What's the Best Choice for a Basic HMI Kit?

[Manfred Lopez]

Hey all,

I'm thinking about adding some basic HMI's to my kit. I am looking at the K5600 Joker Bug Combo 3 Light HMI PAR Kit (Link bellow)... which consists of a 200W, a 400W and an 800W head. Is this kit the best there is (for the money) that will solve most HMI lighting needs? Or can I do better by looking at Arri or Mole-Richardson? And are these wattages a good-all-around choice? Or should I look into higher wattages and only get one sub-1000w unit?

My primary use for them would be for music videos and indie features, so I am looking for a combination that will do for most situations. Oh, and I already own a very old 1200W Fresnel HMI made by Lee Lighting (as well as Tungsten and Kinos). Any opinions are very welcome... especially from peolple who use these kinds of lights all the time. Thanks in advance.


http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/472789-REG/K5600_K0200400800JBP_Joker_Bug_3_Light.html

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Hmm, I use this kit by Britek that I got for $1,000 with two 1Ks, two 650s, and a 300, plus it came with stands, softboxes, gloves, gels, a lighting DVD, etc. It has worked quite well for indie needs, I mean it's not great, but an experienced DP we worked with looked over the stuff and was like, "Hey this is pretty good!" haha. It's not that bad of a kit.

We're looking into getting a bunch more "standard," "professional" lights, though, from Mole Richardson. If you find any other good packages definitely let me know, I want to find something where I can get a bunch of needed accessories (c-stands, flags, silks, etc.) in one package that will be pretty good for our needs. Then I'll buy a 2K and so will David, for our purposes there's really no reason we'd ever need more than a few 2Ks and some 1Ks, etc.

[Manfred Lopez]

Hmm, I use this kit by Britek that I got for $1,000 with two 1Ks, two 650s, and a 300, plus it came with stands, softboxes, gloves, gels, a lighting DVD, etc.

But are those HMI's? It doesn't sound like it... at least not for $1000. I am interested in daylight balanced sources that throw a lot of light and draw little power.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I know what you mean, that is a great solution, we were looking into a 1.2Kw HMI that was $8,800 at Mole Richardson! Really expensive.. the guy told us honestly that we wouldn't be served well by buying something we probably will not use that often, and that he could rent it to us for just a few hundred a week.

[Adrian Correia]

rent the HMIs. Although the 1.2K is a workhouse for me on low budget shoots - the price to buy and the subsequent repairs are just too steep a price for the light. I much prefer the look of corrected tungsten anyway....but then you need much bigger units....generator....etc....

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Yeah, that's the problem, it's so nice to have something put out so much light without using too much electricity. This guy said we could get away with just using filters on tungsten lights, of course not quite as much light, but it'd be something.

[Kevin Halverson]

Yeah, that's the problem, it's so nice to have something put out so much light without using too much electricity. This guy said we could get away with just using filters on tungsten lights, of course not quite as much light, but it'd be something.

The problem with trying to use CTBed tungsten sources is that they will produce between 8:1 and 10:1 less output than a comparable HMI with the same power consumption.

I agree with what others have stated, rent what you need. Owning expensive sources like HMIs isn't practical unless you are shooting all the time.

[Bruce Allen]

I agree with what others have stated, rent what you need. Owning expensive sources like HMIs isn't practical unless you are shooting all the time.

Haha, I am thinking the opposite - own lights, rent Red!

Everyone in LA buys cameras. Few people buy lights!

Although I must admit, conventional wisdom about lights not going out of date / depreciating in value as much as digital equipment might be challenged in the next 10 years if LEDs really get going...

Anyone played with the weather-resistant Kobolds? They looked super to me at CineGear.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Ken Willinger]

I'd pass on the Joker 200 and the 800, but the 400 is a very versatile light that I use often, and have one in my kit. If you need more punch than that... rent. If you need less, you can easily cut from the 400. I've got 2 Kino Flo Divas as well in the kit that can be swapped out 32 or 56. Kind of useless outdoors but a great soft light for inside. I end up using them alot!

