Vegas R3D color grading

[Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso]

I don´t really know what vegas is doing when trasncoding the colour space from redcode files, but whatever it is doing:
- looks different than redcine
- looks better than in any other application. I have Scratch here at my side as well as FCP. The images i´m getting out of Vegas look better. I´m still figuring why this is happening.

[jbeale]

That is certainly surprising... what settings are you using? Any chance of posting a few example still frames side-by-side?

[Chuck Fryberger]

I have been experimenting with Vegas a bit. Here are three frames I opened in vegas and did basic adjustments to. Levels, Curves, Color Corrector, and Sharpening. Critiques anyone?
When Vegas is in 8-bit mode, the hue does appear to shift, causing everything to look purple. I've noticed that when you preview a .R3D from the explorer window it previews in 8-bit mode no matter what mode your timeline is in, then when you drop the file into the timeline it turns into the bland look typical of raw files.

To my eye, Vegas seems to do a good job using all the data from the original Raw file. In the picture here with the old cars, the sky seems very un-banded compared to what I would have expected with a file like DVCPRO HD.

[Sanjin Jukic]

I can smell immediately that somebody here on this tread is a SONY Boy "Scooter" like a secret agent

THAT IS just employed (HERE) to "seduce" all of us to buy some of those products, or...,... just curious and kiding of course !!! :rofl: ...

[Miltos Pilalitos]

One of the reasons i changed to Sony Vegas five years ago was that i discovered it was the only editor that wouldn't clip Superwhite and Superblack information from my DV footage (Old good DVX100 days). Most people didn't even know what i was talking about back then and i am sure many don't even now...

I still believe Vegas is the best editor around with the best sound editing capabilities. I haven't tried it with RED footage yet as i am still using Vegas 8 but i will upgrade soon to version 9.

I believe what macgregor sees because i know Vegas.

[Roberto Lequeux]

I will not make my final decision until I have a pro monitor hooked up through Red Rocket and I can turn to ask a pro colorist with 20+ years of experience what they think. But...

Sanjin, have you ever used Vegas 9? Otherwise please don't scare me.

[Brian Kaz]

Seeing as most people on here are Mac freaks, I'm sure they're a bit skeptic that anything could possibly be as good or better on a "win-doze" PC. ;)

[Peter Moretti]

One of the reasons i changed to Sony Vegas five years ago was that i discovered it was the only editor that wouldn't clip Superwhite and Superblack information from my DV footage (Old good DVX100 days). Most people didn't even know what i was talking about back then and i am sure many don't even now...

I just want to say that Avid does not clip superwhites/blacks.

It is very aware of thier existence and gives excellent control over how they are handled every step of the way: from import or capture, to export or laying off to tape.

[Nicholas Costaras]

I tend to think my images have too much blue...Even the factory defaults are a little too purply for me. But I treat it as a new grade and don't reference REDCINE at all. I also like the fact that you can go as low as 50 ISO and there are more intervals of ISO to choose from. What does suck is the fact that you can't save presets...that for me is quite an obvious stuff up. I have 5 takes that need the same grading but now i have to write it on pen an paper....kills me.

[Roberto Lequeux]

What does suck is the fact that you can't save presets...that for me is quite an obvious stuff up. I have 5 takes that need the same grading but now i have to write it on pen an paper....kills me.


Indeed... completely insane.

I feel fairly confident that they will fix this though... I mean all they have to do is copy whatever code they already have written for the rest of the stuff over to this section, right?

[donatello b]

"I have 5 takes that need the same grading but now i have to write it on pen an paper"

try this ... in Vegas PROJECT MEDIA window choose the 5 clips ( hold down ALT and select clips by left clicking mouse ).after you have selected your 5 clip ...then right click on one of them and choose file format properties - the Red window will pop up .. now enter your adjustments ..
NOTE: be sure to have your curser in the TL selected to one of the 5 clips - the clip that is showing in the Vegas preview window is the one you'll see as you change the settings
when finished hit OK and Vegas will apply those setting to the 5 clips ...
the UNDO does not work on the above
to UNDO you'll have to again select the 5 clips and then select either reset to clip or factory default...

[Wesman]

Are there any plug-ins that let you do better power masks in Vegas? I have been playing around with the cookie cutter and it is pretty weak. Also, have people had good luck with color grading RAW in vegas. I am trying it out for the first time. I have installed Magic Bullet Looks and this plug in, ColorLab, which is pretty incredible. (http://aav6cc.blogspot.com/) How does this line up compare to Apple Color?

