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N. Keller
05-27-2009, 12:29 PM
Hi all,

I'm working on a feature where the director is limited to 1.5TB of data, but is wanting to do some very long takes and will likely go over that limit. Production would really like to stick to the limit because of post costs. The producer suggested deleting RDC folders within the RDM folder of takes that are no good, and the Data Manager was not sure if it would be a problem or not. I know that won't be a problem for us (editors) in Final Cut Pro, as we're editing with the proxies, but the idea really scares me in general, and I'm wondering what this might do when trying to conform the online on Scratch, if for example, the log file in the main folder says one thing and Scratch reads it but then encounters missing files (even if those files are never used or referred to in the offline edit EDLs). I would much rather the director just limit himself as if he was shooting 35mm but I thought I'd check.

My other question is if it is OK to add to the name of the main folder that was copied from the CF card (e.g. A091_0513HW). The Data Manager has been adding notes in parenthesis after the names (e.g. A091_0513HW (camera tests)), and I want to make sure that's OK.

Thanks,
Nayeli Garci-Crespo

Noah Kadner
05-27-2009, 12:57 PM
REALLY. BAD. IDEA. Surely someone can afford a couple of hundred dollars for another 1TB FW800 drive to lay off footage to and hold it?

Noah

N. Keller
05-27-2009, 01:14 PM
That's what I thought... Could you give me a concrete reason so I can convince them? I already told them I thought it sounded risky, but they want to know why (something besides "what if you accidentally delete the wrong file?")

I had suggested just marking the takes they want to delete "NG" and we just won't synch them so we don't have them in the way while editing. But if they go over, it means whatever amount they go over X 3 (master and two backups, which need to be separate).

What about the adding a parenthesis with notes at the end of the main folder name?

Thanks,
Nayeli

Conrad Hunziker
05-27-2009, 01:17 PM
I know that won't be a problem for us (editors) in Final Cut Pro, as we're editing with the proxies,


The proxies generated by the camera or in RedAlert, simply reference the data in those RDC folders. So by deleting the RDC folder, you are deleting what the proxy is referencing.

I understand trying to limit your post costs. There are more costs than just buying a hard drive - you'll need duplicates and archival systems, not to mention the amount of time rendering, etc. However, those are best solved by not shooting if you dont need to. Treat it like a film shoot, and you may come under that 1.5Tb limit. An extra rehearsal goes a long way toward that end.



My other question is if it is OK to add to the name of the main folder that was copied from the CF card (e.g. A091_0513HW). The Data Manager has been adding notes in parenthesis after the names (e.g. A091_0513HW (camera tests)), and I want to make sure that's OK.


Its not wise to be doing that, as your online conforms, depending on how you do it, may look for the original RDM name. If the data manager wants to keep track of things, he can add a small text file with the name of whats inside. Or the data manager can use a master text file and write what goes where.

The program I wrote, R3D Data Manager, creates project info files and places them inside each RDM folder. The file contains project information that the user enters, so he could use that to keep track of items.

N. Keller
05-27-2009, 01:53 PM
The proxies generated by the camera or in RedAlert, simply reference the data in those RDC folders. So by deleting the RDC folder, you are deleting what the proxy is referencing.

But in this case both the proxies and the R3Ds and everything would be deleted by dumping the RDC folder for that take. Where I wonder if a problem may come up is if deleting the RDC folder somehow messes up Scratch (since I don't really know how Scratch "calls" the data from the disks with the EDL from the offline).


I understand trying to limit your post costs. There are more costs than just buying a hard drive - you'll need duplicates and archival systems, not to mention the amount of time rendering, etc. However, those are best solved by not shooting if you dont need to. Treat it like a film shoot, and you may come under that 1.5Tb limit. An extra rehearsal goes a long way toward that end.

Yes, exactly re. costs. And I am SO with you about treating it like a film shoot. It seems no matter how much they try, though, it's a psychological thing. And in this case the director is thinking he CAN just delete what he doesn't want. I always try to remind them that it's not just the cost of the material (be it 35mm film or storage), but of hours of reviewing and rendering the material and SHOOTING it... the lights, the setups, actors, etc. Every extra minute of shoot time is costly.


