Rumor started in LA

[Greg M]

A DP friend in L.A. just called and said he was told the Red camera has just been killed and that development has ceased.

I told him this was not true, in fact Jim posted just yesterday that in March we would have more detail on the initial package.

Just curious how this started.

Jarred edit:

not true.. of course.

[Jason Ramsey]

haters

[Jason Francois]

I know it wasn't me, but that still leaves a lot of people. :)

[Mark Thorpe]

You hit the nail on the head its a ........

RUMOUR

Nothing heard from RED, so at the moment it can only be interpreted as mutterings from yet another heckler. Sad people.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

i know for a FACT thats complete BS but im not allowed to say how i know... just trust me

[Mark Thorpe]

I request that you ask your friend to post directly to this board, or tell him / her to shut the F... Up. Ask him to share his source of information with the thousands of industry related people and RED Team who frequent this board. If he / she can't do that then they have no credibility to the comments they make.

Unless he / she is a duly appointed RED rep then all I can think of is that he / she is just another cog in the rumour mill which continually looks for ways to attack RED's developments and the efforts of Jim and Co.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Tonaci Tran]

Whats up with these people who want to see RED fail? Oh well.. this won't be the last of the false rumors.

[Greg M]

I request that you ask your friend to post directly to this board, or tell him / her to shut the F... Up.

Just to clairify...he is not spreading the story, he heard it on a shoot and asked me if I knew anything.

[Rick Darge]

They want to see it fail because they know that once the RED is released, everyone will have the same access - They will no longer be the amongst the privileged that currently shoot on 35 or other high end HD systems... They will be assimilated with folks like us

Viva La Revolution !

[Zakaree Sandberg]

They want to see it fail because they know that once the RED is released, everyone will have the same access - They will no longer be the amongst the privileged that currently shoot on 35 or other high end HD systems... They will be assimilated with folks like us

Viva La Revolution !

because the high end DP's will be threatened as far as jobs go..
Now young talent with access to a high quality camera will be able to show up and produce some amazing images.. im not saying any shmoe with 17,5 will be able to make the next big film.. but it opens up the game for talented people to come in and blow the old foggies out of the water.. or at least push them to the side a lil

[Roberto B]

exactly..

[Petr Dvorak]

rumours are waste of time
facts are important

[Finner]

I request that you ask your friend to post directly to this board, or tell him / her to shut the F... Up.

Cheers,
Mark.

I don't understand why people are filled with so much fear and lash out like this when someone questions the RED camera. Fear like this is usually bred from feelings of insecurity on the topic.

Give me a break. The guys friend heard the rumour contacted him and told him that he had heard this rumour and that he may want to check it out. Myself or anyone else here would contact their friends if they had heard a rumour that may effect that friend.

People are going to say stuff. Big deal. In the end us with reservations will just get the jump on those that sit on the fence, buy into rumours or start the rumours.

There is no use lashing out at these people instead we can just shut them up when we all start to produce great results with our cameras. Meanwhile they will be stuck having to sign up to a long waiting list if they want one.

[Jannard]

Tell your friend he has bad information... and you heard it from me.

Jim

[Billy Summers]

Dream on, haters, dream on...

[donatello b]

i don't think hi end DP's are not threaten by any camera - it's not the camera that got them up the pay scale ... the more DP's that are good/excellent the better we all become at our craft ...

IMO it the persons near the low end that are uneasy ...

[Finner]

They want to see it fail because they know that once the RED is released, everyone will have the same access - They will no longer be the amongst the privileged that currently shoot on 35 or other high end HD systems... They will be assimilated with folks like us

Viva La Revolution !


I have heard this argument from a few people and I don't really buy it. For some older established DP's the thought of digital scares them but more because the don't know it and really just want to stick to film. For them as digital moves to the forefront they will just phase out and retire. As for a lot of the good established older DP's they can shoot on anything they want. If anyone thinks they will be able to jump ahead of a feature film level DP just because you own a RED and have shot a short you are dead wrong. Any big DP will be able to rent a RED for their movie as soon as it starts to come out. They will also have huge crews and any lighting gear they want. I highly doubt a DP with 25 years or more of experience is scared of this camera.

Now why I think these rumours start:

1 word- EGO

This bussiness is filled with some of the biggest EGO's anywhere. DOP's tend to think they know everything about cameras and thus can judge everything camera related. If a DOP respects another DOP and hears him say RED can't be done he buy's it. EGO's will make people believe and say a lot of things that just are not true.

My thoughts

[Mark Thorpe]

I don't understand why people are filled with so much fear and lash out like this

Hey Finner,
I am neither filled with fear nor am I lashing out. I make an invitation for people starting rumours to post directly here and share their info sources with all of us. If they can't do that then they should stay quiet, period. Why start ripples of negativity in an area populated with positive people?

[Vincent Rice]

This bussiness is filled with some of the biggest EGO's anywhere.



