Birger Lens Mount & Follow Focus

[Erik Widding]

Just a little teaser before we put out pricing and reservation forms on Thursday 5 July... (I am taking the holiday off.:bye2:)

We will be releasing Canon EF (August), Sigma SA (August), FourThirds (September) and Nikon F (October) lens mounts for the RED ONE camera. These lens mounts, through a mechanical adapter, can also be used on a RedRock M2, and other 35mm adapters.

Attached are pictures of the rail-mount follow focus knob and Canon EF lens mount prototypes. These were printed on a Dimension 3D printer using ABS plastic. The main housings of both will be made from aluminum, and the knob from injection molded polycarbonate. The bayonets will be made from stainless steel.

The follow-focus knob contains a 4096 count magnetic encoder; is selectable between single turn with hard stops, and multi-turn; has a friction adjustment; and has snap-off markable rings (white part). The lens mount has a built in bluetooth antenna. Each module has two LEMO 0B connectors for daisy-chaining power and RS232 from the camera to these (and yet to be announced) modules.

In addition to the open Birger protocol, the lens mount also speaks Fuji and Cooke-like lens protocols so it can be used with existing lens control, data-logging and data-display equipment. The protocol used on each of the three ports (bluetooth, 2 x RS232) is configurable on a port by port basis.

Changing lens mounts requires disconnecting one (or two) LEMO 0B connectors from the bottom of the mount, and removing and replacing the four screws (visible from the front of the mount in the images) with an allen key.

More on Thursday...:whistling:

[Jaime Vallés]

Fantastic news, Erik! Can't wait for more info on Thursday. I'll definitely be looking into one of these for my RED.

[Matt Uhry]

IMPRESSIVE.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[ZzzZZz...]

I am lovin´ it

[PaulClements]

Looks great Eric, and the availability of the Nikon mount as early as that is exceptional news.

How favourably (In as unbiased pov as you can have with your own product!) does the follow focus compare to chrosz/ARRI's using Cine lenses? The hard stops and friction adjustments are great additions.

Will all the mounts be the same price?

[Evin Grant]

I'm licking my lips!

[chuck colburn]

Hi Erik,

Way to go.
Looks like the basic mounting system for the RED front end is a quarter turn cam locking system. If this is true it should help to aliveate some fears about changing lens mounts on the camera. Got any photos of the back of that circular part? lol

Chuck

OOOOPPS,
Never mind, just reread your original post and I guess I just skipped that last line.

[Bruce Allen]

Awesome! So nice to see such a great-looking and well-thought-out product after our months of waiting and chatting excitedly about it. Congrats, Erik...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Steve Gibby]

Erik,

Thanks for the hard work on those, the update and pics, and for your offer to get adaptors to us for the L.A. REDTest (LART). We'll happily test them out for you! They'll be a welcome addition to the equipment we'll test, because many RED One users are curious about them, and will probably end up having them in their kits. If they check out well, I know I'll add some to my kits...

[Jaime Vallés]

Quick question: Will the Birger Nikon F mount be able to use "G" designated Nikon lenses with no aperture ring?

[Shawn Nelson]

Wow! I'm loving the look Erik!

[Sanjin Jukic]

Amazing!

And don't forget that with
Birger Lens Mount Canon EF plus (+) Leica R for Canon EOS adapter
you could attach for example
LEICA PC (Perspective Correction) - SUPER ANGULON-R 28 mm f/2.8

It is a manual lens and Birger mount you use only to attach Leica R adapter and then Leica-R lens to RED.
No need for any electronic controls.