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Well, every time I shoot I will be using the camera, but every time I shoot I won't need to replicate daylight... honestly the HMIs can be rented without it being as big of a deal, because I won't use them on every shoot.

[Michael Ragen]

Hey Bruce,

Have you seen a link to purchase the Kobolds. I can't find a price anywhere, only for accessories. I would love to have a 400w in my kit. Thanks.

[Paul Hazlett]

http://set-lighting.com/index.php?manufacturers_id=17&osCsid=857702b3f36cbf1e8b766873874e496e

here is a link to some reasonable HMI's looks like;

I have never used them, so do your homework on these.

[Bruce Allen]

Hey Bruce,

Have you seen a link to purchase the Kobolds. I can't find a price anywhere, only for accessories. I would love to have a 400w in my kit. Thanks.

Yeah, they seem pretty difficult to find! Maybe super expensive. I think the 200W kit was $5000.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Adrian Correia]

Divas...those are wonderful...use those alot in interviews...

[Adrian Correia]

Deadmike.....I'm racing you to 100 posts!

[Bruce Allen]

Divas...those are wonderful...use those alot in interviews...

Yep. Any real competitors to them that are as sturdy and compact? I'm looking at buying them for use with my HV20 - rented them twice and liked them. So far LEDs aren't quite there yet, right?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Júlio Taubkin]

Check the lighting section at dvxuser.com We may see some pretty affordable and high quality solutions coming to the market shortly.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=99866

[Bruce Allen]

Check the lighting section at dvxuser.com We may see some pretty affordable and high quality solutions coming to the market shortly.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=99866

Yep, checked those out. Looking for some professional opinions on their sturdiness... although you could always just buy a second one as a backup ;)

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Steve Tammi]

The Kino Flo Gaffer Kit has been the most versitile light for me so far. It is great for green/blue screen and corporate video. I keep a set of 3200 and 5600 tubes on hand at all times to mix with the tungsten kit and gels.

Steve

[Kevin Halverson]

Yep. Any real competitors to them that are as sturdy and compact? I'm looking at buying them for use with my HV20 - rented them twice and liked them. So far LEDs aren't quite there yet, right?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

I got the Lowel Case lite 4, similar to the Diva's and a bit lower cost. Its a great source and very versatile, I use them all the time.

http://lowel.com/kits/caselite4.html

[Adrian Correia]

Yep. Any real competitors to them that are as sturdy and compact? I'm looking at buying them for use with my HV20 - rented them twice and liked them. So far LEDs aren't quite there yet, right?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

That is actually what I am waiting for....a great LED set-up that I can afford...still looking!

[Adrian Correia]

right now - the DIVAs are the best thing I have used....I like how everything is built in - reduces on set clutter for me and cuts down on time needed for repositioning. I shot a whole cooking show with one of these as my soft key....loved it!

[Ken Willinger]

Here's another company doing some relatively inexpensive flourescent lighting units. I've used them, but don't own them. I may get one of their 4 banks. The 6 banks are very nice also and used them recently on a commercial.
http://www.flolight.com/

[Alexander Nikishin]

I've got a brand new, lightly used Kino Flo Diva 400 for sale, how's $600? That's $170 off even B&H Photo's price......

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/258601-REG/Kino_Flo_DIV400120_Diva_Lite_400_Fluorescent_Light .html

If interested, PM me.

[Richard Andrewski]

Yep, checked those out. Looking for some professional opinions on their sturdiness... although you could always just buy a second one as a backup ;)

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Backup indeed ;-) We've been working very hard here on HMIs and some other great stuff. Many of these solutions will cost half (or even less than half in some cases) of what current ones are thanks to my determination on the subject.

The build quality is excellent, just like the current stuff we offer as many, many DVXuser customers will tell you.

