BEST IMMEDIATE OPTION FOR HD MOVIE! (*sorry Red*)

[KETCH ROSSi]

Hi guys,

first let me thank every one in this forum as you guys have given me great support on the aftermath of my home invasion shooting incident, now I do much much better and ready to go.

In this post what I ask is to help me put together a complete HD package to shoot an imminent project to be out for Christmas of this year, so time is of essence and I must use at best what it is available now, in advance I thank you all for your responses on this matter of great importance to me.

I will be so very pleased the day that I will pick up my RED's but now I must produce this project so please Help.

This are some guide lines to go by:

I want to try and get a complete set up for no more then $10,000.00.

Most important as I have the XH-A1 camera as this can record direct to FS-C via Firewire, is this in off of good quality for final film out , can this be worked in FCP6 with some kind of programs like Cineform or similar.

Or it is better to use the component out, wich will give better quality image?

Those the HD-SDI port on the XH-G1 gives much more quality the firewire as it is not compressed? And if it is better how much better, in off to spend the double the money on the camera alone?

What is the workflow difference from one to the other, the cost of one and the other including the elements necessary each workflow.

Again I like to get the best image considering the options and cost as well as the workflow it self.

Thanks again in advance.

Ciao,

KETCH ROSSI
www.KETCHFRAME.com

[David Mullen ASC]

Well, theoretically the HD-SDI is sending out uncompressed 4:2:2 1920 x 1080 -- I don't know if it's 8-bit or 10-bit, and I don't know if it's 24P (23.98P) if you are shooting in 24F mode (or if you are in a 50Hz country, 25P if you are shooting 25F). It may be 60i (59.94i)

If these figures I've gotten are right, then 1920 x 1080 / 59.94i / 8-bit / 4:2:2 = 124 MB/sec or 1000 Mb/sec

If 10-bit = 166 MB/sec or 1328 Mb/sec

Anyway, you have to factor in whatever it will cost you to record that much data over the course of the shooting.

Yes, that should look better than compressed 4:2:0 HDV for a film-out but I'm not sure it is practical or not in your particular case.

[Chris Forbes]

How long is your shoot? Is renting an option? For ten grand you can get a nice varicam package with a couple of zooms (wide and tele) plus tape stock for a couple of weeks of principle photography. It really does make a better image.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Have you checked out Cineform? I don't know the pricing, but I know their waffian might be a good 4:2:2 alternative to renting a DVC-Pro Deck.

[David Mullen ASC]

Yes, it seems if you are buying a RED anyway, then in the meanwhile, for a single feature of a limited period of a few weeks shooting, then take your $10,000 and look for a killer deal on a Varicam or F900.

I rented an F900 package for a month for $10,000 from a private owner to shoot a feature in Russia back in 2001.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

We use the XH-A1 too actually, the biggest problem we keep having with HDV in general is that you seem to need to light the heck out of everything to cut down on the noise, at least that has been my experience. We've gotten some beautiful pictures outside with it, then inside when it looked to us like we had enough lighting, on the viewfinder, the footage was less than desirable when we put it into Final Cut. Oh well, that's why we did basically test projects, so we could figure that stuff out.

I think these guys have good advice, I mean you got a RED on order, do you need another camera that isn't going to be that good for less than $10,000, or could you rent something really good instead? Might be worth considering.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I also recommend a Varicam or F900 rental. No reason to buy anything now with those RED reservations you have. I personally haven't used the Canon XH-A1/G1 cameras, so can't comment. But I will agree with JonathanLB about lighting. These 1/3" HD cameras (HDV or DVCPROHD ala the HVX200, HPX500) require you to overlight to cut the noise. But at the same time you have to be careful of overexposure. One thing I've found with the Sony HVR-A1u and HC3 cameras as well as the HVX200, is that even if you light well, you can still get mosquito noise or other noise artifacting in dark areas of an image. Some of it is just how the sensor block and internal processing perceive the black details.

[KETCH ROSSi]

Hey guys, thanks so far for the input.

The XH-A1 it is already in my possession and I'm going to keep this camera for documenting the shoots with the RED cameras.

I know $10,000.00 is not much for a camera set up, but it has to do it, I already have lights, some grip and a few gennies, the issue those come in as David mantioned in post as the workflow will have different rquirements and this is part of what I like to find out.

What is the cost let's say to record HD-SDI uncompressed in 1080i/24F(oh before I forget I'm in California and shoot of the film will take place here and in Italy but in American standard NATSC) and most important is if the Editor can up-convert the HDV from the firewire port, maeby like Gavin suggested using Cineform?