Wow, you don't say...:o

[Finner]

Hey Finner,
I am neither filled with fear nor am I lashing out. I make an invitation for people starting rumours to post directly here and share their info sources with all of us. If they can't do that then they should stay quiet, period. Why start ripples of negativity in an area populated with positive people?

Because people are going to feel real comfortable posting rumours they hear and share there info sources when the members here come back with kind words like "shut the F... up".

[Mark Thorpe]

My initial response was figuratively speaking to the third person, it was not a direct instruction or sentiment aimed toward digitalfx, the thread starter. If someone posts their information with a clearly laid out path leading to their information source then we would all benefit from their posting. If they cannot do that then why bother to post? That will only serve to create a negative thread.

Cheers,
Mark.
P.S http://205.234.134.160/forum/showthread.php?t=76&page=2 post #15. Maybe people who are ridiculed publicly will also be made to feel uncomfortable!

[Steve Sherrick]

I think some of the confusion is coming from misinformation. We have the good fortune of being very much in the loop, thanks to Jim and his team. But if you're not on these forums you may hear a lot of information 3rd hand and you know what happens when that's the case. I overheard a colleague explaining to a freelancer a few weeks back that the camera was vaporware and I went in and corrected him. But that's how this stuff gets started. The only way I would believe this project is dead is if Jim comes on and says they can't do it, which probably ain't gonna happen. But if it isn't coming from his mouth, or any of the other Red team, then no alarms need to be raised.

Steve

[squinonescolon]

I have heard this argument from a few people and I don't really buy it. For some older established DP's the thought of digital scares them but more because the don't know it and really just want to stick to film. For them as digital moves to the forefront they will just phase out and retire. As for a lot of the good established older DP's they can shoot on anything they want. If anyone thinks they will be able to jump ahead of a feature film level DP just because you own a RED and have shot a short you are dead wrong. Any big DP will be able to rent a RED for their movie as soon as it starts to come out. They will also have huge crews and any lighting gear they want. I highly doubt a DP with 25 years or more of experience is scared of this camera.


You couldn't be more correct. Another point: Hollywood is a dichotomy( and I mean big time Hollywood here), it's both the greatest meritocracy and the biggest old-boy club, rolled into one. The only thing that will get you closer the front of the line than having the right last name (or the right "buddy", or the right agent, or the right "pal" in the union), is the right gross in the box office. And it's difficult to get one without the other. You try to figure that one out. No camera in the realm will get you either, but if I have to pick one, I'd choose the latter. The only shortcut for ousiders --if you're a DP-- is hooking up with a bright young director, or two, and help them along as much as you can, then hope and pray that indeed all good deeds bear fruit.
Therefore, besides being talented and knowledgeable, new P.D. DP's (read, "post-digital") should be very forward looking. And be able to spot talent just as readily as an agent would. My guess is that people are already thinking along those terms. And the long-held system of comming up through the ranks will be attacked, and B.D. DP's will surely be heard to lament about how different, and better was in the old days. They will surely be right about some things , and wrong about others. I'm thinking some knowledge will simply dissappear --and that will be a shame, but then again those might be the very same things that are not needed or relevant anymore.
As the old bard said, "All's well that ends well".
Best regards,
Steven Quinones-Colon

[Greg M]

Tell your friend he has bad information... and you heard it from me.

Jim

Thanks Jim, but I already told him it was bs.

[Emanuel A.]

Tell your friend he has bad information... and you heard it from me.

JimThat is what really matters.

[Jeremy Hughes]

After you told him, what did he say? Did he get mad?

Like my signature says...

[Roberto B]

I'm thinking some knowledge will simply dissappear --and that will be a shame, but then again those might be the very same things that are not needed or relevant anymore.

steven QC.. you said all.. the second part of your statement answers why the first one isn't a shame at all.. and why these non-disguise guys are effective in disguise here.. or maybe in half-disguise.. the other half is transferring to digital.. eheheh..

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/mittelgrosse/medium-smiley-052.gif

[Greg M]

After you told him, what did he say? Did he get mad?

Like my signature says...

No he did not get mad. He called me because he knew I ordered one. He shoots national spots. Last December he was shooting a campaign for me, and I showed him the Red site and told him about the camera. He was very interested and even considered placing a pre-order.

[Jason Francois]

Tell your friend he has bad information... and you heard it from me.

Jim

Uh, who are you and why would we trust that you know? ;)

[Brook Willard]

So I hear Apple is going out of business too...

[Jason Francois]

So I hear Apple is going out of business too...


yeah, all because of this thing called the iphone.

[Cire]

Is the company based out of Lake Forrest, CA?

[Brook Willard]

Yes [Lake Forest].

[Jared VanLeuven]

So I hear Apple is going out of business too...

Ha Brook, I haven't heard an Apple's Dying rumor in a while! :) Ah, the nostalgia...

[Brook Willard]

Ha Brook, I haven't heard an Apple's Dying rumor in a while! :) Ah, the nostalgia...

