Leica R lenses on RED

[Sanjin Jukic]

Leica R lenses on RED

It was discussed before but should be repeated again:

Leica R lenses on RED

Bruce Allen, a member of this forum wrote at HD4Indies.com (http://www.hdforindies.com/2007/06/bruce-allens-cinegear-2007-report.html) the following:
"Dalsa...They also had a beautiful set of non-anamorphic PL mount primes - mostly Leica glass, plus Canons for the extreme zooms. They feel that the Leica glass is superior to Zeiss and Cooke for 4k acquisition...

http://web.mac.com/mikedcurtis/iWeb/HD4NDs_Image_Galleries/CineGear2007_files/dalsa_leica_primes.jpg
dalsa_leica_primes, photo by bruce allen

How you could attach Leica R lenses on RED?

Very simple. Just attach Leica R lens adapter to Canon EOS on upcoming Birger EOS mount to RED.

http://www.sanjinjukic.com/extras/canon_eos_adapters.jpg
Leica R lens adapter to Canon EOS on the right side.

Then you could use "Leica R high-performance lenses that are meticulously handcrafted of exclusive high-grade materials, and are designed for long life. The extensive range of R system lenses covers focal lengths from 15 mm to 800 mm, and, with the LEICA APO-EXTENDER-R 2x even up to 1,600 mm."
http://www.leica-camera.us/photography/r_system/lenses/

Also you could buy each lens separately. You don't have to buy set. Just choose what you need.
And they are all manual, primes and zooms/vario lenses.

[luis bustamante]

Thanks for the info. Do you know anything about using Leica M lenses on the Red?

[Bruce Allen]

Sanjin, we'll do some detective work to find out if those are actually re-housed Leica Rs... I think you are right though. They are available for rent and I know a guy who owns half a Red and will be renting through Dalsa, so I'll see if I can rent 'em and then we'll try to do some comparisons between your Birger-ized Canon mount Leicas and the Dalsa Leicas. I must admit they looked really, really nice sitting next to the Master Primes and Cookes. Also kinda compact.

I'll put the full res JPG up on my server in a few hours' time so you can scrutinize if you want. I am going on a component-buying expedition for my monitor now.

You would have appreciated their anamorphic 50mm 1.4 too. Nice bokeh. Little breathing. Just the ticket for a 2.35 feature.

Cheers

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[number6]

Oooooooh! Makes me lusty!

[Matt Uhry]

Maximum speed on some of those wide and medium wide leica's was 2.8 which is not especially inspiring in a prime. Dalsa does have a set of Master Primes and a set of S4's so you can still be friends and buy them beers.

The reason they made these converted Leica R lens sets is because the origin sensor is BIG, active area 34x17.2mm lots of the cine primes did not cover or did not perform all that well at the extreme edges.

I'm sure we'll hear from Illya about this before too long.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Evin Grant]

Sanjin, I know you're excited about the Eos-Leica R/Nikon F adapters but I's still a bit concerned about thier sturdyness and stability. You are introducing a completely new set of connection points and possible manufacturing tollerance differences that may impact performace both mechanically and optically. We will have to test of course but I'm relatively sure that Red would make a Leica R mount for you if you asked. Also the flange focal distance of the R mount is 47mm, nikon F is 46.5mm, it should be fairly easy to adapt any Leica R lens to Nikon F mount thus giving you the benefit of both lens systems without adapters or switching mounts.

[Bruce Allen]

Okay, as promised, here are full res pics of the Dalsa Leicas:
http://www.boacinema.com/projects/misc_photos/dalsa_leicas_fullres_2.jpg

And a wide shot including their Canon zooms (DigiPrimes are above, a piece of a Master Prime is in the top-left corner)
http://www.boacinema.com/projects/misc_photos/dalsa_leica_and_canons_fullres_1.jpg

And a close-up of their Canon zooms (that's a Cooke next to them)
http://www.boacinema.com/projects/misc_photos/dalsa_canons_fullres_3.jpg

Again, I loved their anamorphic 1.4 and am very much looking forward to seeing how their 6-lens set turns out...