Special pre-order offers are coming up soon.


http://www.coollights.biz/images/productshots/575wPar.jpg http://www.coollights.biz/images/productshots/575AllTheParts.jpg
http://www.coollights.biz/images/productshots/1200w1.jpg http://www.coollights.biz/images/productshots/1200w2.jpg

[Alexander Nikishin]

Backup indeed ;-) We've been working very hard here on HMIs and some other great stuff. Many of these solutions will cost half (or even less than half in some cases) of what current ones are thanks to my determination on the subject.

The build quality is excellent, just like the current stuff we offer as many, many DVXuser customers will tell you.

Special pre-order offers are coming up soon.


Any chance of getting those in a black finish?

[Richard Andrewski]

Any chance of getting those in a black finish?

Very hard to please everyone! ;-) Actually its possible but I wouldn't recommend it. I struggled with the finishes a lot. I'll have to check with the factory but we might be able to offer the choice of finish. We have quite a bit of flexibility since I'm calling the shots there.

Many, many engineers I talked to all told me the same thing. To keep HMI (and metal halide in general) bulbs alive for their stated lifetime, you want to do everything you can to make sure heat dissipates well from the fixture. Think of the fixture as a big heat sink for the bulb besides its other obvious and indispensible uses.

Black, while mostly used for studio fixtures, seems to be a very bad idea for heat dissipation. Leaving the middle an anodized silver which is pretty attractive (as shown on the 1200w model) and very logical too for many reasons. We were going to finish the front and back in dark green for our HMI line and black for the tungsten line.

[Finner]

That is actually what I am waiting for....a great LED set-up that I can afford...still looking!

I would wait on the LED option for a while as they still have a long way to go. They have a lot of pluses but unfortunately their colour temp is all over the map and can even change as running on a long scene. They tend to go back to a more original colour temp after they have been shut off for a while but it is very difficult to have 2 matching lights at any given time.

[Alexander Nikishin]

I would wait on the LED option for a while as they still have a long way to go. They have a lot of pluses but unfortunately their colour temp is all over the map and can even change as running on a long scene. They tend to go back to a more original colour temp after they have been shut off for a while but it is very difficult to have 2 matching lights at any given time.

Not to mention they blind the talent as if they were a 50k softsun.

[Richard Andrewski]

I would wait on the LED option for a while as they still have a long way to go. They have a lot of pluses but unfortunately their colour temp is all over the map and can even change as running on a long scene. They tend to go back to a more original colour temp after they have been shut off for a while but it is very difficult to have 2 matching lights at any given time.

Heat dissipation is a big problem with LEDs. Your comment is not surprising as when the heat goes up and its not vented or sinked properly, the efficiency of the LEDs goes down and their life could even be shortened.

In addition, they are mostly at 30 lumens per watt efficiency which is a bit better than tungsten at 20 LPW. Some in labs have obtained 100 LPW but we're a ways from getting those models. I wonder what people really want in a great LED unit? What would make you use one as a softlight panel and what features would you need?

In addition, talking about hard light options for LEDs, if there were a small pepper fresnel with a 150w single LED that put out around 4000 lumens or so (about the equivalent of a 200w tungsten unit)--would that be interesting, even if it turned out to be a very expensive unit (perhaps very close to $1000)? In other words, would you consider it an expensive novelty and continue using a 150w pepper tungsten fresnel instead? We have some access to LEDs such as this but I've been spending more time on the HMI's under the assumption it's more bang for the buck. The high wattage LEDs are really very expensive still.

[martinnoweck]

I'd pass on the Joker 200 and the 800, but the 400 is a very versatile light that I use often, and have one in my kit. If you need more punch than that... rent. If you need less, you can easily cut from the 400. I've got 2 Kino Flo Divas as well in the kit that can be swapped out 32 or 56. Kind of useless outdoors but a great soft light for inside. I end up using them alot!