May 5th seems to be the most recent. (http://www.macobserver.com/appledeathknell/index.shtml) That's obviously a topic for another discussion... though the parallels are undeniable.

[Roberto B]

They want to see it fail because they know that once the RED is released, everyone will have the same access - They will no longer be the amongst the privileged that currently shoot on 35 or other high end HD systems... They will be assimilated with folks like us

Viva La Revolution !

if even the respected david mullen is saying: "my biggest bit of skepticism regarding the RED camera is still the price point".. logical point.. he gave more than $100,000 for the f900.. eheheh..

[Stephen Williams]

because the high end DP's will be threatened as far as jobs go..
Now young talent with access to a high quality camera will be able to show up and produce some amazing images.. im not saying any shmoe with 17,5 will be able to make the next big film.. but it opens up the game for talented people to come in and blow the old foggies out of the water.. or at least push them to the side a lil

Hi,

I don't think any high end DP's feel in any way threatened by a camera, why should they as they know how to light.

Stephen

[Stephen Webb]

I don't think any high end DP's feel in any way threatened by a camera, why should they as they know how to light.

Most likely they'll go "ooh, a new camera", play around with it for a bit, learn how to use it ten times better than the "young talent" and then carry on taking all the big jobs and earning all the big cash.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Most likely they'll go "ooh, a new camera", play around with it for a bit, learn how to use it ten times better than the "young talent" and then carry on taking all the big jobs and earning all the big cash.

my point was there are some young talent who are better than the old vets... they have just never had a chance to show themselves.. and with the advent of some inexpensive gear they have a chance to finally make something of value

[Ben Feuer]

@Zakaree - A high-end camera doth not a good DP make. Bad directors are ignorant of this distinction and treat DPs like a low-cost rental house. Beware these men. A good director will still demand evidence of a good eye, an ability to frame, carefully designed lighting (this is huge) and these days, a thorough knowledge of post-production and its needs. If you already have these things, spend your 17.5k on a huge-ass party and convince famous directors to come, then pay them 1k apiece to look at your reel. Audacious bastards do well in HW if they have talent. At least for a while.

@Others - I have also heard nonsensical RED rumors on shoots. A so-called good friend of Ted Schilowitz claimed he had it on the highest authority that RED would be delayed until mid-2008. I just smiled and nodded.

[Michael Schrengohst]

my point was there are some young talent who are better than the old vets... they have just never had a chance to show themselves.. and with the advent of some inexpensive gear they have a chance to finally make something of value

Ahhh yes....talent, good equipment....you gotta have that.....
experience gained from many years of dealing with people is
what many of the younger shooters lack.
That's why us old farts still get hired....

[Jeremy Hughes]

digitalfx, did you ask him where he heard the rumor from?

[Clayton Harper]

My scientology buddies told me that Jim's thetons are really low and he's probably an alien. The only way they could make this camera in a year is with extraterrestrial technology.

[Emanuel A.]

my point was there are some young talent who are better than the old vets... they have just never had a chance to show themselves.. and with the advent of some inexpensive gear they have a chance to finally make something of valueWhether or whether not, confirmed or denied, some power will definitely change hands indeed.

EDIT -- Lordnumberzero, deal closed.

[Stephen Williams]

my point was there are some young talent who are better than the old vets... they have just never had a chance to show themselves.. and with the advent of some inexpensive gear they have a chance to finally make something of value

Hi,

Whats wrong with DV, HDV cameras etc?
If they could light it would be obvious and they would get noticed.

FWIW since we have cheap DSLR's I have not noticed a trend of better photography.

Stephen

[Teague Kennedy]

I do mostly editing. Many professional editors became a bit worried with hundreds of kids w/ final cut pro willing to work cheaper, but it didn't hurt them much at all. What it ammounts to is if you are paying alot of money for good work to be done, you hire an experienced person. A talented newbie with final cut or Red will never replace a talented AND experienced person in the professional world until he works long enough to be trusted with big bucks.

But that said, those talented newbies can produce some really good independent stuff now if they want to.

[Gordon Prince]

Hi,

Whats wrong with DV, HDV cameras etc?
If they could light it would be obvious and they would get noticed.

FWIW since we have cheap DSLR's I have not noticed a trend of better photography.

Stephen

But you've seen some young people shooting and shooting, working and living from there. Same people wouldn't get afford the same outcome before, from a 35 mm basis.

What do we want? Better tools. Higher resolution, latitude, 35 mm DOF... With the video flexibility.

Don't compare apples with oranges. Photography and Moviemaking ain't the same thing. Besides, you'll lose all those fancies we're looking for now: higher performance from bigger sized sensors and suitable optics to get those results above mentioned.

[Emanuel A.]

I do mostly editing. Many professional editors became a bit worried with hundreds of kids w/ final cut pro willing to work cheaper, but it didn't hurt them much at all. What it ammounts to is if you are paying alot of money for good work to be done, you hire an experienced person. A talented newbie with final cut or Red will never replace a talented AND experienced person in the professional world until he works long enough to be trusted with big bucks.

