Ownership Transfer Costs... boo!

[Mark B.]

I'm not happy with the forced $500 inspection that is currently required before Red will recognize a transfer of ownership for a camera. I don't even recall being told of any such fee until after I'd already purchased the camera, which makes it that much worse.

The issue of whether for-sale equipment should be inspected is something that should be decided between the buyer and seller, not mandated by the manufacturer.

If Red wants to charge a small "change of owner" fee to account for the effort of modifying an ownership database, I'd understand that. But $500 and having to waste time shipping the camera to a Red service center seems excessive.

Also, requiring that any recommended repairs must be purchased before transfer of ownership will be performed... is questionable on several levels.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The transfer fees have been mentioned before on multiple occasions. I think it's in their warranty and purchase policies as well.

Anyone can sell a camera outright and not have to do the $500 inspection and official transfer through RED. But that isn't exactly ideal to not be the owner of record when you need support.

If we were talking about simple ownership transfer, the $500 fee does seem a bit high, but the fee includes a full inspection and tune-up for the camera. What it really comes down to is that RED will not transfer ownership to a new owner without verifying that the camera is in perfect working order and that the warranty hasn't been violated.

In a camera transaction between two parties, it's really up to negotiation about who pays the transfer fees. I think a 50/50 split between buyer and seller would be fair, similar to the typical splitting of closing costs and brokerage fees on a real estate transaction or whatnot. As for any additional costs for repairs needed to the camera, I think that should all fall onto the seller. After all, RED will only transfer ownership to the new owner if the camera is in 100% working order as verified by them. Therefore, anyone buying a RED One should feel comfortable knowing that they are receiving a fully functional camera with the option of buying a 90-day warranty direct from RED.

If you're buying a camera that needs repair, then I suggest talking to whoever sold it to you and have them cough up the expense or give your money back. But that's just me.

[Stuart English]

The issue of whether for-sale equipment should be inspected is something that should be decided between the buyer and seller..

If the new owner desires a warranty from RED, the inspection and fee are part of that (optional) process.

See the official Warranty Terms here :

http://www.red.com/terms/

[Jeff Kilgroe]

That's fine about the new warranty, Stuart. But ownership transfer also seems to require the $500 inspection, regardless of whether the new owner chooses to purchase an optional warranty or not. And ownership transfer is necessary in order to assign the camera's original ship date / serial number to the new owner and to allow the new owner to purchase Epic X or execute other Red One ownership benefits.

[Stephen Williams]

But ownership transfer also seems to require the $500 inspection, regardless of whether the new owner chooses to purchase an optional warranty or not.

Hi Jeff,

Can't think of anything I ever bought new or second hand that has similar terms attached. I think it was done to prevent people profiteering in the early days. Such terms & conditions don't make me a fan boy.

Stephen

[Brent@RED]

Let's clear this up. You are buying a RED ONE from a third party, you have three choices:

1. Send camera to us, we eval for $500. If it needs any repairs to be brought to current factory specs, we quote you for those. You can have them done or not. If you don't want them done, we send you back the camera. If you do, we repair/update camera. At that point, we can offer you the RED Re-Certified Warranty ($750). If you purchase that, you get the 90 day warranty and ownership transferred to your name.

2. You don't want to spend the $500 for eval or deal with shipping, etc. Fine, you pay the $750 to have the camera owner of record updated in our systems. Obviously, you don't get the RED Re-Certified warranty because we cannot offer a warranty on a camera sight-unseen.

3. You don't want to spend the $750 to officially have ownership transferred. Camera remains in prior owner's name and that prior owner has to remain as liaison between you and RED.

We recommend option 1. We want a customer buying a RED ONE from a third party to know that the camera is in excellent health. By sending it in, you are also eligible to get the RED Re-Certified Warranty in addition to change of ownership.

The choice is yours as far as what path you want to take. No one is forced to pay anything to RED when buying from a third party. But, if you want us to check out the camera, to get a limited warranty, or officially change the owner in our database, there is a cost associated with those services.

If you have any questions about ownership transfers, please contact Kelly at kelly - at - red - dot - com as she personally handles each one of this cases.

BC

[Stephen Williams]

$750 to change the ownership records in your system, sounds like a good deal!

[Brent@RED]

If you send in your camera to be evaled, you get change of ownership and RED Re-Certified warranty for that fee. If you don't, you don't get the warranty part.

