Super Duper Simple Dolly for HV20?

[Tom Lowe]

I need a very simple and smooth "dolly" for doing very simple moves with the HV20 fitted with a bolt-on matte box. It needs to be really portable, for shooting up in the mountains and such.

I probably don't even need to be able to pan or tilt -- just slide along.

What I was thinking of doing is nailing down a 10-foot section of 7 and 1/2-inch "live steam" model railroad track to a 10-foot plank of wood, then using two sets of tripod legs to raise it, lower it, and level it in outdoor settings. I would have to buy two live steam axles and build a little "car" with a plate to attach the HV20. I would want the car to be rather heavy, so the whole thing would be smooth.

Does that sound like a good idea, or are there simpler solutions I could just buy? Even my solution doesn't sound all that portable, considering that I have to haul around a 10-foot plank of wood. :)

[ColinSmith]

The Hague tracking dolly does fine if the ground is not too rocky / overgrown.
If you really think you need to raise the track off the ground then their ladder dolly is interesting.... already been thinking on that for some timelapse....

Hague (http://www.b-hague.co.uk/Universal%20Tripod%20Tracking%20Dolly%20D5.htm)

[Jason Francois]

Tom. I just bought one of these and it's built amazing. It's really heavy and well built. PERFECT for the HV20.

http://dvcaddie.com/dolly.htm

I have a $80 bogen head on it that allows pan/tilt, etc.

You can build an elevatable track system or just lay track out on the floor and plunk down some sandbags. It also runs VERY smooth on granite countertops.

I bought it at EVS.

J.

[Tom Lowe]

Tom. I just bought one of these and it's built amazing. It's really heavy and well built. PERFECT for the HV20.

http://dvcaddie.com/dolly.htm

I have a $80 bogen head on it that allows pan/tilt, etc.

You can build an elevatable track system or just lay track out on the floor and plunk down some sandbags. It also runs VERY smooth on granite countertops.

I bought it at EVS.

J.

Oh, this looks pretty good. I would still need to build a "track" for it though, with PVC pipes, I guess. I want to be able to shoot anywhere from ground level up to about mid torso, and I only shoot outdoors, so the terrain is likely to be rough.

[Chris Forbes]

Kung-Fu Master. Light, Portable, self cleaning, and rock steady on uneven surfaces. :shiftyph34r:

[Jason Francois]

Oh, this looks pretty good. I would still need to build a "track" for it though, with PVC pipes, I guess. I want to be able to shoot anywhere from ground level up to about mid torso, and I only shoot outdoors, so the terrain is likely to be rough.

I have a track that I'm going to modify. It's only good for about 6' when elevated, but it can go on c-stands are light stands with Carnelli (sp?) clamps.

I used the straightest electrical conduit and cut two pieces at length and then the end pieces are cut to match the spread of the dolly. I tie all together with 90 degree screw on elbows from home depot. All of this is in the electrical dept.

I tried to make one out of aluminum, but when the aluminum came in it wasn't the right size. Apparently all the measurements for tube stock are off because of inner vs. outer diameter.

Anyway, home depot can make it work for short runs. Long runs need a middle support when elevated.

J

[Steven M. Bailey]

I've used that "live steam" rail and it is heavy to pack. Have you considered sand-bagging your camera to a skate board and using just the plank. I know this may sound like a joke, but I have it from a reliable source that it works good, and am planning on trying it myself soon.

Good luck

If you used sanded plywood you could get away with 3/4" by 1' by 8'. If this isn't smooth enough you could cover it with plexi-glass, but I don't think you'd have a problem with acx grade plywood

[Tom Lowe]

Maybe I could make something that runs down a ten-foot 2x6" plank, with four skateboard wheels riding on top of the plank and four wheels along the sides, rollercoaster-style, to stabilize it?

