RED #8 testing team & some details

[Steve Gibby]

Those who have been following various threads on RED User the past few months know I've organized a team for independent testing of RED #8 in Los Angeles the Los Angeles area immediately after I receive the camera. More info will be released as we get closer to the delivery of #8, which is now scheduled for August 30. As Jim Jannard noted, that delivery date could still change. The point is, #8 will be tested immediately after delivery of the camera. Here is some info on the testing of #8:

Overview
We'll test both cine-style and EFP style setups, scores of lenses, accessories, etc. Impressions and results will be posted on RED User, HD for Indies, and some magazine articles I'll write. Various news outlets have requested information about the testing, and interviews with the testing team members. I’ll have unlimited time to work with the camera system after the testing sessions, so I will personally take a mostly hands off position in the testing, and rather let the team do their thing. I’ll shoot DSLR stills of the team at work, and I am producing the testing. The tests will not be a shootoff against other camera systems, but rather real world shooting and testing of a production RED One camera system with as many setups and lighting conditions as we can fit into 2 days, then a technical analysis of the results.

Team
Evin Grant has accepted my invitation to direct the testing. The team is highly experienced and diverse in their backgrounds. As of now, the team members who have accepted invitations are: Me, Evin Grant, David Mullen ASC, Charles Papert SOC, Matt Uhry, Ken Corben, Haakon, Brook Willard, Alexander Nikishin, Ralph Oshiro, Daren Findling, and Jeff Kilgroe. There will also be an ace FX guy and a veteran camera technology guy, both of which will remain un-named until after the testing sessions when the results are published. I'm excited about the skill set and experience composition of the team - cine, EFP, still photo, editors, FX, camera technology, specialty cinematographers, etc. Nobody is being paid for their time spent testing – they’re donating their time, something I deeply appreciate. It’s hard matching team member’s work schedules against the testing days, so it may happen that some of the team members won’t be able to attend both days, or attend at all. We’ll cross that bridge when we come to it. We’ll have a list of reserve testers we can call on as replacements, should a team member be unable to attend. If initial team members have to drop out for scheduled work, reserve list members will fill their team places.

Facility
For equipment security and crowd control purposes, the location of the testing facility will be kept secret until after the testing, when the results are published on RED User and elsewhere. The testing facility will be identified in the posted and published results of the testing. A great Los Angeles area production/post production company has donated their facility for the 2 days of testing - very cool, and very appreciated. The testing team members have yet to be told where the facility is located. Before they are told the location, they will be placed under a non-disclosure agreement. Please don’t pester them for information. They will not be free to give you any info about the testing facility or its location.

Testing Parameters
More info will be released as we get closer to the testing dates. In advance of the testing, I'm having each team member submit their Wish List for parameters, setups, lenses, and accessories to test on the camera. We’ll accommodate as many of those suggestions as possible within the testing time constraints. Me and Evin will be approaching this testing the same as when we individually produce motion media projects – an organized testing schedule analogous to the shooting schedules used on the set or in the field. That way we’ll have a good chance of getting through all the testing and analysis we have on the testing schedule. Testing team members will be asked to use all their varied skill sets, to be unbiased, analytical, and objective - while also paying close attention to aesthetics and artistry.


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Summary
Nobody has asked me to organize the testing of RED #8. It was completely my own idea, and I’m donating my camera and time as I produce the testing sessions. As a purchaser of two RED One camera systems, I’m obviously curious about the hands-on results, strengths, and limitations of the system. Though I’m well qualified to test the camera myself, I feel that there is no better way to quickly answer my questions about the camera than to assemble a diverse and talented group of professionals, and then team test it. That way, the results should have a lot more dimension and depth than just myself testing out the camera. After deciding on a team testing of the camera system, the next logical thought that came to my mind, was this: Rather than horde the results and knowledge gained from the testing among the team alone, why not post it so that the rest of you who are hungry for real-world, hands-on feedback on RED One can share in the results. That was an easy decision for me. Anyone who has followed the development of RED One since it was first announced, should also know that I have continually stepped up to mentor, advise, and inform this board and others about the tech and business principles of the motion media industry, and specifically share what knowledge and insight I may have about RED and RED One. It’s been fun for me doing that and I’ve learned immensely from many of the rest of you. This testing is an extension of that symbiosis: I’m sharing this testing with you – and I’m sure you’ll be sharing your ideas and results over the coming months and years ahead with me. I’ve been very fortunate to get an early reservation number so I’m spreading the benefits around this board to all of you. If many of you were in my position, I seriously think you would do the same thing.


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Note: I'll be on location today shooting some television programming. Shortly after putting this thread up I have to head out for today's shooting. Later tonight I'll visit RED User and be happy to then answer any questions posted on this thread.

Cheers! :biggrin:

[Bruce Allen]

Good luck Gibby. Look forward to the tests. When you think the Red is ready to be tested against my HV20, let me know ;) I'll bring a Stouffer chart...

Cheers

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[JohnF]

That's brilliant Gibby. Thanks for doing this.

May I suggest a test or two?

JohnF

[Darwin]

Gibby,
Thanks, I for one am very grateful that your taking time to do this. I look forward to the results of all you tests. Looks like a good team.

[Steve Gibby]

Thanks guys...yes, suggestions welcome! As mentioned, I'll be polling the testing team for their testing suggestions. Me and Evin will then boil down all the suggestions into a workable testing schedule. We'd like to have the time to test everything in fine detail, but a 2-day schedule simply won't allow that - plus #8 needs to go on location for some scheduled projects. We'll test the "biggie", logical areas and setups, be thorough, and post our results.

That should get everyone started with real-world results, but I'm sure many others will also be posting their impressions of the camera system when they get their hands on theirs and put it to use. I''ll be posting progressively over the coming months and years as me and my crews use my RED camera systems around the world.

[Adrian Correia]

good luck Gibby and crew!

[PaulClements]

Sounds great Gibby, looking forward to it. Will you be listing the specific tests you will be doing before the event? Perhaps feedback from other users might highlight areas you haven't anticipated (Though I find it doubtful). Great stuff.

[Steve Gibby]

Definitely I'll post more info as we get closer to the testing sessions...

All suggestions welcome...

I'm out of here right now to shoot the TV programming I mentioned..

:bye2:

[Sanjin Jukic]

Gibby, great team. Cannot wait to read about all the test(s).

[Sam Druckerman]

An equally brilliant and generous idea, that will serve all of us here at REDuser.

I've been very excited about, and looking forward to this test session since you first mentioned it, Gibby.

My confidence in you and the most excellent test team you have assembled couldn't be any higher.

A BIG thanks in advance to Gibby, and the entire Test Team for .....

Donating your time, equipment. Doing the first public critical evaluation on using a RED. All of which making it that much easier for the rest of us to hit the ground running when our Red's arrive.

This is one of the reasons why I spend so much time on this board, there are some really, really great people here.

[Yash Keough]

It's always well appreciated when others put their time into doing things that benefit the community as a whole. Thanks in advance Gibby and good luck! :-)

[Craig Bowman]

Outstanding contribution Gibby. Something else to look forward to while I wait for October. Knock Wood. (Ouch my head!)

[Casey Green]

Excellent... we would expect nothing less from you. :)

Looking forward to the results... thanks again.

[johannperry]

Thanks for your inspiring and generous approach to the Red project Gibby.
You set a great tone for the board and the red community as a whole. I'm sure you'll have fun with the tests, can't wait to hear the results.

[Brook Willard]

Looking forward to it, Gibby... :)

[Ramesh Jai]

I am sorry but am I the only one who read the 'TENTATIVE' in the scheduled release dates announced by RED?

[Gunleik Groven]

Nope.

You're not, but we can still make plans for when the camera arrives, whenever that might be.

That said, as Gibby is the third person who ever gets his hands on a production-Red (after jim and Offhollywood), it would not be unreasonable to speculate that he will eventually get some update on his tentative schedule rather sooner than us around the 1000's...

Highly speculative comment, though, I know... -;)

Anyways Gibby: Looking foreward to hear your feedback!
You are - as we all mention - a great resource for this site and the whole community!

Gunleik

[Ben Ponce]

Gibby's awesome....

[Matt Uhry]

I'm Looking forward to it, thanks.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Don Woods]

Good luck Gibby, I look forward to what you guys find out.

[Keith Nealy]

Thanks for running point on this Gibby.

We'll follow your lead. And thank you team members for contributing your time and expertese.

You will help launch this system and save all of us much time and hardship by walking the bleeding edge and holding RED to the fire.

the few... the proud... the brave...

There's gotta be a movie in this somewhere... :detective2:

aloha,

Keith

[Jared VanLeuven]

Steve,

My 2 cents: test the over/undercrank/timelapse features, and any slowshutter sweetness with the timelapse. Best of success on the testing, man. And remember, I've got this 7-layer jell-o just sittin' here waiting for you... :)

[Evin Grant]

It's gonna be a blast! I can't wait.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

My 2 cents: test the over/undercrank/timelapse features, and any slowshutter sweetness with the timelapse. Best of success on the testing, man.

It will be interesting to see if or how much of the frame rate and shutter settings are enabled in RED #8. Hopefully variable rates and shutter speeds will be there.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Gibby,

I also have access to RED #47.

If a two cam scenario would allow for more setups/tests to be performed, I'd be happy to arrange the goods.

Come to think of it, one cam could be doing the standard chart testing and the other shooting live action, ideas?

[Eugene]

I've organized a team for independent testing of RED

Evin Grant has accepted my invitation to direct the testing.

team members who have accepted invitations are:...Haakon, Brook Willard...and Jeff Kilgroe.

How independent is this test if the testers are mainly moderators of this site: Evin Grant, Häakon, Brook Willard, Jeff Kilgroe?
Why not include Ivan Kragoff?


Nobody is being paid for their time spent testing

Nobody has asked me to organize the testing of RED #8. It was completely my own idea

I'd rather have a test done by Jarred Land. I know he works for RED and is on the pay roll, but at least he is up front about it.

[David Mullen ASC]

Anyone who works for RED (like Jarred) has already been testing the camera in various stages for the past year... so I'm not sure what the point would be in asking them to conducts more tests for users who are receiving their own cameras, as opposed to the new owners now testing the cameras for themselves.

Usually when a new camera comes out, it's up to the users to put them through tests, a few designed to discover the camera's "breaking points" -- how it handles extremes in exposure, for example, like in a super low-light situation.

Companies who build these cameras generally don't release the results of such worst-case scenario tests themselves since it does not show their product at its best and therefore may confuse the public. However, the typical user will want to know if they can go out at night and rate the camera at 2000 ASA or higher and get decent results. They'll want to know when it burns out to white or goes to black, etc.

All I'm saying is that the type of tests that users do tend to be different than the type that companies shoot and release to the public.

Besides, I'm sure Jarred must be very busy over at RED...

Surely, Eugene, you aren't suggesting that someone like Gibby not test his camera when he gets ahold of it?

[donatello b]

well i think most of us just plain and simply will believe Mr. Gibby ( & team) ...
we've read his post over the year and we have a gut feeling about his character ... i have no question that he'll speak the results good & bad - straight from the hip - up front ...

as far as the rest of the team ... well just like the film business - if Gibby says this is the team then i'm with them and do not have any doubts about the test ...

also remember many test are very subjective and some are just the test charts ...

[ChristopherKenworthy]

Sounds fantastic, and can't wait to see the results. In another thread, Jim was warning us to point fans at the camera and keep it under an umbrella if it's a hot day because of the risk of sensor noise. Any chance you can go outside, let the camera get really hot, and see how it affects sensor noise? I ask, as I'll be shooting outside in Australia a lot of the time, and won't always be able to set up a whole rig of cooling devices around the camera.

[David Mullen ASC]

All tests, anyone's tests, are never definitive -- they always have to be taken with a grain of salt ("your milage may vary..."). It has nothing to do with honesty or competency or anything like that, just that there are too many variables involved for any test to be the final word. Looking at someone else's tests does not relieve you of the burden of shooting your own tests.

But they are interesting and informative, and can allow you to design your own tests better.

[C.H.Haskell]

Best of luck folks...will be standing by for all these invaluable test!

cheers

[Matthew Greene]

Hypothetically speaking here of course... If there was a big negative discovery and/or impression of the camera, do you guys feel that you could remain unbiased and would you publicly disclose the information? I just had to ask because that's essential for the tests to be relevant to the rest of us.

[Ken Corben]

Dude,

I can only wonder what you are thinking by questioning Steve Gibby's integrity with your ridiculous post. Especially by only citing the "moderators" as team members?

Industry veterans the likes of Ralph Oshiro, David Mullen ASC, Charles Papert SOC and ME are integral parts of the test team for #8. I personally used my reputation and industry contacts to secure the testing facility/studio owned and operated by two of the most camera agnostic A-list DP/Producers in our business. There is no promise of a Red Bible from a two day test, HOWEVER, I can tell you now that if my name is attached to this project there will be no sequestered information or company propaganda as inferred by your ludicrous post. Plan well in advance, test hard, be clever, find the achilles tendon of the camera and address the optical options in depth. That is what I signed up for with the tests planned for #8.

I must say that in my mere two decades in the entertainment business I have met fewer than two producers with Gibby's sense of loyalty and level of integrity. This is a man that can not be bought and will never betray a promise, friend or business partner. That is why I chose to form a production company with him to produce a RED digital 3D feature, HDTV series and other as yet to be announced cutting edge RED projects.

Fanboy?

I have never met Mr. Jannard or the RED team, have no affiliation with RED and am certainly not a paid spokesperson for RED - not that they need it at this point. I am a reservation holder because it makes good business sense - fully refundable deposit with interest - DUH. I would echo the sage words of David Mullen here, "the right tool for the right job."

And that is "upfront about it" little buddy.

Sharky

[David Mullen ASC]

Hypothetically speaking here of course... If there was a big negative discovery and/or impression of the camera, do you guys feel that you could remain unbiased and would you publicly disclose the information? I just had to ask because that's essential for the tests to be relevant to the rest of us.

Since it's Gibby's show (and camera), that would be his call... but I would assume that the responsible thing to do would be to double-check any results that seemed unusually poor before on reporting it, to rule out human error on the part of those doing the testing. But if any unexpected poor performance issues could be verified, reconfirmed, I think most of us would be allowed to discuss it honestly and openly, although with the caveat of "your own tests may show different results."

The trick would be to not allow any negative comments to be blown out of proportion or taken out of context. Partly this would be a matter of tone in regards to the reporting.

Like I said, Gibby is organizing this and the results will presented in whatever manner he feels is correct.

If you are worried that the testing is only some sort of marketing gimmick to sell more RED cameras, I wouldn't worry. I wouldn't be involved in the test if I thought that. Besides, there would be no point in hiding anything since over the next year, you're going to be flooded with tests shot by other people anyway. I've found, over the years, that a product can't hide its essential character once it's released to the public. Marketing only works until the day of release, just like when a movie is released to the public -- after that, word of mouth takes over.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Eugene,

Ken (sharkguy) and David said it all very well. I just wanted to add that Gibby has included the REDUSER moderators so that we can get a jump-start with the camera and help answer the impending flood of questions. Besides, we're not just moderators here, we all have various levels of experience and expertise and each of us have something to contribute. I'm about 80% sure I'll be able to attend and participate in these tests and will try my best to do so. I'll be taking time out of my schedule to fly in from out of state to help out the test team in any way I can. All on my own dime. I have no affiliation with RED and have never met Jim, any of the RED team members or members of Gibby's test team in person. I'm doing this out of sheer interest and enthusiasm for RED and what it can offer. I can't wait to scrutinize the footage and comp it with CG and live chromakey or roto elements. My plans for RED mostly lean toward VFX and shooting live elements to be combined with animation. That is where I would like to evaluate the test footage and help out the team. On that note you could just call me selfish in that I'm scoping out my planned $50K plus equipment purchase. Or call me a fanboy if you want, but this is my chance to help the community. Steve Gibby has tried to assemble a very diverse team in order to negate criticism such as this. I really don't know what else could be done to make it more un-biased.