Assuming your last post is seasoned with sarcasm - if you don't like the terms, then don't choose that path.

BC

[Mark B.]

$750 to modify an ownership record?! That's nearly two weeks salary for a commoner. For a task that probably takes less than an hour. I'm officially disgusted. Actually, I'm so disgusted that now I'm going to have to rethink whether I want to do business with Red in the future.

[Julio Quintana]

$750 to modify an ownership record?! That's nearly two weeks salary for a commoner. For a task that probably takes less than an hour. I'm officially disgusted. Actually, I'm so disgusted that now I'm going to have to rethink whether I want to do business with Red in the future.

Pretty dramatic over-reaction considering the unprecedented concessions RED has made to their customers in the past.

[rod bradley]

And if you read carefully, Mark, it is not simply a transfer of ownership -- unless you choose it to be only that. It includes inspection and warranty if you choose that path.

The vast majority of people who've dealt with Red, seem to come away feeling Red has been more than fair and above board with its customers.

[David Rasberry]

Can an out of warranty camera be recertified and warranteed, like buying a service contract?
Extended service contracts are common on many high dollar electronics systems, and often are not cheap either. In that context Red's service fees seem pretty reasonable.

[Mark Pugh]

AFAIK, its $500 to transfer ownership/ inspect the camera, and another compulsory $750 for 3 months of warranty, bringing total transfer costs to $1250.

[Mark B.]

$750 - Transfer ownership
$1250 - Transfer ownership and get 90 days of warranty (so long as any immediately needed repairs are purchased before starting the warranty period)

If the camera is being sold to someone who just wants to upgrade to Epic/Scarlett, the inspection and 90 day warranty would be useless to them. If someone is buying the camera and knows it's in good shape (maybe they've already been renting the camera for a while), the inspection and 90 day warranty would be essentially useless to them.

Spending large amounts of money on camera gear can cause a person to lose touch with the value of money. $750 is a lot of money (for those of us who aren't rich). If I thought transferring ownership was a laborious process, I wouldn't have any problem paying the money. But its along the lines of typing in a new name and address into a database, not exactly hard labor.

As more competition comes to the market place, I'm going to assess the level of service I've gotten from Red, factoring in whether I think they're looking out for their customers or their own income. Charging $750 to populate a couple fields in a database is something that really damages their reputation in my eyes. The credit towards a new camera helps offset that, but I don't know if it's enough to keep me tied to the Red system. Today, right now, I'd jump ship if the market had any competent alternatives. Red has some time before that happens though... maybe they will redeem themselves before any competition comes along.

P.S. - Being in the video industry, a certain amount of drama is to be expected.

[Steve Sherrick]

A lot of this depends on the terms of the deal. If you are buying the camera used at say $16,000 for the body and need to pay $1250 to get it certified and under extended warranty, then it might make more sense to buy new. Unless there is a split in those fees which means the buyer would pay $16,625. But if the deal is really good, like camera body for $15,000 this makes buying used a bit more attractive. The other thing that makes buying used attractive is low serial #s that can be traded up for the Epics.

As an owner, I have felt Red has gone out of their way to support me and the purchase. First, there was the $2500 credit towards accessories for being early. Then the audio board upgrade (okay, I know that can be argued as a fix but still they paid for shipping to and fro and quick turnaround). Not to mention the constant firmware updates and the trade-in program when that happens. Early adopters have also been given priority on new accessories, etc. Red has taken care of their loyal customers.

You may not agree with their policy on the transfer of ownership, but disgusted with Red the company? That seems a bit excessive. But, that's not for me to judge.

[XiaoSu Han]

Wow, wasn't it just 500 USD before?

since when does it cost 1250 USD overall??

[Alexander Alexandrov]

Wow, wasn't it just 500 USD before?

since when does it cost 1250 USD overall??

yup, just bought a used red one a couple of weeks ago, paying $1250

[Brent@RED]

Has always been this way, XiaoSu Han.

Mark B - For what it is worth, it is a little more than "changing a name in a database". You are locked into queue for eternity with the original delivery date and serial number of that camera, get access to FREE firmware upgrades, get a dedicated BOMB SQUAD account rep, get a credit for an EPIC for the full $17,500 value of the RED ONE or scarlet credit, get 24/7 technical support, etc. In light of that, if you still are "disgusted" by RED, I recommend that you contact Kelly as I suggested in an earlier post. Or, if you would like to discuss with me, give me a ring tomorrow - 949.206.7900.