"HERE'S HOW TO AVOID CONVERTING VERTICALS

This special lens is unmatched, particularly for architectural photography and interior shots, because it eliminates the converging verticals of conventional lenses. With its huge 62 mm image circle, it permits infinitely variable perspective correction (PC) by shifting the optical system as much as 11 mm off axis, in any direction - until a natural overall look is attained (see illustration at right). Its special mount permits rotation in 45° increments, to make perspective corrections vertically, horizontally, or obliquely. A selector lever closes the lens down to its pre-set aperture. A floating element guarantees high imaging quality down to close-ups at 30cm (12 in)."

http://www.leica-camera.us/assets/media/img2205.jpg
Las Vegas without PC correction

http://www.leica-camera.us/assets/media/img2206.jpg
Las Vegas with PC correction

Original link
http://www.leica-camera.us/photography/r_system/lenses/506.html

[Darwin]

Quick question: Will the Birger Nikon F mount be able to use "G" designated Nikon lenses with no aperture ring? I'm thinking that is the whole point.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Can't wait to see pricing and more details on that Nikon mount.

[Brian Valente]

Sanjin

Does that lens have tilt as well? I spent a lot of time researching perspective lenses (especially wide angle ones) and found that shift alone didn't really cut the mustard for me. I ended up looking at a russian shift/tilt 35mm lens, whose name eludes me at the moment.

Brian

[Michael Schrengohst]

OK, dumb question:
If I am using Nikon lenses and
have the Nikon RED mount on order
why do I need the Birger Lens Mount?

Another dumb question:
What mount does it attach to on the RED?
Will I not need the RED Nikon mount?

And yet one more dumb question:
I am guessing most of these questions
will be answered once the mount is released,
however what extra functionally does
the Birger Lens Mount add?

[Sanjin Jukic]

Sanjin

Does that lens have tilt as well? I spent a lot of time researching perspective lenses (especially wide angle ones) and found that shift alone didn't really cut the mustard for me. I ended up looking at a russian shift/tilt 35mm lens, whose name eludes me at the moment.

Brian

Brian

Leica Super Angulon PC 28 mm f/28 is very expensive lens but can do shift only. Costs at BH shop $ 3,395.00.
Link>>
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/29592-USA/Leica_11812_Wide_Angle_28mm_f_2_8.html

Used could be found for about $ 1.800. Also it isn't exactly cheap.

You said Russians and I found one cheap and good
Kiev/Arsenal f. Nikon 35/2,8 PCS Arsat for about 130 EUR

http://www.rugift.com/images/mc35mm-tilt-shift-lens.jpg
http://www.rugift.com/photocameras/mc-35mm-tilt-shift-lens-nikon.htm

http://www.malavila.com/arax/D70/NikonD70_Arax_2.jpg
http://www.malavila.com/arax/D70/

[Brian Valente]

Yes - the arsat. that was the one.

The leica sounds beautiful, but for nearly $4k I need to have a gig with a huge budget that warrants it! :)

Brian

[Sanjin Jukic]

Brian,

Also one more question:

Can RedRock make a simple Canon EOS mount for RED the same as for RR M2 and also that that costs approximately the same?

[PaulClements]

OK, dumb question:
If I am using Nikon lenses and
have the Nikon RED mount on order
why do I need the Birger Lens Mount?

The Birger Lens Mount uses the nikons automatic controls (or Canon EF, Sigma SA, FourThirds), effectively turning your RedOne into a Nikon body with the controls via a lens control using bluetooth or RS232 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS232)(Not shown here) to set how it works. In this way you can set it to autofocus and simply point the camera at what you are wanting to shoot. Of course there are limitations to using the autofocus on slr lenses for video. The focus can be slightly irratic and if you are not pointing directly at the object it might refocus on something else, but hopefully Birger has overcome this issue. One test I did recently using a canon body was to examine this irratic focus. By gently tapping the button the lens would refocus only slightly, whereas a hard press made it focus heavily which wouldn't be suitable for motion. I presume that the Birger mount will force the lens to do a gentle focus constantly so that the transition between focus is smooth, I'm sure Eric can chime in.

By using the follow focus unit this should hopefully negate many of the problems associated with attaching a traditional ff to an slr lens because it isn't being controlled by rotating the focus ring manually but using the automatic controls to do so. Theoretically using the automatic controls you ought to be able to get as smooth an action as using cine lenses and an ARRI/Chrosz ff, but we'll have to wait and see what Gibby and co report when they test it.