[Finner]

Tom if you are even a bit handy check this out. I think I would go with skateboard wheels instead of rollerblade ones but either would probably work for what you want.

http://www.digitaljuice.com/djtv/segment_detail.asp?sid=186&sortby=&page=1&kwid=0&show=all_videos

[Steven M. Bailey]

an aluminum screed plank may stay straiter for you than a 2x6.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I was going with the dolly from IndieDolly.com for now, very portable, seems pretty sweet for less than $2,500 including track. I've been in touch with them via e-mail and am going to visit the factory pretty soon, but just haven't gotten a chance yet.

[Finner]

Why would you buy that Jonathan. Just a few weeks ago you were talking about how you could build a fisher type quality dolly for $500.:biggrin:

Seriously though don't spend that much money on that dolly. Look at my post on page 1 of this thread and go to the link I posted there and watch the DIY dolly video. If you have a bit of building skills this will be real easy. Beyond that if you have slightly compitant building skills you could build 4 short angle aluminum corners rather then 2 sides like is shown in the video and on the bottom of each of the 4 build a swivel system (you may have to hire a welder for an hour or so of work to help you to do this part) and this way it would ride on corner track rather then just straight. Build a mountable dolly grip handle and attatch it to the dolly platform and for $200 or less you will have the same thing you are looking at at indie dolly.

[Tom Lowe]

I have one of those PVC dollies and have used several different versions of that basic setup. My friend has one using very large gauge PVC. It's smooth and works well, but is not portable and it's tough to level.

I think I would rather have something monorail-like, that I can raise up off the ground with telescoping legs. Maybe instead of a 2x6 I might use a 4x4, ten feet in length? Some kind of beam. I don't know if that would bow or stay solid, though. Maybe aluminum?

[Jason Francois]

I have one of those PVC dollies and have used several different versions of that basic setup. My friend has one using very large gauge PVC. It's smooth and works well, but is not portable and it's tough to level.

I think I would rather have something monorail-like, that I can raise up off the ground with telescoping legs. Maybe instead of a 2x6 I might use a 4x4, ten feet in length? Some kind of beam. I don't know if that would bow or stay solid, though. Maybe aluminum?

I was thinking maybe get an aluminum extension ladder, but only use one piece of it. The take your PVC or aluminum rods and screw them in the the ladder at the width of your dolly. Viola...a strong base that can be mounted in C-stands or light stands at any height. Fairly light. Portable enough.

I'm going to try this eventually. I think it would work very well.

[Finner]

Makes sense Tom but the thing is if you build just the wheel system in 4 parts you could mount them to a small platform and use metal electrical conduit that you could use a little wood on either ends of the conduit to hold the conduit at the right distance apart the attatch cheaper metal saw horse V's that accept 2x4's and if you have 2 2x4's for each leg that you can adjust and screw together to get the right height needed. You could obviosly not ride on this but it would allow for quick set up.

Hope that makes sense.

[Finner]

Insanityfw,

Nice idea but I think most of those ladders are built for structural strength when vertical but I would think 1 peice of leg would not have very much horizontal strength. I may be wrong but I could see it bending in the middle quite easily.

[Steven M. Bailey]

I have one of those PVC dollies and have used several different versions of that basic setup. My friend has one using very large gauge PVC. It's smooth and works well, but is not portable and it's tough to level.

I think I would rather have something monorail-like, that I can raise up off the ground with telescoping legs. Maybe instead of a 2x6 I might use a 4x4, ten feet in length? Some kind of beam. I don't know if that would bow or stay solid, though. Maybe aluminum?

You got me thinking at the beginning of this thread. I frequently use an aluminum concrete plank for screeding concrete. Typically they are sixteen foot but could be cut smaller. they are ridged and very light. If you welded two of those together in a T shape they would be incredibly strong and give you a platform to mount your four sided camera coaster to.

This setup could be given fold-up screw-jack legs and a four pulley push-pull system. It could be hand cranked or motorized with a variable speed reversible DC motor for ultra smooth controlled auto dolly. Add a Manfrotto ’s 503HDV pro fluid head and you'd have one bitch'in setup.