Also I do not like to rent at all, insurance requirement, dead lines? and have to be on some one also schedule, No, I like to buy and sale it when I'm finished.

Also the shoot happens in different times and locations, so makes it harder to rent in a budget.

I like the 900 infact I was looking to buy that camera or the Viper and David give me great inside on this cameras, but then I reserved the RED's, now I do not want to risk and use the $100,000.00 dedicated for the RED's and can not spend more then $50,000.00 for this film(my first) and I know it is very little money but I intend to be very very resorsefull, and this is whay I ask your help to use the money in the best way and get the resolts in recording media as best as this little money can.

The film has to stay in the 90 minutes to keep the budget lower.

So again thanks so far and please continue to give your very valued opinions from your knowlege and experience that I do not posses (YET).

Ciao,

KETCH ROSSI

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Ketch -- that's funny you mention using the XH-A1 for recording what you shoot with the RED, that was exactly our plan! We want to use that as sort of a behind-the-scenes camera, obviously it isn't really worthwhile on a tiny budget shoot to use another RED to record what you're shooting with your primary RED, lol, although we would be able to do that theoretically it's just not worth the editing time and getting all of the footage from that camera into the computer, etc. Better to have a tape-based system where the tapes cost like $2.50 each.

[KETCH ROSSi]

Yes Jonathan, you are correct, the tape quality out of this camera is very nice, I tape some extyriors and put it up on my 12' screen via the Sony HD Pearl, fantastic.

So yes this will be a perfect camera for the purpose, small ease to carry and move in the middle of everything.

Infect as I see more and more the workflow involved to try and use this camera for Cinema release I think I by a HD-SDI out uncompressed capable camera and use the A1 for bhind the scene on this project to.

Ciao,

KETCH ROSSI

[Jeff Kilgroe]

$10K... And you want a good camera package purchased, not a rental.... This is kinda tough. How much gear do you need with the camera? A pre-owned HVX200 w/35mm adapter, mattebox, FF and a few P2 cards might be do-able and would make for a nice setup if you don't mind the P2 workflow restrictions.

The XLH1 comes in right about $10K by the time you buy the camera, case/bag and a couple small goodies to go with it....

Have you looked at the JVC GY-HD2xx cameras? Some people are really liking them.

You might do well to get another Canon A1 since that's what you're familiar with and outfit it with a 35mm adapter and accessories. I would also say that if you plan to shoot over a months time or so and in both the USA and Italy, that $10K is going to hard to work with for rentals too.

If you want to record uncompressed SDI 1080, you're looking at a decent PC/Mac system with an AJA or Decklink card and a RAID system that can handle the recording data rates. Depending on what you have already, it may be as easy as buying the right AJA card or you may need a full system. There's also portable hard disk recorders that have SDI I/O that would work too, but most of these will easily suck up your $10K budget unless you can find a good deal on a used one. This is the sort of thing you rent. And then you have to ask yourself -- can the whole feature be shot while tethered to a recording system or do you and any other camera operators feel like lugging around a disk recorder too.

Personally, for a film with a $50K budget and $10K going to camera gear, I would rent an F900, but if rental didn't work out or wasn't an option, I would probably shoot HDV or P2 DVCPROHD to a cheaper camera. That way I can build a nice camera package and keep it (hopefully) within that budget and it should resell just fine after the production is finished.

[KETCH ROSSi]

After this and the post on DVXuser I had severall very good feed backs and I also base on the suggestions did several searches.

Now comes down to fully understanding the difference as far as the quality in recording HD-SDI uncompressed at 1920/1080 vs. recording component out uncompressed at 1440/1080 vs. recording via firewire to hd DTE recorder at 140/1080 jpg2 compressed hdv.

I also begin to see the need of hardware from system to system, so at the end the fire wire direct to portable DTE is the best as far as workflow and cost.

But I sure like to know is it going to be good in off for film out?

Ciao

KETCH ROSSI

[Kevin Halverson]

The strongest recommendation that I can make for a digitally acquired project that is intended to go film out is very thorough testing is essential long before you select a camera / work-flow. This should include working closely with your film out lab. I would test under conditions as similar to your actual shooting ones as possible.