Another dumb question:
What mount does it attach to on the RED?
Will I not need the RED Nikon mount?

It will replace the PL Mount that comes as standard with the camera. We know little of changing the mounts other than what Eric has illustrated in this thread: "Changing lens mounts requires disconnecting one (or two) LEMO 0B connectors from the bottom of the mount, and removing and replacing the four screws (visible from the front of the mount in the images) with an allen key."


And yet one more dumb question:
I am guessing most of these questions
will be answered once the mount is released,
however what extra functionally does
the Birger Lens Mount add?

Automatic control of focusing and theoretically greater control manually, as it is not limited by the focus ring which is the probably the greatest cause of problems on slr lenses for motion.

If I'm wrong about anything Eric please do correct me.

Paul

[chuck colburn]

Isn't the main thing to get control over the aperture function?

[planet e]

can't wait to hear back from the LART about how this works! i hope they can do a full illustrated report--what i'd really love is a web video clip about how it works. that would really be a big help. it's a little tough to picture it in action just from the stills.

thanks, erik.

[PaulClements]

Isn't the main thing to get control over the aperture function?

Wouldn't it have been posted with an Aperture focus rather than a Follow Focus though?

Everything I've written is my take on it. I could be way off base but this is what I assumed it would be capable of. I presume that Aperture control would be one of the features of it too.

[Matt Uhry]

In this way you can set it to autofocus and simply point the camera at what you are wanting to shoot.
Paul

Not Autofocus!

The mount that lets you take manual control of Iris and the Focus motors of the lens. Or in the case of AF lenses that are mechanically driven by the camera body it simulates that.

A very good and use full thing in my opinion if you are shooting with newer stills lenses, many of which have iris's that can only be set electronically. It will also probably allow you to electronically expand the focus scale.



A few questions:

1. How do you set the iris on the birger mount ? It would be nice if it was on the mount itself, but could be over-ruled by the remote.

2. How does it get it's power from the camera, are there contacts or an internal cable in the camera body. ?

3. If two units are used near eachother in bluetooth mode is there a way we can distinguish which remote controls which lens.


Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[tj williams]

Also Eos stabilizer lenses are supported and you can control iris on Eos lenses and Nikon lenses which do not have external iris rings. I think this also allows iris changes during the shot. right Eric...... What a day off!!!!!

[PaulClements]

Not Autofocus!

The mount that lets you take manual control of Iris and the Focus motors of the lens. Or in the case of AF lenses that are mechanically driven by the camera body it simulates that.

My bad then. Seems a shame that an adapter can't be built that does the autofocus on these lenses though, I suppose it requires the nikons sensor in order to refocus in such a way.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Autofocus would be a great addition, especially for ENG applications. But I don't see that happening unless there's some way to pull live data from the camera that could then be fed into these mounts to control AF lenses or in turn drive something like a RED Motor for cine-lenses. I suppose if Graeme's magic focus assist deal (whatever it turns out to be) could provide sufficient data to an external device (via USB or other interface), then there might be a chance.. Maybe. Interesting to think about though.

[planet e]

i think it is an adaptation of this:

http://www.birger.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=ef232_home

which would indicate that it works both aperture and auto-focus, but i suppose we will have to get the final word from erik, after the fireworks....

[Emanuel A.]

i think it is an adaptation of this:

http://www.birger.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=ef232_home

which would indicate that it works both aperture and auto-focus, but i suppose we will have to get the final word from erik, after the fireworks....This would be the dream of the dreams. I'd be a Canonish definitely beyond a Nikonish...and a Birgerish -- that would be for sure!

[Zane Roach]

Or in the case of AF lenses that are mechanically driven by the camera body it simulates that.


I think it's only if the motors are in the lens itself. See post:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=19861#post19861

So unless something has changed, that rules out focus control for some Nikons.

[ColinSmith]

Canon lens have the focus motors in the lens, Nikon ones have a mechanical drive from the body, some physical differences in what the mount has to do as well as just the different "systems", but I have read they plan to have the Nikon mount providing the mechanical connection too.