Its not wise to be doing that, as your online conforms, depending on how you do it, may look for the original RDM name. If the data manager wants to keep track of things, he can add a small text file with the name of whats inside. Or the data manager can use a master text file and write what goes where.

The program I wrote, R3D Data Manager, creates project info files and places them inside each RDM folder. The file contains project information that the user enters, so he could use that to keep track of items.

The data manager happens to be using your program so I will suggest that to her! Thanks so much.

Nayeli

John Tissavary
05-27-2009, 02:30 PM
Scratch doesn't care about anything except the .r3d file - no other files are touched by Scratch.


cheers,

JT

N. Keller
05-27-2009, 09:59 PM
Scratch doesn't care about anything except the .r3d file - no other files are touched by Scratch.

OK, thanks!

Noah Kadner
05-27-2009, 10:11 PM
Yeah that's complete inexperience talking. How will he know which clips to delete? Say he shoots a reverse angle that he decides on the set he doesn't want and deletes. Then he gets into the editing room months later and realizes that a scene cannot be completed without that shot and it's either lose the scene or reshoot that angle.

Surely even the lowest budget feature in the world has another $300 to spend on another hard drive rather than gather together a crew to reshoot a whole new day of production just for that one shot that was carelessly deleted. No director in the world is good enough to be able to just know on the set which shots can be deleted without seeing them in the context of an edit.

Also, all the time wasted carefully plowing through footage on set rather than just shooting another take or progressing to the next setup will also eclipse the savings of one hard drive. I'd say that would happen within the first day of shooting...

So if that's the sort of mentality that prevails- that anything over 1.5 TB of storage is too expensive and it's wiser to just delete takes on the fly- I'd bail from that production. It's the baby, mom, dad and the grandparents being thrown out with the bathwater. :couch:

Noah

N. Keller
05-28-2009, 12:24 PM
Yeah that's complete inexperience talking. How will he know which clips to delete? Say he shoots a reverse angle that he decides on the set he doesn't want and deletes. Then he gets into the editing room months later and realizes that a scene cannot be completed without that shot and it's either lose the scene or reshoot that angle.

Yes, this is his first feature, which explains the desire to shoot and shoot and shoot until he gets it perfect (I'm sure it will happen to me if I'm ever lucky enough to shoot my first feature, too).

I think he's thinking more along the lines of deleting bad takes (he gave me the example of one where the light blew in the middle of the shot). But if it's more than that... forget deleting an entire angle. Even deleting one take of several you thought you didn't like that day... it will probably stick in your memory and maybe you'll decide a month down the line that particular expression on the actor's face was what you really wanted... like you say, you don't know until you edit.

As an editor I constantly find that the director will be SURE that there was this or that take that simply does not exist... perhaps it was a rehearsal, perhaps they only think they remember it. Imagine if the take really HAD existed but they had deleted it, but just don't remember they deleted it?? I already spend enough time combing through every take with directors to prove to them what they remember is not there.


It's the baby, mom, dad and the grandparents being thrown out with the bathwater.

Heh heh....

Nayeli

Jonas Bendsen
08-19-2009, 06:29 PM
I came across this thread with similar questions not because of budget or space restrictions, but because of issues with associating files...

We're editing our feature in Premiere (on a PC). All the syncing was done in Final Cut (on a Mac). When importing the Final Cut XML files into Premiere, Premiere of course needs to know where all the files are. Since the RED puts every shot in its own folder, you have to direct Premiere to each file.

If all the files were in one folder (or at least fewer folders), it would take a lot less time to associate the thousands of clips that make up a feature film.

Can you put the .r3d files into a day folder (vs. a shot folder). I assume there is data that these files access in each RDM or RDC folder, but can you just dump those data files in the "master" folder with them or do they have to each be in their own separate folder?

Just checking. I assume people are gonna jump down my throat with the "bad idea" comments, and say that I should just put in the time associating files, but I want to make sure that I absolutely have to before I go through that several day process.

Thanks!