Jvc 4k/8k

[Zach Nelson]

http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/12/jvc-debuts-8k-4k-prototype-camcorders-moviemakers-drool/

[Steve Freebairn]

The first thing I thought when I saw this is it looks like they stuffed a RED one in a case. It'd be nice if they posted any other specs, since right now it could be priced at 10x the price and record to a refrigerator raid.

[Michael P. Schmidt]

look's nice in the first place ... but i think we have to wait and see ...

if it beats the RED ? ... i don't think so! ;)

[Graeme Nattress]

Did anyone see this camera at NAB? I took a look. It looked like a one-off prototype, and had a fibre cable to a hefty rackmount box of electronics to generate the 4 HD-SDI so you could view the image. It was live-view only - no recording and practically no controls on the camera itself. It seemed to be for video conferencing or medical applications...

Graeme

[IAN SUN]

What tha ??
C'mon JVC I know the economy is tight, but surely you could have borrowed a designer from another department, it takes more that pixels to make me drool!

[Neil Larson]

I'm very interested to see how this develops. I'm thinking there's got to be some sort of catch.......oh, but it's 80 grand, or oh..........it's not RAW.

Time will tell I guess.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I didn't attend NAB this year, but they had the same camera on display last year. Except it was housed in a bulky white metal box. Still had the fiber cable running to an external system that generated 4 x HD-SDI. I wasn't impressed then. It seems that all they have done in the past year is put it in a slightly more elegant, but still huge and butt-ugly, housing and now claim it can do 8K as well.

The Ultra-High-Def NHK stuff is far more interesting, IMO. And they have that camera down to a size that's almost manageable. Too bad the video quality is still horrid, apart from the resolution, but I hear it did improve since last year. Or maybe it's just because they had a much more elaborate NAB display this year to suck in more people.

[Graeme Nattress]

There's no claim on the camera doing 8k. I think the 8k was a projector mentioned in the article, not a camera. The article seems to mix up cameras and projectors, and looking at the original article here: http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/news-18076-JVC%20intros%20a%20new%208%20and%204k%20video%20pr ojector%20and%20a%204k%20compact%20Video%20Camera. html it talks about 8k and 4k D-ILA projectors and a new 4K camera. You'd think they'd actually read the original article eh?? The headline "moviemakers drool" is not referenced anywhere, because it's just made up by the guy writing the article it would seem. Oh dear...

Graeme

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Heh. I guess you're right, after I took the time to read it. Somewhat of a give-away that they're confusing projector and camera tech, when the engadget author says that the cameras use D-ILA technology.

Anyway, I don't think JVC is that serious about this technology yet. As far as I can tell, the only thing they did with it in the past year is put it in a slightly prettier box and make it a bit more visible at NAB this time around (or so it seems, I wasn't there).

[Roberto Lequeux]

the 8k projector sounds sweet, the design of the camera is sorta sexy to me... though a bit big.

we'll see how it develops but it doesn't seem it will be that big of a deal... unless they have some other killer specs in mind... that is plenty resolution for me.
And is the 8k projector coming out to support Red's cameras? Sounds like it would help make Epic 645 the new IMAX? something or other... :)

[Jeff Kilgroe]

This current JVC 4K system actually dates back about 2 years ago.

Here's a link from June '07 and this is the camera that was at NAB last year, I believe they also showed it at CEDIA as well and it had a larger presence there.

http://www.definitionmagazine.com/2007/06/jvc-enter-4k-world.html

[BradWright]

Did anyone see this camera at NAB? I took a look. It looked like a one-off prototype, and had a fibre cable to a hefty rackmount box of electronics to generate the 4 HD-SDI so you could view the image. It was live-view only - no recording and practically no controls on the camera itself. It seemed to be for video conferencing or medical applications...

Graeme

JVC seems to have not thought this through from a Post workflow standpoint. They are obviously feeling the heat in their HD only line of products. The industry is moving towards quad HD. It's hard to believe that just a few years back Pro SD cameras were selling for top $$$$.

[Graeme Nattress]

Exactly - no word on workflow at all. It was for "live" applications only as far as I could see.

Moving images are no longer tied to a "standard" resolution, PAL / NTSC / HD etc. any more, and really, there's no reason why they should be and no good reason why delivery should be the same pixel dimension as acquisition.