Birger have also talked in the past about an external mechanical drive to have remote control of zoom, by driving the external zoom ring on the lens directly.

[Erik Widding]

2. How does it get it's power from the camera, are there contacts or an internal cable in the camera body. ?

One of the LEMO connectors on the bottom.


3. If two units are used near each other in bluetooth mode is there a way we can distinguish which remote controls which lens.

Yes. Each will have a unique ID, based on its serial number that is laser engraved on the front of the unit.

[Erik Widding]

There were some questions on the usage model...

The camera and/or supergrip can talk to, and provide power to, the unit over one of the LEMOs. This is how lens meta data will be recorded with the image stream. The Cooke and Fuji protocols can be used for querying data, the Fuji protocol for moving the lens. So camera menu and/or supergrip are potential ways to control the lens, if and when RED integrates this into the camera.

The second LEMO will source power, and is intended for an accessory bus. This will be used for a zoom motor, one or more knobs, etc.

A computer, PDA or wireless remote control can talk to it over bluetooth. This will allow full control over the unit, including software upgrades. This will also be how various control surfaces (i.e. the big knob) will be assigned to a specific control axis - i.e. iris or focus.

From a protocol perspective each port is the same, and can be assigned a specific personality. The physical differences are: one is wireless, one can provide power, and one must be provided power. When initially setting up the system, these personalities can be selected.

As time goes on, the protocols, and the available accessories, are subject to improvement, and additional offerings; as well as third party options, such as CVB's really cool looking remote.


1. How do you set the iris on the birger mount ? It would be nice if it was on the mount itself, but could be over-ruled by the remote.

This is a really good idea. Prior to full integration by REDm this would allow the thing to be used out of the box without adding an extra knob or having any other control available.

I think it would make sense to have three buttons on the unit:

HOME
IRIS+
IRIS-


HOME would open the iris all the way, and would find the zoom and focus limits, and then return the lens to the current knob positions. Which side of the mount should the buttons be on?

Anybody want to comment?

Unfortunately, this means I am going to delay pricing and final feature announcement another day or two.

[Mr. Paul White]

After all, will there be auto focus feature or not?

Please, simple answer for dummies: yes or no?

[Erik Widding]

After all, will there be auto focus feature or not?

Please, simple answer for dummies: yes or no?

No...

[Evin Grant]

Erik, can the iris control be a wheel, preferably a stepless analog control?
And how will we know the set aperture? Only through a PDA or Laptop?

[Erik Widding]

Erik, can the iris control be a wheel, preferably a stepless analog control?

The big knob mounted on the camera could be assigned to this. The wireless unit will have two knobs. The supergrip will have a joystick.


And how will we know the set aperture? Only through a PDA or Laptop?

Through the viewfinder. The lens mount will report it to the camera, using either the Cooke or Fuji lens protocols. The RED camera supports these protocols.

[tj williams]

Hi Eric nice unit. Looks really rugged and professional...

I'm hoping the iris can be rolled seperately from the focus possibly using a second control (Big Knob) so we can pull focus as we dolly thru a change in light.

The Asst. I showed it to last night thought that the "big knob" should have a hinge on the clamp so it can drop directly off the rod without needing to remove matte box, lens support etc. when moving to the Dummy side.

Will the Big Knob support remote hard wired operation for cranes etc? how far?

Does the Big Know allow us to use our standard Arri whips?

Can you talk a little about how much the control stretches parts of the lens travel or moves the whole lens travel to a full circle of the control, About reversing the direction of the control travel re the lens, about repeating the marks when remounting on a lens previously marked, about your idea of ready made marked disks????

[Matt Uhry]

Erik, can the iris control be a wheel, preferably a stepless analog control?



Yes a wheel - on the operator side - camera left.

Buttons are a poor solution. Imagine you walk out of the spooky barn into bright daylight and need to pull the iris on the fly. tap tap tap ugh.