I seriously think Dalsa can be a friend to Red users. No reason why we can't shoot mostly on Red but rent their camera for a day or two if we hit a CMOS motion issue or some kind of latitude or sensitivity issue. Of course the Red may be superior in terms of latitude and sensitivity but who knows - it's nice having a backup right? I thought their footage looked really, really good. It's good having two 4K cameras, let's hope they don't go bankrupt.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Sanjin Jukic]

Luis>>
As i know Leica M lenses only work with Leica M camera series analog or digital. Leica M lens flange focal distance is too short for any kind of adapter. Could be or could be not possible to make a special adapter for RED, I don't know. A lens engineer should be contacted.

Allen>>
Thanks for all Cinegear info and looking forward to your comparative tests. And a good luck with your monitor development.

Evin>>
Very good idea about Leica R to RED mount. Another good idea is that Jim could cooperate with Leica on a similar basis like Panasonic is doing. This cooperation could be named Leica on RED 4K cinematography lens division. Also I am not sure that anybody could make better 4K lenses than Leica did for 35mm still cameras. In general no Zeiss, Cooke, Panavision, Angeniux, Canon, Fuji, Nikon, Russians can compete with Leica picture quality.

[ZzzZZz...]

Maybe you are right... but then again maybe you aren´t.
The differences are hardly noticeable, and for most applications irrelevant. Watch out for the Brand Fetish boys.

[PaulClements]

Watch out for the Brand Fetish boys.

I've never heard of Fetish boys lenses. Are they any good? :)

[ZzzZZz...]

Leica is not really in line with the red revolution. As in bringing it to the people at affordable prices.
Lets face it Leica is candy for snobs and thats great, each his own.
But me thinks jannard has been looking at some of those highquality russian cine lenses instead and thought, hmmm... value for money. These might fit boris and natasha rather nicely...

not sure though...

[chuck colburn]

Sanjin, I know you're excited about the Eos-Leica R/Nikon F adapters but I's still a bit concerned about thier sturdyness and stability. You are introducing a completely new set of connection points and possible manufacturing tollerance differences that may impact performace both mechanically and optically. We will have to test of course but I'm relatively sure that Red would make a Leica R mount for you if you asked. Also the flange focal distance of the R mount is 47mm, nikon F is 46.5mm, it should be fairly easy to adapt any Leica R lens to Nikon F mount thus giving you the benefit of both lens systems without adapters or switching mounts.

Good morning Evin,

I think the half a millimeter (appx. .020") difference between the Leica and the Nikon is not enough to allow the fabrication of an adapter. Not enough "meat" there.

Chuck

[Illya Friedman]

Maximum speed on some of those wide and medium wide leica's was 2.8 which is not especially inspiring in a prime. Dalsa does have a set of Master Primes and a set of S4's so you can still be friends and buy them beers.

The reason they made these converted Leica R lens sets is because the origin sensor is BIG, active area 34x17.2mm lots of the cine primes did not cover or did not perform all that well at the extreme edges.

I'm sure we'll hear from Illya about this before too long.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

In addition to Master, Ultra, Super Speeds, Angenieux 24-290 and 17-80 zooms, we actually have several sets of Cooke’s including both S4 and S4/i, and Cmotion systems.

Actually most lenses perform admirably, it's only the wider lenses that have issue with coverage/fall off. And that depends on the aspect ratio you're shooting. If you are shooting 2.40 you can go with wider 3rd party lenses than if you shoot full sensor 2:1.

That being said we had one client recently who chose to shoot with a 31mm extraction so they could use ANY lens on the camera. With an extraction, I think the net resolution is about 3.6K.

Just to put this in perspective, the Origin/EVO sensors are just slightly larger than 35mm academy. It's nothing like the Phantom 65 (which we'll have available as soon as it rolls of the factory floor) one of the issues with the P65 is choosing appropriate glass for that monster sensor- it's about 50mm diagonal.

Of course all our Dalsa 4K lenses are full coverage. Data sheets were released at Cine Gear and I'm sure the info will be migrating to our website soon. Our website also quotes some praise from Dave Stump recently. His exact quote is “These are absolutely stunning, beautiful lenses, and are on par with anything available in the cine realm,”

I.

www.dalsa.com/dc

P.S. Matt, did I understand that correctly... Beer is on you?

[Evin Grant]

Good morning Evin,

I think the half a millimeter (appx. .020") difference between the Leica and the Nikon is not enough to allow the fabrication of an adapter. Not enough "meat" there.