Graeme

[Tom Lowe]

Cool. Hopefully they will put out a 4K version that can hit at least 60p.

RAW would be nice, too. But somehow I doubt they will have something in place like REDRAW. Probably just traditional baked-in looks, which is fine. Price is the big question.

Somehow I knew that the announcement would begin not long after NAB. These guys know they need to play catch up, and do it fast. Look for more announcements justs like this, probably from Canon and others, long before the next NAB.

[Zack Birlew]

Well, if they're basically putting four 1080P sensors in there to cheat 4K then there could be some problems. What if one of the sensors doesn't align properly or output the same image as the others? Isn't that what happened with the JVC HD100U when it first came out?

[Sam Winzar]

So it seems like JVC have built the world's greatest webcam!

[Ethan Cooper]

So it seems like JVC have built the world's greatest webcam!

My thoughts exactly. They've developed a camera that is more or less a $200K webcam. Their press release talks about teleconferencing and distance learning. Really? That's what you made this thing for? Hmmm. Odd.

[Steven Hilder]

From JVC's press release (http://pro.jvc.com/pro/pr/2009/nab/kyf4000.html):

Other 4K cameras on the market, such as RED and Arri, are primarily used for cinema applications which do not require live signal output. This makes JVC the unique choice for high-end applications including:

Teleconference
CAD/Design
Distance Learning


Since when is teleconferencing a more high-end application than filmmaking? That's a pretty strange way of trying to justify the ~$200,000 cost.

[Eric.T]

mhh there target marked is the live 4k feed. and i was thinking wouldn't it be possible to connect the red one with something like red ray over the service usb ports to get an live 4k debayering out of redray ?? the data rates of redraw should be able to be handelt by usb ? i dont know maybe i missed something. but i think if i got this correct the only thing that is preventing the red one to put out an live 4k image is the restriction of the processing power in the camera. but if you would outsource the debayering to something like redray or red rocket it should be possible to get an live 4k feed out.i dont know why somebody would do that but i think it would be possible. Graeme any comment on this ? :)

[Petr Dvorak]

I think that on Fresh DV video from NAB they talked about 100K price point and now its 200K, wow. And next year release.... wow

http://www.freshdv.com/nab
third from bottom

btw Sharp already had some glued 4 HD chip 4K cameras for 4K videoconferencing couple years ago.

[Craig Ryan]

Bring on the 8k projector! The more options theater's have to choose from the better.

[David Mullen ASC]

I've heard one rumor that this JVC camera is just borrowing the RGB striped sensor from the F35/Genesis (which has 4MP each of red, green, and blue filtered photosites, 12MP total, one 2MP set per color for normal response and a second 2MP set for bright highlight information) and rather than using its secondary rows of stripes for improved highlight information to create 1080P with better dynamic range, they are using the secondary row to help create the 4K image, I guess somehow boosting the luminence of the darkened row to match that of the normal row. So rather than combining and downsampling this info to 1080P RGB with better dynamic range, it's converting it to 4K with less dynamic range.

This is also why it is a live 60P image, since the F35 can handle 60P.

I also think it's perhaps naturally "3.8K 4:2:2" due to the number of HD-SDI outputs its running to the projector, but I could be wrong in that.

[Joseph Ward]

Any news on Reds live output/real-time? This function @ least for 1080P 60P would be the clincher for broadcasters, if Red were to do it.

[Cory Schulthies]

here is my question, couldnt Epic do the same thing (output 4k in realtime) if red added a module designed to do that to the camera. And I bet the camera and module would be less that $200K.

Not as good as red, but still i welcome more players into the 4k+ space. Competition pushes technological advances.

I wonder what Jim would have to say about these developments. But i bet JVC is the furthest thing from his mind right now.

[David Mullen ASC]

I don't see much need for 4K RGB live monitoring with full quality debayering. It's such a niche application. 1080P would be fine in most cases for live outputting.

I seem to recall that Jim said they could put an uncompressed data output on their cameras but they'd charge something insanely high to do that, like making it a $100,000 option. In other words, don't ask.

But maybe they'll change their minds. However, I see the usefulness of an uncompressed RAW output not really for the purposes of generating a live 4K image.