As for your comment "...recording component out uncompressed...". Component (Y-Pb-Pr) is analog video and therefore the term "uncompressed" is somewhat inapplicable. In the case of many camera's their analog video output is derived from the 1394 stream and is simply a video encoder and line driver; this output suffers from all the issues that the camera's compression scheme imparts as well as the performance issues associated with the conversion from digital to analog and back again. In general, this is not a high performance solution and certainly not one that would be appropriate for a film out project.

[KETCH ROSSi]

Yes the uncompressed component out to pc card capture direct to computer was what a Canon rep. told me, my knolege is limited(getting better, but limited).

I was also not sure of His statement and told Him the same as you mantioned, I think is going to be firewire 1440-1080 the up/rez via Cineform or such.

For the cost and workflow if I see that HD-SDI uncompressed is possible I will do that, now I'm still understanding all the needs for such a set up and the true difference from 4:2:2 via HD-SDI or via Firewire 4:2:0 post via Cineform to 4:2:2

Thanks for your input.

Ciao,

KETCH ROSSI

[P Andersson]

I want to try and get a complete set up for no more then $10,000.00.

Most important as I have the XH-A1 camera as this can record direct to FS-C via Firewire, is this in off of good quality for final film out , can this be worked in FCP6 with some kind of programs like Cineform or similar.

Or it is better to use the component out, wich will give better quality image?



here is a test of the cineform codecs from the hdmi ports on the hv20 http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=94079&page=1

on the HV20 there was discussion about the 1440 HDV resolution drop being included in the HDMI out, but it looks to me as if it is the full 1920 on the NEOHD samples

maybe the Canon A1 through the intensity pro http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/ with the analog component and cineform NEOHD would give you pretty good 1920 by 1080 compressed
if you use the magma box http://www.magma.com/products/pciexpress/expressbox1/index.html a good laptop and external HD it might work for you
the cineform is in beta for mac

it is a little awkward but you wouldn't have to rent or buy a camera, it would leave more money for the RED and or more resources to make the movie

[KETCH ROSSi]

I think the more info you guys give me the more it looks like I will be shooting this project via firewire on to the FS-C 100GB at 1440/1080i at 24F in 4:2:0 then use Cineform to make it a 1920/1080i 24F in 4:2:2 compressed HD.

Thanks for the links.

I will continue to research and yes the Cineform is still beta for Mac platform a 15 day trial is available, I hope some one will elaborate on the workflow specifics of this.

Ciao,

KETCH ROSSI

[Paul Hazlett]

I think you should consider using that 10k to buy or rent the ability to capture
hd sdi from the camera. you can avoid the HDV "gotchas" and get a much more robust image. My other quest would be to find out if the redrock or p+s technik adapters for lenses will work with your camera.

Is this gun and gun fast setups? or do you have the ability to hook up the
camera to a deck that has an hd sdi port? rental of a dvcpro hd deck or
hdcam would be ideal if you can be tied to it.

[Paul Hazlett]

I think the more info you guys give me the more it looks like I will be shooting this project via firewire on to the FS-C 100GB at 1440/1080i at 24F in 4:2:0 then use Cineform to make it a 1920/1080i 24F in 4:2:2 compressed HD.

Ciao,

KETCH ROSSI

honestly, I seriously consider the hd sdi route. I think you will be happier in the end. Just my opinion

[KETCH ROSSi]

Yes there are several steady-cam shoots, and renting is just not a possibility,
and yes the M2 is already in use with the XH-A1 and works great.

The use of HD-SDI is slimming by the post as I see more and more the need for much more hardware and workflow in post beside the one in capture.

Ciao

KETCH ROSSI

[Nik Manning]

I think the more info you guys give me the more it looks like I will be shooting this project via firewire on to the FS-C 100GB at 1440/1080i at 24F in 4:2:0 then use Cineform to make it a 1920/1080i 24F in 4:2:2 compressed HD.



Just making sure you know that this won't be as good as shooting straight to Cineform codec right? It will still be the hdv codec and all the problems but basically in a cineform timeline. You could convert to ProRes if you are editing final cut pro. Or capture to ProRes from a Mac Pro.

Just another option with a proven workflow and amazing quality is a DVX with a Andromeda modification.

What will be your post production requirements? Are you just doing simple color corrections and then applying a look in something like magic bullet? If so sraight hdv should work no problem. You only really need less compression than hdv if you are doing drastic color changes, alot of fast motion, and heavy visual effects.

If this is a story driven movie I would spend that 10k on talent,wardrobe,location, audio sweetening, and post production.

[Tom Lowe]

Is anyone renting out SI-2K or SI-2K minis? That might be a good option.

