Regarding the RED-Mini: feature request

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

I read a few weeks ago that you are preparing a pocket professional camera.

I am a video enthusiast (not a professional: http://eugenia.blogsome.com/2007/07/02/the-zoo/ ), but I would sell my Canon HDV camcorder on the spot for a professional AVHCD camcorder in a similar price range that gives me what I want most: *some* background blur. You see, the biggest difference in the "look", between the expensive pro cameras and the "Indie/consumer" cameras (including the HVX/DVX series) is the contrast (which can be fixed with the appropriate lense/filter) and the background blur (which would require somewhat expensive adapters/lenses).

In order to get some considerable background blur, you need a big sensor size. Creating big sensors means more manufacturing problems which can mean a higher price, but that's ok. Speaking for myself, a $999 pocket camera that has an acceptable lense (for the price) but big sensor, AVHCD support recording 720 (24/30p) clips in normal CompactFlash HC format would not only "do the job", but it would be perfect for a particular niche market who are after the "cine look" on a budget. I am not even asking for 1080i or 1080p or crazy features. 720p is good enough if that's important to keep the price down, as long as the visual quality is good enough and it offers the "cine look" (complete with contrast and background blur).

The downside of this design is that there is no zoom capabilities to speak of. It is an optics limitation by using a larger sensor, so the zoom wouldn't be more than 3x. But that's ok. Except if you are an ultra-modern action director with extra needs, you would never zoom more than 3x in a movie (at least, not frequently enough). Sure, the inability of having a large optical zoom would hurt "family" sales, but I am talking about a director's toy here, not families...

The kind of product I am suggesting here exists in the digital camera world, it's the Sony DSC-R1:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Sony/sony_dscr1.asp
It's a failed product, let me clear this up, right off the bat. But it's a failed product because for the price it was selling, users would just get a real DSLR with the appropriate lenses instead. But in the video world, things are different. Users are buying $5000 cameras and then they have to shell an extra $1000 for 35mm adapters+lenses usually to get the "cine look". While what I am proposing here would offer the cine-look for $1000 -- for those who want it.

Of course, I might be completely off the mark with this comment just because RED might be preparing a pocket camcorder with more capabilities in the price range of $5000. But even if they do so, maybe a "lite" 720p product as I suggested above could fill a niche if it was to be produced. The individual bits of technology for my idea already exists, it's just that everyone is afraid of failure I guess because it's not a traditional product with traditional set of features (in fact, Sony did fail with their equivalent digicam).

Opinions?

[Eugene]

The Red team is super secretive about any specs for the pro pocket cam.
Don't expect them to say much of anything about it.
I like the way you think, except for the desire to have AVHCD. AVHCD isn't good for editing. Expect some kind of Red code that doesn't compress via interframes. I am just guessing that the RED camera will have to have specs as good as the HV20, 1080p at 24fps. I am guessing it will store data to the same CF cards that Red will make for the RED One.
There are already 720p pocket cameras that record to SD cards. I don't think they are that great. I am going to get the Canon TX1 as a toy to play with. It is the only pocket cam that seems any good from what I have read.

http://www.macworld.com/weblogs/editors/2007/06/tapeless/index.php
Read the article above if you own a Mac. You can now use AVHCD with the latest version of Final Cut Pro.

You have to watch this video of a camera testing diva. I like the end where she tests a Sanyo water proof camera by flushing it down the toilet.
http://blip.tv/file/267227/
http://www.sanyodigital.com/e1.aspx
It records 640x480, not HD. But it could be a nice toy to take to the beach.

[Cory Mitchell]

In my opinion to make it professional it would at least need to record (at least) 1080p. (There's already a bunch of products that do 1080i (and below)). The other thing is that it would have to record to a codec that is frame independent (redcode seems to fill the bill). Those are my opinions.

More than anything I also await for more info on the pocket-Red.

visionmind

[Justin Anderson]

don't forget, laser leveler.
Laser leveler.

[chuck colburn]

Hi Eugenia,
Yeah it's a shame about the DSC-R1 failing in the market place. I followed it closely and was very impressed. I'll still buy one when I can, as the optical quality and focal length range would do just fine for my use. Right now I'm using a Kodak Z650 6.1mp with a 10x Schneider designed zoom that I'm quite happy with. Some of my camera snob friends made comments to the effect of "How could you by a Kodak Camera"? I have no problem with the cameras sold by the Great Yellow Father. Kodak has been on the fore front of digital sensors right from the start.

Chuck

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

>AVHCD isn't good for editing

I know, but it won't require tapes to work with like HDV does. You see, if such a product was to exist, they would possibly mostly serve as "toys/tests" for the pro directors and as "ok" cameras for the indie/enthusiast directors. For that reason, the camcorder must be small and most of all "convenient", and not having to deal with a tape can help a lot. AVHCD does not have as good quality as HDV does, but it's good enough for the purpose of such a supposed product IMHO.

>There are already 720p pocket cameras that record to SD cards

Problem is, these cameras are all jokes -- including Canon's $400 such camera. These cameras are just digicams and they record motion-jpeg usually, at needlessly high bit-rates. Plus, they use a normal digicam sensor/lense rather than anything more serious, they have no good controls or mic-input etc.

>In my opinion to make it professional it would at least need to record (at least) 1080p.

I was discussing the issue with my husband over dinner tonight (he has studied optics & engineering) and he indeed said that it won't be much more difficult to go all the way to 1080p if you have the electronics that already do 720p. I merely suggested 720p because IF that helps bringing down the price significantly, might be a good route to go to. I mean, as an indie/enthusiast director, I don't think you need much more than that (mostly because your main medium would be YouTube and a DVD quality version), and it's good/fast enough for rough edits/cuts for a pro director or director of photography who would just "test things out" before an actual shoot.

[David Mullen ASC]

I guess the question is the size of the sensor and whether people want the Mini-RED to be semi-compatible with RED ONE, in other words, do they want to share the same lenses on both cameras, would they want or live with a Super-16 / 2/3" size sensor with the attendant change in depth of field / field of view compared to the same lens on the RED ONE, etc.

Or would they want something more in size and design like a point-n-shoot digital still camera, 4K / 2K / HD resolution but small sensor and permantly-mounted mini zoom?

[Eugene]

your main medium would be YouTube and a DVD quality version
OUCH! That is where I am at now with my prosumer SD cam. I want to make the leap to 2K and Blu-ray. I hope the RED pocket cam can do 2K. I don't care about price as long as it costs under $5,000.

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

Personally, I just want something that has a reasonably good all-around lense (no need for interchangeable lenses, even if that would be nice), small body size, big sensor size, good contrast, 2-4x optical zoom, and 720p (or 1080p if possible) AVHCD (or on any other reasonably well-encoded MPEG4 format), on CompactFlash HC or SDHC cards.

I don't need compatibility with the RED One/lenses, because that probably would make the size of the device really big. I am thinking of the device as a prosumer-looking camcorder BUT with "cine" features/look. A device that would attract artists and directors on-the-go, rather than families or even news TV crews (I am mentioning this because a TV channel in Germany already equipped their reporters with a... Canon HV20).

[Eugene]

a TV channel in Germany already equipped their reporters with a... Canon HV20

I wonder if Canon regrets making the HV20 too good?

[David Mullen ASC]

It's hard to put a large 35mm-sized sensor into a prosumer-sized camera (which normally use 1/3" sensors) and put a tiny zoom on it that can cover a sensor area that large. That's why I was wondering if people would live with a sensor that was half the size of the RED ONE sensor, basically similar to a 2/3" sensor in size, as a compromise, halfway in size between 1/3" and 35mm.

[Zack Birlew]

Well, the best bet would be to make something super small 2K camera with a PL mount like the Silicon Imaging SI-2K except, you know.... RED!