[Roberto Lequeux]

Hey, that effect you just linked has a WB picker. I'd like to know how that one works.

[Nicholas Costaras]

"I have 5 takes that need the same grading but now i have to write it on pen an paper"

when finished hit OK and Vegas will apply those setting to the 5 clips ...
the UNDO does not work on the above
to UNDO you'll have to again select the 5 clips and then select either reset to clip or factory default...


Thanks...

[Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso]

Masks is the only remaining tool for heavy color grading in Vegas. Other than that you can do basically everything.
I also just installed Color Lab and i was impressed. I had been using the older 6way color correction plug in but the new color lab plugin just does what amazing stuff considering its price ($0) ;D.
And the fact that it is powered by GPU makes it even more powerful.
Grading R3D files in vegas delivers excellent results (i´m even considering for a film project). They only need to solve the stabiliy problems.

[Roberto Lequeux]

Miguel, do you mean masks as in rotoscoping for compositing?

[RANT!!]I HATE the horrible feather to blend the edges... instead of making it disappear it adds a dark edge instead?!?! I can't stand it, especially because it seems it is otherwise ready to go. If only I could make the edges disappear with a soft feather.[/RANT!!]

Also, Miguel, do you get good speeds on R3Ds using Color Lab on the GPU? If so what fps and what card are you using? And at what resolution? And finally... :) Can it be set to run on the CPU?

[Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso]

Yes, i mean the usual circle, elipse, recntangle and free masks that you find in any grading software.

I can´t get real time with r3ds unless i´m going to very small preview window. I´m using a 2008 8core 3.0 Ghz mac pro and the best i get is like 20-22 fps.

Color lab does not seem to affect playback performance, which is great. Nvidia 8800.

[Roberto Lequeux]

I see... I just downloaded it and boy it is a sexy little plug in! Very sweet. And it is FAST! No playback issues at all for me when using it either and I only have a GX2 (dual 7950's).

Does anyone do compositing in Vegas? It it possible to do any compositing without seeing the edges?

[William Barber]

[RANT!!]I HATE the horrible feather to blend the edges... instead of making it disappear it adds a dark edge instead?!?! I can't stand it, especially because it seems it is otherwise ready to go. If only I could make the edges disappear with a soft feather.[/RANT!!]


I don't have Vegas here with me, so please excuse the vague instructions.

In the event fx window of the clip that has any number of effects on it, click on the triangles at the bottom left of the window to reverse their direction. They're located to the left of the mini keyframing timeline.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_VYHts5OoWDY/RzHhKv9IOXI/AAAAAAAAAE8/l5VyB4x-BOE/s400/tut6.jpg

You'll probably need to do some fooling around to make the edges blend like you (and I) would expect them to, but it should work. Let me know if you can't make it work.

[Roberto Lequeux]

Wait, I am not talking about keyed footage. And what is HSL? I never used those.

I am trying to get the edges for Masks, in the Pan/Crop window.

[Wesman]

There must be some plugin out there to make better cookie cutter effects. I have also noticed the shitty feathering. If the power masks were better ie would let you draw a customized shape, then PC owners would basically have the power of Apple Color with Vegas + MB Looks + ColorLab. Otherwise it looks like after effects may be the best solution for finishing, which would be a drag for efficiency (Vegas is so close!)

[Brian Kaz]

Wait, I am not talking about keyed footage. And what is HSL? I never used those.

I am trying to get the edges for Masks, in the Pan/Crop window.

I'm pretty sure there's no way around the masked edge issue you describe as long as you're using coloring plugins applied. But to my knowledge, that's the ONLY time it happens when feathering. William's idea may work on this too, seeing as Chroma key edge "blur" will produce that same issue as well.

HSL= Hue, Saturation, Luminence.

[donatello b]

CC using mask ( pan/crop) as power window ...
1) when you draw your mask make it little larger then the object ..
2) feathering Type .. try BOTH
3) feather it a little more then you think ..i find i'm usually in the 20-30 range

[donatello b]

here's a quick example of using Mask ( pan/crop) as a power window

[Roberto Lequeux]

Thanks Kaz.