BC

[David Rasberry]

Very reasonable compared to say Polycom , who won't even take a phone call for tech support on one of their teleconference codecs, much less supply software updates, if you do not have a current service contract, typically $800 or more per year.

[Mark B.]

Has always been this way, XiaoSu Han.

Mark B - For what it is worth, it is a little more than "changing a name in a database". You are locked into queue for eternity with the original delivery date and serial number of that camera, get access to FREE firmware upgrades, get a dedicated BOMB SQUAD account rep, get a credit for an EPIC for the full $17,500 value of the RED ONE or scarlet credit, get 24/7 technical support, etc. In light of that, if you still are "disgusted" by RED, I recommend that you contact Kelly as I suggested in an earlier post. Or, if you would like to discuss with me, give me a ring tomorrow - 949.206.7900.

BC

I'm still annoyed. Free firmware updates and customer reps are appreciated, but they are also fairly standard for many companies so I can't be completely blown away that Red is providing them. The camera credit is a wonderful gesture, I totally appreciate it and it definitely counts in favor of Red. At the same time, I can't afford the upgrade cost to move to the new camera, so it's hard for me to unequivocally factor it in Red's favor.

I'll meditate on the situation though. I'll fume about it for a few months, knowing deep down that there's no tangible reason for such a high cost, but eventually time may heal the wound.

Anyway, my complaint is now known and I'll leave it to Red to muse on it.

[Steve Sherrick]

Mark, just so we all know where you are coming from on this, did you purchase a used camera or are you selling a camera? When was the sale? If recent, I think all of that language for the transfer of ownership, as well as the certification and warranty has been around for a while.

Not looking to probe into your business affairs by any means, and respect your right to air complaints here, just trying to understand as a fellow camera owner/user what the context is for this. I have found that free firmware upgrades when it comes to cameras are not always a given. To me, Red is like Sound Devices. Not only do they look to fix things with firmware updates, they also look to add features if possible. Support is also not a given. There are a lot of companies doing a VERY bad job of it these days. I have a RAID card that I'm about to toss into the trash because I can't get proper support. You are tossing aside the upgrade to Epic rather casually, and to me it's more than just a gesture. It's one that means Red is not just about money. If you have ever spoken to Jim, you know that this is not all about money. He actually really gives a shit, to the point where he's thinking outside the box a little to show loyalty to those who had faith in what they're trying to do.

Do they need to make money? Yes! If the profit isn't coming from camera sales (I have no idea) then it has to come from somewhere, or else the well runs dry and the customers will really be left in the cold. Maybe that's coming from accessory sales, warranty certifications, who knows. I think it's fine to call foul if you see it as such. I just think it's good to look at the whole picture. If you weigh everything and you still come out disgusted, then perhaps this is not the right match for you. Time to find another camera company.

Hopefully you get a chance to talk with people over at RED directly. I think you will find a phone call can do a whole lot of good.

[Mark B.]

Mark, just so we all know where you are coming from on this, did you purchase a used camera or are you selling a camera? When was the sale? If recent, I think all of that language for the transfer of ownership, as well as the certification and warranty has been around for a while.

Not looking to probe into your business affairs by any means, and respect your right to air complaints here, just trying to understand as a fellow camera owner/user what the context is for this. I have found that free firmware upgrades when it comes to cameras are not always a given. To me, Red is like Sound Devices. Not only do they look to fix things with firmware updates, they also look to add features if possible. Support is also not a given. There are a lot of companies doing a VERY bad job of it these days. I have a RAID card that I'm about to toss into the trash because I can't get proper support. You are tossing aside the upgrade to Epic rather casually, and to me it's more than just a gesture. It's one that means Red is not just about money. If you have ever spoken to Jim, you know that this is not all about money. He actually really gives a shit, to the point where he's thinking outside the box a little to show loyalty to those who had faith in what they're trying to do.

Do they need to make money? Yes! If the profit isn't coming from camera sales (I have no idea) then it has to come from somewhere, or else the well runs dry and the customers will really be left in the cold. Maybe that's coming from accessory sales, warranty certifications, who knows. I think it's fine to call foul if you see it as such. I just think it's good to look at the whole picture. If you weigh everything and you still come out disgusted, then perhaps this is not the right match for you. Time to find another camera company.