I think what is being forgotten here is that AVCHD, HDV, and other compressed fomats are massive steps backwards compared to the uncompressed RAW formats that the RED provides. By going with RAW, you'll get much better 720p, 1080p and beyond in image quality and especially when it comes to color space. Also, nobody said you couldn't record straight to inexpensive compact flash cards natively and the best part is that you can encode to any format you want in REDCINE.

So, the idea of going away from what RED is and to not even be compatible to RED wouldn't ideally be what anyone would want in my opinion.

[Justin Anderson]

Well, the best bet would be to make something super small 2K camera with a PL mount like the Silicon Imaging SI-2K except, you know.... RED!

I think what is being forgotten here is that AVCHD, HDV, and other compressed fomats are massive steps backwards compared to the uncompressed RAW formats that the RED provides. By going with RAW, you'll get much better 720p, 1080p and beyond in image quality and especially when it comes to color space. Also, nobody said you couldn't record straight to inexpensive compact flash cards natively and the best part is that you can encode to any format you want in REDCINE.

So, the idea of going away from what RED is and to not even be compatible to RED wouldn't ideally be what anyone would want in my opinion.

agreed.

[Álex Montoya]

I own a DSC-R1. I got it for 500 € and the quality of the pictures is pretty impressive.

[Evin Grant]

What about a C mount 2/3" camera? Similar to the way old Bolex cameras used to work. I'm sure that a standard 16mm/ 2/3" CMOS capable of 2K and Redcode Raw to CF cards would be possible in a compact design. Then you could get old Switars or possibly Red would make a series of C mount optics designed for the 2K chip. They could be very small and of a high enough optical quality to please pros. I think Redcode Raw is a must though.

Kinda like this, but Redified.
http://www.kolumbus.fi/puistot/Col_pic/BolD8L.jpg

[ZzzZZz...]

I would go for big fat 35mm sensor, but only 720p redcode raw resolution . Extreme lowlight perfomance, extremely low noise and good dynamic range. Still include all the different lens options and two cf slots for continous shooting.
The zoomrange is really not a problem... i. e The 18-200 nikon zoom lense would be a 27-300 (35mm still camera equi.) and its cheap as hell with VR!

60 fps would off course be an awesome additional feature.

[Stephen Gentle]

Well, here are my thoughts:

I hope that this camera will be 2K or 1080p - maybe with a super16 size sensor. It will record 24p, and probably up to 30p. Maybe higher (would be very nice to be able to record 60p...)

I think it's almost certain that it will be able to record to Compact Flash, and it would be great if it was compatible with RED-RAM and RED-DRIVE. It will probably use REDCODE RAW or maybe REDCODE RGB.

When they say professional, this sounds (to me at least) that they are implying that it will have interchangeable lenses - probably with a PL mount (plus F mount etc.), and that it will have full manual controls.

I wonder if there will be a flip out LCD on this one?

Price? I'm thinking (and hoping) that it will around 8 to 12 thousand dollars.

[Stephen Gentle]

Just some other things:


I am thinking of the device as a prosumer-looking camcorder BUT with "cine" features/look.

I doubt that RED would put out any product that was prosumer-looking! But we can be pretty sure that it will have the features (they have emphasized the professional nature of the camera) and the look of cinema cameras (although probably a little deeper DOF, if it has a smaller sensor).


I am guessing it will store data to the same CF cards that Red will make for the RED One.

RED aren't making CF cards, are they?

[Justin Anderson]

I think that the goal for the RED-Mini should be as a replacement or substitute for a Super16 camera.
Like the DVX was for many a standard in prosumer video, the RED-Mini is poised to become a standard for the Super16 format at 2K resolution.

[ZzzZZz...]

If a compact formfactor is of essence i have a hard time seeing super16mm lenses in pl mount fit in there.
For me it is either 35mm or fixed lense. Graeme has repeated many times, that what you gain by lowering the chip size simply just increases the price of quality glass. A super16mm or 2/3" fujinon lense of good quality cost the same as a Red One, now guess what i would rather buy... he he

Remember that the red one is already pretty small, and since the new canon still cameras a firing 10 fps on a 35mm sensor with huge resolution, I think david might be overestimating the difficulty of fitting a 35mm sensor in a compact design....

[Jeremy Hughes]

If RED can really bring the price down on 4K camera, they can do it again with a 1080p or 2K camera.

People were just getting to shoot 2K movies on wider spread when RED announced their camera. So why not 2K when lower enders are shooting on 1080p now?

RAW would be even easier than RGB. REDCODE RAW at higher compression ratios seems good to me.

[Steve Gibby]

Background and newsbreak links
On 4/16/07, at the opening of NAB, I was very fortunate to be the very first journalist to break the news on all five of RED’s announcements: the new RED cine lenses (18-50 zoom, primes), the Peter Jackson "Crossing the Line" production, the Professional Pocket Camera, RED 4k displays, and RED 4k projectors.

I interviewed Ted Schiliwitz at 9:05am on 4/16 at the RED NAB tent, and he gave me the first news about the Professional Pocket Camera, and RED 4k displays and projectors. Shortly after that I broke that news via a post on the Studio Daily blog, here on RED User, and subsequently in my RED at NAB, Part 2 article on the Studio Daily web site that day.

Timeline of my publishing & posting on NAB 2007 opening day:

RED @ NAB, Part 1 (Studio Daily web site, live online at 9am Pacific Time, 4/16/07)
http://www.studiodaily.com/main/news/7959.html

Studio Daily Blog entry, 4/16/07, 9:41am Pacific Time, breaking news from Ted Schilowitz interview: http://www.studiodaily.com/blog/

RED User forum entry, 4/16/07, 9:51am Pacific Time, breaking news to RED User about my interview with Ted Schilowitz: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1560

RED @ NAB, Part 2 (Studio Daily web site, posted mid-day on 4/16/07)
http://www.studiodaily.com/main/news/7981.html

-----------------------------------

Name: “Professional Pocket Camera” – not “RED Mini”
I think we should get the name of the announced camera correct – as Ted named it in my news breaking interview with him. If you read what I reported in the first newsbreak of the new camera, in my Studio Daily blog entry, I stated: “ A new Professional Pocket Camera (no other details yet)”

If you read what was published shortly after that, on the same day, in my “RED @ NAB, Part 2” article in Studio Daily, I reported: “RED is developing a Professional Pocket Camera – a miniature camera. Ted couldn’t give me any further details on it, but said there would be more info released in the coming weeks.”

Since the time I broke that news, the term RED Mini has been coined by some. I have to assume that name grew out of my reporting Ted’s descriptive phrase about the camera of “a miniature camera”. The correct name of the camera, as stated by Ted and reported by me, is “Professional Pocket Camera”. An acronym of PPC would fit, but “RED Mini” isn’t the camera’s name.

To my knowledge, since that opening day of NAB, nobody from RED Team has officially stated any more definitive information about the Professional Pocket Camera.

Keeping the above in mind, let me reiterate what I reported: Ted said that RED would be developing a "Professional Pocket Camera". He gave no other details and no hints as to RED's design intentions for the camera, it's size, resolution, function, market, etc. Everything that has been posted about the Professional Pocket Camera on any forum since the news broke, is merely conjecture by interested individuals - but that's cool, that's the function of forums.

Since we only have the name of the new camera to go on, the words “Professional” and “Pocket” hold some definite clues. IMO a professional camera needs to have pro-level features and capabilities. Ted didn’t say “Prosumer Pocket Camera”. What those professional features end up being will remain to be seen. The word “Pocket” is also a huge clue. To me, that implies that this professional camera will fit in a pocket of some kind, right? What size pocket is anyone’s guess at this point, but I think “Pocket” implies that it will not be as big as RED One, which certainly won’t fit in any pocket.

I think a PPC is a great next camera move for RED - even though I don't have the foggiest idea of the parameters and tech specs RED is considering for the camera. IMO, in the development process for RED One, RED has shown that they have their finger on the pulse of the motion media industry. IMO RED is listening. The threads that have been started about the PPC have some very cool feature requests, and I think many of the suggestions have good merit.