But that said, those talented newbies can produce some really good independent stuff now if they want to.I agree with both parts of your perspective. But..

EDIT -- But..I can tell you: there are severe damages where I've been working. A lot of editors are losing their own job. I'm speaking for self experience.

[Stephen Williams]

But you've seen some young people shooting and shooting, working and living from there. Same people wouldn't get afford the same outcome before, from a 35 mm basis.

What do we want? Better tools. Higher resolution, latitude, 35 mm DOF... With the video flexibility.

Don't compare apples with oranges. Photography and Moviemaking ain't the same thing. Besides, you'll lose all those fancies we're looking for now: higher performance from bigger sized sensors and suitable optics to get those results above mentioned.

Hi,

Many 35mm films have been made with deep DOF, sorry I don't get the theory that the tools make the results.

Stephen

[Mardi_Gras]

Kill this thread please. Jim himself has posted a reply... only a rumor, not true. Pls kill it.

[Greg M]

Our work is a craft, always has been, always will be. Just because you own the tools does not mean you should be an editor or Director of Photography, etc.
The craft is always first, tools are secondary...yes the tools can make our jobs much easier, but if you dont have the talent to shoot or edit you will never survive longterm.

If an editor is losing his job, its not because some young buck took it, it is more likely he does not have the talent to succeed in this industry.

I can tell you that I have two editor positions available, and if someone with the right talent walked in my door today they would have a great job offered them. The fact is there are more jobs than talent in the current market.

[Roberto B]

Hi,

Many 35mm films have been made with deep DOF, sorry I don't get the theory that the tools make the results.

Stephen

don't be perverted stephen.. there's no deep DOF against shallow DOF deal.. maybe just interlaced against progressive look feel.. lower res pictures against big screen chances.. that's your fear.. the word big..

big everything.. pictures.. chances.. careerssssssssssssssssssssss.. power.. gross..

because where's big there is the smaller too.. there's your fear.. to be smaller.. eheheh..

[Stephen Williams]

don't be perverted stephen.. there's no deep DOF against shallow DOF deal.. maybe just interlaced against progressive look feel.. lower res pictures against big screen chances.. that's your fear.. the word big..

big everything.. pictures.. chances.. careerssssssssssssssssssssss.. power.. gross..

because where's big is the smaller too.. there's your fear.. to be smaller.. eheheh..

Hi,

I think you overcomplicate what makes great cinematography, I think it can be summed up in 1 word, 'Lighting'

Stephen

[Greg M]

Kill this thread please. Jim himself has posted a reply... only a rumor, not true. Pls kill it.

I started this thread knowing full well it was a bogus rumor...I simply wanted to let everyone what I HEARD.
It was never meant to ask..."is this true?"

[Greg M]

Hi,

I think you overcomplicate what makes great cinematography, I think it can be summed up in 1 word, 'Lighting'

Stephen

dont forget composition.

[Roberto B]

Hi,

I think you overcomplicate what makes great cinematography, I think it can be summed up in 1 word, 'Lighting'

Stephen

you amuses me.. filmmaking in just one word??.. ok lighting and is that all?

:confused:

eheheheh..

eheheheh..

[Roberto B]

dont forget composition.

no..

forget it!.. forget all! :p

[Gordon Prince]

Hi,

Many 35mm films have been made with deep DOF, sorry I don't get the theory that the tools make the results.

Stephen

I'm afraid you 35 mm guys are forgetting we are also 35 mm people... Just not working in your field yet.

But maybe with a sort of solid background behind your own. Where any try to discuss this kind of common sense sounds an useless time loss.

[Martin Ludwig]

Hi,

I think you overcomplicate what makes great cinematography, I think it can be summed up in 1 word, 'Lighting'

Stephen.

but there are also wonderfull films without any lighting...

[Roberto B]

I'm afraid you 35 mm guys are forgetting we are also 35 mm people... Just not working in your field yet.

me likes that yet.. ehheheh..

[Gordon Prince]

Stephen, it seems ludmux is also a 35 mm guy, cinematography board member. But not DP.


.

but there are also wonderfull films without any lighting...

Filmmaker is right. Filmmaking is beyond your craft. With the digital cinema, your predominance's power shall lose some room succeeding some changes concerning the general hierarchy. In the independent production, it won't be more need to pay the same high prices to the DPs. Simply because they won't have the same control over our work. Your craft will have less predominance on our budgets.

[Stephen Williams]

you amuses me.. filmmaking in just one word??.. ok lighting and is that all?

:confused:

eheheheh..

eheheheh..

Hi,

If you reread my post I said 'Great Cinematography' not filmmaking.

Stephen

[Stephen Williams]

.

but there are also wonderfull films without any lighting...

Hi,

But is the cinematography great or a good script well acted & directed?