[PenGun]

The Sony XDCAM EX is gonna make much of the hassle go away. Maybe save your $10,000 and buy it. Some time in Sept it will be out.

Kicks the Canon all around the block. True 24P, Cine Alte, 1/2" CCDs 35Mb/s to the best mpeg2 4:2:0 there is. ExpressCard for storage about $250 for a 16G. Stuff it in yer laptop and throw away the dross.

I dunno I'm saving up for one, be about $8000 with 14x Fujion with real focus and aperture rings. Hard to beat outside of a Red.

[Rocket]

Is anyone renting out SI-2K or SI-2K minis? That might be a good option.

Yeah, we are going to be shooting with the SI-1920 pretty much exclusively until RED time (although I found out in another thread that the camera we will be renting is obsolete now, but will still do a good job). 1920 x 1080, RGB 4:4:4 to Cineform, and then we'll convert to DPX for conform in Scratch. That would be a great workflow for film out.

I was also thinking this camera might be an obvious choice in this scenario.

[KETCH ROSSi]

Just making sure you know that this won't be as good as shooting straight to Cineform codec right? It will still be the hdv codec and all the problems but basically in a cineform timeline. You could convert to ProRes if you are editing final cut pro. Or capture to ProRes from a Mac Pro.

Just another option with a proven workflow and amazing quality is a DVX with a Andromeda modification.

What will be your post production requirements? Are you just doing simple color corrections and then applying a look in something like magic bullet? If so sraight hdv should work no problem. You only really need less compression than hdv if you are doing drastic color changes, alot of fast motion, and heavy visual effects.

If this is a story driven movie I would spend that 10k on talent,wardrobe,location, audio sweetening, and post production.


Yes Nik, I just gut a Macbook pro maximized and installed FCS2 among other programms, and recording to ProRes is the current option, still looking at Cineform workflow with the people from Cineform, at this time mostly tasting, different workflows, recording to tape, out from firewire, via componet out, and we like to try to record some fottage via BNC cable out from video 2, just need to get some more hardware.

First tests using M2 and Zeiss ZF 25, 50 and 85mm are great, just need to work some more on it and projected in to my 12' screen and get a better idea of the quality.

Again the goal is to get the best image to andle better the film out, in the XH-A1 I'm using Cine2 suggested as the mode to record for film out.

Thanks for your suggestions as I will take them in consideration among the tests options for final decision making.

Ciao,

KETCH ROSSI

[KETCH ROSSi]

The Sony XDCAM EX is gonna make much of the hassle go away. Maybe save your $10,000 and buy it. Some time in Sept it will be out.

Kicks the Canon all around the block. True 24P, Cine Alte, 1/2" CCDs 35Mb/s to the best mpeg2 4:2:0 there is. ExpressCard for storage about $250 for a 16G. Stuff it in yer laptop and throw away the dross.

I dunno I'm saving up for one, be about $8000 with 14x Fujion with real focus and aperture rings. Hard to beat outside of a Red.

I was tryng to stay way from 4.2.0 all together, the XH-A1 records HD in 4.2.0 and Analog in 4.2.2, for now I continue to look for ways to get the best out of this camera and wen time comes to start shooting I will ceck the Sony out but it will be likely to late wen it comes out.

It is obvious that been the people that originated the 24p in the world of digital put together with Cinealta and is a no brainer what to expect from that, wil see.

Thanks for heads up on this camera.

Ciao,
KETCH ROSSI

[PenGun]

I was tryng to stay way from 4.2.0 all together, the XH-A1 records HD in 4.2.0 and Analog in 4.2.2, for now I continue to look for ways to get the best out of this camera and wen time comes to start shooting I will ceck the Sony out but it will be likely to late wen it comes out.

It is obvious that been the people that originated the 24p in the world of digital put together with Cinealta and is a no brainer what to expect from that, wil see.

Thanks for heads up on this camera.

Ciao,
KETCH ROSSI

The XDCAM EX also does HD SDI out and I believe Component and HDMI. I have also read that the Sony mpeg2 4:2:0 colourspace is the best in the industry but I have no real evidence this is true.

[Tom Lowe]

Yeah, we are going to be shooting with the SI-1920 pretty much exclusively until RED time....1920 x 1080, RGB 4:4:4 to Cineform

Damn, those are nice specs. I love Cineform's codec. And it can overcrank? What is the sensor size, in terms of which types lenses you can use? Cine 35mm lenses?