RED has only officially stated what I reported on 4/16 - that they are developing a Professional Pocket Camera (exact words). I'm sure they're listening, I think many of the feature requests are logical ones, and I'm also sure RED will say more about the PPC when they feel the time is right.

For my production business, I'll be interested in hearing more about the PPC. If the PPC can dovetail with my RED One cameras for fieldwork in related genres and sub-genres, I'll take a real close look at it.

[Mark A. Beal]

The word “Pocket” is also a huge clue. To me, that implies that this professional camera will fit in a pocket of some kind, right? What size pocket is anyone’s guess at this point, but I think “Pocket” implies that it will not be as big as RED One, which certainly won’t fit in any pocket.


Just how literally they take the "pocket" designation is the big question. What I'm really hoping for is something akin to an A-minima, but of course that's going to require a pretty big pocket.

[David Mullen ASC]

I think we are seeing here different ideas of what people want in a smaller camera. For some, they basically want what would be the RED ONE with the rear two-thirds chopped off, basically the 4K 35mm sensor and a small RED zoom in front, something probably akin in size to a DSLR.

Other people see something like a very small palmcorder with a very small zoom lens, but maybe 4K in order to be different enough from a prosumer HD camcorder.

Other people would be fine with just 720P/1080P but want the larger 35mm sensor, but then you're back to the RED zoom and something around the size of a DSLR (though you don't need the bulk caused by a mirror shutter & viewfinder).

And none of these would fit into any but the largest of pockets...

I think, for size reasons, you have to work around the size of the optics needed for the size of the sensor desired, i.e. what's the smallest zoom lens possible for a 35mm cine frame sized sensor (half the size of a 35mm still camera sensor)?

In the point-and-shoot digital still camera world, not DSLR's, what's the largest sensor being used? Are any of them the same size as the ones in a DSLR? I notice my Canon PowerShot A620 has a 7.3-29.2mm zoom lens, which suggests to me that the 7MP sensor inside must be half the size of a DSLR sensor. So would the Pocket Red be something like that, but capable of 24 fps or higher?

[Steve Gibby]

Just how literally they take the "pocket" designation is the big question.

A very good point...we don't know how literal RED is speaking when they say "Pocket". In reading about military history, there was a class of battleships that were slightly smaller than the normal ones that were categorized in slang terms as "pocket battleships". They obviously wouldn't fit in any pocket, but the "pocket" designation simply meant that they were smaller than a normal battleship.

Until RED explains their thinking a bit further we won't know exactly what they mean by "pocket". The cool thing is that the many suggestions from interested parties in the months ahead will probably play a big part in the eventual specs and parameters of the PPC - the same as they have with RED One.

[Steve Gibby]

All good observations David...

I think RED has recognized an unfilled or under-filled niche in the motion media industry somewhere below the service floor of RED One - and intends to fill that niche with the PPC. Since RED developed RED One with extensive end user input, I would expect them to approach the development of the PPC in the same way. In view of that, I'd say to everyone: "Keep the PPC suggestions coming!". IMO the PPC will end up being a combination of what RED perceives as a market opportunity, coupled with, and defined by the features that a convergent motion media industry asks for, before and during the development process. That's been the pattern of RED One development...

I have my own set of capabilities, features and ergonomics I'd like to see in the PPC, some of which you touched on in your post, but I'm still thinking about what I'd like to see in the camera...

[Craig Schober]

i understand your intention to steer the forum away from misinformation and speculation but unfortunately red hasn't given us any other options. until i get some more specifications, this camera will be a red-mini to me. professional pocket camera is not only a horrible "name" but a confusing (power pc) acronym and counter intuitive when speaking of any current products except a dslr. right now all names are appropriate because you don't know any more about the specs than anyone throwing names out there.

when red throws out a few crumbs of info initiating wild speculation, it's only natural that we get a few different camps each wanting something small and powerful. but that's what makes this forum interesting and i'm sure red is watching and taking notes.

but i'll play along...how about a dslr, literally.

the bottleneck in redone isn't the recording medium but rather the processing power. more processing power will give much needed higher frame rates and quicker redcode processing. and processing power is the only thing that can be miniturized and at the same time made more powerful (within this product cycle) all with little or no added expense (moore's law). so all the electronics are shrunk down, the recording medium is small solid state and the lens can be still be removable 35mm. put a huge sensor in there for stills and scale it to 2k or even 4k for 24fps, 30fps, 60fps and 120fps. maybe apply a little more compression if needed. i would take more compression if it would get me 250fps.

it wouldn't be great "video/digital cinema camera" but it would literally be a professional pocket camera that directors, dps and even hobbyists who already have 35mm glass would be interested in for blocking rehearsals, stunt cams, location scouts and all around travelling without having to deal with heavy and expensive pro equipment.

i would guess a $4500 pricepoint for all this. lens not included but red would be happy to sell you a new set of lenses made for this cam. anyway, they could also market to still photographers and maybe include an hdr mode for stills.

[Kevin Halverson]

Well, if everyone is voicing their wish list, I would want the 'PPC' to be a S16 sized sensor array with 2k+ receptors and the same frame rate capabilities as the Red One. I would prefer a range of lens mounts but at a minimum a PL. I would prefer that it not be a truncated Red One and that it not have a S35 sized array, what I want is the digital equivalent of a S16 film body.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

To me, and this is of course just speculation, "pocket camera" implies compact and easy to use. It's going to have one or two options for zoom lenses. It's going to have autofocus... It's going to be the ultimate ENG, run-n-gun, workhorse camera for a single operator.

I don't know if it will be a full 4K camera with a S35mm sensor... I kinda doubt that. My gut feeling is it will have a 2/3" or S16mm size sensor and will shoot 2K REDCODE RAW to FLASH media. Probably CF or 1.8" SSD.

[chuck colburn]

I like mechanical design. Form following function etc. So I'll leave the electronic wish list to others as that is out of my league. What I envision the PPC as is something similar to the modular nature of medium format cameras. Take the Hasselblad for example. A basic camera body but with a small but high rez screen mounted on top ala the ground glass system used on these type cameras. That way one could view from the top for low angle shots but also mount different optical eyepieces for other configurations. The film magazine would be replaced with different types of quick change media storage (micro drives, chips or whatever is the next greatest thing to come along). Battery packs that intergrate into the base of the camera and also serve as quick release plates for tripod mounting. Removeable hand grips etc. And since the sensor area is going to be smaller then the 2 1/4" square film format, the whole camera would be scaled down in physical size. I would think an interchangable lens mount should be retained even if new glass had to be developed for the use. I can see the use of Leica or Contax rangefinder lenses as viable.

[Steve Gibby]

i understand your intention to steer the forum away from misinformation and speculation but unfortunately red hasn't given us any other options. until i get some more specifications, this camera will be a red-mini to me. professional pocket camera is not only a horrible "name" but a confusing (power pc) acronym and counter intuitive when speaking of any current products except a dslr. right now all names are appropriate because you don't know any more about the specs than anyone throwing names out there.

The facts I illustrated and linked to in my post were:

1) RED calls their new camera a "Professional Pocket Camera", not a RED Mini, or any other name

2) I reported accurately the name of the new camera when I broke the news about it on 4/16/07

So based on your post, you don't like the name that RED has given their camera - Professional Pocket Camera - and you intend to call it whatever you'd personally like. Be my guest on that, call it what you'd like, but I'll continue to refer to it by the name the maker of the camera has named it. The name of the camera isn't in question, the makers have clearly named it, it's the specs of the camera that have not been defined.

[pat@hpnc.com]

Well lets face it until Red gives out some more news there is going to be a LOT of speculation. And lots of bad information etc. Thats what fills the gap in accurate information. And while it clutters the forum some it does not really hut anthing.

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

Guys, guys... relax.