[Evin Grant]

I assure you that I have never been in the employ of Red. I will be donating my time and effort for this endevor just as I did at NAB. I have a track record of camera testing dating back to the original DVX100 that should suffice to eliminate any worry about bias. I was asked by Panasonic after the HVX200 test that Jarred, Barry Green and myself did If I would like to be on the back of the broshure, It seemed like good exposure to me but I was never paid for that little trick either. I have no issue with aligning myslef with those products and companies that produce products I use and believe in but I am not a schill. I do not just vomit up the Coolaid whenever someone asks a hard question. We will push #8 to it's limits and beyond, and we will determine as best is possible in the two days alloted what it is and isn't capable of. We all expect the best, but are by no means willing to comprimise our own integrity for some psudo-allegiance to Red as religion the way some seem to be precieveing us.
E.

[Eric MacIver]

Gibby, thanks for doing this. I sent you a PM. I'm happy to help with time, equipment, locations, insurance, etc.

[pat@hpnc.com]

I really am looking forward to start seeing the first tests from Gibby and others as the cameras start to ship. I am really curios to see how they do.

[Gunleik Groven]

Matthew.

That was way off...

Try again! -;)

Gunleik

[Moir]

Eugene

I'm not sure where that little outpouring of cynicism came from, but I think an apology to Gibby and the test crew is in order. They owe you (or any of us) nothing and you have no reason to question their integrity.

Most of the guys listed have contributed a great deal to this forum and many of us have learned a lot from these contributions. I have every faith that they will give us a "warts and all" report.

But you know what, I seriously doubt there will be any warts. I think we have seen enough of Jim and team's modus operandi to know that they are their own harshest critics, and to know that they would not let a second rate product out the door.

I bet they can't wait for this sort of independent testing, and the sound of jaws hitting the floor when the first owners get to see what the camera can do.

[Milan Nikolic]

Thanks Gibby!

[number6]

How independent is this test if the testers are mainly moderators of this site: Evin Grant, Häakon, Brook Willard, Jeff Kilgroe?
Why not include Ivan Kragoff?




I'd rather have a test done by Jarred Land. I know he works for RED and is on the pay roll, but at least he is up front about it.

Eugene! You son-of-a-gun you... You went against the grain and stirred the pot counter-clockwise, and because of that all these new clarified aromas (statements of defense of how the tests would be conducted and by whom) have upped the status of the brew.

[planet e]

i can't wait. this session will give me some good material to chew on until christmas.

why question a gift horse from our site's premier educator? he could easily have taken his camera and put it to work immediately on his next umpteen projects, but instead he's putting it to work to release info, data, and hopefully, some footage to us. nice. a big thank you to gibby and his team.

i'm hoping that the team can get its hands on the 18-50mm lens or the 300mm lens, so that we can get some feedback on their quality, as well the camera itself. those are sizeable investments as well, and i'd like to get some expert opinions + comparisons to some of their cine and DSLR counterparts.

[Steve Gibby]

First let me thank the members here for their many kind words and voicing of support for the testing. Much appreciated…

I am an independent producer/director/cinematographer. When I produce motion media projects, I always seek to hire above the line and below the line crew that is experienced and talented. Beyond that, the qualities I seek in the project crew are good attitudes, an ability and desire to be a member of a team, and people I like and respect. Beyond the necessary talents/experience, the cohesion of a team can make of break a project. Every production calls for all crew to dance well together – or the project and its results suffer.

In producing the L.A. RED testing I’ve approached the testing team building the same as I would if this was a feature or television program I was producing – as described above. I sought diversity of skills, talent, good attitudes, and the ability to work as a team in each of the people I asked to join the team.

Evin will be directing the testing, and I have great confidence in his ability to do well at that. Speaking for myself, when I direct a production, I rely on the producers to set me up with a talented, good-natured crew as I’ve described above. If they haven’t – I won’t accept the job directing the production for them. In this case, I’m producing the testing, so I’ve done my best to set Evin up with a good team. When I direct, and I will only direct when the team is as described above, I let the team know that I have solid confidence in their ability to do their part as professionals, and I oversee the effort by macro-managing the effort, never micro-managing unless I absolutely have to in order to ensure the quality of the end results. I believe Evin’s style of directing is similar to mine, thus I expect the testing to flow quite well and achieve some accurate results.

To those few on this thread who felt moved to question the neutrality of the testing, please re-read my thread starting post, where I purposely mentioned that the team would have to be unbiased, objective, and straightforward in their approach. I wouldn’t have it any other way, and I’m sure each of them feels exactly the same on that – and I see David, Ken, Evin, and others have stressed their feelings on that. Clear, accurate testing will benefit the members of the team, this board, and RED. That level and quality of feedback, on the heels of the good feedback form the beta testing on features, can only benefit us all.

I’m pleased to announce that after starting this thread yesterday, I have been approached by several other RED One camera reserverists with serial numbers between mine (#8) and 50, who have offered to bring their cameras to the testing session. I think it would be a serious upgrade to the testing sessions to have a few more shipping RED One cameras there. That way, when there are strengths or weaknesses found in the testing, we can easily deduce whether it is a glitch or nuance of a single camera, or if there are strengths and weaknesses common to all of the cameras. I fully expect RED to be good on quality control, and to especially have all the serial number 6-50 cameras closely QC’d before shipping them. By our team in L.A. testing multiple cameras from that first batch, I think we can provide valuable feedback to all of the reservists of that first batch, and again, valuable feedback to RED on how they’ve done in production and QC. That will benefit all later serial number reservists.

Indie Rentals of Hollywood has generously offered to donate lenses and other support to the testing – much appreciated.

We can obviously only test what is enabled on the cameras. Later firmware upgrades will call for another testing session.

I want to again thank the team members for agreeing to donate their valuable time to this testing. It will give each of them a head start on their hands-on knowledge of shipping RED One cameras. As Jeff has accurately described, my strategy in asking several RED User moderators to be a part of the team is to help equip them to moderate this board as the cameras start to ship – something that benefits us all. The more they know, the more they can effectively moderate the board. These mods are all independent pros and they donate their time to help us all – something I deeply appreciate. Guys like David Mullen ASC also donate a lot of their valuable time to instruct this board, and now are stepping up to donate more valuable time to help test the cameras – also much appreciated.

[McDiver]

Gibby, you and your assembled team are very kind to embark on a test like this, and share your insights. It'll take a lot of personal time, and whatever observations you and your team share will be highly valued by those still waiting in the wings, as it were.
Have you included the possibility of sharing some snippets from your tests, for those of us interested in the available color and contrast from Red footage? I know it could take up a lot of server space, but I'm sure I'd be one of many happy to volunteer that for you, if you need it.
Thanks for considering our suggestions. It's very generous of you, and hopefully you will be repaid many times in the future.

Glen

[Finner]

...I purposely mentioned that the team would have to be unbiased, objective, and straightforward in their approach. I wouldn’t have it any other way, and I’m sure each of them feels exactly the same on that – and I see David, Ken, Evin, and others have stressed their feelings on that. Clear, accurate testing will benefit the members of the team, this board, and RED. That level and quality of feedback, on the heels of the good feedback form the beta testing on features, can only benefit us all.


This statement by Steve is something you can all trust.

I am lucky enough to be a member of the testing crew and feel it is easily seen on my past posts that I call things like I see them and don't pull any punches with anyone (Even if that means getting hammered by a bunch of fanboys for my "principal" metaphor.). I look forward to seeing the things the camera does great and try and find the cameras limitations with the rest of the team. No tool can do everything and and learning limitations (or better yet what needs to be done differently in different situations to get the best results with this camera) is one of the key elements to achieving the best work possible with any tool.

It will also be interesting to see what this camera is really really great at. Hopefully if possible a few side by side tests with red vs a 35mm film camera would be great. I have some 5205 kodak vision 2 250asa kicking around which may be a good match as I believe the red was rated best at around the 300asa mark.

But no one should fear as I see a true depiction of the camera comming out from these tests.

Also most or all of the team are soon to be owners so why on earth would any of us want to hide any issues we may discover when testing the camera. It would be very foolish of us to sweep any problems under the rug then to address them and hopefully have them rectified before our cameras ship. I am very excited about my precious 993 and without a doubt want it to be the best camera that it can be.

Daren

[beatniq]

I assure you that I have never been in the employ of Red. I will be donating my time and effort for this endevor just as I did at NAB. I have a track record of camera testing dating back to the original DVX100 that should suffice to eliminate any worry about bias. I was asked by Panasonic after the HVX200 test that Jarred, Barry Green and myself did If I would like to be on the back of the broshure, It seemed like good exposure to me but I was never paid for that little trick either. I have no issue with aligning myslef with those products and companies that produce products I use and believe in but I am not a schill. I do not just vomit up the Coolaid whenever someone asks a hard question. We will push #8 to it's limits and beyond, and we will determine as best is possible in the two days alloted what it is and isn't capable of. We all expect the best, but are by no means willing to comprimise our own integrity for some psudo-allegiance to Red as religion the way some seem to be precieveing us.
E.

Nice website(s)... i see you're a fan of Amon :)

why does it not surprise me that the cool people would be here?

[Alexander Nikishin]

But no one should fear as I see a true depiction of the camera comming out from these tests.

Also most or all of the team are soon to be owners so why on earth would any of us want to hide any issues we may discover when testing the camera.
Daren

Exactly.....

Much of the team, including myself, are RED cam owners and you'd be hell bent to find me not complaining if I felt something about the RED wasn't up to par.

As far as I see it, (Though I highly doubt this course of action will ever see the light of day) if for some reason I am not pleased with RED after testing concludes, I wouldn't be against returning my order and continuing the rental process or waiting for the next big thing.

Ofcourse, I'd present my negative findings first and wait for an answer from RED as to whether there will be a solution to the problem or not.

After all, it's my money and I sure as hell am not going to waste it.

I for one am not a wealthy guy. This camera will be costing me an arm, liver, kidney, and a leg so believe me when I say that you will receive an honest and straightforward review from me as well as from all the other team members.

[Michael Brennan]

I think Gibby putting the camera though its paces is likely to unveil/reveal a set of pros and cons of RED months ahead of what will be discoved on set of the features.

I've been disillusioned and disappointed with many HD tests, certianly the ones paid for by Kodak and Arri that go out of their way to prove what HD can't do!


Generic limitations of performance tend to get targeted and then blown out of proportion and compared to film.

I suggest two groups could test. Those that want to explore what RED can't do and those keen to explore what it can do!


Mike Brennan

[Matthew Greene]

Thank's guys for your responses (even Narcosis guy).

I was in no way suggesting any of you lacked the slightest bit of integrity and I apologize if it read that way. I am aware of who many of you are. The purpose of the question was to understand the handling of any information that could be considered negative, because to me, this is the most useful info that comes from testing. Only by knowing the weak points can we make decisions on how to overcome them by either preparation, technique or plain avoidance.

I am also a reservation holder and an early believer in the product. However, I don't believe any tool is perfect and I just want to know why it's not in order to pull off a better product.

[Michael Schrengohst]

And I am sure Evin will be testing with his Nikons and giving
us a blow by blow on how to change from Nikon to PL mount.
Or if it is even possible to do without a trained camera tech.

[J. Bernard Vallon]

its supposedly a simple allen-wrench process...but that doesnt mean youd want to do it to the field.

[planet e]

gibby or evin: do you know if the birger technology will be ready in time for the testing, and is it possible to include it in the lens set-ups?

i would be willing to volunteer my legendary Canon 200mm f/1.8 to the process (also my 100mm macro, which i would love to have tested against the macro feature of the 18-50mm, if it is available). i also have a 70-200mm f/2.8. and others. do you need production stills? i could offer up my lenses to the testing and take some photos. i don't know if there is a cleaner lens than the 200mm f/1.8. for production stills.

anything to be a fly on that wall!

[REDHKSC]

AGreed Dave, and would RED will issue the test certificate with each RED One signed by the Test Engineers and DPs or + Signature of Mr. J.Jannard etc.

I have got many Gibson and Fenders or Martin Guitars with those quality statements. If this is any quality problems they should pay the responsibility though. They selling their BRAND not Product.

Cheers,

STEWART
HKG / CHINA


Anyone who works for RED (like Jarred) has already been testing the camera in various stages for the past year... so I'm not sure what the point would be in asking them to conducts more tests for users who are receiving their own cameras, as opposed to the new owners now testing the cameras for themselves.

Usually when a new camera comes out, it's up to the users to put them through tests, a few designed to discover the camera's "breaking points" -- how it handles extremes in exposure, for example, like in a super low-light situation.

Companies who build these cameras generally don't release the results of such worst-case scenario tests themselves since it does not show their product at its best and therefore may confuse the public. However, the typical user will want to know if they can go out at night and rate the camera at 2000 ASA or higher and get decent results. They'll want to know when it burns out to white or goes to black, etc.

All I'm saying is that the type of tests that users do tend to be different than the type that companies shoot and release to the public.

Besides, I'm sure Jarred must be very busy over at RED...

Surely, Eugene, you aren't suggesting that someone like Gibby not test his camera when he gets ahold of it?

[Erik Widding]

gibby or evin: do you know if the birger technology will be ready in time for the testing, and is it possible to include it in the lens set-ups?

I spoke to Gibby some time ago regarding this. We will be providing an EF lens mount for use during testing. Based on Jim's latest schedule, this will be a production mount, and a pre-production (possibly production) rail mount knob and/or wireless hand controller.

I will be releasing product details (including features and pricing) on Monday 2 July. We will start accepting reservations at that time.

[planet e]

that's awesome news, thank you for the update, erik. my hope is that the testing team can not only provide feedback on how this will work but also an image or two of it in action (production stills, anyone??), so that we can see for ourselves how it might translate for field work. this gets better and better!

[MikeCurtis]

late getting to this party, had an off-site yesterday...

Gibby - sounds great, looking forward to it! I know you'll run through all this very thouroughly and well.

-mike

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

To everyone working on this test: Thank you very much :weight_lift:

Will the Canon Birger mount be ready by then? Maybe we could FINALLY put the Nikon vs Canon "debate" to bed, eh Evin.. :whistling:

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Nikon v Canon, Mac v Windows, Arabs v Israelis, Red states v Blue states, Video v Film - ahhhh, which will be decided first... None in my frikkin' lifetime.

In any case I will be bringing #19 to the LA REDTest and will keep an eye out for the kool-aid concession ;-)

[Paul Hazlett]

thanks Gibby!!

here is an idea. Could you do some less than ideal testing...low or no
lighting running, low mode with handle, harsh backlights and darker interiors
with windows.

Maybe you already have this on your list, but I thought worth mentioning.

[Steve Gibby]

Thanks for all the suggestions and encouraging words! Those of us who love cameras and technology, which is about all of us on this board, really get amped about the chance to test drive new camera systems. This is going to be interesting indeed!

I’ve asked several other RED reservists with cameras in the first batch to step up and donate their cameras and time to the testing sessions. I’m happy to confirm that we now have four RED One cameras to test at the “L.A. REDTest” (new name for the testing sessions): #8 (mine), #13 (Billy Summers), #17 (Steve Tammi), and #19 (Blair Paulsen).

Jeff, Gavin, Chuck, and Steve will be flying into Los Angeles from other areas of the country, at their own expense, and that is deeply appreciated.