Stephen

[Stephen Williams]

In the independent production, it won't be more need to pay the same high prices to the DPs.

Hi,

I never realised inde films paid their DP's high fees.

Stephen

[Roberto B]

you're cool and polite..

just kidding often..

but it's true we work in opposite sides of this stuff.. for you, the cinematography is everything.. for us, only a small part of our movies.. film stock can be our jobless..

and sometimes the lighting setup is boring like ugly actress candidates.. no casting.. eheheh..

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Hi,

I never realised inde films paid their DP's high fees.

Stephen

Indie as in independent. Doesn't have to mean cheap. Although it does often work out that way.

[donatello b]

i think many confuse INDIE with no budget ...

what amount is considered hi DP fee's ?
1000wk , 2000wk, 3000wk, 5000wk, 10,000wk, 15,000wk, 20,000wk ?

[Steve Gibby]

because the high end DP's will be threatened as far as jobs go..
Now young talent with access to a high quality camera will be able to show up and produce some amazing images.. im not saying any shmoe with 17,5 will be able to make the next big film.. but it opens up the game for talented people to come in and blow the old foggies out of the water.. or at least push them to the side a lil
Although I share your stoke for the emergence of RED One, and feel that it’s capability and affordability will significantly change the dynamic of the motion media marketplace, I also feel that a significant portion of what you term “old foggies” will quickly learn to use RED One, through purchase or rental. If “young talent” with limited experience/credits (and few industry contacts) and RED technology is pitted against old talent with deep experience/credits (and broad industry contacts) and RED technology in competition for the same projects, most producers will go for the experienced pro over an inexperienced, but eager new guy – even if they have to pay a bit more. As a “young talent”, go onto the set with an over-confident attitude about your talent and equipment, and display that attitude to the gray-haired “old foggies” who are the producers, directors, and DPs, and you usually won’t last long on their set.

Give respect…and earn respect. The motion media industry is one of the few industries where age and achievement still command respect. In the tech industries young talent essentially rules the roost, except for the older management (CEO, CFO, COO, etc.). The film and television industries are rapidly assimilating technology, but the management of most larger companies, networks, and studios is still dominated by men and women who have some gray hair. They look for “young talent” to add to their workforce, or for contact work, but they require them to respect the veterans who have proved themselves in the motion media industry by years of success.

I’ve been an “indie” for my entire career as a producer, director, editor, and cinematographer, so I definitely understand the indie attitude. But even as an indie, I’ve had to show respect to the older men and women who are the “gatekeepers” (so to speak) at the networks and companies that I wanted to do contract work for, or wanted to air or distribute my indie projects and series.

I think RED One is a serious tool that will be taken seriously in the industry. I also think RED One can be a tool that unifies the converging television and film industries if everyone, no matter how young or old, experienced or in-experienced, sets aside their egos and prejudices, and works together for the advancement of motion media production.

When all is said and done, we’re all interested in a common goal…to get the best images we possibly can within the limitations of our project budgets.

True, there are some crusty old DPs and cinematographers who, for whatever reasons will take awhile to warm up to RED One, but let’s not make the stereotype that all older experienced people are tech-challenged and narrow-minded. I’m 58 years, a highly experienced producer, director, editor, DP, and cinematographer, and yet I jumped on the RED bandwagon at the very start, I’m a full-on techie, and I go out of my way to mentor “young talent”. My attitude: the more you learn, the more you should realize you don’t know. I learn a lot from others (no matter what their age), and hopefully they learn from me.

There are three types of people in the world, and also specifically in the motion media industry: 1) those that make things happen 2) those that watch things happen 3) those that wonder what just happened. The RED staff and most of those who reserved RED One cameras are Type 1. The rest of the industry has many Type 1 (but who, for a variety of reasons won’t make a move on RED One), but also a ton of Type 2 and Type 3. Risk and return are inseparably connected. First movers (Type 1) stand to lose a lot, but also stand to gain a lot. Type2 and Type 3 can easily find themselves behind the power curve – in a sink or swim environment. That’s not to say that those who don’t adopt RED One will sink, but merely that there is a chance they will fall behind their competition if they aren’t on top of emerging equipment of their trade.

As for the REDhaters and rumormongers…they’re water off a duck’s back to me. No matter what we decide to do, there will always be somebody there to tell us we’re wrong. If we believe in ourselves and trust our instincts, it doesn’t matter what the naysayers chatter about.