My original post was simply a thought I had in my mind about what *I* wanted from a small camera. This doesn't mean that the name I used, or the features I mentioned would be what RED is going to do or not.

[Finner]

I like to call it my red pocket mini buddy. Would you like to reach into my pocket and get it? I promise it is in there and not just a pocket with the inner lineing cut away. Any takers?

[Eugene]

you don't like the name that RED has given their camera - Professional Pocket Camera - and you intend to call it whatever you'd personally like. Be my guest

Obviously it is going to be called Red Two. There is no way Red is going to name their camera Professional Pocket Camera.


I can see the use of Leica or Contax rangefinder lenses as viable.

It would be logical to assume RED will use the Mysterium CMOS in the PPC. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. To make the camera pocketable RED will probably have to use 35mm rangefinder lenses. (I am for a built in 10x auto focus zoom lens, but I think most people want interchangable lenses, and RED is going to make what most people want.)
Something like the zoom used on the old film using Contax G2 would be compact yet professional. RED isn't going to use an off the shelf lens rangefinder lens, but there lens will be much more like a rangefinder in size than a 35mm SLR lens. I would guess that RED would come out with a zoom lens first. The whole idea behind the PPC is its small size. Carrying around a whole set of prime lenses wouldn't make sense. A 50mm equivalant prime might make sense for someone that wants a fast lens and absolutely hates zooms.
http://www.photographyreview.com/channels/photographyreview/images/products/product_84791.jpg


It's going to have autofocus

I hope so.


it will have a 2/3" or S16mm size sensor
It is cheaper to use the Mysterium than to develop a 2/3 sensor.


will shoot 2K REDCODE RAW to FLASH media. Probably CF

I agree


until i get some more specifications, this camera will be a red-mini to me.

Me too. I know it isn't going to be a shrunk down Red One. If they want us to stop calling it the Red Mini, then Red should tell us to stop. Red Mini is cooler than Red Two, but me thinks they will call it Red Two. PPC is a lame name.


i would guess a $4500 pricepoint

Sounds good. The target customer should be everyone that owns a copy of Final Cut Pro. I have FCP and a G4 Mac. When the time comes, I will probably upgrade to a Mac book pro when they make on that has a Blu-ray burner in it. About a million people have FCP and a Mac. FCP users can afford about $5,000 bucks for a system. No one is going to rent the PPC as far as I can see. PPC is a camera you carry with you 24/7, not a camera you rent for a job. If Red keeps the price right, they could easily sell a million. What FCP user wouldn't want to upgrade to the PPC. Not many FCP users can afford or want to part with thirty grand for a RED ONE, even if it is the most bad ass camera ever. I'd rather have a new car.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

It is cheaper to use the Mysterium than to develop a 2/3 sensor.

Or would they just fab Mysterium sensors in a smaller size with the same pixel density? Not reinventing the wheel, but create a 2K S16mm sized Mysterium. Should be a lot cheaper to produce due to smaller chip size - more chips per wafer and that usually translates to higher percentages of successful yields. Using a smaller version of the existing design could prove to be extremely cost-effective and much cheaper to produce than the S35mm Mysterium.


Me too. I know it isn't going to be a shrunk down Red One. If they want us to stop calling it the Red Mini, then Red should tell us to stop. Red Mini is cooler than Red Two, but me thinks they will call it Red Two. PPC is a lame name.

Who knows what they'll call it. They may very well call it the "RED Pro Pocket Camera" and that isn't going to matter one way or another. RED doesn't care what we all call it or what we speculate about. They're not going to confirm, deny, or dictate anything we talk about in relation to it at this point. When they're ready for us to know more, they will spill the beans.

[pat@hpnc.com]

Could they not just use a standard 35mm still camera mount? Nikon or Canan etc? That seems to be what most people in the price range want. Not a new mount with a few lenses for it.

[chuck colburn]

Still camera lens mounts are fine so are cine type mounts although the "C" mount might not make sense even if the camera is only a 2K version as most "C" mounted lenses won't cover the format. What I think makes good sense is to keep the basic front plate (sometimes refered to as the standard) as shallow as possible to allow as many different type mounts as possible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lens_mounts

[Bruce Allen]

Still camera lens mounts are fine so are cine type mounts although the "C" mount might not make sense even if the camera is only a 2K version as most "C" mounted lenses won't cover the format. What I think makes good sense is to keep the basic front plate (sometimes refered to as the standard) as shallow as possible to allow as many different type mounts as possible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lens_mounts

That is totally sensible, Chuck, I hope they go that way. Matter of fact, I hope they just, you know, just tell us. Surely they must have decided on this one way or the other by now?

Does anyone know if there's a way to get email alerts if Jannard or someone posts an announcement? I tried subscribing to threads on the Mini but then I just get updates on everyone's heated debate speculating about lens mounts. And then the threads keep dying and new ones starting, all about the same thing, over and over again. It's like some kind of crazy wheel of fortune. I realized that I am spending way too much time trawling through threads on reduser just because I like the company and want to know about what they're up to.

Yes, I've learned a ton from everyone, but things like this Red Mini / Red Pocket Pro camera thread don't seem to do much. There have been many threads on this topic, begging for simple info, so far with zero return. Anyway, I'm quitting the forums for a little bit (except to deliver on HV20 test promises). If Jannard posts something on page 10 finally revealing what their decision on lenses for the Red PPC / Mini / Two / WHATEVER IT IS CALLED, can someone please PM or email me? I will send you beer.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Poi Boy]

For me, as I've said before, It has to be 4K and I would be very surprised if they went to a totally different sensor.
Aloha
-A

[Milan Nikolic]

My wish list for RED Professional Pocket Camera:
- really pocketable size
- fast automatic focus
- optical stabilization lens
- FC or SD cards
- 2K S16mm sized Mysterium
- 10 x built in zoom lens
- HDMI
- mini XLR auxiliary mic
- earphone out
- looks of consumer camera (like Canon HV 10) for less visible shutting in public - very important for my kind of documentary work.
It should be ready for shutting in seconds right out of the pocket but provide high quality images in 2K or, at least, 1080p.

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

Maybe we should make a different subforum for this Minicamera?
On one side, I think it's pretty sure this is coming, so I think, when it will have its own users, it's better to seperate this.
On the other hand, I realize it's probably much too early for this, and we should first see what kind of camera it is, before we dedicate a subforum to it. Anyhow, it's a suggestion to the moderators.

[Laco Zamba]

And my suggestion for RED team is to finish RED ONE first :)

[Eugene]

I realized that I am spending way too much time trawling through threads on reduser

Me too. I need to go cold turky on this RED addiction. I'll be taking a break from this forum untill after the RED ONE ships, because there will probably not be any PPC updates untill then.


If Jannard posts something on ...... the Red PPC / Mini / Two / WHATEVER IT IS CALLED, can someone please PM or email me

That is a real good idea. I would like it if Jarred sends me an e-mail when there is news on the PPC. Every once and a while I get an e-mail from Jarred and DVXuser. He could do the same for REDuser. That would be great. I want to know anything about the PPC as soon as it happens, but I can't be on this forum every day.

[OwenR]

Red 0.5 or what ever its called.

Id like it to

1) 2k

2) Record to tape less format ie Hard Drive or Cards etc

3) Have a decent zoom fixed lense...

4) Price wise lets compete withHVX200 & Z1E etc...

5) to be able to change lenses would probably add significantly to the price...
and then wed buy Red One!

[liquidigital]

Sigma DP1 has an APS/DSLR size sensor in a compact body. Where they messed up was with an f4. Just not fast enough for my tastes. But I really can't imagine what a "professional pocket cam" would look like or entail. Anyone have an idea when they're going to release more info?

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0703/07030807sigmadp1.asp

[deepcode]

Hello forum, this is my first post - I hope you all doing well with you reds :)
I hope I can join the club soon with the red mini .. sorry, PPC ;) - because the big one is to big for me.