A big thanks to these guys for stepping up to help us out. Having multiple cameras allows us to separate the team up into work groups with different setups, objectives, and task lists. Bottom line is that we can cover a lot more testing ground with four cameras than one camera, and it gives each of the team members more “stick time” with the cameras. It also helps us define if performance and characteristics are just within one camera or if all the cameras share the same attributes.

Gavin Greenwalt (im.thatoneguy on RED User) has stepped up to offer his green screen and VFX skills for the testing. That’s a whole additional dimension of the testing that will add to the results we are able to obtain. Very cool indeed!

Another RED User member, Andrew Benz, thought of, and volunteered to shoot and edit a behind the scenes documentary on the testing sessions, complete with quick interviews with the team members and fly on the wall footage of the testing work. I have accepted that generous offer.

I want to thank Eric Widding of Birger Engineering for stepping up to the plate with the Birger adaptor as he mentioned earlier today. That also gives the team another really valuable dimension to the testing.

A few weeks ago Brian Goff volunteered to send a RED version ActionCam over to L.A. from Switzerland for us to test a RED One on. We will likely have other stabilization units available also. Beyond Charles Papert’s skills as a DP/cinematographer, which we’ll count on, he also has excellent stabilization unit skills, as does Ralph Oshiro.

I’ve also asked lens expert Chuck Colburn to join us, with the stipulation that he leave his dog Jake up in Orygun! He’s coming down for the testing. It will be great to have another longtime veteran on the team.

The L.A. REDTest won't be a camera shootout pitting RED One against other camera systems or against 35mm film. We only have 2 days to test, camera owners need to get their cameras out on real-world productions, and we felt it would be most productive in these first independent RED One tests to concentrate on testing RED One itself, and to use the time to drill down as deep as we can on them. Later on I'm sure someone else will create a shootout scenario and other types of testing, but L.A. REDTest will simply concentrate on testing the performance of shipping RED One cameras.

I hope I didn’t leave anyone out in this update! If I did, I’ll cover their contributions in the next one I post. A big thanks to all these busy professionals for donating their time, talents, and equipment for the testing – and also a huge thanks to the studio where we will be testing for those two days. The big payback for the team, and by proxy the RED User community, and interested persons throughout the motion media industry, is that this independent L.A.REDTest should provide us all with an accelerated knowledge curve for the uses and parameters of shipping RED One cameras.

[Sam Druckerman]

Great news!

It just gets better and better.

Love this community.

[Evin Grant]

This is great, we can cover much more gound and much more throughly this way.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Great minds think alike.

[Paul Hazlett]

I am getting way to emotional about this.....I wonder if this is what having
children is like.....

[Andrew Benz]

Hello Everyone!

I am beyond stoked to get this opportunity! I would like to thank Steve Gibby for allowing me to be apart of this incredible event. I am also very excited to meet this incredible team and document this process for all the great community members that will not be there.

I cannot wait to give back to a community/company that has given me so much over the past 16 months or so... I want everyone to know that I will be working very hard (starting now) to bring this experience home to them in a very meaningful way.

Cheers Everyone,

Andrew Benz

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Thanks Steve and Evin, I'm really excited about this opportunity to help out with the project and do whatever I can to see it become a success.

While I know the final testing schedule hasn't been decided Gibby has expressed that one of the premiere objectives of these tests is to challenge the camera in a production environment. Along these lines, like any aspect of production, there is no way one or even two people will be able complete this project alone and if anybody with a background in vfx is interested in contributing and making this project a reality I highly encourage them to also speak up and try to get involved. There is going to be a need for matte painters, modelers, animators and just about any other pixel pushers out there who want to see this happen.

I know this board is brimming with talent and it would be a shame for it all to go unused.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Lots of great stuff happening here!!!

Gavin, I sent you a PM.

[Dan Blanchett]

I am also very excited to meet this incredible team and document this process for all the great community members that will not be there.

Brilliant idea! We'll probably get feedback on this board before we can see the doc, but it will be fun to see the whole process unfold. It will also be nice actually seeing how the gear is handled (and handles) vice reading about it. Awesome.

[Terry Delahunt]

Brilliant idea! I second that. Thanks Gibby and well done for getting a great team together. Thanks Team! I look forward to the insights!

[Albert Cheng]

I'd be very interested in offering my time and skills for the opportunity to participate in the red test with Gibby and team. As a vfx / previz artist and shooter, I get to work closely with many directors and I'd love to be able to tell them about the test and how the Red may be a great choice for their upcoming projects.

[Darwin]

The hole community coming together like this........Now thats what I'm talking about! Special thanks to Gibby and the hole team.....You guys rock!

[Steve Gibby]

Thanks again for the kind words guys...

I'm pulling the trigger on producing LA REDTest, but it's the outpouring of interest in lending a hand, and the diverse skill sets of the team that should make this a stellar event. There's a ton of talent on this board, and beyond that a genuine readiness to pitch in and help. Thanks to everyone for stepping forward with offers of help...much appreciated! We'll all benefit from the donated efforts of these team members.

Opcode...check your PM box.

[Ken Corben]

...There is going to be a need for matte painters, modelers, animators and just about any other pixel pushers out there who want to see this happen.

I know this board is brimming with talent and it would be a shame for it all to go unused.

Killer addition to the test team and an excellent post...this is truly evolving beyond the initial concept based on the "brimming talent" in this community. Gibby already has my test wish list - just waiting for his announcement of something very cool I pitched and no I knew better than to ask if I can take #8 underwater. Hey #13 you feeling lucky :-)

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Gibby, you're a star..:gun:

[Júlio Taubkin]

Wow, look at them go! :)

[Keith Alan Morris]

Who is the first Reduser getting one on the East Coast?

[Adrian T.]

Gibby rocks! Way to go! :)

[Albert Cheng]

Thanks for the heads up Gibby. I sent you a PM!

[Billy Summers]

Killer addition to the test team and an excellent post...this is truly evolving beyond the initial concept based on the "brimming talent" in this community. Gibby already has my test wish list - just waiting for his announcement of something very cool I pitched and no I knew better than to ask if I can take #8 underwater. Hey #13 you feeling lucky :-)

Heck yea!

[chuck colburn]

The hole community coming together like this........Now thats what I'm talking about! Special thanks to Gibby and the hole team.....You guys rock!

Who are you calling a "hole" LOL

[Gianny Trutmann]

Very cool guy's, it looks like the RED community will be a strong one

[Steve Tammi]

... and no I knew better than to ask if I can take #8 underwater. Hey #13 you feeling lucky :-)

Thanks for volunteering #13 Billy. I was afraid Sharky would ask to dunk #17 next. I would even bring my scuba gear to watch that. It's amazing what you can do with zip lock bags and duct tape. :)

Steve

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Yeah, I'm glad someone volunteered. I want to see this... I'm sure sharkguy knows what he's doing, and if he needs any help during REDTest, I'll gladly assist with duct tape, rubber bands or even an all out effort to double-bag RED #13. :)

[KETCH ROSSi]

Those who have been following various threads on RED User the past few months know I've organized a team for independent testing of RED #8 in Los Angeles the Los Angeles area immediately after I receive the camera. More info will be released as we get closer to the delivery of #8, which is now scheduled for August 30. As Jim Jannard noted, that delivery date could still change. The point is, #8 will be tested immediately after delivery of the camera. Here is some info on the testing of #8:

Overview
We'll test both cine-style and EFP style setups, scores of lenses, accessories, etc. Impressions and results will be posted on RED User, HD for Indies, and some magazine articles I'll write. Various news outlets have requested information about the testing, and interviews with the testing team members. I’ll have unlimited time to work with the camera system after the testing sessions, so I will personally take a mostly hands off position in the testing, and rather let the team do their thing. I’ll shoot DSLR stills of the team at work, and I am producing the testing. The tests will not be a shootoff against other camera systems, but rather real world shooting and testing of a production RED One camera system with as many setups and lighting conditions as we can fit into 2 days, then a technical analysis of the results.

Team
Evin Grant has accepted my invitation to direct the testing. The team is highly experienced and diverse in their backgrounds. As of now, the team members who have accepted invitations are: Me, Evin Grant, David Mullen ASC, Charles Papert SOC, Matt Uhry, Ken Corben, Haakon, Brook Willard, Alexander Nikishin, Ralph Oshiro, Daren Findling, and Jeff Kilgroe. There will also be an ace FX guy and a veteran camera technology guy, both of which will remain un-named until after the testing sessions when the results are published. I'm excited about the skill set and experience composition of the team - cine, EFP, still photo, editors, FX, camera technology, specialty cinematographers, etc. Nobody is being paid for their time spent testing – they’re donating their time, something I deeply appreciate. It’s hard matching team member’s work schedules against the testing days, so it may happen that some of the team members won’t be able to attend both days, or attend at all. We’ll cross that bridge when we come to it. We’ll have a list of reserve testers we can call on as replacements, should a team member be unable to attend. If initial team members have to drop out for scheduled work, reserve list members will fill their team places.

Facility
For equipment security and crowd control purposes, the location of the testing facility will be kept secret until after the testing, when the results are published on RED User and elsewhere. The testing facility will be identified in the posted and published results of the testing. A great Los Angeles area production/post production company has donated their facility for the 2 days of testing - very cool, and very appreciated. The testing team members have yet to be told where the facility is located. Before they are told the location, they will be placed under a non-disclosure agreement. Please don’t pester them for information. They will not be free to give you any info about the testing facility or its location.

Testing Parameters
More info will be released as we get closer to the testing dates. In advance of the testing, I'm having each team member submit their Wish List for parameters, setups, lenses, and accessories to test on the camera. We’ll accommodate as many of those suggestions as possible within the testing time constraints. Me and Evin will be approaching this testing the same as when we individually produce motion media projects – an organized testing schedule analogous to the shooting schedules used on the set or in the field. That way we’ll have a good chance of getting through all the testing and analysis we have on the testing schedule. Testing team members will be asked to use all their varied skill sets, to be unbiased, analytical, and objective - while also paying close attention to aesthetics and artistry.


--------------------------------------------


Summary
Nobody has asked me to organize the testing of RED #8. It was completely my own idea, and I’m donating my camera and time as I produce the testing sessions. As a purchaser of two RED One camera systems, I’m obviously curious about the hands-on results, strengths, and limitations of the system. Though I’m well qualified to test the camera myself, I feel that there is no better way to quickly answer my questions about the camera than to assemble a diverse and talented group of professionals, and then team test it. That way, the results should have a lot more dimension and depth than just myself testing out the camera. After deciding on a team testing of the camera system, the next logical thought that came to my mind, was this: Rather than horde the results and knowledge gained from the testing among the team alone, why not post it so that the rest of you who are hungry for real-world, hands-on feedback on RED One can share in the results. That was an easy decision for me. Anyone who has followed the development of RED One since it was first announced, should also know that I have continually stepped up to mentor, advise, and inform this board and others about the tech and business principles of the motion media industry, and specifically share what knowledge and insight I may have about RED and RED One. It’s been fun for me doing that and I’ve learned immensely from many of the rest of you. This testing is an extension of that symbiosis: I’m sharing this testing with you – and I’m sure you’ll be sharing your ideas and results over the coming months and years ahead with me. I’ve been very fortunate to get an early reservation number so I’m spreading the benefits around this board to all of you. If many of you were in my position, I seriously think you would do the same thing.


----------------------------


Note: I'll be on location today shooting some television programming. Shortly after putting this thread up I have to head out for today's shooting. Later tonight I'll visit RED User and be happy to then answer any questions posted on this thread.

Cheers! :biggrin:

Hi Gibby if I can help in any way please let me know.

I have a 16' trailer, Fresnel tungstens from Filmgear: 1)12k, 4)5k, 4)2k, 6)1k, 6)650w, 6)300w, 10)150w, parabeam 400, Kinoflow 4bank, stands, sandbags, Honda generators 4 2K's ecc.

Also lenses in Nikon F mount, the ZEISS ZF and the EOS Canon the EF L series glass.

So please let me know, I will be available no problem.

Also..(forgive me if this is a silly offer, but comes from the heart) for post screening I have the Sony Pearl true HD 1920/1080p Projector shooting on to a 12' Draper Tensioned Hidef grey screen, so if you guys needed it will be at your disposal.

Ciao,

KETCH ROSSI
www.KETCHFRAME.com

[johannperry]

One more guy who would gladly lend a hand too.
http://www.reduser.net/forum/images/style/attach/jpg.gif

[Hrvoje Simic]

Great move, Gibby!
Seems like a pretty nice crew you'll have there...we are all looking forward to see what you come up with. Thank you for doing all this and best of luck to all of you, guys. Hope you'll have a blast.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

One more guy who would gladly lend a hand too.

Yikes! I've got one that looks a lot like that.... Turns the big 2 on the 9th. ...Scary.

[Frank Weeks]

Very impressive group Gibby,

Thanks for everything. Can't wait for the results.

Frank
Red #852

[Eugene]

http://bloombergmarketing.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/koolaid_man_1.jpg

I saw the Peter Jackson movie today. I see things differently now.

Gibby, could you film some shots at night, similar to the shots in the Miami Vice movie. Thanks.

Why did I ever question you?

[Eugene]

Below is a cool shot from Miami Vice. This is what I am talking about. Gibby said his crew would be shooting test footage on a lot/set. So, I don't expect Gibby to recreate this scene. But a shot like this would be a good test of how the RED One performs.
http://www.deep-focus.com/dfweblog/images/2006_t10/miami_vice.jpg

[Ken Corben]

Thanks for volunteering #13 Billy. I was afraid Sharky would ask to dunk #17 next. I would even bring my scuba gear to watch that. It's amazing what you can do with zip lock bags and duct tape. :)

Steve


Yeah, I'm glad someone volunteered. I want to see this... I'm sure sharkguy knows what he's doing, and if he needs any help during REDTest, I'll gladly assist with duct tape, rubber bands or even an all out effort to double-bag RED #13. :)



Billy, Jeff and Steve now that you mention it...

I was thinking of shooting the first underwater RED 4K 3D tests which will require two Redone cameras. Perhaps after the LA RED test in LA we can head to Tonga to shoot underwater 3D of humpback whales as a test with Mike Hastings and his custom housing? If only my wallet matched my imagination.

Imagine this on a RealD 3D screen:
http://www.naia.com.fj/tonga/whaleinfo.html

or we could go to South Africa and shoot this:

[Ken Corben]

Thank's guys for your responses (even Narcosis guy).


LMAO - Thanks dude, my wife in now calling me narcosis guy:bleh:

[Keith Nealy]

Ken, you really know how to excite a guy!

[Steve Tammi]

Perhaps after the LA RED test in LA we can head to Tonga to shoot underwater 3D of humpback whales as a test with Mike Hastings and his custom housing? If only my wallet matched my imagination.

...

or we could go to South Africa and shoot this:

Dang it Ken don't tempt me. :) At some point I need to actually put the camera to work on something that might make a buck or two.

- Steve

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Imagine... an exclusive REDxpedition to Tongareva, Tonga, Pitcairn, Easter Island... you name it!

Hey, we can all dream! :red_bandana:

Sounds like entirely too much fun.

[Steve Gibby]

Sounds like entirely too much fun.

LOL...those are normal production trips for us non-narrative production people whose genre specialties include nature, alternative sports, adventure travel, and world culture documentaries. Even family and friends hate us sometimes because we go to such fun places. Then again...its a lot of hard work...but we love our work, so its a labor of love!

[Emanuel A.]