Donatello, I have tried feathering both ways to no avail. I wish your samples were bigger as it is impossible to judge at that size, but your transition does seem to be far better than anything I've gotten. I should try to cut it bigger, but I doubt it will deal with my issue which was a dark shadow that went only along the line( which makes no sense at all to me, I don't get it)...

I 100% agree that if I could do proper masks I wouldn't even think twice about doing my whole movie in Vegas once I tested the output to a Pro Plasma and found it to be accurate. Though bigger color wheels and curve graphs together with bigger dials would also add a big chunk of awesomeness to Vegas.

About Magic Bullet... why does everyone prefer using it when Vegas does the same with it's own tools? Is it because of a "je ne sais quoi" quality to the MB grades? I thought this was only due to the higher bit-depth processing but now with 32-bit floating in V9 isn't that a mute point?

[donatello b]

keep a eye on the scopes (view the 4 scopes ) ...
keep the bottom black the same on both layers ... you can't have one layer with black at 0 and the other layer with black at 16 ...
be very careful using the "offset" in the CC plug in =very easy to cause black line ( - direction) and white line (+ direction ) ..if using Color Curves to set black level -again be very careful setting the bottom end ( black) ... the blacker the black you create the more feathering you need ...

i usally do not use mask (pan crop) for CC power windows ... when i did CC that shot i used the Cookie cutter (triangle shape), usually feathering in the .50- 1.50 range ( you have to keep making the size LARGER as you apply feather ) .. i project to 9ft screen ...final out to blu ray ...

from sitting in on CC session using DaVinci etc .. they use a square, circle, oval for power windows ... i think that's all magic bullet can do too...

what CC plugins are you using on your clips ?

[Roberto Lequeux]

I can't remember but I had Color Balance, Curves and Brightness and Contrast for sure. So I most likely messed up the blacks and didn't have them lining up. However I played a lot with it trying to get it to match...

...but now that you put it that way it makes much more sense and I know what to look for. I should try again and see what I get. It might do the trick.

[donatello b]

your missing the most powerful plugin ...
use the Color corrrector ( 3 color wheels ) ,
to fine tune a face, object or specific color use 2ndary CC ..
color curves is excellent plugin...
IMO you won't use color balance or brightness/contrast after your learn the color wheel plug in ..

in the CC ( 3 color wheels) you also have gain, offset, gamma ..
to learn each ..
the saturation in color wheels is different then the HSL & saturation plug in .. sometimes one works better then the other -all depends on the clip & look you want ...

the CC 2ndary takes a little practice to get a good solid mask ...

[Roberto Lequeux]

I use Color Corrector but the small wheels piss me off very rapidly, eventhough I have a mous that let's me lower the sensitivity with the press of a button. I also use secondary color corrector all the time and masks with Red Code are extremely useful! Far better than DVCpro HD! Love it... love Red...

I was only talking about what I remembered I had on that one shot with the failed mask. I know them all very well and find that three color balances each set to a different sector (low/med/high) can be very powerful... I wish you could use a single one and simply toggle between your values as opposed to needing three though...

I so my saturation and gain on the Color Corrector but I don't use gamma or offset much as I do that with brightness and contrast with much more control. Offset can be useful for what you were describing regarding matching the blacks for the feather to disappear. I'll check it out and see if I get better results but something tells me I already thought of that and still couldn't get it to go away. It was a while back so I don't remember. The feathering options on AE are far superior so I thought it was hopeless and gave up.

I always use the scopes. Personally I like to use the histogram Vectorscope and waveform. Here I wish the RGB histogram had different layout so I end up using the single one... also it should have much more detail on the graph itself... it is too blocky

I should use the HSL, which I suppose would replace much of the use I have for the Color Corrector.

Again, all of these tweaks are minor, and with them Vegas could kick ASS... bigger wheels, curve graphs, longer dials, graphical representation of the curves for R3D's, fix the feathering in the Pan/Crop to make it useful... it is al ready to go minus the feather!!! I love how it is animated between your keyframes... all it needs is a good transition from one layer to the other with an actual feather! just make us able to dissolve the top layer inward, out, both... it is all there but for some f'ING reason it doesn't simply dissolve... it darkens!!! or something... ??!!??!! I don't want to have to work on FCP... especially if Intel releases their dual socket i7 Motherboard! In 64-bit Windows it would destroy FCP... DESTROY it... 16 threads at 3.8Ghz! And 24GB or 1600Mhz 7-7-7-21 DDR3!!! Vegas could finally become an equal once we showed the rest of the world how fast and comprehensive it were... if they just fixed these little tiny bumps on the carpet...