Here my wishlist (I have postet this on dvinfo.net, too):

- small, but not too small - lightwight, easy to carry, but big and heavy enough to operate professionally. Maybe a bit bigger then a Sony A1, but smaller then a V1 / FX7.
- please 2/3´´ or aps sensors and a fast zoom glass with 1.2 or 1.4 (it just needs this aperture on smaller focal lengts) to get a small DOF even on indoor shots and high sensivity on low light.
- when use a fixed lens, set the focus to archive a good wide angle (~28mm equivalent) and do a automatic lens protection.
- 2 k resolution is enough, better less pixels and therefore more sensivity!
- A universal storage interface / adapter for different media, which can be updated in future. So shot to CF, SD or whatever cards today, and maybe to liquid holographic crystals tomorrow .. ;)
- mechanical locked zoom ring, autofocus, push focus, mechanical locked focus ring, aperture without steps
- maybe a integrated follow focus ring ?
- OIS
- XLR audio inputs (or some kind of symmetrical audio inputs via adaptor)
- manual and automatic sound level. 4 independent audio channels with 20 or 24 bit and a brickwall limiter would be great!
- free selectable framerate between days interval up to 100 fps or even more, if possible. Please stop this awful "US/EU different version" thing of other companies! Let the user decide if he wants to shoot 24,25,30 or custom fps
- free, independent selectable shutter
- free, customizable cinegamma and color settings
- customizable shot transitions
- HDMI output (10 or more bit uncompressed, selectable raw or with Color/Gamma/DSP processing)
- standard Li batteries from Sony or Panasonic
- mechanical control elements for all important things (gain, shutter etc.), some customizable buttons (e.g. for setup selection)
- very bright LCD with overscan mode
- maybe integrated LED ringlight with (auto)adjustable color temp and brightness
- pre-recording feature: the user can set the cam into a continuous record mode, which stores the last seconds (customizable). Very valuable when you wait for a sudden action, e.g. ligthning, animals, a geysir, ...
- LANC control
- basic, but good working automatic features for point and shoot operation (focus, aperture).
- full external control interface via Ethernet or USB for external Software

price up to 5000 - 6000 EUR (~7500 USD) would be o.k. for me. This is the camera I woud buy once in my life .. :)

:: www.deepcode1.com ::
sounds, vision, interaction

[Priyesh P.]

My list:
Since it's called PROFESSIONAL pocket camera it's never going to have a fixed lens, so an interchangeble lens (PL-mount) is a given.
No autofocus
super35mm or super16mm sized sensor with 2K (4K?)
Overall I'm speculating on something like the Aaton A-minima, a fantastic tool that nicely accompanies "bigger" cameras.

[deepcode]

this is a very short list .. ;)

the best would be interchangable AND autofocus. But I guess this would rise the price. Maybe its possible to integrate this features into the glass, like canon does with the OIS. For me it´s not the "professional" criteria to have interchangable lenses, as long as the fixed glass has top quality and covers the range I need. Even a Z1 is professional, altough lots of people make a live with it and do professonal looking work.
Autofocus - for me - is very necessary on this type of camera, because it gives you the freedom to use it without the need to look into the VF.

How do you want to pull focus e.g. when holding the camera over your head in crowd, just seeing the small image on LCD and needing both hands to fix the cam ?

:: www.deepcode1.com ::
sounds, vision, interaction

[Priyesh P.]

this is a very short list .. ;)
How do you want to pull focus e.g. when holding the camera over your head in crowd, just seeing the small image on LCD and needing both hands to fix the cam ?


just like you'd do with an a-minima or a 235. it's done by an assistant.

i mean what everybody seems to ask for is comparable to request a MiniDV cam from arri. It may sound nice at first, but it is not what can be regarded as a companion to a full blown camera like the red. Something with a fixed lens and those awful auto-features is not acceptable for pro-shooters in the areas of features, commercials, music videos etc. and red never intended to step down into the semi-pro or amateur leagues. That's at least what i was reading from the other items they announce:. 4K monitors and projectors.

[deepcode]

o.k. so you are happy to have a small, flexible cam but this damm assistant adds additional 75 kilos to stem .. ;)

I guess nobody is hurt by automatic features which can be easily turned off ??
Or is a flip LCD also unprofessional ?
I know some EB people being very disapointed about the fact this is still missing on their XX thousand EUR cam .. such a simple, small thing.

I guess when Red does something small, they do it for people needing a fast, reliable tool even for difficult situations, not only story tellers working in well controlled environment. But we´ll see ..

:: www.deepcode1.com ::
sounds, vision, interaction

[Priyesh P.]

o.k. so you are happy to have a small, flexible cam but this damm assistant adds additional 75 kilos to stem .. ;)

I guess nobody is hurt by automatic features which can be easily turned off ??
Or is a flip LCD also unprofessional ?
I know some EB people being very disapointed about the fact this is still missing on their XX thousand EUR cam .. such a simple, small thing.

I guess when Red does something small, they do it for people needing a fast, reliable tool even for difficult situations, not only story tellers working in well controlled environment. But we´ll see ..

:: www.deepcode1.com ::
sounds, vision, interaction

sorry deepcode, wasn't my intention to sound harsh, i apologize.
yes, you're right with the additional weight of an offboard ac/fp :-) - 75 kilo is a very heavy focusing system.

the problem with auto-functions is that it is not always assured that they really had been switched off. you don't always have the time to dig through menus to check everything - and i had some really bad experiences, and if you have unpatient guys in front of your lens things get even "hotter"...

but i never had any problems with a built-in lcd, actually i was a big opponent until i had the pleasure to use a pd-150. now i have a pd-150 for myself...

[Mark B.]

I think the RPPC will be something along the lines of the Canon Elph in size, with a small built-in lense of anywhere from 3x to 8x zoom, a CMOS chip (Made by Red but smaller than the R1 chip) that captures 2k at 60p, variable frame rates and configurable auto or manual settings. LCD is permanently shown at the back of the camera (again, like the elph-style digital cameras), and the camera will have both still-photo and video functions. Picture quality will be slightly better than a typical pocket cam, and the video capture will be sent to CF cards using RedCode compression.

I don't think a "professional" camera necessarily needs to have interchangeable lenses. It just has to perform well enough that a financially profitable video can be made with it, which is entirely possible with the spec's I've mentioned. To me, being able to drop the camera in a shirt pocket is the key... traveling, going to concerts, being always ready for events around you, making people more comfortable in front of the lens, it's all possible when the camera is that small.

[Jason Murphy]

Forgive me if this has been brought up already, but has it even been confirmed that the PPC is going to be for motion picture acquisition? Quite frankly, I haven't heard anything official along those lines, and in fact, if memory serves correct, the powers that be at RED were pretty quick to note that the PPC was NOT a Mini-RED One. The only other thing they said about it is that it was a "Pocket. Professional. Camera." It could very well be a pocket-sized still camera for large format digital image acquisition (as technologically improbable as that sounds), or something along those lines.

Note: I could, of course, be totally wrong about this, and I would love to see a pocket-sized RED camera for motion picture acquisition, but quite frankly, I'm not sure that this is what the PPC is necessarily going to be about.

[deepcode]

sorry deepcode, wasn't my intention to sound harsh...
the problem with auto-functions is that it is not always assured that they really had been switched off. ...

no problem :-)
And you are right, I think on my very first project, long time gone, we get a semi-pro, half broken VHS cam with damaged batteries from a student course.
Because of permanent accu panic, we didn´t check the takes - and end of day everything was waste, because the time - and camera data was blended in the video picture!
Another thing was my first project with the FX-1, I forgot to set the gain control to manual and so some takes were taken with +18 db. Fortunately no problems because of this and just a few takes ..

So if auto features then there should be a big RED button to disable all automatic functions savely.

:: www.deepcode1.com ::
sounds, vision, interaction

[Priyesh P.]

no problem :-)
...camera data was blended in the video picture!
...some takes were taken with +18 db. Fortunately no problems because of this and just a few takes ..