Chuck

By adapt I mean permanently attach, I've seen Nikon mount Leica R lenses on Ebay a few times.

[chuck colburn]

By adapt I mean permanently attach, I've seen Nikon mount Leica R lenses on Ebay a few times.

Yep, I can see that. The all metal build of the Leica lenses and the precision of their mechanics would be attractive. Even with the "relatively" slower stops.

[Ray Flynn]

i think these lenses are rehoused. The focus mark look different than the R lenses i have shot on, far more film style in size.

[chuck colburn]

imageray,

Which lenses?

[Ray Flynn]

as far as leica being high end on the pricing scheme, you may want to keep this in mind. a top notch leica fixed focal length lens runs $2000 to $4000 usd. and that is in the same range as a red prime(5 for $19,000).
i have have shot both M and R glass on assignment and in my opinion it is the finest glass in the world excepting a few focal lengthes by canon, nikon and zeiss. in b&w it has no match.
anyway just another opinion. ray.

[Ray Flynn]

the lenses pictured in the jpeg of the link.

[Ray Flynn]

sorry correction the R lenses pictured on page 1 on this blog

[chuck colburn]

i think these lenses are rehoused. The focus mark look different than the R lenses i have shot on, far more film style in size.

Yes, I agree with you that they are rehoused (shelled). So that they have a common front diameter and from what I can tell also a common gear ring diameter.

Went to the Leica site and I see that their lenses rotate in the proper (cine) direction like the Zeiss (most anyways) lenses do for the Contax cameras. So this leads me to believe that the Dalsa lenses are just new shells. But I could be wrong. lol
Nice selection of optics though.

http://www.leica-camera.us/photography/r_system/lenses/506.html

[mike d]

Ok, here is the deal im reading all these posts about red and dalsa and it seems that lot of members in here dont like dalsa. Personally i had a chance to work on a show and preped the dalsa camera. Let me tell you what a great facility it is a joy to prep there. Knowledgable people and very professional. I also do like the red camera i think it is ground breaking product. im going to dalsa again and im going to post some picture of their facility for everyone to see.I acttually got to play with these lenses they have and man o man they are buttery smooth no breathing at all sharp and true T stop values also marked. one other important aspect is all there lenses get serviced and certified by a well know lens maker.Cant wait to see red in action.:cold: :innocent:

[Sanjin Jukic]

Leica rocks.
Could be nice to see it on RED and with RED together in the future.

[J. Bernard Vallon]

Dalsa has done a lot of groundbreaking stuff for digital imaging. Most of there products end up costing buku bucks, origin, digital hasselblad, the 6x17 digital 160mpxl deal.

I wonder if they are a chip manufacturer at heard, and the rest of the equipment isnt really there concern, which is why it ends up being expensive and sometimes difficult to work with (so i hear, i havent had the chance to work with any of those uber-cool products).

[Alexander Nikishin]

I very much so respect Dalsa for their commitment to image quality, but RED is not only on par with Dalsa, most importantly, it's making things happen, big things.

How's 5 feature film deals? That proves RED's quality.

I expect RED's lens quality to be top notch as well.

[Sanjin Jukic]

My idea was if you want the best glass right now you should buy it somewhere (if it's available). To develop a top-notch glass takes decades. But you need it now because of the camera launch etc...
By the way Leica was in troubles, needed cash flow(2-3 years ago), that how the two rich Austrian stock brokers did buy out of Leica stocks. But I am not sure if these guys are a right one for the Leica's survival and future.
Technically and mechanically you could re-barrel and re-house the lenses, accommodate and offer them for the cinema acquisition, digital and analog. That is exactly what Dalsa did. But they would rent them only. Maybe one or two sets. That's OK, but the better is to allow wider user audience to get it for a good price. It was just an idea.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/KubrickForLook.jpg
Self-Portrait of Kubrick with a Leica III camera, when he worked for Look.

[Nick Wolf]

Hello and greetings to fellow explorers and pioneers!

Thanks very much for any responces. I stumbled onto this site recently and am so grateful for the generous exchange of knowledge amongst proffessionals and novices alike in the spirit of Science and Art.