I would recommend something similar: if often worked with a kit / a pair of two joker 400 in combination with chimera. So if you want to have a basic kit for documentaries, indie pictures, etc. the k5600 are good to own and easy to transport.

The dop who owns the set saved some money by getting the HMI ballasts from kobold instead of k5600.

regards,
martin

[Alexander Nikishin]

In other words, would you consider it an expensive novelty and continue using a 150w pepper tungsten fresnel instead?

Without a doubt, yes.

[Curran Giddens]

http://www.coollights.biz/images/productshots/1200w1.jpg http://www.coollights.biz/images/productshots/1200w2.jpg

I like the blue finnish. Then I could pretend they are Arri HMI's costing twice as much. heh heh. :tongue:

Also, I think Curt (CVB) from View Factor Studios said they will be making lights.

[Finner]

I also like the finish and look as well. I also thought they looked like arri lamps.

What sizes will they come in and do you have a price list?

[Adrian Correia]

when does Curt have time to make lights...or motion control heads....or matteboxes....or even breath....I've got it....Curt is a cyborg...

[Adrian Correia]

Backup indeed ;-) We've been working very hard here on HMIs and some other great stuff. Many of these solutions will cost half (or even less than half in some cases) of what current ones are thanks to my determination on the subject.

The build quality is excellent, just like the current stuff we offer as many, many DVXuser customers will tell you.

Special pre-order offers are coming up soon.


http://www.coollights.biz/images/productshots/575wPar.jpg http://www.coollights.biz/images/productshots/575AllTheParts.jpg
http://www.coollights.biz/images/productshots/1200w1.jpg http://www.coollights.biz/images/productshots/1200w2.jpg

Wow...I'm not really into buying lights...but these look fantastic. Couple with that the incredibily high rental prices here in Connecticut (2 day weekends...boo!!) and I might have to invest in these...any idea of a pricepoint or possible preorder dates?

[Adrian Correia]

have I mentioned what an incredible resource all of you guys are?

[Paul Hazlett]

In addition, talking about hard light options for LEDs, if there were a small pepper fresnel with a 150w single LED that put out around 4000 lumens or so (about the equivalent of a 200w tungsten unit)--would that be interesting, even if it turned out to be a very expensive unit (perhaps very close to $1000)? In other words, would you consider it an expensive novelty and continue using a 150w pepper tungsten fresnel instead? .

I would not buy leds for the sake of LEDs they have to return something for the investment. better quality light, lower cost of ownership, more durable,
whatever....there has to be a good reason to switch. Daylight leds with punch for interiors would be awesome and worth the money I think.

With a combination of divas and an arri kit I have had very few instances where I would need anything else.


Now the HMIs on the other hand look pretty nice I would love to be able
to have on hand a 1.2 K and 575 for a reasonable price.

[Paul Hazlett]

Backup indeed ;-) We've been working very hard here on HMIs and some other great stuff. Many of these solutions will cost half (or even less than half in some cases) of what current ones are thanks to my determination on the subject.

The build quality is excellent, just like the current stuff we offer as many, many DVXuser customers will tell you.

Special pre-order offers are coming up soon.


http://www.coollights.biz/images/productshots/575wPar.jpg http://www.coollights.biz/images/productshots/575AllTheParts.jpg
http://www.coollights.biz/images/productshots/1200w1.jpg http://www.coollights.biz/images/productshots/1200w2.jpg

Adrian can I ask you a quick tech question. why have you chosen to position
the cable in such a way a to potentionally cause strain? is it an internal
routing thing? seems to me it would be better left as a straight run up.
just wondering...

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I'm definitely interested....

I'm using whatever lights I can find in a pinch on most projects. Even contractor lights or whatever I can borrow. The local rental houses are typically rented out when I need lights on short notice. And if I add up all the money I've spent on light rentals in the past 2 years, I could have just bought some lights already.