So if auto features then there should be a big RED button to disable all automatic functions savely.


That's exactely what I was speaking of!

[Mathew Mackereth]

is it just me - or would it make more sense for the sensor to be s16 sized in a pocket configuration?

a "pocket" camera wouldn't be the primary production camera on a film, so surely a larger DOF from a smaller sensor size would actually be a good thing if shooting handheld - or with quick "b" camera setups and no focus puller.

that way it also offers something different from a red one.

...just a thought...

[Garth Philpot]

Please hurry on this unit ... I'll take two whilst I raise funds for my red one ... Optimal specs would be 16mm frame size... 2K, body size maybe a little smaller than compact handy cams , but not too small ( assuming this will be for hand held use it may be difficult to stabilize ? ) . A rigid Aluminum (Brushed Black) frame with the possibility of adapter rings . An upscale frame cage to take it from a pocket cam to something for serious Docie work would be great ( envisaging a bolt on cage to allow it to accept better lenses and Mics and Tripod mount )

I know that this would start to encroach on the red one but give us the option of adding accessories, people will thank you for it by emptying their wallets . Also this would be awesome for wet work ( underwater housing please )

http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/41mmr7ZEXvL._AA280_.jpg

give us accessories for sports usage like this cam , but the option of getting it to do some serious work too . I'd pay premium for that functionality...also give us the option of shooting pal or ntsc ... at our desired frame rate .



although that is not even a pro sumer camera the idea is around a CF device that is portable and flexible . it would be nice to incorporate pro features into it too..


Oh... and I know you can make it look a whole bunch sexier than what SI have to offer in this small form factor...
http://www.siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/Images/SI-2Kmini_productpage.jpg

[Garth Philpot]

or something like this done professionally


http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/attachment.php?attachmentid=4485&d=1190284153

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/attachment.php?attachmentid=4484&d=1190284153




I have one of these for point and shoot and let me tell you the image is crisp ans clear.10.1 Megapixels out of your pocket . Almost pips my DSLR for quality and is a pleasure to carry around . I just hope what they have in mind is more for "video" or digital cinema lovers than it is for stills.
http://www.samsungcamera.co.uk/upload/product/NVcs103/gview_20060701_0_NV10-Bimg_trim.jpg


...

[deepcode]

Red Mini has landed:

http://www.slashcam.de/images/news/6504_PIC1.jpg

;)

o.k. you have some Months to top this with larger sensors ( 2/3 ) and cheaper media .. otherwise I am sold ..

:: www.deepcode1.com ::
sounds, vision, interaction

[deepcode]

anybody out there having experience with 1/2 inch cameras, especially regarding DOF ?

:: www.deepcode1.com ::
sounds, vision, interaction

[proaudio4]

I'm with Deepcode on this one.

If RED were to announce they were making a similar camera to the XDCAM EX, but offered larger sensors 2/3" (or greater), 2K images, 4:2:2 and a better compression codec, I'd foget the Sony hands down! Less than $8K USD.. Sign me up!
I'm hoping the term "Pocket Cam" used by RED is really a figure of speech.
Something around the size of the EX would be great!

http://www.slashcam.de/images/news/6504_PIC1.jpg

[proaudio4]

To me, and this is of course just speculation, "pocket camera" implies compact and easy to use. It's going to have one or two options for zoom lenses. It's going to have autofocus... It's going to be the ultimate ENG, run-n-gun, workhorse camera for a single operator.

I don't know if it will be a full 4K camera with a S35mm sensor... I kinda doubt that. My gut feeling is it will have a 2/3" or S16mm size sensor and will shoot 2K REDCODE RAW to FLASH media. Probably CF or 1.8" SSD.

This would be awesome!

[deepcode]

first DOF comparison for the PMW on the german "slashcam" forum:

http://www.slashcam.de/artikel/Test/Erste-Shots-mit-der-Vorserie--Sony-PMW-EX1.html#T4

looks very good for me - much bigger difference to 1/3'' imagers of the HVX than expected :-)
And really great low light sensivity - MUCH more than the HVX altough the Sony imagers have 3 times the resolution.

So if RED gives us something better It would be great, but I am shure It´s also possible to do great work with the new sony.
Thanks RED, I am shure the lazy dog Sony would not rollout something like this without the competition to you. ;-)

:: www.deepcode-one.com ::
sounds, vision, interaction

[Marcuchik]

OK, posting for the first time here and I want to bring a really fresh perspective to the discussion. Instead of obsessing over what details work perfectly for you, why not look at the development process in a really different way. (I dare not say paradigm.)

Remember when the SONY VX1000 appeared on the scene? It changed independent filmmaking and broadcast television in a few months and that's no small accomplishment. I say this camera because the other miniDV cameras were full of problems. The canon cameras and the GOOD panasonic cameras were years later...

A small camera from RED with ANY of RED's over-delivery on quality, modular configurations, workflow, etc would be an absolute godsend to the very same markets. Can you imagine being a film student these days? Can you imagine a whole generation of film students and independent filmmakers owning a smaller, affordable RED camera and making films tucked into the corners of cars where no other camera would fit, running through the desert or the jungle where no prosumer camera would survive?

I think the A-minima comparison is the most important concept to follow - a fully professional camera that would allow students and accomplished filmmakers to pull off shots that can only be accomplished with a low profile camera that has solid glass on the front.

This discussion should be MORE than a wish list - we need to get the smaller RED camera to become a industry-transforming wave similar to what RED 1 obviously is.

And don;t worry, I am sure there are many, many RED cameras in the pipeline - but this one is REALLY important - maybe MORE important than RED 1.

Marco North

[krost-audiovisual]

hi,

no doubt that the small Red will be a breakthrough in many terms, but still announcing a professional pocket camera will leave many people sticking to the sonys, panas etc.
Why?
Simply because if it's going to be a camera like the "small" SI - basically a box with the sensor, rudimentary controls with an external LCD - then this will be a very limited market...
I can't go to a client with this sort of camera shooting a documentary/image filmetc. This small SI is an addition to the full-size version, or usable for special occasions, but not a run-gun camera at all....
if it's gonna be like the small SI then i have to save money and try to get a red one.

it's the simple question if red will produce a camera for one-man entreprises and/or video-hobbyists, or a camera for film-folk who'd love to have a small version of their big cameras for special use...

just my thoughts..

cheers
stefan

ps.: if going for the film folk then pls RED built a portable HD-SDI recorder at a breakthrough pricepoint that records in Redcode to flash-memory - this would be a perfect gadget for all the people with handycams(especially with the new sonys)....

[proaudio4]

hi,

no doubt that the small Red will be a breakthrough in many terms, but still announcing a professional pocket camera will leave many people sticking to the sonys, panas etc.


Well put, I'm not waiting to see if it really is a "pocket camera". I know there are a lot of us ready to throw down on the XDCAM EX. I'm one of them.

[lordtangent]

Like Eugenia, I'm also an HV20 owner. I recently did a post on HV20.com of what my "dream cam" would be. Keep in mind, I wrote this as a "wish list" relative the the HV20. Many of these are features the RED already has of course.

I'm posting a slightly re-worked version here to see what the RED crowd thinks.

This first item is something that IMHO would be a big improvement over even the RED ONE. And compared to any regular "video" camera out there, it would be a big step forward. LOG sensors have long been used in machine vision, but until now they were not too practical for stuff like video. The LINLOG technology mentioned in feature #1 changes all of that.

1. LINLOG™ (http://www.photonfocus.com/html/eng/cmos/linlog.php) sensor for extended dynamic range while keeping low noise in the shadows and midtones. 2k-3k res 2/3"-1" bayer pattern sensor. (to allow for good over sampling on 1080 material.) I'd like to have some control over setting the level of LINLOG highlight compression also. (A few pre-sets like "None, Mild, Medium, Strong" at the very least) It might be worth considering an "improved" RGB filter scheme, similar to the Panavision Genesis, where R and B get a more love. (But that would probably only make sense if the sensor had enough over sampling)

2. Hard Drive and Flash based recording

3. 1-60 fps progressive frame rates.