I have a bunch of Leica lenses laying around an inheritance of sorts and I would like to know if its a doable proposition to somehow use them with RED or to ditch them and go for something more accessible in terms of mounts etc.

Leica R-Elmarit 60/2.8 Macro
Leica R-Elmarit 24/2.8
Leica R-Elmarit 28/2.8
Leica R- Summicron 35/2.0
Leica R- Summicron 50/2.0
Leica R- Elmarit 90/2.8
Leica R- Elmarit 180/2.8

What are they good for? (Functionaly in relation to RED).
What would you do with them if you were in my position?
Sell-Toss-Shelve-Arrange costume mounts-Rehouse-Which Options make sence if any of the above?

If these (Leicas)are a viable solution at all how do they stand up to the:

Nikon 17-35mm f2.8 AF-S
Nikkor 28mm f1.4 AFD
Nikkor 85mm f1.4 AIS/AF-D

Which route to build on? The Plus / minus and hassle factor taken into account when considering the assembly of a nice solid series to start with?

Once again,

Thanks!

[jbeale]

I have a Leica R mount lens, a Summicron-R (50mm/2) which I've used on my Canon 20D (with EOS adaptor ring). The lens is well crafted and the focus action is wonderfully smooth. However, in my opinion, the pictures I have taken with it are really no different than those using the Canon 50/1.4.

edit: actually there is a compositional difference in the photos. Because it's fully manual lens, I tend to use it in a different way. But I guess I don't see much technical difference optically.

[PaulClements]

Hi,

You could use the Leica R with the Birger Canon mount and Leica to EOS adapters. Probably the most affordable way to use them. Rehousing them would be fairly pointless in my opinion. You could buy faster cine primes for similar amounts and rest assured they will deliver optically.

The lenses will only be able to be used manually of course so you will have problems with focusing; short & reverse focus throw, slightly stiffer than cine lenses. That being said they could be put to use for low budget/personal projects. I'd be happy to use basically any lens if I'm shooting for fun. If there is a lot riding on delivering the shot, however, I probably wouldn't want too.

Paul

[Sanjin Jukic]

We still have to see when is shipping Birger EOS to RED mount. Then to use Leica R to EOS adapter (Zoerk (http://www.zoerk.com/Zoerk%20info/product_guide_current.pdf)) and test it.

[Nick Wolf]

Hello, jbeale, Paul, and Third Man and all others who read this.

Prompt and concise answers indeed and you have saved me (And I am sure many others out there with similar hazey understanding-misunderstandings surrounding just these concerns) from many a headache...

It makes total sence to have something for fun-hobby-macro budget to always have around to shoot-learn-experiment with...Having an audience of more than one ( Yourself vs A paying decerning one ) however, is entirely another matter, that deserves a safe and qualified proven delivery standard when making that determining choice that so crucially effects what results are seen and experienced in relation to RED...

I suspected that but wasn`t 100% sure, so thanks for putting those concerns to rest once and for all...Now I know where the lenses belong and their proper range and realm of use in the wider context of things!!!

Thank you very much for your time and thoughts they are very much appreciated ...

Would the nikon-nikkor options listed above fall into the same catagory so to speak as these particular Leicas or are they somehow on another level?

Somewhere between enabling operative exploration for personal growth or on the other hand, Belonging to an arrsonal of Glass designed to satisfy the higher demands of a proffessional paying costumer who expect results on par with competitive industry standards?

Where and to what degree between those two catagories do the Nikon - Nikkors appropriately land?

Cheers!

DogDay.

[chuck colburn]

Some (like a lot) Leica Lenses focus cinewise.

[PaulClements]

Hello, jbeale, Paul, and Third Man and all others who read this.

Prompt and concise answers indeed and you have saved me (And I am sure many others out there with similar hazey understanding-misunderstandings surrounding just these concerns) from many a headache...

It makes total sence to have something for fun-hobby-macro budget to always have around to shoot-learn-experiment with...Having an audience of more than one ( Yourself vs A paying decerning one ) however, is entirely another matter, that deserves a safe and qualified proven delivery standard when making that determining choice that so crucially effects what results are seen and experienced in relation to RED...

I suspected that but wasn`t 100% sure, so thanks for putting those concerns to rest once and for all...Now I know where the lenses belong and their proper range and realm of use in the wider context of things!!!