No worries, Zakaree. I’m not singling you out for what I posted, but rather giving this entire forum something to think about, through the eyes of an experienced veteran of this industry. Let’s all spend a lot less time judging each other and the naysayers…and a lot more time networking and exchanging constructive ideas about RED One.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Why would a cheaper camera bring down the weekly rate of a DP? I thought you payed the DP for their services as an artist not a CCD. Besides I'm sure Indie DPs are still getting payed peanuts. Let's say you have 5 - 12 hour days (an easily attainable goal on a production) that's 60 hours (20 overtime) @ let's give them a very modest $40 an hour. That's still $2800 a week. But DPs aren't on a production every week. Usually far from it, so you have to factor in the 'contract worker' tax as well to keep them alive in between projects. So now you have a camera which only costs let's say $1500 a week to rent.... so what do you do with the money? I would hope it would go into the talent making the confounded contraption work in the first place. The poor underpaid DP who is getting payed peanuts. Therefore, I feel like the conclusion that a cheaper camera will bring down DP rates is backwards. If anything it should drive them up as production money can finally go to the crew of indie films who really deserve more than they're getting (which is often nothing or close to it).

In all of the collaborative arts it comes down to your name. Is it well known? Is it known for quality? Do people like working with you? Are you honest, quick, intelligent and a contribution of the project. If the answer is Yes to all of these then you get the wonderful currency of referencing. You get to share your name with your friends. If they turn out to be bad news then you also suffer the consequences and your name can go down with it. If they succeed, they gain currency of their own. No camera will change this system.

And why care about RED Rumors? Will it stop you from getting a camera? I don't care if the Encyclopedia Britannica has an entry for RED that reads as: "A camera system which never ended up getting released" if I have one in my possession that works. Sometimes I get the distinct impression that people are putting a lot of completely camera unrelated hopes and dreams into the RED project, which have little to no chance of success, regardless of the mysterium's quality.

[Gordon Prince]

Shooting film has some requirements. Are you saying the dailies are likely digital footage going to the field display?

[donatello b]

IMO the more persons with camera's that work the low end budgets will affect rates ....
somebody ( especially if there are Allot of somebody's) with little/no experience that owns a camera ( and that could be ANY camera) can drive down DP rates on the lower end budgets ... it's been this way since i've been in the game ... this is where you trade getting experience for no/little pay.

persons spends $$ on camera .. persons wants experience - they either throw in camera for FREE or they charge for camera and take no/little pay.

Producer ( with little experience) has little $$ , RED camera for free or DP for almost free is something to think about ... YES we all know it's the lighting & experience but if you can't really afford the lighting or experience person in 1st place then would you prefer to shoot 4k RED or SD hand size camera ? ..

[garydxd]

"They want to see it fail because they know that once the RED is released, everyone will have the same access - They will no longer be the amongst the privileged that currently shoot on 35 or other high end HD systems... They will be assimilated with folks like us"

I remember when the Video Toaster came out. People did everything to put it down. Granted, it wasn't the highest end piece of gear, but it did start a revolution and gave the average person a way to make "Broadcast" video. They didn't like that.

[Billy Summers]

.

but there are also wonderfull films without any lighting...

LIKE WHAT?!?

[Stephen Webb]

I'm fairly certain all films have lighting :)

[Sanjin Jukic]

No light no film. Blackout. Dark. In the most films/video "blackout" exists only like a short effect, at the beginning often combined with or without titles, to show a dark space, a night, etc...

[Emanuel A.]

What Jan meant is: there are wonderful movies where the lighting is no more a key link. Radical example is «Tarnation» [LINK (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0390538/)]. But there are other examples since the motto given for the Nouvelle Vague unmotivated lighting concept or more recently the Dogma95 method -- where the available light is the only source 'allowed' (!).

RED ONE can be an excellent tool for this cinema genre. Nor all movie productions follow the mainstream cinematography or related to.

[Sanjin Jukic]

What Jan meant is: there are wonderful movies where the lighting is no more a key link. Radical example is «Tarnation» [LINK (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0390538/)]. But there are other examples since the motto given for the Nouvelle Vague unmotivated lighting concept or more recently the Dogma95 method -- where the available light is the only source 'allowed' (!).

RED ONE can be an excellent tool for this cinema genre. Nor all movie productions follow the mainstream cinematography or related to.

Emanuel Dogme95 is over, now Lars von Triers has Cinealta with all the gears for audio and lighting in the last two-three films. As I quote Heraclitus of Ephesus in my signature below "All things are in motion and nothing remains still." Lars is no more poor guy, now he's got rich and powerful. I am pretty sure that Lars & co. holding a couple or even more the RED ONE reservations. Have a look Lars and his gears below, he is totally digital guy...

http://www.sanjinjukic.com/extras/LarsVT.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0240806638/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-8305323-8465753#reader-link

[Emanuel A.]

Lars is no more poor guy, now he's got rich and powerful. I am pretty sure that Lars & co. holding a couple or even more the RED ONE reservations.

Sanjin,

I had a personal contact with Lars von Trier (since 1992-1994) and I can assure you he wasn't then a poor guy at all! :D Zentropa was then the first danish production company and Peter Aalbæk Jensen (his partner in Zentropa) the major producer there (I mean Denmark surely not just Zentropa). Do you know Europa* (1991), by chance?

(Sanjin, if you call it poor cinema...what can you call us over these same boards? http://clicksmilies.com/s1106/travesmilies/smilie_aengstl1.gif)
I'm afraid Dogme 95 brought a lot of confusion among the community who didn't know his work before.