4. RAW capture with wavelet compression, I-frame only. The cam could do decoding internally to send video out to HDMI. A software codec would allow editing on software NLE of native RAW files.

5. Proper full manual controls, even if they are menu driven.

6. Data port that allows direct copy to external hard drive (for downloading data) or direct recording to external HD. (Preferable eSata or FireWire800 for best speed.)

7. Decent "focus ring" and variable speed zoom controls.

8. This last one is wacky but worth throwing in there. How about a multi-connector for a "breakout box". That way we can have all the full-size connectors when shooting in more of a "studio mode", but still keep the body of the camera small. "Pocket" "Field Mode". Custom breakout cables or boxes could be built that support the connectors people use most. And only a single well bundled and easy to route cable would have to be hanging off the cam. Regardless of if this makes it in or not, you are going to have to be very picky about what connectors you include if you want to keep the body a reasonable size.

My preference would be that this "dream cam" be designed with price in mind. So, a non-removable lens is OK with me, as long as it's good and keeps the price down. (It would reduce the chance of getting dust on the sensor to zero also) Another option would be c-mount lenses. I think old TV c-mount lenses can cover a 1" sensor (the old TV camera tubes were 1") If all the manual options need to be menu driven to reduce the cost, I'm OK with that also. (As long as I still get full manual control)

As for wavelet compression, Rather than "Redcode" Red could get on board with the BBC and use Dirac and/or Dirac Pro codec (http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/dirac/diracpro.shtml) (or a minor variation tuned for use with RAW files). Support from more vendors like RED Cinema increases the odds of Dirac Pro becoming a more widely accepted standard. (Universal standards=good for everyone) And it's great for Red. 90% of the development on Dirac is already done and there are no licensing fees. The BBC has even published hardware description language for hardware codecs. Hardware based encoders and decoders are starting to ship. If RED Cinema provided the "RAW Dirac Pro" improvements back to the OSS community, they would become instant heroes with the OSS crowd. It would also make it much easier for third parties to support their cameras.

So, what do you think?

[Kurt A]

I want Jim to come up with something that was as revolutionary as -oh I don't know- Nikon reflex camera's.

A very basic film camera that is more like an DSLR camera, but solid and in a form factor as still camera's where once, like the Nikon FE's and all those things whose simplicity and sturdiness everyone praised.

Something to hang around our neck at all times, at all cost.

Something ready to shoot in 0.5 seconds.

So I agree with Garth.

[Eugene]

Something to hang around our neck at all times

It will have a wrist strap, because it is going to be small (like a TX1.)

Jim seems to have some pull at Canon (look at the Canon ads.) I still can't find a Canon TX1 in the stores. I wish they had reservation numbers, like RED does. Then you would know when you could expect to get one. I think Canon is waiting till Turkyday to release the TX1 in mass. Is there someting Jim can do for us (me), since he is in tight with Canon?

[rascom]

Hey Redusers/-wanters. My first post here as well! The mini should be named hvx+m2 killer, or at least it very well could be. Look at the great lenghts indie filmmakers and hobbyists have gone to mount slr and other lenses on to their dv-cameras. Therefore I think it would be wonderful if this camera has an aps-c sized sensor so the FOV is the same as on a RED and most dslr. That would make the camera great for preproduction for a RED feature, and super for all those slr-shooters. Plus I think there are many tmes more SLR lenses out there than say s16. Im not sure if it is possible to cram such a sensor into a pocketable version, but im more into a A-Minima form factor anyways.
So my wishes for a 1/2 RED(could be the name, hehe...) is:
NO fixed lens, you simply choose your mount when you order
2k on APS-C sized sensor
stereo input plus headphone
variable framerates a la HVX, but only progressive as RED ONE
CFstorage with the possibility to record to an external drive
jogwheel
A new super small production pack for this one, not ONE

Great forum btw!

[krost-audiovisual]

Hi again,

well, sony's new standard in handycams is out and the footage looks very very good, given the fact that the price is even lower than some hdv camcorders!

now, what's it going to be, RED??
shalt i wait for the NAB or shalt i not....

to be honest: redcode is far better than 35mbs xdcamex. Period.
But: what kind of camera will RED build?
Assuming that RED doesn't want to offend their Red One customer, i predict that it will do 2k, but almost certainly with a fixed lens.
Why? Because i think that many many people would rather buy the small RED if it had a removable lens than the RED One.
4k is perfect, but for the next 2-3years 2k will be fine - taking into account that other manufacturers will challenge RED One and what is 3 years in R+D : AGES!!!!
As for the price: will it be significantly below 10k?
Still assuming that it has a fixed lens (in the first release) it can, but if it's a removable version, Jim would face a revolution of the existing crowds, if such a camera would be half the price of the RED One incl necessary add-ons with features almost the same except for frame rates and resolution.

So: Jim and all the others at RED: Tell us what's in store!
there's no sense in waiting any more. Panasonic and all the others will announce their xdcamex killers fairly soon. And you're the best in knowing
how to build a hype around a camera, so that people are willing to wait 'til approx Autumn next year.

Me, i can't wait 'til april with a temptation like xdcamex around the corner, especially if i get a decent price for my old fx1 incl add-ons without hearing a word of a camera that will render any 35mm adapter useless, and giving me the freedom of working in 4:4:4......

just my 2 cents

cheers
Stefan

[sceneeast]

I'm with Deepcode on this one.

If RED were to announce they were making a similar camera to the XDCAM EX, but offered larger sensors 2/3" (or greater), 2K images, 4:2:2 and a better compression codec, I'd foget the Sony hands down! Less than $8K USD.. Sign me up!
I'm hoping the term "Pocket Cam" used by RED is really a figure of speech.
Something around the size of the EX would be great!

http://www.slashcam.de/images/news/6504_PIC1.jpg

Under $10k Sign me up I would buy two of these.:love:

[Patrick Tresch]

My 2cents...

If RED is going to build a PPC, it will be meant to give movie makers a high end tool (not like a Sony Z7 plastic cam) wich could be a great B camera & for more descrete shootings condition like docu / small places / even base jumping (why not).

It phylosophy could be s16mm like. With true optics.
Fully equiped (optics/power/media) less than 6kg, 35X12X15cm...

S16mm sized captor 2k would be great. But 3,5 down scaled to 2k also but would be much more trickier for focus pulling... I think s35mm sensor size would be impossible to get sharp image when DOP is alone on tricky hand held situation (like on every documentry). And optics/matte box would increase way too much the weight of the camera.

Call me a dreamer...

Patrick

See you!

[Roberto B]

Background and newsbreak links
On 4/16/07, at the opening of NAB, I was very fortunate to be the very first journalist to break the news on all five of RED’s announcements: the new RED cine lenses (18-50 zoom, primes), the Peter Jackson "Crossing the Line" production, the Professional Pocket Camera, RED 4k displays, and RED 4k projectors.

I interviewed Ted Schiliwitz at 9:05am on 4/16 at the RED NAB tent, and he gave me the first news about the Professional Pocket Camera, and RED 4k displays and projectors. Shortly after that I broke that news via a post on the Studio Daily blog, here on RED User, and subsequently in my RED at NAB, Part 2 article on the Studio Daily web site that day.