Steve, what about to test your #8 here in southwestern Europe during september? :sorcerer: Then, you could include me on your fab list! (I'm envious!... :innocent:)

E. ;-)

EDIT -- I promise...I bring the drinks. :)

[Steve Gibby]

Emanuel,

Thank you for that suggestion...I'd love to do that, and I can't wait to visit Europe again, but we'll have to see what the exact production schedule brings. After the L.A. REDTests I need to put #8 right to work on some projects. Hopefully they will involve a trip to Europe.

There have been so many great offers to assist us...it is really cool! I wish we had a big enough studio to fit everyone who is interested in being on the testing team, but unfortunately we've reached the limit of how many team members we can fit into the testing sessions.

The testing team members have already been submitting and comparing great suggestions for the testing sessions. The team will continue to analyze all suggestions until we boil that down into a workable schedule for the two days testing. We would encourage members and visitors of RED User to post their testing suggestions here. We can't guarantee that we'll be able to fit your suggestions into the two days, but all suggestions are appreciated by the testing team. This is a community effort, and even though everyone can't be there, we will definitely consider all suggestions. Things are getting real busy as we continue our preparations for the testing, so if we're slow to answer your PMs, please know that we appreciate them, they will definitely be considered, and we'll fit in what we can.

Thanks everyone!

[Keith Alan Morris]

http://bloombergmarketing.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/koolaid_man_1.jpg

I saw the Peter Jackson movie today. I see things differently now.

Gibby, could you film some shots at night, similar to the shots in the Miami Vice movie. Thanks.

Why did I ever question you?

Gibby, I would love to see footage shot in all kinds of existing light at night too--but more Collateral and less Miami Vice. :)

I am counting the days... two months! Seems like such a long time. Eugene, how did the short look? Could you describe it please?

And--dumb question--is Tonga anywhere near FL? :) If so, I would love to come help out! I know Hastings is from here...

[Steve Gibby]

L.A. REDTest team roster and updated info

(Last name alphabetical listing, with RED User posting names in parentheses for those that use a handle other than their actual name)

Andrew Benz, Al Cheng (“Opcode”), Chuck Colburn, Ken Corben (“Sharkguy”), Daren Findling (“Finner”), Steve Gibby, Evin Grant, Casey Green, Gavin Greenwalt (“im.thatoneguy”), Haakon, Jeff Kilgroe, David Mullen ASC, Alexander Nikishin, Ralph Oshiro, Charles Papert SOC, Blair Paulsen, Billy Summers, Steve Tammi, Matt Uhry, Brook Willard, and a confidential (for now) technology expert from the studio we’re testing at.

Steve Gibby and Ken Corben are now co-producing L.A. REDTest. Evin Grant is directing the testing. We now have four cameras to test, and we’ll have a great array of camera setups to test, incorporating many different lenses and accessories.

Also, with four cameras to test, we plan to divide the roster into four teams, each with a designated Team Leader. Each team will have tests and setups that are drawn from the testing suggestion lists of the overall team roster, key guidance suggestions by Team Leaders, and usable (within the 2 day timeframe) suggestions from the RED User board. We’re excited to have added the new VXF/green screen testing team, consisting of Jeff Kilgroe, Al Cheng, and Gavin Greenwalt. They will undoubtedly seek additional input from other associated VFX/green screen specialists before and after the two days of actual testing.

As of now, the four Team Leaders will be: David Mullen ASC, Evin Grant, Charles Papert SOC, and the confidential tech expert from the studio we’re testing at. Matt Uhry will function as a floating Assistant Team Leader, directly helping each of the four Team Leaders as needed. Jeff Kilgroe will function as the Team Leader for the VFX/green screen team.

We have a really balanced team roster! A partial list of team members skill sets and experience areas includes: producing, directing, editing, CGI, VFX/green screen, lens technology, AC, AD, documentarian, DP, DIT, photography, cinematography, videography, video relay, technical director, specialty cinematography (water, aerials, POV, stabilizer, jib), data management, and many more. In broad media industry terms, we have highly-experienced members encompassing cine-style, EFP style, photography, and technology.

It has been really exciting bringing all these professionals together for L.A. REDTest! Each one of them has expressed their happiness and willingness to donate their time and talents for the team effort. I’m deeply impressed by their commitment to their crafts and their search for answers about RED One. The production of a feature or television program is always a team effort – or should be if it is to run smoothly. These guys are obviously used to professional teamwork and ready to team up for the L.A REDTest project.

I’ll post more updates as we get closer to the testing days.

Gonna be fun!

[Alexander Nikishin]

Looks like a great team, can't wait to meet everyone and get to work!

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Looks like a great team, can't wait to meet everyone and get to work!

I'll second that.

I guess I'd better start putting together a list of shots, tasks, and anything else I can think of to cram into two days of testing.

[Gunleik Groven]

Jeez.

3-2-1-0

Let the party begin!

Cheers guys. looks great.

Gunleik

[Albert Cheng]

Jeff, Gavin, I sent you guys a PM with my contact information. Looking forward to talking to you both.

[kunal2]

Hi Gibby,will it be possible to do a green/blue screen test
thanks


Those who have been following various threads on RED User the past few months know I've organized a team for independent testing of RED #8 in Los Angeles the Los Angeles area immediately after I receive the camera. More info will be released as we get closer to the delivery of #8, which is now scheduled for August 30. As Jim Jannard noted, that delivery date could still change. The point is, #8 will be tested immediately after delivery of the camera. Here is some info on the testing of #8:

Overview
We'll test both cine-style and EFP style setups, scores of lenses, accessories, etc. Impressions and results will be posted on RED User, HD for Indies, and some magazine articles I'll write. Various news outlets have requested information about the testing, and interviews with the testing team members. I’ll have unlimited time to work with the camera system after the testing sessions, so I will personally take a mostly hands off position in the testing, and rather let the team do their thing. I’ll shoot DSLR stills of the team at work, and I am producing the testing. The tests will not be a shootoff against other camera systems, but rather real world shooting and testing of a production RED One camera system with as many setups and lighting conditions as we can fit into 2 days, then a technical analysis of the results.

Team
Evin Grant has accepted my invitation to direct the testing. The team is highly experienced and diverse in their backgrounds. As of now, the team members who have accepted invitations are: Me, Evin Grant, David Mullen ASC, Charles Papert SOC, Matt Uhry, Ken Corben, Haakon, Brook Willard, Alexander Nikishin, Ralph Oshiro, Daren Findling, and Jeff Kilgroe. There will also be an ace FX guy and a veteran camera technology guy, both of which will remain un-named until after the testing sessions when the results are published. I'm excited about the skill set and experience composition of the team - cine, EFP, still photo, editors, FX, camera technology, specialty cinematographers, etc. Nobody is being paid for their time spent testing – they’re donating their time, something I deeply appreciate. It’s hard matching team member’s work schedules against the testing days, so it may happen that some of the team members won’t be able to attend both days, or attend at all. We’ll cross that bridge when we come to it. We’ll have a list of reserve testers we can call on as replacements, should a team member be unable to attend. If initial team members have to drop out for scheduled work, reserve list members will fill their team places.

Facility
For equipment security and crowd control purposes, the location of the testing facility will be kept secret until after the testing, when the results are published on RED User and elsewhere. The testing facility will be identified in the posted and published results of the testing. A great Los Angeles area production/post production company has donated their facility for the 2 days of testing - very cool, and very appreciated. The testing team members have yet to be told where the facility is located. Before they are told the location, they will be placed under a non-disclosure agreement. Please don’t pester them for information. They will not be free to give you any info about the testing facility or its location.

Testing Parameters
More info will be released as we get closer to the testing dates. In advance of the testing, I'm having each team member submit their Wish List for parameters, setups, lenses, and accessories to test on the camera. We’ll accommodate as many of those suggestions as possible within the testing time constraints. Me and Evin will be approaching this testing the same as when we individually produce motion media projects – an organized testing schedule analogous to the shooting schedules used on the set or in the field. That way we’ll have a good chance of getting through all the testing and analysis we have on the testing schedule. Testing team members will be asked to use all their varied skill sets, to be unbiased, analytical, and objective - while also paying close attention to aesthetics and artistry.


--------------------------------------------


Summary
Nobody has asked me to organize the testing of RED #8. It was completely my own idea, and I’m donating my camera and time as I produce the testing sessions. As a purchaser of two RED One camera systems, I’m obviously curious about the hands-on results, strengths, and limitations of the system. Though I’m well qualified to test the camera myself, I feel that there is no better way to quickly answer my questions about the camera than to assemble a diverse and talented group of professionals, and then team test it. That way, the results should have a lot more dimension and depth than just myself testing out the camera. After deciding on a team testing of the camera system, the next logical thought that came to my mind, was this: Rather than horde the results and knowledge gained from the testing among the team alone, why not post it so that the rest of you who are hungry for real-world, hands-on feedback on RED One can share in the results. That was an easy decision for me. Anyone who has followed the development of RED One since it was first announced, should also know that I have continually stepped up to mentor, advise, and inform this board and others about the tech and business principles of the motion media industry, and specifically share what knowledge and insight I may have about RED and RED One. It’s been fun for me doing that and I’ve learned immensely from many of the rest of you. This testing is an extension of that symbiosis: I’m sharing this testing with you – and I’m sure you’ll be sharing your ideas and results over the coming months and years ahead with me. I’ve been very fortunate to get an early reservation number so I’m spreading the benefits around this board to all of you. If many of you were in my position, I seriously think you would do the same thing.


----------------------------


Note: I'll be on location today shooting some television programming. Shortly after putting this thread up I have to head out for today's shooting. Later tonight I'll visit RED User and be happy to then answer any questions posted on this thread.

Cheers! :biggrin:

[Steve Gibby]

Hi Gibby,will it be possible to do a green/blue screen test
thanks

Yes, we have a VFX/green screen team as part of the testing team now. See my post earlier on this page for their names. The VFX/green screen team is already talking about their concepts for how/what they would like to shoot. We'll post more info on that as we get closer to the testing dates.

[Eugene]

Tonga anywhere near FL?

I know you are joking. You had better make friends with someone in New Zealand or Australia who has a big boat.


Eugene, how did the short look? Could you describe it please?

http://youmakemedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/005634_thumb.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZT23V07w4Q
There was no digital noise, and the 24 frames per second was a good frame rate. It was the best movie about a Teddy Bear ever.

The second best teddy bear movie is the one below.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTDuGaTRiJU

I didn't see Collateral, but getting some night shots of a cab in LA shouldn't cost you LA based guys much in travel expenses. It's a lot cheaper than going to Tonga.

[Casey Green]

Very much looking forward to meeting and working with all of you. This should be quite an interesting event!

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Can't wait to meet everybody! I'm sure I'm going to be jealous of what every other team is doing including the one I'm on. Where's omniscience when you need it? ;)

Good thing someone is shooting a doc so everyone will be able to see what everyone else was up to.

[Andrew Benz]

Can't wait to meet everybody! I'm sure I'm going to be jealous of what every other team is doing including the one I'm on. Where's omniscience when you need it? ;)

Good thing someone is shooting a doc so everyone will be able to see what everyone else was up to.

Haha... looking forward to meeting you Gavin. I can't wait to see what you guys do... I am very lucky to get see everyone hard at work getting solid intel on our favorite subject.

[Alexander Nikishin]

The few, the proud, the Red LA Test Team. :biggrin:

[Jarred Land]

yes indeed. this will be very interesting.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Gibby -

This is starting to sound like WAY too much fun.

As my business partner Aldey & I were planning to fly to LA to pick up our cameras and take a few meetings - so ... if you are interested in adding RED #6 & #7 we are down -

just ping me off line -

[Cail Young]

As my business partner Aldey & I were planning to fly to LA to pick up our cameras and take a few meetings - so ... if you are interested in adding RED #6 & #7 we are down

Oh my. Three of the four horsemen of the REDpocaylpse... Where's #9?

[Ken Corben]

OK,

Somebody invite Spielberg to the LART already. With all this talent and the RED cameras we can shoot the Spielberg directed CGI live action short for RED NAB '08.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

OK, serious comment here... With all the cameras and people, and how the LART is growing, perhaps we should do a short. (??) Or at least plan shots, tests, and content accordingly. ...So that if by some chance everything falls into place, we could present all the various tests and their results in the form of a short film. ...Just throwing that out there.

Of course, I wouldn't want any focus on a short film take precedence over the testing.

[Ken Corben]

Jeff are you implying I'm not serious about inviting Spielberg to direct the LART short? You don't know me very well:clown2:

Good suggestion let's talk to Gibby about a pre-pro meeting to discuss the possibilities via webcam conference. I would offer that the LART results, data and feedback are very important to all those participating and the entire global RED community. Peter Jackson nailed it to say the least so the real world applications on the test agenda are rather valuable to us all. I would bet that given the talent and dynamics of the LART numerous great ideas and projects will emerge.

[Michael Hastings]

Went away from the forum for a few days.

All kidding aside, if I have a camera and lens in hand I can make a housing - not tweaked as nice as a final version but very functional - in 2 days (we have basic body tubes, endplates, wings, etc. premachined on the shelf). In other words if one of you early receivers can fedex me your camera on friday night for saturday delivery I could fedex it back out on Monday. Or delta dash would even be quicker.

Further, if we can convince the RED team to just ship me a body - which shouldn't be that hard once the physical design is mostly locked - I can make the housing in advance. As long as it has the lens mount, accurate button and mounting hole locations I don't need a working camera.


Billy, Jeff and Steve now that you mention it...

I was thinking of shooting the first underwater RED 4K 3D tests which will require two Redone cameras. Perhaps after the LA RED test in LA we can head to Tonga to shoot underwater 3D of humpback whales as a test with Mike Hastings and his custom housing? If only my wallet matched my imagination.

Imagine this on a RealD 3D screen:
http://www.naia.com.fj/tonga/whaleinfo.html

or we could go to South Africa and shoot this:

[Ken Corben]

In other words if one of you early receivers can fedex me your camera on friday night for saturday delivery I could fedex it back out on Monday. Or delta dash would even be quicker.

I know Mike and would do this in a heart beat if my res # was <50. It would be very cool to do an homage to the scene in 300 of the "witch" dream sequence. Green screen in my pool at night with HMI diffused surface lighting the requisite nude beauty in flowing silk with long hair - oh wait I digress from the point - this would be a fantastic add on to LART before or after and a great live action plate for the VFX team.

[Steve Tammi]

this would be a fantastic add on to LART before or after and a great live action plate for the VFX team.

If this can be added right before or after LART I would be willing to hang around for another day or so.

Steve

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I was already having trouble containing my excitement over getting the RED1 itself. Adding the LART is almost too much. Really looking forward to meeting and working with what looks to be a fabulous group.

During my life I have been fortunate enough to be a part of self-selecting groups of discerning people who don't just accept the norm, they want more. The vision and passion for a tool like the RED1 demonstrates a true love for the moving image as more than just a means to an end, that there is an enduring value to the art itself.

The ability to access the best optics and work in a RAW color space without the overhead of film is like a dream come true. Call me "RED Fanboy" as a pejorative if you like, I wear that moniker with pride.

[Ken Corben]

If this can be added right before or after LART I would be willing to hang around for another day or so.

Steve

Very cool Steve. I know Gibby trusts me with his life whether in the Serengeti or the Arctic and likewise but the #8 underwater seems to be a real sphincter factor:clown2:

When we have the official RED shipment dates let's talk about flying you to Florida with your BABY for two days so Mike Hastings can build the prototype housing. This possibility provides an amazing addition to the LART as an add on with the combination of underwater, CGI and live action that will be visually stunning projected on the 4K screen here in town.

SCHWING!

PS - I'll see if we can get a xenon and either David Mullen or Ralph Oshiro to help perfect the "mystical" lighting.

[cckid]

Hi to everyone,

The clock is thicking...revolution is just about o begin...seems like it is going to be an epic meeting...let me throw a list of stuff I would like to see...