[Bruce Allen]

We've been working very hard here on HMIs and some other great stuff. Many of these solutions will cost half (or even less than half in some cases) of what current ones are thanks to my determination on the subject.
Backup indeed ;-)

Wow, looks really great.

What I meant that to say (but totally failed to) was if you take them onto a set and someone says "it's not a Mole, what if it breaks down?" then you can say "well, actually I have a tested spare one sitting right here, ready to go if the first one gives problems".

And of course, the first one won't give problems, so very soon you can take that second one out of your car and start using it too ;)

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Manfred Lopez]

I guess I would use them enough to justify the purchase. I'm in an area where you simply can't rent. And using something for outside lighting is what really makes a production stand out IMHO. For example, there is nothing like having the talent bathed in HMI light shined through a big chimera in an otherwise bright day. I find that it really gives it a profesional look. Much better then trying to fiddle around with bounce boards.

[Richard Andrewski]

Wow, looks really great.

What I meant that to say (but totally failed to) was if you take them onto a set and someone says "it's not a Mole, what if it breaks down?" then you can say "well, actually I have a tested spare one sitting right here, ready to go if the first one gives problems".

And of course, the first one won't give problems, so very soon you can take that second one out of your car and start using it too ;)

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Any new company has a battle against established companies when they're coming on the market. I think you'll find though, there's very little to separate these things mechanically or electronically. All the same components are available to me as are to Arri, K5600, Kino Flo, etc. The very fact that you can use an original Osram HMI or a clone HMI bulb in our HMI fixtures or a Kino Flo bulb in our fluorescent fixtures means that we are following the normal standards for all those bulb types in our fixtures. And we only use very high quality, universal voltage input, lightweight and small electronic ballasts.

When you're paying double to four times more than you need to for for some of these other name brand solutions, many times it's a dealer network you're paying for rather than a factory direct solution like we offer. You're also paying for a larger corporate (and sometimes bloated) infrastructure too with lots of employees. Cool Lights is a small family run company with lots of partners and contractors so our overhead is lower and we don't have a dealer network either. I get lots of inquiries from dealers and I usually refuse them because it just means I need to mark things up even more to allow for their profit and support. We have the same spirit of independence that many "indies" have because I am one...

When deciding where to spend your product dollars it's a question of deciding if you like the dealer / middle man system with all the things, both good and bad that come with it.

[Richard Andrewski]

I guess I would use them enough to justify the purchase. I'm in an area where you simply can't rent. And using something for outside lighting is what really makes a production stand out IMHO. For example, there is nothing like having the talent bathed in HMI light shined through a big chimera in an otherwise bright day. I find that it really gives it a profesional look. Much better then trying to fiddle around with bounce boards.

Reasons I decided to offer an HMI solution:

1). Cost of existing solutions is out of whack with reality. 2). This created a rental market which is silly for those that may need to use a product on a regular basis. 3). I originally only thought to offer a fluorescent solution but quickly realized I wouldn't have a full, rounded product offering unless I offered a hard light too. I wasn't too keen on tungsten though and everyone offers it already. 4). Metal halide / HMI comes out to be the most efficient hard light (for now). 5). Thought it was interesting to expose what's been going on with HMIs and how the prices have been kept artificially inflated just like they have been in the past with fluorescent. ;-)

[Richard Andrewski]

I would not buy leds for the sake of LEDs they have to return something for the investment. better quality light, lower cost of ownership, more durable,
whatever....there has to be a good reason to switch. Daylight leds with punch for interiors would be awesome and worth the money I think.

With a combination of divas and an arri kit I have had very few instances where I would need anything else.


Now the HMIs on the other hand look pretty nice I would love to be able
to have on hand a 1.2 K and 575 for a reasonable price.

Exactly. That's why I put all LED projects on hold for the moment. I loved the idea of being the first with an LED fresnel but what good is it if it's too expensive and no one can afford it?