Timeline of my publishing & posting on NAB 2007 opening day:

RED @ NAB, Part 1 (Studio Daily web site, live online at 9am Pacific Time, 4/16/07)
http://www.studiodaily.com/main/news/7959.html

Studio Daily Blog entry, 4/16/07, 9:41am Pacific Time, breaking news from Ted Schilowitz interview: http://www.studiodaily.com/blog/

RED User forum entry, 4/16/07, 9:51am Pacific Time, breaking news to RED User about my interview with Ted Schilowitz: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1560

RED @ NAB, Part 2 (Studio Daily web site, posted mid-day on 4/16/07)
http://www.studiodaily.com/main/news/7981.html

-----------------------------------

Name: “Professional Pocket Camera” – not “RED Mini”
I think we should get the name of the announced camera correct – as Ted named it in my news breaking interview with him. If you read what I reported in the first newsbreak of the new camera, in my Studio Daily blog entry, I stated: “ A new Professional Pocket Camera (no other details yet)”

If you read what was published shortly after that, on the same day, in my “RED @ NAB, Part 2” article in Studio Daily, I reported: “RED is developing a Professional Pocket Camera – a miniature camera. Ted couldn’t give me any further details on it, but said there would be more info released in the coming weeks.”

Since the time I broke that news, the term RED Mini has been coined by some. I have to assume that name grew out of my reporting Ted’s descriptive phrase about the camera of “a miniature camera”. The correct name of the camera, as stated by Ted and reported by me, is “Professional Pocket Camera”. An acronym of PPC would fit, but “RED Mini” isn’t the camera’s name.

To my knowledge, since that opening day of NAB, nobody from RED Team has officially stated any more definitive information about the Professional Pocket Camera.

Keeping the above in mind, let me reiterate what I reported: Ted said that RED would be developing a "Professional Pocket Camera". He gave no other details and no hints as to RED's design intentions for the camera, it's size, resolution, function, market, etc. Everything that has been posted about the Professional Pocket Camera on any forum since the news broke, is merely conjecture by interested individuals - but that's cool, that's the function of forums.

Since we only have the name of the new camera to go on, the words “Professional” and “Pocket” hold some definite clues. IMO a professional camera needs to have pro-level features and capabilities. Ted didn’t say “Prosumer Pocket Camera”. What those professional features end up being will remain to be seen. The word “Pocket” is also a huge clue. To me, that implies that this professional camera will fit in a pocket of some kind, right? What size pocket is anyone’s guess at this point, but I think “Pocket” implies that it will not be as big as RED One, which certainly won’t fit in any pocket.

I think a PPC is a great next camera move for RED - even though I don't have the foggiest idea of the parameters and tech specs RED is considering for the camera. IMO, in the development process for RED One, RED has shown that they have their finger on the pulse of the motion media industry. IMO RED is listening. The threads that have been started about the PPC have some very cool feature requests, and I think many of the suggestions have good merit.

RED has only officially stated what I reported on 4/16 - that they are developing a Professional Pocket Camera (exact words). I'm sure they're listening, I think many of the feature requests are logical ones, and I'm also sure RED will say more about the PPC when they feel the time is right.

For my production business, I'll be interested in hearing more about the PPC. If the PPC can dovetail with my RED One cameras for fieldwork in related genres and sub-genres, I'll take a real close look at it.

me likes this post.. especially that 1st part.. especially those timeline details.. suberb..

[Roberto B]

Background and newsbreak links
On 4/16/07, at the opening of NAB, I was very fortunate to be the very first journalist to break the news on all five of RED’s announcements: the new RED cine lenses (18-50 zoom, primes), the Peter Jackson "Crossing the Line" production, the Professional Pocket Camera, RED 4k displays, and RED 4k projectors.

I interviewed Ted Schiliwitz at 9:05am on 4/16 at the RED NAB tent, and he gave me the first news about the Professional Pocket Camera, and RED 4k displays and projectors. Shortly after that I broke that news via a post on the Studio Daily blog, here on RED User, and subsequently in my RED at NAB, Part 2 article on the Studio Daily web site that day.

Timeline of my publishing & posting on NAB 2007 opening day:

RED @ NAB, Part 1 (Studio Daily web site, live online at 9am Pacific Time, 4/16/07)
http://www.studiodaily.com/main/news/7959.html

Studio Daily Blog entry, 4/16/07, 9:41am Pacific Time, breaking news from Ted Schilowitz interview: http://www.studiodaily.com/blog/

RED User forum entry, 4/16/07, 9:51am Pacific Time, breaking news to RED User about my interview with Ted Schilowitz: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1560

RED @ NAB, Part 2 (Studio Daily web site, posted mid-day on 4/16/07)
http://www.studiodaily.com/main/news/7981.html

-----------------------------------

Name: “Professional Pocket Camera” – not “RED Mini”
I think we should get the name of the announced camera correct – as Ted named it in my news breaking interview with him. If you read what I reported in the first newsbreak of the new camera, in my Studio Daily blog entry, I stated: “ A new Professional Pocket Camera (no other details yet)”

If you read what was published shortly after that, on the same day, in my “RED @ NAB, Part 2” article in Studio Daily, I reported: “RED is developing a Professional Pocket Camera – a miniature camera. Ted couldn’t give me any further details on it, but said there would be more info released in the coming weeks.”

Since the time I broke that news, the term RED Mini has been coined by some. I have to assume that name grew out of my reporting Ted’s descriptive phrase about the camera of “a miniature camera”. The correct name of the camera, as stated by Ted and reported by me, is “Professional Pocket Camera”. An acronym of PPC would fit, but “RED Mini” isn’t the camera’s name.

To my knowledge, since that opening day of NAB, nobody from RED Team has officially stated any more definitive information about the Professional Pocket Camera.

Keeping the above in mind, let me reiterate what I reported: Ted said that RED would be developing a "Professional Pocket Camera". He gave no other details and no hints as to RED's design intentions for the camera, it's size, resolution, function, market, etc. Everything that has been posted about the Professional Pocket Camera on any forum since the news broke, is merely conjecture by interested individuals - but that's cool, that's the function of forums.

Since we only have the name of the new camera to go on, the words “Professional” and “Pocket” hold some definite clues. IMO a professional camera needs to have pro-level features and capabilities. Ted didn’t say “Prosumer Pocket Camera”. What those professional features end up being will remain to be seen. The word “Pocket” is also a huge clue. To me, that implies that this professional camera will fit in a pocket of some kind, right? What size pocket is anyone’s guess at this point, but I think “Pocket” implies that it will not be as big as RED One, which certainly won’t fit in any pocket.

I think a PPC is a great next camera move for RED - even though I don't have the foggiest idea of the parameters and tech specs RED is considering for the camera. IMO, in the development process for RED One, RED has shown that they have their finger on the pulse of the motion media industry. IMO RED is listening. The threads that have been started about the PPC have some very cool feature requests, and I think many of the suggestions have good merit.

RED has only officially stated what I reported on 4/16 - that they are developing a Professional Pocket Camera (exact words). I'm sure they're listening, I think many of the feature requests are logical ones, and I'm also sure RED will say more about the PPC when they feel the time is right.

For my production business, I'll be interested in hearing more about the PPC. If the PPC can dovetail with my RED One cameras for fieldwork in related genres and sub-genres, I'll take a real close look at it.

me likes this post.. especially that 1st part.. especially those timeline details.. superb..

[Petr Dvorak]

And what about to offer both lens options: fixed or removable version. Choose yourself.
I am definitelly waiting all the time for REMOVEABLE!!!

This form factor is near

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/15_1195707289.jpg
http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/15_1195707587.jpg
http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/15_1195707220.jpg

[krost-audiovisual]

yep, the new sonys...
well, i don't know what to think about them..
will it be really that improvement regarding DOF?
i always thought that a good part is depending on sensor size as well as on lens..
oh, btw, as stated you can't just plug cour canons and nikons in front of the body - sensor size

and: who really is thinking about getting these at a price point comparable to the xdcamex with a higher bitrate and higher resolution??? i'm not, i'd rather attach my letus extreme to a xdcamex...

and it's hdv, it's hdv, it's hdv...
if i had to choose between them and waiting a year for a red mini i'd wait

just my 2 cents...

[Petr Dvorak]

I showed sonys only as concept example and form factor and definitely not because of its weak guts :wink:

Yep forgot about HDV etc etc