1. nikon vs. film lense...same shots with two different lense septups...one with film optics (zeiss, cooke) and one with nikon

2. studio...green screen stuff...with post added....hopefully do two setups...high and low contrast...and a talent with some curly hairs...to be tested in front of the green...just to see this critical situations


3. high key vs. low key situations...obviously testing how much contrast can it really take before loosing detail...please use some high reflectance materials to see how much it can take...

4. different frame rates...slow motion...ramping...timelapse...

5. in terms of short movies...a couple of nice los angeles cuties with or without milk would do for me...jjust make sure they have at least one piece of red clothing on them just for sake of Jim and of course for the sake of critical testing...my opinion is that there's no need to spend too much effort on putting a plot together...since you have a huge time limit...unless you want to do an ocean 14 sequel...then I guess you are all set...

6. I am sure you gonna do a great job...looking forward to see the results...please document it welll....and don't forget to tell us about postproduction workflow you've used...

Best regards and good luck

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I'm pretty sure the 300 scene was just shot on a normal (aka dry) green screen. So it's still not out of the running. In fact it was the VFXtalk challenge last month I believe.

[Michael Ragen]

Part of that sequence in 300 was shot underwater.

[Ken Corben]

The live action plates are "underwater". The technique used in the Oracle scene is the most creative wet for dry technique I have ever seen. This is what I have in mind for the homage scene for LART.

The original plate shows the Oracle girl actor Kelly Craig filmed in a large water tank against bluescreen.

VFX group on how it was done:
http://www.digitalartsonline.co.uk/features/index.cfm?FeatureID=1590

These photos are the live action plate, finished effect from 300 and the lovely Kelly Craig.

[Albert Cheng]

Sharky...I am so down with you on that tank shot.

The other wet for dry shot I clearly recall is the portishead video that chris cunningham did. I remember reading what a bitch it was for the post team to hand paint out all the bubbles...haha.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Anyone here own an aquarium store?

[Ken Corben]

Anyone here own an aquarium store?

LMAO - as a producer I would say the tank shot is fiscally sound. As an underwater shooter I would argue that the camera and operator are performing artists also and that certain weightless camera moves can only be achieved by an in water camera.

Shooting the plates underwater is historical in many respects. First underwater RED 4K footage combined with the wicked CGI talents I've seen from Jeff, Gavin and Albert (opcode). Of course the VFX guys "must" be on set to see, ahemm, Brianna's performance and check all the technical aspects of the shoot.

Mike Hastings should be able to build a video tap into the prototype housing no problem so that an on set HD monitor is topside for all to see.


BTW - our model is way hotter than Kelly Craig.

FYI - I use a rebreather for these type of shoots which removes any major bubble interference with the shot from the camera operator (rebreathers are bubbless underwater life support systems).

[Alexander Nikishin]

A perfect game plan, that's what I like to hear! :biggrin:

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Anyone here own an aquarium store?

That could be my favorite quote on REDuser to date. Even taken out of context you can just instinctively tell there is a crazy story behind it.

[Alexander Nikishin]

That could be my favorite quote on REDuser to date. Even taken out of context you can just instinctively tell there is a crazy story behind it.

lol, it'd be great to document the aquarium's trip to the LART shoot also....makes for great tv.

Just imagine explaining your need for a large aquarium to your typical aquarium shop owner...."You want a 2,000 gallon tank to put a beautiful naked woman into? And you're going to put it on camera!?!?". hehe.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

:biggrin: 2,000 gallons seems a bit small to me. Gotta have room for the pretty lady to move about and a camera operator.

[Steve Gibby]

Hmmm...there obviously won't be any naked women involved with L.A. REDTest - but I really like Sharky's idea of the well-lit pool sequence with a nice looking actress! The subtle variations of reflectivity that water presents should reveal how RED One can perform in such situations.

[Ken Corben]

Gibby, I would love to see footage shot in all kinds of existing light at night too--but more Collateral and less Miami Vice. :)


This is a good suggestion. The test agenda is taking shape and the LART team is in for long days. I will suggest a "Collateral" night shoot on day 1 with some of the veteran DP's and AC's since shooting WFO on primes requires a specific skill set (read subtle key and fill light plus 4K focus here).

[Michael Hastings]

I'm on board with whatever you guys can work out.

I also want to keep raising the possibility of getting a RED mockup body - if anybody has personal contact with the RED team or any of you are visiting here.

This is a busy time of year for me, but I will try in the next few days to make contact with Erik at Birger about the mount, and also start emailing/calling all of the RED staff with my request for an aluminum or delrin body to work with.

P.S. to the RED team, I am happy to send a block/blocks of aluminum or delrin out to you if it would help getting a body machined.

P.P.S. I know nobody wants to believe this and I understand Gibby's hesitation, but - particularly in a pool type situation - once we put the RED in the underwater housing it is probably safer than when it is being handled throughout the day in all of the other tests - it's hermetically sealed, shock and impact protected, etc. (We really are pretty good at making these things waterproof.)



Very cool Steve. I know Gibby trusts me with his life whether in the Serengeti or the Arctic and likewise but the #8 underwater seems to be a real sphincter factor:clown2:

When we have the official RED shipment dates let's talk about flying you to Florida with your BABY for two days so Mike Hastings can build the prototype housing. This possibility provides an amazing addition to the LART as an add on with the combination of underwater, CGI and live action that will be visually stunning projected on the 4K screen here in town.

SCHWING!

PS - I'll see if we can get a xenon and either David Mullen or Ralph Oshiro to help perfect the "mystical" lighting.

[Steve Gibby]

P.P.S. I know nobody wants to believe this and I understand Gibby's hesitation, but - particularly in a pool type situation - once we put the RED in the underwater housing it is probably safer than when it is being handled throughout the day in all of the other tests - it's hermetically sealed, shock and impact protected, etc. (We really are pretty good at making these things waterproof.)

LOL...Sharky just likes to tease me about me supposedly being reluctant to put #8 in a water housing, but the fact is I'm not reluctant to do so, and I've shot in the water (shallow & surface) with my camera systems throughout my whole career. I'm planning to have a water sports housing made for #8 as soon as I get it - and you may very well be the one to make it.

I've waited a long time for #8 and I'll be the one to use it in a housing. We'll find Sharky another one to put in a housing while he waits for his! If a housing was available for #8 for in-pool shooting for LART, I guess I'd let Sharky use my rig...but I'd watch him closely as he did! :blink: :biggrin:

[Brook Willard]

Well since we're getting crazy, I can call a few certain camera "flyers" I know... :)

[Steve Gibby]

Well since we're getting crazy, I can call a few certain camera "flyers" I know... :)

LOL...could happen sometime! A minimal setup RED One would be a "tad" big for a helmetcam, but maybe a shoulder brace mount or hand strapped with a safety leash...?

We won't be getting to that for LART - but I'd definitely like to file that under "must do in the future ASAP!"

For our wedding anniversary a few years ago, me and my wife strapped tiny POV cameras in housings on the side of our knees (looking up toward our heads) and bungee jumped 300' from a bridge in a forest in Costa Rica. The footage was unreal! We had someone else shoot the jumps from the bridge top and below the bridge, and it all aired nationally in a TV segment on Real TV called "Anniversary Bungee Jump!". RED One is a little big for that, but yes, after LART I'll be putting #8 in all sorts of precarious situations to get unusual shot sequences...

[Ken Corben]

RED One is a little big for that, but yes, after LART I'll be putting #8 in all sorts of precarious situations to get unusual shot sequences...

Good thing #700 is next in line. Sounds like #8 is gonna' be a tired camera:weight_lift:

[Steve Gibby]

Good thing #700 is next in line. Sounds like #8 is gonna' be a tired camera:weight_lift:

#8 may not be tired...but I'm sure there will be times it's owner will be! :weight_lift:

Lookin' forward to it...

[Brook Willard]

LOL...could happen sometime! A minimal setup RED One would be a "tad" big for a helmetcam, but maybe a shoulder brace mount or hand strapped with a safety leash...?

I figure a minimum setup to be a body, prime [*cough* 8R], onboard flash module and external battery. That's probably under 15lbs... quite light for a 35mm-esque setup. I'm sure we'll get it up there at some point for fun.

[Steve Gibby]

I figure a minimum setup to be a body, prime [*cough* 8R], onboard flash module and external battery. That's probably under 15lbs... quite light for a 35mm-esque setup. I'm sure we'll get it up there at some point for fun.

Let's do it!...sometime after LART

:biggrin:

[chuck colburn]

All these tests such as different lens types, green screens, under water, (although I do think that nude starlets would lend a certain validity) are all fine and dandy to confirm studio type shooting, there is a need for real world exterior tests. So what I'm offering to do is, mount the camera (don't care whos) on a class five (10,000lb.) drop hitch on the back of my '77 F-250 and take it for a spin on some abandoned heavily wash boarded logging roads. There is nothing to be concerned about here as the truck has four leaf overload springs on the back and is sturdy as a rock. I believe this type of testing should revel any potential mechanical problems that might be inherent in the camera housing and lens mount assemblys. And so long as I have the camera, I could also perform some beta testing with the new Jakes Foundry crash housing. Let me know when would be a good time.

[Steve Gibby]

All these tests such as different lens types, green screens, under water, (although I do think that nude starlets would lend a certain validity) are all fine and dandy to confirm studio type shooting, there is a need for real world exterior tests. So what I'm offering to do is, mount the camera (don't care whos) on a class five (10,000lb.) drop hitch on the back of my '77 F-250 and take it for a spin on some abandoned heavily wash boarded logging roads. There is nothing to be concerned about here as the truck has four leaf overload springs on the back and is sturdy as a rock. I believe this type of testing should revel any potential mechanical problems that might be inherent in the camera housing and lens mount assemblys. And so long as I have the camera, I could also perform some beta testing with the new Jakes Foundry crash housing. Let me know when would be a good time.

LOL...there it is...I knew there were some good reasons we invited you to be a member of the LART team!

The LART team members will need some comic relief to break up the busy testing schedule. Beyond your in-depth knowledge of lens technology, your sense of humor will come in real handy!

Ahhhh…we won’t have time for the F-250 hitch test, but we’ll definitely file that under “next time”…

[Steve Gibby]

RED User members:

Keep the L.A. REDTest (LART) testing suggestions coming. The testing team are members of RED User, we read this board daily, and we definitely appreciate your testing suggestions. We can't guarantee that we'll have the time, staff, or facilities to perform all suggested tests, but we'll do the tests that are deemed most significant (and feasible) by the team members - and some of those tests could be the ones you suggest.

All team members are volunteers, nobody is being paid, and we, the producers of the event, are producing this entire event without a budget for it - completely on volunteered time, facilities, and equipment - because we want the answers to key questions about RED One usage, just like you.

Again...keep your testing suggestions coming! As we get closer to the testing date, we'll analyze all suggestions, from the team and this board, and finalize a testing list and schedule for the two days we have to test.

Thanks everyone...

[Jeff Kilgroe]

So what I'm offering to do is, mount the camera (don't care whos) on a class five (10,000lb.) drop hitch on the back of my '77 F-250 and take it for a spin on some abandoned heavily wash boarded logging roads.

On that note... If the camera survives the F-250 test (willing to perform that here too), I've got a collection of various testing er.. platforms available. The Terex TS-24B's are an adventure in themselves.

http://www.appliedvisual.com/redimages/equip1.jpg

[Steve Gibby]

I like the green ones...100,000 pound, all-terrain dolly shots...I love it Jeff!

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I'm just surprised nobody has requested the 'hammer test'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy20b7pCcrY

[Frank Weeks]

You guys are killing me. I hated missing NAB. Now this.

Sounds like waaay too much fun.

Go Red team.

Frank
#852

[craesmeyer]

Please, call some experienced sound recordist to field test the Red's audio! Let's not forget that, pls?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I like the green ones...100,000 pound, all-terrain dolly shots...I love it Jeff!

Yep. Not too many things handle all-terrain tasks like a large scraper. These old Terex models are from the '50s and they're hell to drive. Serious learning curve there. They're seriously front-heavy when not hauling a load (a lot of scrapers are) and one of the big rookie mistakes when scraping down-hill is to start off too fast. The air suspension has a lot of travel and if the nose is pointed down-hill and you hit a bump, you could put the front of the machine into the dirt and the ass end will come off the ground. Nothing puts fear into a new equipment operator quite the way that does. :) I've never seen one topple end over end though... Had them roll on their side. Usually they just blow a hydraulic line or have engine trouble and then you have a 35 ton chunk of iron in everyone's way until it gets fixed -- 55 tons if fully loaded. The one on the right in the picture has a special place in my heart. It obliterated 6 employee vehicles due to a massive hydraulic failure and an inexperienced driver at the wheel who was going too fast. Of little consolation to those who lost vehicles that day, was the fact that the first truck hit (and crushed like a pop can) was the F-150 owned by the scraper driver. That was not a good day.

If anyone wants a frame of reference for size, the tires on those green scrapers are 2meters in diameter.

[Steve Gibby]

Please, call some experienced sound recordist to field test the Red's audio! Let's not forget that, pls?

Yup...we'll test RED One's audio. Thanks for that reminder/suggestion...

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I'm just surprised nobody has requested the 'hammer test'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy20b7pCcrY

Oooh, so that's what happens to stolen iPhones. Clawhammer and a small screwdriver, nice tool selection. My 4 year old daughter is better with a hammer than that guy too. Anyway if we want the true "hammer test", I have a 16lb soft-head hammer used for driving large wooden tent-stakes. Previous owners: Ringling Bros. :)

[chuck colburn]

I love those circus hammers!
As a kid I grew up in a small rural Illinois town and every year the travelling circus would show up and pitch their tents on the edge of town. (Think "Something Wicked This Way Comes") My buddies and I would watch them raise the tents and line up the animal cages etc. Truly something magical and scary at the same time.

[Ken Corben]

Anyone able to lend their Canon 10-22 for the LART?

[Alexander Nikishin]

I've got lots of fast Nikkor glass if needed....

24mm F2 - 35mm F1.4 - 50mm 1.2 - 85mm F 1.4 - 105mm F1.8

[Steve Gibby]

Of little consolation to those who lost vehicles that day, was the fact that the first truck hit (and crushed like a pop can) was the F-150 owned by the scraper driver. That was not a good day.

Some gnarly Terex stories Jeff! Colburn is undoubtedly relieved to hear that it was an F-150 and not an F-250 that got flattened...:biggrin:

[Steve Gibby]

I've got lots of fast Nikkor glass if needed....

24mm F2 - 35mm F1.4 - 50mm 1.2 - 85mm F 1.4 - 105mm F1.8

Very cool...Evin has a ton of Nikkor glass also. You guys should compare kits and choose which lenses you feel would be best to test - a good variety.

[chuck colburn]

Some gnarly Terex stories Jeff! Colburn is undoubtedly relieved to hear that it was an F-150 and not an F-250 that got flattened...:biggrin:

Hahahahah....
That's true, anything less then a F-250 Camper Special with a M-Block in it is for wimps.

http://home.earthlink.net/~bubbaf250/

[Finner]

As boring as it may be the thing I look most forward to is a bunch of standard testing that defines the limits of the camera in as many spectrums as possible. As much fun as a small short type test would be I feel it has already been done very well with the PJ short and that concrete tests would be the most valuable way to spend the time.

[Steve Gibby]

I think that's a good point Daren. With several cameras, two days, and a team of 21 people divided into rotating teams, we should be able to cover a lot of standard tests and possibly a short or two, plus lots of shooting in various lighting setups/conditions, and lens/accessory combinations.