But Lars Trier (von Trier when he decided to be a famous director http://clicksmilies.com/s1106/sport/sport-smiley-009.gif back to 80s if not 70s) is a 35mm director before his incursion in DV and Cinealta (since Dogville) -- here is a great director for the RED marketing program (Jim, if you read this, feel free to contact me if you wish 'cause I'm sure there would be a good chance for a next LVT's movie shot with a RED ONE -- it would be a great marketing choice! And if Zentropa won't be a RED ONE reservations holder, as well, for my both #111 and #647...I wouldn't mind at all! http://clicksmilies.com/s1106/cool/cool-smiley-002.gif) PS -- Thus, I would change the thread's title for "Rumor started in REDuser" but 'cause I hate rumors and after all this would might be a fresh rumor, I'd suggest "Idea started in..."

[Emanuel A.]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101829/

* My favorite movie ever (among many others of course! -- but this one? Well, this one...) [Special Prize of the Jury at the Cannes Festival, 1991 LINK (http://www.imdb.com/Sections/Awards/Cannes_Film_Festival/1991)]. As you see, this have not (any) connection with the Dogme 95 free(?)-style and he already was a successful filmmaker, including Cannes awarded even before that night when his smoking had been offered by Henning Bendtsen, Carl Dreyer's Ordet DP as being the same smoking offered to Bendtsen by the greatest danish master of all time!
[so...maybe (t)here's your poor's man quote http://clicksmilies.com/s1106/lachen/laughing-smiley-012.gif)]

[Sanjin Jukic]

Emanuel,

I like Lars and his movies and I was a bit studing Dogme 95 manifesto years ago...etc...my favourite of Lars movies is not one of his "big" movies but it is very Lars >> Fem benspænd, De (2003) in English "The five obstructions" >> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0354575/

also I like a lot of Danish stuff like Jacobsen furniture (have some), Bung & Olufsen (have some), like Karlsberg beer, like a lot Danish girls (had some)and more...

[Emanuel A.]

Well, on the danish girls, I won't comment at all, as well... :D But if you don't know Europa (first aka Zentropa in US, I believe), I shall recommend to you and to everyone here.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Emanuel, of course that I know Europa and I did here my choice too. Sorry...

[Zack Birlew]

If any camera was killed off in production it was, sadly, the massively superior BLUE camera. :(






(for people that don't know, this is a reference to an old inside joke from way back when around the time the RED was announced)

[Emanuel A.]

Sanjin,

Paying attention to your nice pic, you shall still check out the Dogme rules there (but of course, Dogme's 'vow of chastity' was the pretext and there is a whole movement beyond that where RED can rule -- that is, if the cine-style guys don't kill our hype):

http://www.sanjinjukic.com/extras/LarsVT.jpg

rule #4
«Special lighting is not acceptable. (If there is too little light for exposure the scene must be cut or a single lamp be attached to the camera).»

For those who don't believe in directors operating cameras, your pic rocks... http://clicksmilies.com/s1106/aktion/action-smiley-033.gif

[Andrew Benz]

also I like a lot of Danish stuff like Jacobsen furniture (have some), Bung & Olufsen (have some), like Karlsberg beer, like a lot Danish girls (had some)and more...
Hi Sanjin,

Although I enjoy you posts and also enjoy the Danish aesthetique, I am a little scared of Bung & Olufsen.:p Could this be the Danes answer to swedish erotica?;)

[Charles Papert]

I can certainly understand why so many filmmakers on the "outside" like the image of crusty old established DP's falling by the wayside simply because a full-size sensor camera is made available at an affordable price. But it simply won't happen. Nearly all DP's have worked with digital at this point, and more than a few have embraced it and are perfectly comfortable with it, and they will continue to make images that are excellent.

By the same token, the folks who have learned how to make beautiful pictures with their 1/3" format cameras will now have an opportunity to do so with more serious optics. Yes, the pictures will look that much better, but this doesn't mean that they will know any more how to handle every other aspect of shooting features, some of which (lighting, composition) have been touched on here but others (personnel management, politics etc) are a world apart.

No long-established DP is "scared" of digital acquisition, except for the possibility of losing control of the image by having the post manipulation taken out of their hands (which can happen on a film-originated project that goes through a DI also). The camera is simply one piece of the puzzle. I've had plenty of conversations about RED with very highly regarded DP's--won't name names but we are talking about a few legends here--who are interested and supportive. The nature of cinematography is evolution--cameras evolve, film stocks have evolved, lighting gear evolves, so why would anyone be threatened, except if they happen to own a digital camera that they haven't paid off yet (and that's a reasonable concern!!).

[Sanjin Jukic]

Emanuel,

I do not like the rules or any sort of dogmas. I am strongly for freedom of expression in the movie images. Simultaneously I respect Dogme 95 or any other movie manifesto before and after. All it is about a vision. An the visions are many and different.