[William Barber]

Wait, I am not talking about keyed footage. And what is HSL? I never used those.

I am trying to get the edges for Masks, in the Pan/Crop window.

I know you're not, that was just a random example of the window I was talking about that I found in google images. For some reason you have to hit a triangle or two in the event fx window to make your pan/crop mask edges work right.

[Roberto Lequeux]

I am so lost... please explain further. You mean the little triangles to the left of the effect name in the keyframe timeline? What do you gain by reversing them? And what does it do to the effect?

[William Barber]

I am so lost... please explain further. You mean the little triangles to the left of the effect name in the keyframe timeline? What do you gain by reversing them? And what does it do to the effect?

Yes, those triangles. If you click them, they reverse their direction. I'm not sure exactly what this does, but a few years ago when I had the same problem, someone told me to click on one or two until the feathered mask edges weren't dark lines anymore.

[Roberto Lequeux]

WHAT?Q?!!?

Hahaha... that is so f'ing random, but I love it. Hahah... I'll have to give it a try and let you know if it fixed it. :)

[donatello b]

those little triangle tell the plugins if they should be processed either before or after pan/crop & compositing ... Vegas defaults to process pan-crop/compositing 1st then process plugins ... if you reverse the triangle ( to point left) it will process that plugin 1st then process pan-crop/compositing, and then do the remaining FX plugins ....
from what i recall in 8 bit there's a difference in quality when you have several plug ins depending on your process order ..most of that changed with 32bit float processing ... there still could be a slight difference on heavy compositing ..somebody who does heavy FX work will know what order does what etc ..
there might be a preference to process reduce grain/noise before applying the chroma key fx (uses compositing)

[William Barber]

Thanks for the explanation. Makes sense now.

[Roberto Lequeux]

Oh, ok, so if you first cropped then performed some sort of diffusion it would bleed out? Is that why? Either way it sounds like it will do the trick. I wish I had it here so I could check it. Thanks for the explanation.

[Michael Schatz]

I am so happy to see some Vegas love here as I have been using Vegas since 2004. I have tried other systems due to some class assignments I was given and nothing clicked like Vegas have. So I just want to get this straight, correct me if I am wrong here. When I get my Scarlet and record on to a CF card I will be able to click and drag the files into my Vegas workflow and start editing? AND the colors look great? This is too good to be true!

[Eki Halkka]

Thanks for the explanation. Makes sense now.

Damn, i've used Vegas since it was audio only... and never noticed those arrows: i just thought the masks suck for Cc, and i'd have to live with it / do stuff that required them in AE or similar.

So, thanks from me too ;-)

[Scott Roberts]

I tend to think my images have too much blue...Even the factory defaults are a little too purply for me. But I treat it as a new grade and don't reference REDCINE at all. I also like the fact that you can go as low as 50 ISO and there are more intervals of ISO to choose from. What does suck is the fact that you can't save presets...that for me is quite an obvious stuff up. I have 5 takes that need the same grading but now i have to write it on pen an paper....kills me.

Are you talking about saving presets in Vegas? You can save presets in Vegas, and in RedCine as well.

[Nicholas Costaras]

Are you talking about saving presets in Vegas? You can save presets in Vegas, and in RedCine as well.

I'm talking about the RED File Properties in Vegas. You can't unfortunately.

[Scott Roberts]

Ahh, sorry about that. It's the early stages of Red workflow development. Hopefully we'll have really solid workflow choices in the near future that give us most of everything we need.

[Roberto Lequeux]

Well guess what I JUST tried... :biggrin:

Took me long enough, but I hit those damn triangles and VOILA!!! Perfect! it looks fan-freaggin' tastic, no need to go to AE!!!

I got some serious grade in there now, and all in Vegas Baby!


BTW, thanks for re-viving this thread! Believe it or not I was wondering about this thread, not knowing which it was where the it was mentioned and PUF, someone brings it back from the dead and I am reminded of the triangle tip, thanks. :)

I think it has it's uses though! If you look at the shoulders of the guy in focus on the one with the bad gradient, it could use that separation, only maybe a bit more subtle... not sure. So I think I might cut it a bit more and make the smooth gradients only for the guy on the left!