Hopefully you get a chance to talk with people over at RED directly. I think you will find a phone call can do a whole lot of good.

I'm coming from the perspective of having rented a camera to a long-term renter who now wants to buy.

The epic upgrade will be more significant to me when I eventually have enough to pay for it. You're probably right that I'm not giving the upgrade credit enough weight. I'm short-sighted these days.

[Alexander Alexandrov]

in buying a used red, me and the seller decided to go 50/50 on the costs; just an alternative to consider, for both sides buying/selling

[Steve Sherrick]

I'm coming from the perspective of having rented a camera to a long-term renter who now wants to buy.

The epic upgrade will be more significant to me when I eventually have enough to pay for it. You're probably right that I'm not giving the upgrade credit enough weight. I'm short-sighted these days.

Understood. That does help put things in context.

As I said, I don't want to get in the way of your business dealings with Red. I think in the heat of the moment, sometimes it's good to bounce these things off your peers and see what the general consensus is. Ultimately though. contacting Red and working through it will probably be the best way to go about it.

My final thought on this, if you have seen Jim's posts about the economy and advising people to be careful with their money (including purchasing RED products), I think that gives some perspective as to where he is coming from. I don't think the intent is to price gauge. But $1200 to one person is different than $1200 to another. So, I can understand that this will not sit well with everyone. But I just can't imagine the Red team sitting around a table saying "Hey we can make tons of money of people by overcharging on transfer of ownership"." Doesn't seem like their style.

[Stephen Williams]

Mark B - For what it is worth, it is a little more than "changing a name in a database". You are locked into queue for eternity with the original delivery date and serial number of that camera, get access to FREE firmware upgrades, get a dedicated BOMB SQUAD account rep, get a credit for an EPIC for the full $17,500 value of the RED ONE or scarlet credit, get 24/7 technical support, etc. In light of that, if you still are "disgusted" by RED, I recommend that you contact Kelly as I suggested in an earlier post. Or, if you would like to discuss with me, give me a ring tomorrow - 949.206.7900.

BC

Hi Brent,

Those benefits already applied to the original owner, so were presumably paid for with the original camera purchase.

Best,

Stephen

[Brent@RED]

As much as I would like to continue this lively debate, I am going to work on getting out the "your camera is ready for upgrade" email blast to the next group, You know, that program where RED is bringing in thousands of cameras to update them (ie, new audio board, ipins, etc) at NO COST to the customer. You are right, Steve, we don't sit around saying that. In fact, we usually do the opposite - "If we were the customer, how would we expect to get taken care of?" Don't listen to me, listen to people like David, Steve, and Rod in this thread - their opinion should matter more than anything I could say about our policies.

This is my last post in this thread. If you have any questions, please contact Kelly or I via 949.206.7900.

BC

[Julio Quintana]

I'm coming from the perspective of having rented a camera to a long-term renter who now wants to buy.


So you're selling your RED, and you can't afford to upgrade to EPIC. Aren't you already a lost customer? This thread is just a little silly...

[Yannick Hagman]

Will there also be a transfer sum attached to lower end Scarlets?

[DCC Erickson]

Seems like the cost of being on the bleeding edge. Of innovative technology and a one-of-a-kind relationship with the company breaking all the rules. For what some of you will happily pop for lenses, I don't see the issue. This ain't Sony (or Canon or Panasonic, or ...)

[Joyfool]

Although the transfer fee does sting. Red could have easily charged that fee upfront as a service contract just to get firmware updates (read Cisco and every other network appliance manufacturer). On a side note: it's also a means to discourage the purchase of stolen cameras. Assuming I find a deal too good to be true I'm still going to want to transfer ownership for the added benefits...however if the camera is stolen the seller will definitely not want to go that route (raising eyebrows)

Just my 2 centavos...As with most debates both sides have merit...

[Mark B.]

So you're selling your RED, and you can't afford to upgrade to EPIC. Aren't you already a lost customer? This thread is just a little silly...

Selling one of two. The second camera is staying with me for some time to come.

[Tim Whitcomb]

I'm doing the $1250. For trade-in alone and place in line
plus kick ass support and cool people and gear?

priceless.

Seems worth it to me. But what do I know?