HMI really offers more for the money. I do have some interesting and unique LED ideas for later though and for those times you have to film in a car at night, or need that extra fill light on a product shoot, or have to have a small nook light in a cramped corner--LEDs are really "it."

[Richard Andrewski]

I'm definitely interested....

I'm using whatever lights I can find in a pinch on most projects. Even contractor lights or whatever I can borrow. The local rental houses are typically rented out when I need lights on short notice. And if I add up all the money I've spent on light rentals in the past 2 years, I could have just bought some lights already.

Yes! And doesn't it make you mad? What a scam this whole HMI thing has been. I know it made me mad because I understand manufacturing, components, etc and know what things really cost. Amazing how long it took for someone to do what we're doing now. Someone really needed to be honest about these things and charge for a reasonable profit not the outlandish price structure that has been going on.

[Ken Willinger]

The dop who owns the set saved some money by getting the HMI ballasts from kobold instead of k5600.

I did the same thing but got the Power Gems ballast. I think it's better made than the K5600 ballast.

[Richard Andrewski]

Adrian can I ask you a quick tech question. why have you chosen to position
the cable in such a way a to potentionally cause strain? is it an internal
routing thing? seems to me it would be better left as a straight run up.
just wondering...

I'm Richard, not Adrian ;-)

The picture I have shown here is the original product as I found it. I'm making improvements to it and the cabling will be one of them. As I mentioned before, color will change from blue to dark green on front and back with anodized in the middle like in the picture. Other improvements will include a handle on the back of some of the units to allow you to position angle easier (and not burn your hand), smaller and very lightweight electronic ballast (I looked at magnetic but while they cost less, they're just not a portable solution), and feel free to offer other suggestions. We're still finishing this up so we have some flexibility in changes until manufacturing of the final solution begins. A few improvements to the tungsten models too which include the handle on the back, an IEC plug adapter so you can easily change the power plug to whatever is used in your country and front and back will be black, middle anodized silver. Power plugs on all units will be 15 feet long and have the IEC adapter on one end and an American plug on the other end--but as I stated earlier, with the IEC solution, it's easy to change this out.

HMI Par Pricing

As for prices, the 575w par I showed will be in the $1999 range but $1699 in our pre-offer. Will include the items shown in the picture: electronic HR ballast, 1 HR bulb, barndoors, set of 3 removable lenses and 30 foot lamp cable. Back of the unit is removable and could be used in a lantern configuration when we get a glass protection beaker option built for it.

The 1200w will be in the $2900 range but $2400 in our pre-offer. Will include safety lens, 1 extra removable par lens, barndoors, electronic hot restrike ballast, 30 foot lamp cable and 1 HR bulb. The extra lenses available for this model are pricey at around $350 each but use "imported" glass from Europe so it's more expensive from the Chinese point of view ;-)

We also will have a less expensive 575w model without HR for about $699 in the preoffer. $899 later. Includes a set of 3 lenses, barndoors, electronic non-HR ballast, 1 bulb and long lamp cable.

HMI Compact Fresnel Pricing

150w (comes in a 650w compact size fresnel body) with non-HR electronic ballast, barndoors and 1 bulb (in choice of 3000K or 5400K). $399 pre-offer price. $549 later.

575w (comes in 1000w compact size fresnel body) with electronic HR ballast, 30 foot lamp cable, barndoors and 1 HR bulb (only 5600K/6000K). $699 pre-offer price. $899 later.

We can also do a 1200w fresnel but interest isn't so high in it at this point.

Tungsten Compact Fresnel Pricing

150w Pre-offer $149 - later $199
300w Pre-offer $169 - later $230
650w Pre-offer $199 - later $265
1000w Pre-offer $250 - later $335

All those include barndoors of course. We're not making too much on the tungsten models and just offering them mostly in the pre-offer with a few as stock later. I'm only carrying them at all for reasons I've talked about before in my blog or on DVXUser which I think are very logical reasons and a win/win for us and you.