I have a full industrial machine shop I think I am going to make one of these soon. I'll let you know how it works out.

good luck.

[Finner]

Pics of your DIY would be cool to see as you take on the challenge Steven.

[Steven M. Bailey]

Finner,

I just finally finished downloading your link. I have dial-up. Everything takes a month to download.

Seams like a very simple afternoon project. Good link

I'll try to post some pics when I get to production. Right now I am pretty swamped with two houses under construction, but I will get to it soon.:construction:

[ColinSmith]

I was thinking maybe get an aluminum extension ladder, but only use one piece of it. The take your PVC or aluminum rods and screw them in the the ladder at the width of your dolly. Viola...a strong base that can be mounted in C-stands or light stands at any height. Fairly light. Portable enough.

I'm going to try this eventually. I think it would work very well.

If you check out my "Hague" link up top, you'll see their ladder dolly setup for some ideas.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Well Finner I'm waiting on the factory in China to get their crap together. We got 200 to be produced and they should be on the boats by late August. haha, j/k. ;)

I've already said my peace about the Fisher Dolly. I can go on a rant about that at any given moment, but I maintain my stance that a Lexus is a much more complicated piece of high-end equipment than a dolly, and therefore nobody can argue that a dolly has any reason to cost what a Lexus does. ;)

As for DIY dolly, umm... I have no skills in that realm, and I'd rather buy something that is made and tested already, plus it's not very expensive and has good transportation options, etc. If it were like $10,000 maybe I'd pay someone to build something for me but at $2,200 or so for the package it's reasonable enough. I just don't like fussing with things.

[Tom Lowe]

You got me thinking at the beginning of this thread. I frequently use an aluminum concrete plank for screeding concrete. Typically they are sixteen foot but could be cut smaller. they are ridged and very light. If you welded two of those together in a T shape they would be incredibly strong and give you a platform to mount your four sided camera coaster to.

This setup could be given fold-up screw-jack legs and a four pulley push-pull system. It could be hand cranked or motorized with a variable speed reversible DC motor for ultra smooth controlled auto dolly. Add a Manfrotto ’s 503HDV pro fluid head and you'd have one bitch'in setup.

I have a full industrial machine shop I think I am going to make one of these soon. I'll let you know how it works out.

good luck.

hey make me one please! :)

Seriously, keep us up to date on this.

[David Mullen ASC]

Not that the RED needs a super big dolly, but generally the heavier the dolly is and the stronger and heavier the track, the smoother it rolls (assuming the wheels don't get squared off by the weight).

I've used the Focus Dolly, which uses hard rubber track and fits into a duffel bag, but the really lightweight ones tend to have trouble rolling smooth over uneven terrain, partly because the tracks are not heavy and rigid enough -- but when you make track that is more rigid, it tends to be heavier and less portable. Sort of a conundrum.

http://www.egripment.com/en/ProductInfo.asp?ID=28

I suppose there are beefier PVC pipes that may be a good compromise between weight and rigidity.

When you are on uneven ground, what tends to work best are these I-beam type tracks, which are strong enough to only need to be supported at each end -- there can be air underneath most of the track, so you can dolly across the end of a swimming pool over the water, for example, as long as the ends are on the ground.

[martinnoweck]

no offense, but i heard this DIY-dolly discussion so many times and the results are most of the times not convincing, so why not rent a (mini)panther and some tracks?

for the hv 20 - have you considered the scater dolly by P&S?

regards,
martin

[martinnoweck]

I need a very simple and smooth "dolly" for doing very simple moves with the HV20 fitted with a bolt-on matte box. It needs to be really portable, for shooting up in the mountains and such.

I probably don't even need to be able to pan or tilt -- just slide along.

