to a third published book, and I've written numerous essays on various film-related topics for a variety of sources.

I lack the least important element of filmmaking, which is the technical know-how. Trust me, I can and will learn that. If I couldn't, I could still hire people to do that for me provided I have the vision of what I want to see on screen. What I have is a very strong fundamental understanding of what makes for good storytelling and the aesthetics of filmmaking, so don't sit here and try to tell me that everyone here is better informed. They may have more experience making movies, but that doesn't make them any better qualified to judge them than I am. I come from a large background in film history and criticism having studied the subject at university and on my own for many years now. I've done years of research both with books and movies to be where I am today, so just the same as I would not disrespect your experience in the industry, don't disrespect my experience as a critic and film analyst.

Also you are a very poor debator. Don't debate with a philosophy major, you can't hold your ground if you're going to use ad hominum attacks rather than actually addressing the points made. My experience or inexperience is completely irrelevant to this argument, which was focused on whether critics thought Superman Returns looked good, and looked film-like, and I provided hard facts and research to back up what I said. You, however, resulted to personal attacks, showing not only your poor skills as a communicator but your insecurities because of your losing position in this argument.

You may either refute what I said with facts, and give me some reviews that prove your point, or you can admit you are mistaken, but I know that'd be a large step to take when it would be much easier to just make more personal attacks.

Have a nice day.

[Jason Murphy]

Back to Soderbergh's defense for a moment. He may have had the odd self-reflexive misfire here and there (though Schizopolis is hilarious, even more so with Criterion DVD commentary), and when shooting on the cheap or on the fly, his images may not be particularly beautiful (and are occasionally downright ugly), but by and large that's the exception to the rule. Overall, he's an incredibly talented and intelligent director (Out of Sight, The Limey, Traffic, and Solaris, anyone?) and a damn fine DP. For all the crap that Full Frontal gets (probably deservedly, since it's essentially one long Soderbergh in-joke), just remember that he also DP'd Traffic, Solaris and Oceans 11-13, each of which have very beautiful and effective looks, and all of which show a very different visual style. Hell, even The Good German looked pretty fantastic, even if it wasn't a particularly good remake of The Third Man in Casablanca. :)

Solaris in particular has gorgeous lighting and camerawork, and is a really great film, even though maybe a whole 10 people saw it when it came out in theatres.

The films he's made that tend to not flatter their respective media (16mm for Schizopolis, DV for Full Frontal and HD for Bubble) are the little no-budget experimental films he's made between larger projects. The Argentine and Guerilla are pretty major pictures, being released by Focus/Universal (and originally to be made by none other than Terrence Malick) so these definitely don't fall under the no-budget indie category, and I have no doubt that Soderbergh will end up making a pretty gorgeous movie with the RED.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I would agree with you, Jason, I think despite my dislike for Full Frontal that Soderbergh is quite a good director, and I saw Solaris in theaters and really enjoyed it. That's my kind of movie.

[Daniel Gourley]

You may either refute what I said with facts, and give me some reviews that prove your point, or you can admit you are mistaken, but I know that'd be a large step to take when it would be much easier to just make more personal attacks.


Follow your own advice. When you say "filmaker snobs", where are the factual names and the quoted criticisms to support your unbiased opinion?

Many here have discussed the plastic look of Superman even Bgundu on DVXUSER who did some of the FX for Superman complained about the plasticity chosen by the producers as a final look.

Jonathan, said it before and will say it again. You come across as an A$$. Learn from those around here and benefit from their knowledge. Its not a forum bent on elitism.

If you want that , go to Cinematography.com!

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Whatever, I don't care to argue with you. It's not worth my time. If that's how you feel about the film, you're certainly entitled to it, but most people I've heard either liked the movie and its look or didn't like the movie but never mentioned or knew that it wasn't shot on film.

I don't see how I come across as being an ass for pointing out the facts. It was never under debate whether there are people who don't like the look of Superman Returns, I'm sure that is true, and that's all fine, but I was just objecting to the idea that most people seem to have a problem with it, which is patently untrue. If you don't like the facts, I'm sorry, I didn't create them. I just was relaying information. That's it.

[Daniel Gourley]

If you don't like the facts, I'm sorry, I didn't create them. I just was relaying information. That's it.

I don't dislike facts Jonathan, I do dislike how you "relay" them. It seems that you like to push your "knowledge of cinema" on people who never questioned you about it. The people here are mostly professionals who sharpen each other and gather information from each other with mutual respect.

Those on this forum who are the most gifted and esteemed in the industry carry themselves with humility, not an air of superiority like you present to those around you.

You have stated that you dropped out of film school because they were closed-minded about Red and the future. You claim that all filmmakers who shoot on film and enjoy it are relics and snobs.

I personally have never shot film and have always acquired digitally. I don't think I would ever want to because that is my preference, but I still respect those who do and try to learn from them as much as possible. Just like I am NOT an ENG guy like GIBBY or a photographer like EVIN, I learn alot from each of them, (i.e. Gibby's integrity and helpfulness, Evin's throuroughness and Lens advice.)

They are not relics or worthless, just different. As are you. Temper yourself and you will go further than your talent alone could ever take you.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Well, pretopost, I am deeply sorry you feel that I am not humble about wanting to learn as much as possible, because I do feel there is much to learn from everyone here.

I definitely have respect for anyone here, but I don't think calling into question my knowledge or what I've read is mutual respect, personally. I feel that's actually kind of rude.

I've never claimed people who shoot on film are relics or snobs, but I have claimed that people who insist film will always be better than digital are closed-minded and ignorant. They are ignoring the facts based on an emotional decision, which is illogical. But there's nothing wrong with people who enjoy shooting on film, movies have been shot on film since the dawn of the medium, so it's not a big deal. As long as I can shoot on digital, it doesn't hurt me if they want to shoot on film.

I do think that most people will eventually adapt to digital, because of an easier workflow, quicker results, and better quality images in the future, but that doesn't mean film is obsolete as much as film is just going to be another choice among many. It depends what you are shooting, what look you may want, but more and more I think it'll be possible to get whatever look you want with a camera like the RED, altering the footage in post if necessary.

Again I'm sorry if what I have said has offended you, pretopost, because that was not my intent. I am here to learn.

[Daniel Gourley]

Good to know.

[Brook Willard]

Everybody needs to take it down a few notches. If you guys have outstanding personal disagreements, feel free to take it up with each other via PM.

This thread was dead pages ago.