Bottom line: we'll cover a lot of ground

[Michael Hastings]

I figure a minimum setup to be a body, prime [*cough* 8R], onboard flash module and external battery. That's probably under 15lbs... quite light for a 35mm-esque setup.
Brook:

We can make it even lighter by trimming some excess metal off - that's what they make milling machines for - and I'm sure Gibby wouldn't mind:greedy: .

I have a skydiver friend that's pretty big (in fact his nickname is Big Jap(www.bigjapphotography.com) because he's a pretty big Jap at 6'5 220, so I'm sure at some point I'll convince him to strap a RED to his head (a real REDhead).



LOL...Sharky just likes to tease me about me supposedly being reluctant to put #8 in a water housing, but the fact is I'm not reluctant to do so, and I've shot in the water (shallow & surface) with my camera systems throughout my whole career. I'm planning to have a water sports housing made for #8 as soon as I get it - and you may very well be the one to make it.

I've waited a long time for #8 and I'll be the one to use it in a housing. We'll find Sharky another one to put in a housing while he waits for his! If a housing was available for #8 for in-pool shooting for LART, I guess I'd let Sharky use my rig...but I'd watch him closely as he did! :blink: :biggrin:

Gibby, I knew you were game - my comment was as much for the non-divers as anything. It may be more a matter of limited time at your tests, seems like there is a pretty full schedule already.

[Steve Gibby]

RED User members:

Please keep posting your testing suggestions for L.A REDTest (LART). Your input is much appreciated! We can't guarantee that we'll have the time, staff, and facilities to do the exact tests you suggest, but we'll fit in what we can.

Thanks!

[Brook Willard]

Gibby, do you know what sort of lighting we'll have available?

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I know the big curiosity is the operation of the camera but I am very interested in seeing the difference between lenses. If, in fact, the characteristics of the sensor are as neutral as I anticipate the RedOne may reveal the inherent qualities of each lens quite discretely.

Zeiss vs Cooke, RED branded glass vs Angeniuex, etc. Without the usual variable of film stock characteristics this should be illuminating (pardon the pun :innocent: )

It should be interesting to see the FOV of familiar lenses mounted on the RedOne with its S35 sized sensor. There have been many long threads about the proper "conversion" factors between various combinations of full sensor vs windowed and full 35mm aperture vs s35, etc. There is nothing quite like seeing it for yourself, particularly when you have a moving camera and several points of interest in the shot. I assume s35 DoF tables will hold up...

[Steve Gibby]

Gibby, do you know what sort of lighting we'll have available?

We'll be figuring that out shortly...

Give me your suggestions via PM or email and we'll keep them in mind as we plan it all out. I'm sure we'll want to use many different lighting setups - studio and natural.

[planet e]

i know that andrew is shooting a doc, and you are shooting stills. but will we be able to access some quick n dirty web same-day video-on-demand, without having to wait for a doc? stills don't do justice to many things that i'd like to see, which could benefit from motion, especially:

1) birger lens mount--i'd like to see this in action, i can't quite grasp how it will work from the stills
2) changing lens mounts
3) complete assembly process of the camera--not just seeing it operational and fully assembled, it would be nice to see all the parts being placed...
4) swapping out of drives and memory modules

i'm sure there's more.....

[Steve Gibby]

i know that andrew is shooting a doc, and you are shooting stills. but will we be able to access some quick n dirty web same-day video-on-demand, without having to wait for a doc? stills don't do justice to many things that i'd like to see, which could benefit from motion, especially:

1) birger lens mount--i'd like to see this in action, i can't quite grasp how it will work from the stills
2) changing lens mounts
3) complete assembly process of the camera--not just seeing it operational and fully assembled, it would be nice to see all the parts being placed...
4) swapping out of drives and memory modules

i'm sure there's more.....

All good suggestions...

We're still in planning, and we will be right up to the time of testing, but here's some thoughts on what you asked:

We'll shoot a lot of stills and video on both days. We'll be slammed at the end of the first day, so I'd guess some summary reports, posts, and a few pics will be what is posted. The second day will also be a very long day. I would guess that summary reports, posts, and pics would be posted that evening also. Some fast turnaround QuickTime clips of simple video may be workable. Some offers of hosting and bandwidth have come in. We're analyzing our options.

We've been communicating with Erik Widding (Birger). We will have Birger mounts to test. Which ones, and how in-depth we can get in testing them will determined before the testing sessions.

We will be changing mounts a lot. We will have two superb lens technicians as part of the team, plus several team members with deep experience with lenses, so I'd expect some very good info to be generated.

We'll be assembling and disassembling four different RED One camera systems, and going through scores of different lens/accessory setups, drive swapouts, etc. The teams will be very busy...

We'll have a vast amount of ground to cover in two days. We'll document it (Andrew), shoot stills of it ( me and others), and potentially videotape certain sequences for possible web/QuickTime posting. Besides testing out tons of aspects of lens use, accessory use, etc., we'll need to shoot tests, light or use natural light for footage sequences, test audio, shoot green screen sequences, and on and on and on.

We'll post as much as we can in a timely manner...but our primary initial mission will be to thoroughly test the cameras, lenses, and accessories, and shoot with them...then get around to posting the results.

It will be real busy...but a fun type of busy!

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I know that andrew is shooting a doc, and you are shooting stills. but will we be able to access some quick n dirty web same-day video-on-demand, without having to wait for a doc?


I can't speak for Gibby but I'm going to guess same-day and EOD posts will not be allowed in case one of us breaches the NDA of the location. But fear not I know I for one will be snapping away every free moment I have with my film and digital cameras and as soon as we're allowed to post there'll be a deluge from many members on all the teams. We're all shooters one way or another at heart and I expect a mountain of photos by the end.

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

May I suggest a simple audio test?

Just plug in a cheap mike and point it at the camera for a few seconds.

Then, have somebody speak a few P´s into the mike from very low to very loud. This should overdrive the convertors and we´ll hear how they deal with that.

It doesnt even have to be a good microphone to conduct that tests.
(Just dont forget the mini xlr´s......As I will......hopefully not on an actual set.)

All the best,
Jochen

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Or perhaps one of these could be added to the testing kit:

http://www.radioshack.com/sm-digital-display-sound-level-meter--pi-2103667.html

Is 50db low enough?

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

Or perhaps one of these could be added to the testing kit:

http://www.radioshack.com/sm-digital-display-sound-level-meter--pi-2103667.html

Is 50db low enough?

Absolutly not. (60db is a normal conversation from 1 meter away).
I would refuse to work on a music recording set or studio with a 20 db noisefloor.

Jochen

[Steve Gibby]

Hi Gibby if I can help in any way please let me know.

I have a 16' trailer, Fresnel tungstens from Filmgear: 1)12k, 4)5k, 4)2k, 6)1k, 6)650w, 6)300w, 10)150w, parabeam 400, Kinoflow 4bank, stands, sandbags, Honda generators 4 2K's ecc.

Also lenses in Nikon F mount, the ZEISS ZF and the EOS Canon the EF L series glass.

So please let me know, I will be available no problem.

Also..(forgive me if this is a silly offer, but comes from the heart) for post screening I have the Sony Pearl true HD 1920/1080p Projector shooting on to a 12' Draper Tensioned Hidef grey screen, so if you guys needed it will be at your disposal.

Ciao,

KETCH ROSSI
www.KETCHFRAME.com

Sorry for the delayed response Ketch!

Thanks for that offer of grip and glass - much appreciated. I'm sure we could use that. I'll definitely discuss your offer with the other team members. We'll analyze the space requirements at the testing studio and also the aggregate list of tests we'll be doing, and then I'll get back to you sometime soon via private message.

Thanks again...

[david farland]

Gibby,

Have you a draft testing strategy yet?

What tests do you think are most important?.....what approach will you follow for these tests?

Thanks for this,
Dave,

[Steve Gibby]

Gibby,

Have you a draft testing strategy yet?

What tests do you think are most important?.....what approach will you follow for these tests?

Thanks for this,
Dave,

As co-producers of the event, me and Ken Corben have asked all the testing team members (21 now) to submit their "wish lists" to us for what tests they feel are relevant and workable within the time we have (2 days) and the facilities we have to work in. Once those are all in, we'll analyze everything and then create a testing workflow for both days. They will be long days - but fun days when you enjoy testing new equipment - like we all do!

Several times on this thread, I've also solicited RED User members to post their suggestions on the thread, or PM them to me, Ken, or Evin. We'll throw those suggestions in the pool with the team members wish list for consideration.

Testing will be thorough and objective. We'll need to be left-brained and pragmatic at times - and right-brained and artistic at others. I think mid-brained people, who can go right-brain/left-brain at will, make the most versatile and capable testing team members. To carry that analogy even further, and for the same reasons - I think mid-brained people make the best producers, directors, and DPs.

[Bruce Allen]

Gibby

Here's my test wish list so far... just a few ideas off of the top of my head. Anyway, let me know if I can help. I'll be there in a flash. Unless of course, you guys schedule the tests during the week... in which case I'll be sitting at work doing movie titles instead. Or if you shoot in September - then I'll be in South Africa. Come and visit!

REFERENCE POINT
Let's have some kind of set of reference points. Spot and incident readings (I'm sure everyone has light meters, but I have a 608 Cine if you need it...), photos of the scene with a DSLR, and have an HD camera sitting nearby filming the scene at the same time. And good lighting diagrams. I'd be happy to be on set doing the above things - and doing this doesn't need to interfere with the shoot too much.

I'm not talking about a camera shootout - let's just get some ballpark images so that we can see how Red relates roughly to previous cameras we've used, so when we're scouting, planning, etc, we know how much light we need, etc. In theory, a DSLR would be good for this. Let's see if it's true.

GREEN / BLUE SCEEN
Does Red's Bayer pattern (which has more green sensors than blue) mean that greenscreen is definitely preferable to bluescreen for most situations (unless you're dealing with blondes etc)? How good is bluescreen (seeing as blue is kinda subsampled), combined with RedCode? Let's test both.

ROLLING SHUTTER
Under what situations does the rolling shutter become a problem? Gibby, you're going to want to know this in advance if you're planning on shooting events where people will be firing off camera flashes, etc. Does it vary with frame rate or shutter angle? Does motion blur help hide it? Let's try a few tests ranging from severe (camera flashes, random unsynchronized strobes) to light (simple motion, handheld, etc). Also, put up a few tracking markers and see how accurately the footage will track. I've VFX supervised my share of technocrane 3D tracking shots - let me know if I i can help. Anyway, I'm going to do a set of tests with my HV20 (which also has a rolling shutter) - I'll take the most successful ones and suggest them for the Red.

LOW LIGHT / NOISE
This is obvious. But very important. Lots of things to look for:
a) how much fixed pattern noise?
b) how much "normal noise"?
c) how much noise reduction does RedCine perform by default? How much is done on-chip? How much detail do we lose because of this?
d) does RedCine perform temporal noise reduction? If so, we'll get different results with moving subjects versus static ones. It's unlikely that this is done in camera, but you never know...
e) hot pixels? I doubt it though ;)
...followed up, of course, by testing to see how much we can remove noise in post to raise the effective ASA.

LATITUDE
Of course the ol' Stouffer wedge must be brought out. But that only tells us so much. Some channels may clip before others (Eg like the Viper) - I doubt it, but we should check. The CML's method of having Macbeth charts shot at half-stop intervals is a good one - I'm not sure if we need to do all of that but a couple Stouffer wedges with colored gels on them, plus some over- and under-exposed Macbeth charts should clue us in to any potential non-linear color shifts.

QUANTIZATION
Related to this... do we really get 14 bits of info per channel? This is important for judging things like "how much do we lose if we go to 10-bit log" early in the post process...

CHECK FOR SENSOR / LENS ISSUES
You know what I'm talking about. I'd want to look for the same problems people encountered when moving from film to 1-CCD DSLRs. Is vignetting suprisingly high on lenses not designed for digital (due to the higher angle sensitivity of electronic image sensors compared to film)? I don't expect CCD-style highlight streaks, but is there purple fringing?

LENSES - PL MOUNT
Do the Red 18-50 and 300mm lenses really work with a 4x5.6 mattebox without vignetting or should we get ready to use 5x6, 5.65x5.65 or 6x6 filters instead? Of course, we want to know how good the Red lenses are versus Cooke, Zeiss, etc? Breathing, CA, bokeh, ergonomics, etc? How much resolution advantage do the Dalsa anamorphics get for those doing 2.35?

LENSES - NIKON MOUNT
How long does it take to change mounts? How well do the Nikons hold up? Does the 17-35 really make sense, or does the short focus throw, the lack of hard stops and the lesser zoom range mean that we should really go with the Red 18-50 instead?

ERGONOMICS - CAMERA / RAIL / TRIPOD COMBINATIONS
How comfy is it to hold? Do our predictions about handheld work hold true? Does the O'Connor 1030HD really hold up or do we need bigger sticks?

FOLLOW FOCUS - MOTORIZED
How do the CVB / Red Motor and Birger systems stack up to the current industry standards (eg Preston, C-Motion, Arri for high-end, Bartech plus M-One on the cheaper side)?

BATTERY TIMES
Someone should have a stopwatch and record how long the batteries last on average. So people know how many battery packs to order, you know...

LCD & EVF
People are going to be undecided about whether they need to buy either or both of these. So it'd help them make up their minds a lot if we let them know how useable they are... resolution, viewing angle, color accuracy, daylight visibility...

OUTDOORS
Let's shoot outdoors, please!

TEST CLIP DVD
Most important. Let's put a stack of test clips on DVD or on a bandwidth-capable FTP site and let people download. Then this test becomes less of a "Members Only, LA cool kidz" thing and more of a "sharing with the global Reduser community" thing...

Again, let me know if I can help. You know my skill set. During the day I work at mOcean doing movie titles (eg Borat), trailer graphics (Ocean's 13, done at 4K for some reason!) and some VFX, after hours I run around doing camera tests (like this one http://www.freshdv.com/2007/06/nikon-lens-tests-with-the-sgpro-35mm-adapter-and-hvx200.html) and trying to direct music videos and suchlike. I'm a director / vfx supervisor, not a DP.

I also have a bunch of pro compositor friends (Pirates 3, Sky Captain, etc) who I am sure would be happy to give their opinion on greenscreening, etc (although again probably it'd just be for the best if you released the footage for everyone to play with).

Anyway, best of luck!

Cheers

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[GlennChan]

GREEN / BLUE SCEEN
Does Red's Bayer pattern (which has more green sensors than blue) mean that greenscreen is definitely preferable to bluescreen for most situations (unless you're dealing with blondes etc)? How good is bluescreen (seeing as blue is kinda subsampled), combined with RedCode? Let's test both.
I don't think it make that huge of a difference since you need all three colors to key material. A green color has an absence of red and blue... you need red and blue information to determine that absence.

In practice, I'd like to see greenscreen material with shadows on the greenscreen (e.g. folds in the greenscreen material, and cast shadows). Because not all greenscreen material is shot well, and in some cases it's extremely difficult to avoid shadows (e.g. on puppet shows where the puppeteers need to be keyed; if you need to shoot the floor). Shadows tend to have more noise and therefore be difficult to key.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I don't think it make that huge of a difference since you need all three colors to key material. A green color has an absence of red and blue... you need red and blue information to determine that absence.

Yep. We've mentioned some bluescreen possibilities for the REDTest in some of our preliminary discussions. But there's only two days of testing and lots to do. So getting bluescreen footage may not happen.


In practice, I'd like to see greenscreen material with shadows on the greenscreen (e.g. folds in the greenscreen material, and cast shadows). Because not all greenscreen material is shot well, and in some cases it's extremely difficult to avoid shadows (e.g. on puppet shows where the puppeteers need to be keyed; if you need to shoot the floor). Shadows tend to have more noise and therefore be difficult to key.