What I was thinking of doing is nailing down a 10-foot section of 7 and 1/2-inch "live steam" model railroad track to a 10-foot plank of wood, then using two sets of tripod legs to raise it, lower it, and level it in outdoor settings. I would have to buy two live steam axles and build a little "car" with a plate to attach the HV20. I would want the car to be rather heavy, so the whole thing would be smooth.

Does that sound like a good idea, or are there simpler solutions I could just buy? Even my solution doesn't sound all that portable, considering that I have to haul around a 10-foot plank of wood. :)

but i remember there was some kind of dolly which worked with a railsystem, you could put the railsystem together depending on your needs and the rail itself was fixed / leveled with camera tripods. one possible setup was to make dolly moves inside a car, etc.

i forgot about the name, but maybe someone remembers?

regards,
martin

[David Mullen ASC]

I've seen that system used for really difficult terrain, even by IMAX cameras.

But I'm sure that big single rail / monorail is not all that easy to hike around the mountains. Can't find a link on a monorail design but I've seen photos.

Here are some other small dolly ideas:
http://www.porta-jib.com/flex-trak.htm
http://www.rondexter.com/professional/equipment/skate_wheel_dollies.htm
http://www.microdolly.com/index3.html

[Tom Lowe]

Well, I think I have an idea on how to do this.

First step is to build a prototype out of wood. I'm going to try this with a 2X6" plank, ten feet long. (I tested it out at Home Dept depot and the plank seemed solid). I will put saw horse type legs at both ends (with telescoping legs of some kind for leveling), then build the monorail "car" using 8 skateboard wheels - four on top, four on the sides as rollercoaster-style guides.

The key will be making the side wheels adjustable so they hug the 2-inch-thick sides of the plank.

If that works, I might try building it out of a ten-foot aluminum beam (4X6"?) with metal parts for the car, which would probably be smoother and more stable.

[Steven M. Bailey]

Hey Tom

This was the basis for my rail and may be what you would want for yours

http://www.smoothroad.com/products/actools/straight.html

not your typical camera site

good luck

[GlennChan]

In my experience...

The Fisher dolly is very smooth, while the DIY approach (skateboard wheels/PVC) is not that smooth. With stabilization software in post (1-point motion tracking works), you can smooth out any uneveness in the dolly. BUT, you can't get rid of motion blur. Any sudden bumps you can't get rid of. The DIY approach works if you keep that in mind. It's probably a little better with Red, since you have extra resolution to play with. Stabilizing something in post means you might need to blow the image up a bit... which could lead to weird scaling artifacts.

[Tom Lowe]

Hey Tom

This was the basis for my rail and may be what you would want for yours

http://www.smoothroad.com/products/actools/straight.html

not your typical camera site

good luck

Hmmm... the 12-foot 2x5" might be perfect. Any idea how much that would weigh? Is this thing solid or hollow?

[Steven M. Bailey]

Hmmm... the 12-foot 2x5" might be perfect. Any idea how much that would weigh? Is this thing solid or hollow?

It is hollow 1/8 wall box tubing. The aluminum alloy is light enough to pack around a sixteen footer between your index finger and your thumb. I ordered 32 roller skate wheels and bearings from a discount supplier last night and have started drafting technical specs for my powered coaster. If my design works like it should this will be just a tad more than a diy project.

I'll try to keep updating as the parts arrive and I start machining the parts

Good luck!

[Tom Lowe]

It is hollow 1/8 wall box tubing. The aluminum alloy is light enough to pack around a sixteen footer between your index finger and your thumb. I ordered 32 roller skate wheels and bearings from a discount supplier last night and have started drafting technical specs for my powered coaster. If my design works like it should this will be just a tad more than a diy project.

I'll try to keep updating as the parts arrive and I start machining the parts

Good luck!

Whoa, you move fast. :w00t:

I wonder if skateboard wheels might be better quality and smoother? You might try taking a drive down to your local skateboard shop to compare the quality of their best wheels to your rollerskate wheels. I know from back in my skating days you can get some really great wheels and bearings.