Thank you very much for your time and thoughts they are very much appreciated ...

Would the nikon-nikkor options listed above fall into the same catagory so to speak as these particular Leicas or are they somehow on another level?

Somewhere between enabling operative exploration for personal growth or on the other hand, Belonging to an arrsonal of Glass designed to satisfy the higher demands of a proffessional paying costumer who expect results on par with competitive industry standards?

Where and to what degree between those two catagories do the Nikon - Nikkors appropriately land?

Cheers!

DogDay.

Hi,

You can never have too many options so having those Leica lenses is by no means a bad thing. For instance you could shoot stock footage of scenery and the like quite easily. Anything that you focus by eye should give good results.

The Nikkors are slightly different in that the intended Birger Nikon mount will access the Auto Focus controls of the AF/S lenses. By connecting to this it removes some of the problems inherent in still lenses and should (We hope) allow a more cine lens + follow focus like experience to be had. Negating expensive modifications to the lenses.

Using still lenses in any form or fashion will still be frowned upon by a good many given that they have not been designed with the intended use of working in a cine environment. Cine lenses cost a lot of money because they are precision optics and made specifically for this industry.

Fingers crossed though, we'll be able to use some still lenses and get "close to" results. If a DP or producer can be shown that the use and results of them are up to scratch I'm sure we'll see a few people happy to adopt them.

Bottom line if you want to be using your Red exclusively for the high end cinematography then PL mount cine lenses is the way to go. I'll personally be using either a 2nd hand zoom, Red zoom's or still lenses and suggesting to any clients with larger budgets to rent Cooke or Zeiss cine lenses.

Paul

[Nick Wolf]

Hello All...

Are there any known cases of actual Feature Length Motion Pictures where Leica R lenses were used throughout?

Which ones and in what condition...As-is Still Camera with intermediary mounts or Re-housed etc for proper Cine use?

That would be sort of the proof of the pudding to have several references to watch and judge capabilities in action.

BTW has that been done to anyones knowledge a kind of database catalogue of lenses used for specific Scenes from Films to sort of bridge the gap in communications and decision making. Sort of like having a common palette to have as a referential compass so that people from different backgrounds and levels of experience and know how when brought together for whatever circumstances could easily establish a short hand language between them.

That would be fun a list of lense brands and their repective focal lengths etc and other characteristic properties and then a list of Films beside them demonstrating the effects attained by them thus allowing for quick comparison.

Cheers Guys!!!

DogDay.

[brickwall]

they would be even better then competitive Arri/Zeiss, Cooke or Angenieux lenses

I question whether this would actually be true. After all, Leica R and M lenses are optimized for a much larger format size than Arri/Zeiss, Cooke, or Angenieux. Also, Leica publishes performance data for all their lenses, and although they appear to have some good designs, I am aware of significantly better ones, particularly at the larger apertures. Also, none of the Leica R or M series are corrected for breathing, which seems to me to be a serious shortcoming.

I do wish that Arri/Cooke/Angenieux would publish performance data for their cine lenses, so that a truly realistic comparison could be made.

[Nick Wolf]

Hi Brickwall.

If you have any links where that Leica data (or any other for that matter you think would be relevent to this thread) is published can you please post them here for us to check out?

Thanks,

DogDay.

[brickwall]

Hi Brickwall.

If you have any links where that Leica data (or any other for that matter you think would be relevent to this thread) is published can you please post them here for us to check out?

Thanks,

DogDay.

Leica publish .pdf format files online that provide MTF at several apertures, distortion, and illumination falloff for all of their current M and R lenses. R series: http://www.leica-camera.us/photography/r_system/lenses/

M series: http://www.leica-camera.us/photography/m_system/lenses/

Zeiss publish nearly identical data for most of their photograhpic lenses, but not for any of their cine lenses: http://www.zeiss.com/photo . Nikon, Canon, Sigma, and Olympus also publish similar data, although in the case of Nikon and Canon the MTF curves are apparently calculated ignoring the effects of diffraction, so they are not as reliable:

http://nikonimaging.com/global/products/lineup.htm
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ProductCatIndexAct&fcategoryid=111
http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/lens/dea/products/lens/index.asp
http://www.sigmaphoto.com/lenses/lenses_all.asp