[Iannis Holwech]

I guess engadget got their “panties in a twist” in pure excitement and the announcement should have been more like this; http://www.electronista.com/articles/09/05/12/jvc.8k.projector.4k.cam/


JVC have been "blasting their horns" about this camera and 4K & 8/4K projector every 6 months for some years.

Till now I never seen a report on the performance of the 4K projector nor if it really is possible to buy yet.
Can it project movies as good as the Sony 4K? Which has not impressed the "high end HT boys". The 2K JVC HT projector has its fanboys, but is not deemed good enough for high end due to uneven light uniformity.

The camera is due "next year", which they said last year too.

Like mr. Mullen explained, the 8K projector is "8K ish";


October 2008.
http://colorfront.blogspot.com/2008/10/jvc-unveils-8k4k-projector-w-11000001.html

The prototype projector is mounted with four microdisplays, which are three 3,840 × 2,160 pixel microdisplays and one 8,192 × 4,320 pixel microdisplay, developed by JVC as display devices.

To display an image, a full-color image is made by using the three 3,840 × 2,160 pixel display devices, and an 8,192 × 4,320 pixel monochrome image is made based on the luminance component of input signals. Then, those two images are combined to produce an image. The contrast ratio of 1.1 million to one is the product of the contrast ratios of the two images.
A 3chip 4K + 1chip monochrom 8K system.

May 2008; http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/37243/113/


The good thing with these 4K announcements; like Sony and Warner announcing that all their new movies will be released in 4K and the $315mill deal Sony struck with AMC Entertainment theaters group (http://displaydaily.com/2009/04/03/sony-amc-in-major-4k-cinema-deal/) is that it will hopefully force Texas Instruments to reveal what their plans are for 4K DLP rather sooner than later.

By the way, when we are about projectors;
Sony Professional Announces First European 3D Digital on 4K cinema experience from Sony and RealD. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1146735)

[michael zaletel]

And yet I still cannot find a single low serial number USED Red One Body for sale at a reasonable premium over original retail price. :)

-michael zaletel
(shooter)

[Iannis Holwech]

This JVC 8K projector is in fact a new version of the one they promoted last year.


http://www.jvc-victor.co.jp/english/press/2009/3xd-ila.pdf


Primary features

1. The projector is fully compatible with the Super Hi-Vision standard (7,680 x 4,320) being promoted by NHK.
Conventional Super Hi-Vision projectors render images with 4,000 TV lines using an 8.29-megapixel (3,840 x 2,160) single display device and leveraging adaptive pixel correlation technique to adjust the RGB green component; this means that the red and blue components are not fully covered.

The new projector, however, uses a 35-megapixel (8,192 x 4,320) D-ILA single display panel that provides full coverage of each RGB component to 4,000TV lines.

2. The new projector generates a high light output of 10,000 lumens - or one-and-a-half times greater than two conventional DLA-SH4K models - and provides sufficient brightness fordisplays as wide as 400 to 600 inches, each pixel approximately 1 sq. mm in size.

Development Background
In 1996, JVC embarked on the development of Ultra High Definition image systems as the successor to High-Vision Definition.

The company developed the first 7.86-megapixel (3,840 X 2,048 pixels) 4K2K D-ILA device in fall 2000 and began supplying projectors containing this device for research applications in March 2001. In June 2007, JVC developed a 1.27-inch 4K2K D-ILA device having a 6.8μm pixel pitch and resolution of 4,096 x 2,400 pixels, and in February 2008 it began marketing a newly commercialized professional D-ILA projector - the DLA-SH4K - incorporating that device.
JVC has also been contributing to research and development of Ultra High Definition image systems at home and abroad by cooperating in the standardization of Digital Cinema Initiative (DCI) 4K2K specifications and by providing projectors for the Super Hi-Vision 8K4K system currently being developed by NHK.
Although the use of Full HD continues to spread among households worldwide, research and development into new television broadcasting standards that go beyond HD is gathering steam, and significant efforts are being made to satisfy growing demand for next-generation highdefinition imaging solutions for applications ranging from digital cinema and presentations to monitoring/control and health care.

JVC's new full-coverage, high-resolution Super Hi-Vision D-ILA Projector satisfies this growing demand for ultra-high-definition imaging by providing the world's highest resolution. In addition to the contribution that the projector will make to the advance of Japan’s broadcast television industry, JVC is certain that this new product can also contribute to the commercialization of Super Hi-Vision.