How are you planning to power this thing? With a winch? A motor onboard the "coaster"?

[Steven M. Bailey]

Whoa, you move fast. :w00t:

I wonder if skateboard wheels might be better quality and smoother? You might try taking a drive down to your local skateboard shop to compare the quality of their best wheels to your rollerskate wheels. I know from back in my skating days you can get some really great wheels and bearings.

How are you planning to power this thing? With a winch? A motor onboard the "coaster"?

As a moderately low speed operation, on a perfectly smooth surface I don't think the roller skate wheels will give me much trouble. As a twelve wheel design embedded in two solid aluminum heads, Six will be guides while the other six provide constant pressure using coil valve springs. The tram will be powered by a 12volt motor wench mounted to one end of the rail. The drive will be a positive push pull system under idle tension to keep from kinetic coasting after a move or during deceleration. I am looking into an infinitely variable remote controller that can be set to leave your hands free to tilt and pan while it runs down the track. It could also be ran by a second party to change speed depending on what you need for the shot.

If the wheels aren't smooth enough they can be replaced after the heads are machined. I looked into the skate board wheels first, but I Thought the Skate wheels would do for a prototype.

The cool thing is that you can buy the rail from four to twenty feet :greedy:

[Tom Lowe]

Nice! If it works, you should let me talk to you about mounting a stepper motor at the end and using this thing as a dolly for DLSR timelapses. It would probably be smooth enough, depending on exactly what you are talking about for the drive train. Is this like a belt drive?

I can buy a turn-key stepper motor with a controller that syncs the stepper moves with the firing of a shutter on a DLSR, so you could do night timelapses with motion.

If the basic track and wheels work, do you think you might be willing to make me one for a decent price?

[chuck colburn]

It is hollow 1/8 wall box tubing. The aluminum alloy is light enough to pack around a sixteen footer between your index finger and your thumb. I ordered 32 roller skate wheels and bearings from a discount supplier last night and have started drafting technical specs for my powered coaster. If my design works like it should this will be just a tad more than a diy project.

I'll try to keep updating as the parts arrive and I start machining the parts

Good luck!

Steven,

For future reference this company sells decent bearings. There are alot of crappy third world bearings out there and sometimes it wiser to pay a bit more. They have an interesting section on lubrication (both wet and dry) also.

http://www.bocabearings.com/

Chuck

P.S. Do you have a machine shop?

[Steven M. Bailey]

Nice! If it works, you should let me talk to you about mounting a stepper motor at the end and using this thing as a dolly for DLSR timelapses. It would probably be smooth enough, depending on exactly what you are talking about for the drive train. Is this like a belt drive?

I can buy a turn-key stepper motor with a controller that syncs the stepper moves with the firing of a shutter on a DLSR, so you could do night timelapses with motion.

If the basic track and wheels work, do you think you might be willing to make me one for a decent price?

Definitely! If it works like it should, I actually might try to market the thing RED style.

I was thinking about driving it with a plastic coated 3/16 inch steel braided cable. I'll have to experiment with the final details based on what is available for parts and motors. I have the machinery to make any thing from watches to steam trains and have worked on both.

Tom if it works out I'll put your name on one of the proto's

It may take me a while to finish as I already have a full plate.

[Steven M. Bailey]

Steven,

For future reference this company sells decent bearings. There are alot of crappy third world bearings out there and sometimes it wiser to pay a bit more. They have an interesting section on lubrication (both wet and dry) also.

http://www.bocabearings.com/

Chuck

P.S. Do you have a machine shop?

Yes, I have a family machine shop. My uncle makes miniature live steam trains. We just made a hand pump car for the train track. Its pretty fun with the kids and good for exercise.

Thanks for the bearing link. I'll use this in the future even if not on this project. They have some good products.

[Tom Lowe]

Tom if it works out I'll put your name on one of the proto's

It may take me a while to finish as I already have a full plate.

Awesome, thanks!