I've suggested some of this stuff to the group so far. We'll have to see, but this is on the forefront of my VFX test scenarios. I want to shoot some greenscreen that is improperly lit, has shadows, other garbage, color casts on both the screen and the subject, etc.. I want to see how well REDCODE and the camera's range deals with pushing and pulling the images in post in order to fix common screw-ups. We also need to see how well the camera and codec holds up to fine details, curly and whispy hair, smoke, etc..

We will be shooting both indoors and outdoors. So far, some of us REDTEST members have bounced some emails back and forth with various ideas, but we haven't got too serious yet. Still a lot of unanswered questions in regards to resources and timing. But I think over the next few weeks a lot will fall into place.

[Bruce Allen]

I don't think it make that huge of a difference since you need all three colors to key material.

No you don't. If you were keying, say, a red bucket against a blue screen versus against a green screen, you'd be getting keying info from only your red and blue or red and green channels.

In which case you'd have much higher resolution on your Bayer sensor if you shot against green.



A green color has an absence of red and blue... you need red and blue information to determine that absence.




In practice, I'd like to see greenscreen material with shadows on the greenscreen (e.g. folds in the greenscreen material, and cast shadows).


You're going to spend $18,000 on a 4k camera and not fix the folds in your greenscreen? Okay, okay, I agree, the world isn't perfect (just look at my own webpage for a folded greenscreen frenzy). And shadows are sometimes unavoidable...



Shadows tend to have more noise and therefore be difficult to key.
I think we agree there...

Bruce Allen
www.boaciema.com

[KETCH ROSSi]

Sorry for the delayed response Ketch!

Thanks for that offer of grip and glass - much appreciated. I'm sure we could use that. I'll definitely discuss your offer with the other team members. We'll analyze the space requirements at the testing studio and also the aggregate list of tests we'll be doing, and then I'll get back to you sometime soon via private message.

Thanks again...

No reason to apologies Gibby,

what you and the guys are to do is much so appreciated, so if I can help in any way, glad to do so.

I imagine that money is not at all an issue for this planned test but in any case let me know.

Ciao,

KETCH ROSSI
www.KETCHFRAME.com

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I wouldn't be so hasty to say we'll only have greenscreen footage. We might only have Bluescreen footage. It'll partly come down to what our facilities have. Which is still an unknown.

One thing I would like to avoid however is shooting 'bad' greenscreen footage. (Definition of bad: rotoscoping shots.) There is a point where it's just testing the compositor not the camera. ;)

[Michael Schrengohst]

You forgot about the drop test.
How well will the RED survive a
4 ft drop on to the concrete floor
of the studio from the greasy hands
of the first A/C?

[david farland]

Red Guy....i think you just talked your way into the test team...when does your camera arrive?

Test team....(including their newest member....Red guy)

I’m sure you’re already thinking of this, but I’d document the test setup well, as Bruce mentioned, so if there was a problem you’d have a better chance of going back to it weeks after and redoing it or maybe someone else could.

For the first few months these test results may be major source of information on the Red One camera. The results of one camera’s erroneous setting, internal fault etc, could cause some bad results and talk. I don’t know if you’re thinking of doubling up on cameras for certain tests, but if you use a second roaming ‘safety’ camera that could take a sub-sample of tests, it would provide a greater level of security, accuracy. For example for latitude tests, the second camera may take 3 stops, upper, lower and middle.

With that in mind and all respect to Gibby and the team (so much!) & Jim, if I were Jim, I’d be surprised if he doesn’t…. I’d want to get my own set of controlled test results out and release them when the camera is released…, running them over weeks in a controlled environment, showing the best of what the camera can produce. We all know with the luxury of time, repetition etc, some things will improve.

Cheers,

Dave,

[GlennChan]

Jeff and Gavin: Cool. I wouldn't be too bothered if you didn't shoot both green and blue to see if a particular color was better. Because even if you do shoot it, some people (like me :D) could potentially complain that you didn't use the most saturated green/blue possible (unless both keyed well).

The other thing is that you don't want to over-extend yourself by doing too many tests.

2- Speaking of which, it may (or may not) be good to include other cameras for comparison. The SI-2K for example is very comparable to the Red (similar price, workflow, target market) and shouldn't introduce too many variables into the testing (low # of menu settings). If you can get it. Or the Dalsa, Viper, or F23 (or D-20?). If you want to get fancy, you'd throw in film or other video cameras (F900, Varicam, etc.). But then you run the risk of over-extending yourself. (EDIT: Sorry, missed Gibby's post on this. The plan is to test Red only.)

Putting another camera in there might help put some perspective on the results. Some tests aren't standardized (e.g. aliasing / zone plate, exposure latitude / noise) so the results by themselves may not be that informative without comparisons to other cameras.

3- For S&G, could you do a difference key test? It might be an interesting use for Red since you can shoot virtual sets with perfect spill. Or, a greenscreen where the green is fairly dark. I'm guessing with the Red you can get away with it since the images so far look fairly noise-less (even with Redcode compression).

[Casey Green]

I wouldn't be so hasty to say we'll only have greenscreen footage. We might only have Bluescreen footage. It'll partly come down to what our facilities have. Which is still an unknown.


If it is at all a help, I will be able to bring some Chromatte Kits (LED Light Ring with Retro Reflective Screen) to provide another option for evenly lit Blue/Green Screen without the need for a ton of lighting. Its a great portable tool that's quick to set up and works for specific needs. (not appropriate for all types of setups, but a nice option sometimes).

Gibby, I'll send you a list of other tools I can make accessible for the tests.

Looking forward to it.

[Michael Schrengohst]

Red Guy....i think you just talked your way into the test team...when does your camera arrive?

Test team....(including their newest member....Red guy)

I’m sure you’re already thinking of this, but I’d document the test setup well, as Bruce mentioned, so if there was a problem you’d have a better chance of going back to it weeks after and redoing it or maybe someone else could.

For the first few months these test results may be major source of information on the Red One camera. The results of one camera’s erroneous setting, internal fault etc, could cause some bad results and talk. I don’t know if you’re thinking of doubling up on cameras for certain tests, but if you use a second roaming ‘safety’ camera that could take a sub-sample of tests, it would provide a greater level of security, accuracy. For example for latitude tests, the second camera may take 3 stops, upper, lower and middle.

With that in mind and all respect to Gibby and the team (so much!) & Jim, if I were Jim, I’d be surprised if he doesn’t…. I’d want to get my own set of controlled test results out and release them when the camera is released…, running them over weeks in a controlled environment, showing the best of what the camera can produce. We all know with the luxury of time, repetition etc, some things will improve.

Cheers,

Dave,

Darn, I would if I could - Dec. delivery for me.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

You forgot about the drop test.
How well will the RED survive a
4 ft drop on to the concrete floor
of the studio from the greasy hands
of the first A/C?

I've already got this one covered. The 4 camera suppliers will draw straws to see who qualifies for the 3ft, 5ft, and 9ft drop tests... One camera will be reserved for shooting the other three tests. :matrix:

[Don Woods]

I've already got this one covered. The 4 camera suppliers will draw straws to see who qualifies for the 3ft, 5ft, and 9ft drop tests... One camera will be reserved for shooting the other three tests. :matrix:


Count me in. :innocent:

[Häakon]

Anyone able to lend their Canon 10-22 for the LART?
I've got a good selection of Canon glass (including the 10-22) and would be more than happy to bring it to the LART for testing, however because that particular lens is an EF-S lens, I am not sure it will be compatible with the new mount (EF-S lenses are made specifically for 1.6x FOVCF dSLRs). What I expect is that the mount will only work with standard EF lenses, in which case the widest zoom lens available is the newer 16-35mm f/2.8L II USM. However, on a full-frame dSLR, this lens provides the same field of view as the 10-22 EF-S does. There are also 14mm f/2.8L USM and 15mm f/2.8 (fisheye) primes available for full-frame cameras.

Either way, I will make my entire inventory of glass (and anything else I own that the team may find useful) available for testing when we get underway.

[Mark Crabtree]

My understanding is that the Birger mount is EF-s and so will accept both the EF and the EF-s lenses.

[Steve Gibby]

Thanks for all the additional suggestions on this thread over the past few weeks! I’ve been busy and mobile, but I’ve been lurking here when I could.

If you really think about it, LART will simply be a diverse group of guys in the motion media industry getting together to check out some new toys – RED One cameras, with a variety of lenses and accessories. It’s not meant to be a media circus or Rocket Science 400, but simply a hands-on opportunity for some of us to get a first look at RED One. Over the months after RED One ships I would guess that RED One will be subjected to more tests by others who are interested in drilling down into additional details of its performance. That’s not LART. We only have 2 days to test. It will be fun to hang out with these other guys and share thoughts on, and impressions about RED One.

When all is said and done, some of the key bottom lines with any new motion media camera system are:

1) The aesthetic qualities of the images it generates – the real bottom line.
2) Its ease of integration into field and post workflows – or ability to generate new field and post workflows as needed or desired.
3) Its flexibility, utility, and scalability.

There are many other “bottom lines” that could be listed, but IMO these three are the “biggies”.

Hyper-cerebral, left-brained analysis of a camera system yields performance facts and figures, assuming that the tests are conducted over a period of time in controlled environments, are repeatable to check results, and reflect the pragmatism of the scientific method. LART will not have the time, facilities, crew, or mission to undertake testing like that. What LART can do, within the limits of the time, facilities, and crew we have, is to give us an overview of a “first look” at shipping RED One cameras, with various lenses and accessories. The results of the technical tests we do will be interesting no doubt, but again, to me the key “bottom line” from the LART testing will simply be the aesthetic qualities of the images we will be able to generate using multiple lenses, in natural light and artificial light.

I would guess that RED is getting valuable feedback on the beta testing of RED One cameras with several high-profile production crews. That beta feedback will undoubtedly be used by RED to tweak the parameters of the camera system before it’s finalized for production.

I don’t think any of the LART team members are expecting to test a perfect camera system. Absolute perfection is an elusive butterfly that is essentially unobtainable in the electronics industry. But I think the LART team will be real happy to get together as friends and associates and play with these new toys for a few days – and in the process generate some images, impressions, and opinions that we’ll share with the rest of you. The LART team is made up of guys that I’ve had debates with on RED User and elsewhere – we haven’t always agreed on issues and details about RED. But it’s this cross-pollination of viewpoints that should give LART a balanced collective view of the testing sessions.

Again, these LART testing sessions will be exploratory - but also fun and casual. What started as me just getting a few guys around #8 to check out the camera, has grown into a bigger crew and multiple cameras. But the vibe will be the same – a few guys getting together to check out some cameras. When I produce/direct my professional productions, my set/location is always an enjoyable thing for the crew. I surround myself with a group of people who are real good at what they do, and we all then go out and work together to bang out a good product – and we have fun along the way. My approach to LART has been the same – I’ve surrounded myself with people who are good at what they do – and now we’ll jump in and have some fun!

[Jarred Land]

is it time for a seperate LART forum?

[Steve Gibby]

is it time for a seperate LART forum?

I think that's a great idea Jarred...a central area where RED User members could go to get info on LART. RED User is point central for people interested in RED to get info and exchange thoughts. A dedicated LART forum would be very cool for them as a central place on RED User to get info on LART.

[PaulClements]

I bought www.redwiki.org domain name and setup a Wiki on the website. If you visit it you can see that it is still quite unfinished and requires plenty of input. I simply haven't had time to put in all the information as yet.

Looking at the posts above though perhaps the information from LART could be included here. The main point of the wiki was suppose to be something that people could point their clients to in order to have all the information in one place and educate them as quickly as possible.

At the moment it's on a server that I've been having probs with the last couple of days so you'll have to bare with the speed if you see any probs - it will be improved. If anyone wants to help out putting up information about RED please feel free to signup. Or if the LART team think it could be a useful tool for including their data I'd be more than happy to help you input it in a systematic manner with tables, graphs, diagrams etc as the information from the testing comes through, otherwise you could do it yourself Gibby.

PS, this is not to take away from RedUser Jarred, I just thought maybe it'd be a better way of listing the various information that LART will create than listing it in a forum. If either you Gibby or Jarred would like Sysop control over the Wiki I'd be more than happy. I don't have the time at the moment to do any work on it. I'd also be happy to give you control of the domain name and contents Jarred if it means the data could be linked to RedUser and have a greater reach than me trying to advertise it on my lonesome.

Cheers

Paul

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I wouldn't say there isn't time and personnel to do some empirical evaluations of the camera...

Unless of course you mean you want those evaluations to be accurate. ;)

[Steve Gibby]

Empirical and accurate would be way cool :nerd:

For those scratching their heads for a definition of empirical, here it is:

Main Entry: em·pir·i·cal
Pronunciation: -i-k&l
Variant(s): also em·pir·ic
Function: adjective
1 : originating in or based on observation or experience <empirical data>
2 : relying on experience or observation alone often without due regard for system and theory <an empirical basis for the theory>
3 : capable of being verified or disproved by observation or experiment <empirical laws>
4 : of or relating to empiricism

:wink:

[Steve Gibby]

Paul,

Thanks for that generous offer. If Jarred feels that is something he would like to do I would think he would contact you.

Thanks again...

[Michael Hastings]

I've got a good selection of Canon glass (including the 10-22) and would be more than happy to bring it to the LART for testing, however because that particular lens is an EF-S lens, I am not sure it will be compatible with the new mount (EF-S lenses are made specifically for 1.6x FOVCF dSLRs). What I expect is that the mount will only work with standard EF lenses, in which case the widest zoom lens available is the newer 16-35mm f/2.8L II USM.

Birger mount works fine with ef-s lenses like the 10-22, and since the sensor size the S lenses are designed to cover is almost identical to the S35 Red size it should cover it fine. We have been discussing the 10-22 over in the underwater bubble blowers group for about six months as it is the widest lens available at an economical price that has a good chance of working.

By the way, the since the sensor size is nearly identical, Digital Rebels, EOS20, EOS30 and Nikon dslrs should be excellent for getting an idea of how lenses will work with RED.

[Steve Gibby]

By the way, the since the sensor size is nearly identical, Digital Rebels, EOS20, EOS30 and Nikon dslrs should be excellent for getting an idea of how lenses will work with RED.

I hear ya Mike. I shot the DSLR pics of Boris/RED 18-50 CF zoom for my "RED at NAB, Part 1" article in Studio Daily, with a Canon Digital Rebel XTi (D400 in Europe) in 10 megapixel RAW, then processed the RAW pics with the Canon Digital Photo Professional software that came with the XTi.

Article link: http://www.studiodaily.com/main/news/feed.rss/7959.html

The lens I used wasn't the Canon 10-22, but for my in-water watersports shooting with RED One, I'm interested in testing the Canon 10-22. If Birger Canon adaptor and the 10-22 check out well with RED One for my uses, I'll also be able to use the lens on my XTi and Canon 20D...very cool.

I've shot a lot with the XTi recently as my "go anywhere" quickdraw DSLR, and I've been real happy with it. It was only around $700 from B&H.

We'll have the Birger Canon adaptor for LART, so testing Haakon's Canon 10-22 will be something we'll do. We'll have a lot of lenses and setups to bang out so we won't be able to get too much in depth with the 10-22, but we should easily be able to answer the "will the 10-22 work good on RED One?" and "do the images look good when using it?" questions.

[Mark Thorpe]

Hey Gibby,
Just looking through things on the "Ventilation" thread. I'm hoping that one of your tests will be, if not then this is a request, to take a look at all and any effects of heat build up and the positive or negative impact of that when the cameras are locked down in air / watertight enclosures.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Häakon]

Birger mount works fine with ef-s lenses like the 10-22
Ah, well there you go. :) I forgot that the sensor size on the XTi is so close to that of RED's. I will be more than happy to bring my 10-22 to the LART.