There are some of the options like the following list below but there are also much more of them.

- If your current project or a movie vision request purity or some kind of "Less is More" minimalism like aesthetic than you could follow those rules to achieve a goal of your project concept.

-If your current project or a movie vision request trash and dirty style follow the certain rules to help you to get and achieve this kind of conceptual aesthetic.

-If your current project vision request mix of everything that follow the rules to find and achieve all that different aesthetics to get your movie finished.

...

[Sanjin Jukic]

And we are to far from the tread topic with this kind of discussion about the dogme95, film aestetic, red,... etc...

I will finished with a joke and said:

"Rumor Has It..."

http://rumorhasitmovie.warnerbros.com/_images/g_home_cast.jpg
User Comments: A film that proves rumors are bad, really bad...
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0398375/

[Emanuel A.]

Sanjin,

Understood. I don't like dogmas nor rules, anyway. Nevertheless, this isn't the point. Just a movement to break the rules... :D Or if you wish, proclaiming this need. LVT is the anti-form filmmaker (perfect) example and at the same time the best one doing what he knows to get: a formal cinema without other competitors.

EDIT -- Like RED :D:http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/2443/smiliegeneratortestgrup0lq.png (http://imageshack.us)

Emanuel


Emanuel,

I do not like the rules or any sort of dogmas. I am strongly for freedom of expression in the movie images. Simultaneously I respect Dogme 95 or any other movie manifesto before and after. All it is about a vision. An the visions are many and different.

There are some of the options like the following list below but there are also much more of them.

- If your current project or a movie vision request purity or some kind of "Less is More" minimalism like aesthetic than you could follow those rules to achieve a goal of your project concept.

-If your current project or a movie vision request trash and dirty style follow the certain rules to help you to get and achieve this kind of conceptual aesthetic.

-If your current project vision request mix of everything that follow the rules to find and achieve all that different aesthetics to get your movie finished.

...

[Sanjin Jukic]

Emanuel,

please open a brand new tread in the section "Off Topic" and we can slowly continue because anyway it is not going so much NEWS about the RED ONE development right now. They are in a creative silence that is behind the curtain. Let them work. No rumors any more.

[Sanjin Jukic]

scratch scratch scratch

[Blair S. Paulsen]

To Charles - thanks for bringing your wisdom to this forum.

Assuming that Charles is spot on I see my ownership of, and, more importantly the deep understanding of the workings of the RedOne I am committed to developing once I have it in hand, as a way to get into the mix. I would love to find an experienced DP who would like to work with the camera and would allow me join up as primarily the data management dude who knows every menu and control like the back of his hand. I am there to provide peace of mind by paying attention to every detail of cloning and verifying the data before the magazines get recycled. This DIT job may pay $400/day or less, but I would expect to get workbox rental income from the camera and the support van full of computers, hard drives, monitors, etc that I will use to make the copies and verify the image quality on or near the set. This could also serve as video village.

After doing a few shows in this DIT type role I would start looking to book myself out to indie producers as a DoP with a RedOne and support van. I have already spent many years creating motion media (I have even been a DoP on a micro-budget feature, still haven't been paid :mad: ) and if I pick the right DoP for my DIT experience, and really pay attention to what they are doing both technically and all the non-technical stuff Charles refers to in terms of personnel, politics, etc - then I might be able to use the camera as leverage to get more interesting assignments than the corporate stuff that has been paying the bills but boring me more each year.

Any camera leverage strategy will only work for me (or just about anyone lacking the old buddy connection) if I bust my butt, pay some dues and act like a professional. I am also looking beyond just having the camera to being able to add value by providing a more complete workflow solution.

IMHO it is incumbent upon us as part of the vanguard of the digital cinema era to marry great images with a proven IT workflow to safeguard those images. I plan to offer a service that includes 3 copies of every frame shot, at least 2 of which are DCN (digital cinema negative RedCode RAW) files. The no film, no tape story needs an alternative that allows people with their jobs on the line to sleep at night - that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Emanuel A.]

No rumors any more.
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/2876/2ndreservationsdate1kr.png (http://imageshack.us)

[Sanjin Jukic]

Hi Sanjin,

Although I enjoy you posts and also enjoy the Danish aesthetique, I am a little scared of Bung & Olufsen.:p Could this be the Danes answer to swedish erotica?;)

Andrew,
when the RED is finally out let us make a movie about the differences between Danes and Swedish erotica but not a porno, a real sweet movie...it could be about mentality styles...something like between Bergman's psychodrama and Lars's social/global criticism etc...maybe Emanuel will help to get us find rising the production budget...

[Joe Carney]

I almost feel embarrassed, almost....I just want to make really good looking movies, mainly scifi and horror. Or doing historical drama where beautiful British women prance around naked (ie..Rome). No Oscar bait here.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Zeke,
we are already in (LIVE) horror. Just move around and shoot.