[Steve Gibby]

Hey Gibby,
Just looking through things on the "Ventilation" thread. I'm hoping that one of your tests will be, if not then this is a request, to take a look at all and any effects of heat build up and the positive or negative impact of that when the cameras are locked down in air / watertight enclosures.

Cheers,
Mark.

Hey Mark,

Good to see you're back in Palau!

Over all these months of RED One development, RED has mentioned several times that they have paid close attention to the environmental factors of using RED One. Nobody but RED Team knows what their solutions were for heat dissipation, but as thorough as they seem to have been on everything else, I'd guess that they came up with a good solution for that. As all of us who've used cameras in housings know, with certain cameras in certain housings, heat and condensation buildup can be a problem. There's no way of knowing now what we're up against on that with RED One in housings, and there is no way to have a housing made for #8 before the LART testing sessions. As you know, Ken Corben ("Sharkguy") is co-producing LART with me, and questions about RED One in a housing are at the top of his list. Mike Hastings ("aquavideo2006") will be making Ken's new RED One housings, and also my RED One water sports housing. When we get them, probably a few weeks after LART, we'll test them out in various water situations. Then we can post some general impressions here on RED User. Again...IMO RED has paid close attention to heat dissipation issues on RED One and me and Ken plan to ask RED's advice on how they would approach any housing heat dissipation issues...then we'll follow their advice.

Cheers!

[Steve Gibby]

I will be more than happy to bring my 10-22 to the LART.

Awesome...much appreciated!

[Brook Willard]

I'll bring a small collection of Canon [and possibly Nikon] glass to the test. I may also be able to bring a few sets of S16mm and 35mm PL primes and zooms... we'll see. The rental would be free, but it hinges on insurance.

[Steve Gibby]

I'll bring a small collection of Canon [and possibly Nikon] glass to the test. I may also be able to bring a few sets of S16mm and 35mm PL primes and zooms... we'll see. The rental would be free, but it hinges on insurance.

Excellent...much appreciated too!

[Mark Thorpe]

Hey Mark, Good to see you're back in Palau!...IMO RED has paid close attention to heat dissipation issues on RED One and me and Ken plan to ask RED's advice on how they would approach any housing heat dissipation issues...then we'll follow their advice. Cheers!

Good to be back, 4 days capturing footage, now another estimated week for archiving and then the editing starts. Having a blast.

Looking forward to the results of LART. I'm confident RED have done their homework and that it won't be a massive issue but obviously one that any wet shooter should have concerns about. Like I said, I'm sure it won't be a problem.

Cheers,
Mark.

[PaulClements]

Hi LART Folks, just wondering what Follow Focus units you will be comparing against the Birger unit?

[Steve Gibby]

Hi LART Folks, just wondering what Follow Focus units you will be comparing against the Birger unit?

We'll definitely rig-up and test what Birger supplies to us. Since most of the setups during our 2 days will call for a FF (and MB) of some kind, and we'll have 4 cameras to test on, I'm sure we'll also be using lots of other FF and MB. Our tests won't be until the first week of September at the earliest, so we'll be tossing equipment ideas around all the way through the end of August.

[Obin Olson]

are you testing yet?

[chuck colburn]

Reread the previous post.

[zak forrest]

new to this thread, perhaps its been suggested:

i read that the tests are taking place in a studio, does this mean that there will be no tests of low natural light levels, and also bright natural light? preferably handheld lookin all over the place, not just a few static shots in low light...

[Gavin Greenwalt]

It is my understanding that the studio is just a base of operations. I'm sure somebody will go outside.

[Steve Gibby]

The studio will be the staging and testing area (and lunch BBQ!). We'll shoot inside and out, natural light and artificial light - tripod, hand held, and with some stabilizers. We have a team full of excellent cinematographers, with diverse backgrounds in shooting styles, so I'd expect a wide variety of images to be generated. The vibe will be casual but professional - have fun and check out shipping RED One cameras.

As I summarized on Page 20, Post #194 of this thread, LART isn't about techno-geek, micro-analysis of nano-bits, but rather practical, real world equipment setups, shooting, and then examination of footage. LART will be about a talented team generating a lot of images and then seeing how they look - first-look, hands-on setup and shooting sessions, followed by analysis of the footage.

IMO the aesthetics of how the images look is the real bottom line, as it is with any camera system. Tech specs are informative, and obviously we'll pay attention to them, but the aesthetic qualities of the images are what end up being edited, and then downstream versions of them are what the viewing public sees. The ergonomics and ease of utility of various setups in practical field use will be another thing we'll obviously pay attention to as we generate images. Then I'm sure we'll also test the technical parameters of the footage.

We've asked each LART team member to make suggestions for the sessions. They've responded with some excellent lists. In a perfect world, we'd be able to have the time and facilities to do all the tests they've suggested, and all of the great suggestions from RED User members in this thread. That won't happen.

LART will only have 2 days to test, so nobody should expect it to generate a mega RED Wikipedia or a comprehensive guidebook to everything RED. We'll mostly concentrate right into the heart of the bottom line with RED One - how the images from various lens/format/shooting styles actually look.

After the LART sessions each team member has their own busy production schedules to pay attention to, and all four of us who have donated our RED One cameras to the testing will undoubtedly have projects lined up like dominos that we're anxious to plug our cameras into.

The whole team is donating their time and talents to LART. We'll have fun, and generate a lot of images and user impressions!

[Frank Weeks]

Gibby,

What you and the team are doing is very exciting. Once again, thank you and the guys on the team for your considerable efforts.

I look foreword to to seeing every aspect of your tests.

Frank Weeks
Red #852

[donatello b]

"studio will be the staging and testing area (and lunch BBQ!). "

and speaking of lunch/food/drinks ... hey! with all persons bringing camera's and accessories etc. that is alot of mouths to feed , think the last i heard was around 20? that is going to cost hard $$ out of some/everybody's pocket ... anyway i/we can help out in the $ for food dept ?

[Steve Gibby]

"studio will be the staging and testing area (and lunch BBQ!). "

and speaking of lunch/food/drinks ... hey! with all persons bringing camera's and accessories etc. that is alot of mouths to feed , think the last i heard was around 20? that is going to cost hard $$ out of some/everybody's pocket ... anyway i/we can help out in the $ for food dept ?

Thanks for bringing that up Donatello...in the hustle of planning the event we anticipated that everyone would need to eat, but haven't payed enough attention yet to how to pull that off! Suggestions for that are definitely welcome. If you'd like to post them here, that's fine, or if you'd like to PM them to me, that would be great too.

Thanks again for that thought...

[donatello b]

i don't know anything about the behind scene of food dept... i consume it - not much thought on how much planning it takes to get it there ...
i just think that with everybody coming down for 2 days that food should be on the house ( for everybody )and that these test are going to cost you some $ on top of all your time ...
i assume it comes down to X $ per head for lunch, snack/drinks for each day ?
... i'm out of town, i'll PM you mid week to discuss this more ...

[Dominique Grenier]

i don't know anything about the behind scene of food dept... i consume it - not much thought on how much planning it takes to get it there ...
i just think that with everybody coming down for 2 days that food should be on the house ( for everybody )and that these test are going to cost you some $ on top of all your time ...
i assume it comes down to X $ per head for lunch, snack/drinks for each day ?

Down here, when we work on micro budget film (and I mean by that something like $500 ), the "production" (usually the director) provide the food. Depending on what kind of food you want, and assuming you've got somebody who'd like to cook for you (or you could go to a place that make sandwiches), we go for a budget of between $5 and $7 per person per day. That usually include water bottles for everyone, coffee, some collations as well as one meal (lunch). We usually provide some "starter" in the morning (such as muffins) as well as something to eat in between meals (fruits are very inexpensive...).

So I say, a budget of between $200-$300 for 2 days is something you could easily get by, for 20 peoples. You won't have any luxury, but anyone will be happy and ready to work, without loosing time for everyone to go get a lunch.

That's my 2¢.

P.S. BTW, Gibby, did you get my PM?

[Billy Summers]

But who's cooking Donatello?

As most people well know, having good craft services on set is rare. However, BBQ sounds amazing and I would be willing to do/pay whatever it takes to have some quality foods available during LART.

[chuck colburn]

I like my meat hung up for a week.

[Billy Summers]

I like my meat hung up for a week.

I'm sure we could arrange that Chuck!




.

[donatello b]

"BBQ sounds amazing and I would be willing to do/pay whatever it takes to have some quality foods available during LART"

i agree that all of you (including producers) should have quality BBQ food etc .. i don't want any of the group to have to pay for it as everybody is donating time & equipment ... so hopefully we can get some $$ to LART to at least pay for some good food/treats !!

[Blair S. Paulsen]

As one of the testers who is actually bringing a camera I appreciate the willingness of some forum members to show support for our efforts by helping with the craft services piece. I am also happy to throw a $20 or two in the hat when I get there to cover food.

BTW - BBQ sounds great.

Looking forward to the LART.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Hot dogs are perhaps the easiest meal to make on the face of this green earth. Someone can just drop by a Safeway or equivalent grab a tub of potatoe salad from the deli, 4 or 5 bags of buns, doritos, chips and hot dogs and we would be good to go. Also would be really easy to figure up how much it would break down to in cost.

The ol' clip board and hat collection routine usually works very well in these situations.

[Billy Summers]

...As long as everything's organic
:sarcasm:
I'm in...

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Food is definitely a must... I'm a connissieur of fine BBQ and can smoke a mean rack o' ribs myself. Anyway, I'm happy to chip in a bit if needed.

Oh, I don't eat hot dogs.

[Brook Willard]

Gimme some ground beef and a grill and I'm good to go.

[Casey Green]

all sounds good to me. I'm happy to chip in too.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Oh, I don't eat hot dogs.

Haha actually neither do I. I was planning on bringing a can of my Veggielinks.

[wshultz]

Haha actually neither do I. I was planning on bringing a can of my Veggielinks.

I used to love those Loma Linda Veggielinks as a kid. Now they kinda make me gag.

[Ace]

You guys should just get a few sponsor logos stuck on the test sets to pay for it all. Could be good colour exercise too. I imagine these images will be scrutinised by almost every professional in the industry for a while. So advertising dollars in exchange for supporting some local business's would be good!

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I used to love those Loma Linda Veggielinks as a kid. Now they kinda make me gag.

Ex-Adventist? ;)

[wshultz]

Yep. But that's not why they make me gag.

[Nils Ruinet]

You guys should just get a few sponsor logos stuck on the test sets to pay for it all.

Could be funny...
I'm sure Sony / Panasonic / JVC would be interested :tongue:

[Jeff Kilgroe]

You guys should just get a few sponsor logos stuck on the test sets to pay for it all. Could be good colour exercise too. I imagine these images will be scrutinised by almost every professional in the industry for a while. So advertising dollars in exchange for supporting some local business's would be good!

Hmmm... This would ultimately be up to Gibby, but I would think having visible sponsors could be a bad thing. It's supposed to be an impartial and unbiased test. So any sponsors would have to be unrelated to the industry so that question of being impartial isn't raised. Saying that, I'm not so sure other businesses would find it a usable advertising source outlet. Might be able to pull off some swaps for food in exchane for advertising a local BBQ joint.

[Billy Summers]

We chip in ourselves and plaster stickers with OUR names all over the test sets!
Sponsored by: Kilgroe, That One Guy, Sharky, Gibby etc.

One thing I can't understand:
We buy 25k-40k+ cameras but have no money for food?
Either we blew our wads in their entirety, or we're just plain stupid...

[Jeff Kilgroe]

We chip in ourselves and plaster stickers with OUR names all over the test sets!
Sponsored by: Kilgroe, That One Guy, Sharky, Gibby etc.

Hehe... I didn't want sound to imposing, but I wouldn't mind pitching in a bunch and having banners/signs promoting my companies all over the place in every shot. :) So yeah, I had already thought of that.

But Billy's right... No reason we all shouldn't be able to pitch in a bit for food and other supplies. We're not broke (or shouldn't be) as we're spending a lot to buy these cameras and many of us are already coming in from out of state at our own expense to play with these new toys. And if most of you guys are like me, probably didn't think twice about the cost of travel and missing a few days of work or whatever.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I don't think the cost is the problem so much as determining who's going to be spending the money where and on what and how it's going to be kept warm if it needs to be warm or cold if it needs to be cold.

We *could* just go across a street and eat out en-masse.

[chuck colburn]

Tyler Texas BBQ

[chuck colburn]

I don't think the cost is the problem so much as determining who's going to be spending the money where and on what and how it's going to be kept warm if it needs to be warm or cold if it needs to be cold.

We *could* just go across a street and eat out en-masse.

I'm good at grilling so I could take charge of that. Besides I love handling really exspensive optics with my hands covered in pork fat.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Perhaps we should just move this food discussion to the REDTest forum? Although I'm sure lots of people find it fascinating ;)

[Steve Gibby]

LOL...its better for the LART team members during the testing days to be hungry for RED knowledge, not hungry for food...but we'll figure out the food angle and keep everyone well fed. The studio we're testing at has a good BBQ setup/kitchen area. We'll make sure there's plenty of good quality chow for "da boyz"!

Yeah, we can move this culinary conundrum over to private LART chat. The cool thing is that some individuals have contacted me in private and offered to donate to the food budget for LART - something that is much appreciated by me and I'm sure also by the other LART team members. Thanks guys!

[Steve Gibby]

Lucas Wilson ("Luki" on RED User) of Assimilate has offered to supply their SCRATCH systems for use by the LART team...an offer me and Ken Corben have accepted on behalf of LART.

This will allow LART to work with RED files natively at 4k

http://www.assimilateinc.com/

Thanks for stepping up with that support Lucas!

Much appreciated...

[Mark Thorpe]

Good luck with it all.

Mark.

[Andrew Benz]

Lucas Wilson ("Luki" on RED User) of Assimilate has offered to supply their SCRATCH systems for use by the LART team...an offer me and Ken Corben have accepted on behalf of LART.

This will allow LART to work with RED files natively at 4k

http://www.assimilateinc.com/

Thanks for stepping up with that support Lucas!

Much appreciated...

Wow, that IS very gracious... cheers and thank you Lucas!

[Ace]

lol, I actually meant making some money off it. Not paying for food! heh heh

[Blair S. Paulsen]

First off, thanks Lucas - I have heard many great things about Scratch. OTOH I am thinking we might want to test some other workflows as well. RedCine output using the built in "one light" CC engine, and, if available at the time of the LART, a FCP 6.1/Color pipeline.

We may have far too little time to address these color grading permutations during the 2 days scheduled but since not everyone will be able to kick down the bank for a Scratch seat it does warrant investigation - even if it takes place after the LART.

Along the lines of this issue I am wondering what we will use as the definitive real time or near real time monitoring solution? I am guessing that neither the single or dual link SDI outputs will be operational at the time of the LART which leaves us with the 5" LCD???

Perhaps we can sneaker-net the RedDrives or RedRam or CF cards to the Scratch stations? I have an eCinema evaluation monitor I can bring if the producers would like (limited to single link HD-SDI which means 4:2:2 1080P tops but with the bonus that it will display actual frame rates including 23.98) and I understand that the facility has some high end monitoring options that the Scratch stations could drive, presumably via dual link HD-SDI in 4:4:4 color space at 1080P or perhaps 2K???

Mine eyes wish to see the glory :love:

[Jarred Land]

I am guessing that neither the single or dual link SDI outputs will be operational at the time of the LART

i wouldn't put any money on that if I were you.. (wink wink)