I saw somewhere that it was in 1/2 stops... Is that right ? that sounds like big increments to me. Is there a choice for this? or is it just how the canon lenses works?.

I'm very stoked about this adapter / controller. It's gonna give lots of creative options to lots of people for minimal costs.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[david_winters]

1. Please add the standard whip connector to your FF. (see images)

2. I would love to see a two sided follow focus. As I like to put the assistant on the "dumb" side of the camera for a lot of moves. Either I have personal space issues or it's from years of shooting video without an eyepiece extension.

Cinetech does a nice job of connecting their two FF discs with a flexible aircraft cable. Is something like their implementation a possibility? Of course, eventually you'll have to support the three most common rod setups.

1. Arri 19mm studio
2. Arri 15mm studio
3. Arri 15mm LWS

Nice work, you've given me the excuse I needed to buy the Canon 85mm L.

[Erik Widding]

I'm hoping the iris can be rolled seperately from the focus possibly using a second control (Big Knob) so we can pull focus as we dolly thru a change in light.

That is the plan. Should the knobs have a switch that allows them to be dynamically changed in function? (i.e. four position: focus, iris, zoom, locked out)


The Asst. I showed it to last night thought that the "big knob" should have a hinge on the clamp so it can drop directly off the rod without needing to remove matte box, lens support etc. when moving to the Dummy side.

That is a good idea. We will make sure the screw and hinge part are captive. Is it okay for this to require an allen key? or is a thumbscrew preferred?


Will the Big Knob support remote hard wired operation for cranes etc? how far?

Does the Big Know allow us to use our standard Arri whips?

Probably fifty or a hundred feet off camera will be fine. How important is it to support a whip if the knob will work on a long cable and be easily removable from the rails?


Can you talk a little about how much the control stretches parts of the lens travel or moves the whole lens travel to a full circle of the control, About reversing the direction of the control travel re the lens, about repeating the marks when remounting on a lens previously marked, about your idea of ready made marked disks????

Things like reversal, range mapping and knob function, would all be settable from a computer, PDA or remote. The recognition of a lens would be native to the mount. It would be recognized when it is attached.

The exact functionality of what happens with premarked disks, and lens memories, etc, will be determined through interaction on this forum. I do not want to dismiss this, but rather suggest that the important decisions I need to nail down this week relate to anything that requires hard tooling. I encourage the raising of software issues, but will defer comments on many issues until next week.

[Erik Widding]

I saw somewhere that it was in 1/2 stops... Is that right ? that sounds like big increments to me. Is there a choice for this? or is it just how the canon lenses works?.

We do 1/2 stops on our industrial product, as it leaves the motor at detents, allows the motor to be shut off. We will enable 1/4 stops in the servo mode. This is a function of the design of the mechanism in the lens.

[Matt Uhry]

We do 1/2 stops on our industrial product, as it leaves the motor at detents, allows the motor to be shut off. We will enable 1/4 stops in the servo mode. This is a function of the design of the mechanism in the lens.

Cool, Thanks.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Michael Hastings]

First of all, Erik great work! Thanks.

As far as position of buttons, video guys are generally used to working camera and lens controls (except zoom) with the left hand - since the right hand usually holds the zoom grip and is the main way of holding the camera. Gain, white balance, power, filter, etc are all on the left side of the video camera.



This is a really good idea. Prior to full integration by REDm this would allow the thing to be used out of the box without adding an extra knob or having any other control available.

I think it would make sense to have three buttons on the unit:

HOME
IRIS+
IRIS-


HOME would open the iris all the way, and would find the zoom and focus limits, and then return the lens to the current knob positions. Which side of the mount should the buttons be on?

Anybody want to comment?




My bad then. Seems a shame that an adapter can't be built that does the autofocus on these lenses though, I suppose it requires the nikons sensor in order to refocus in such a way.

As far as I know, an autofocus system would have to be done by the camera head since it is at the sensor/camera electronics that figures out if it is in focus. If the camera head can figure it out it could then tell the birger mount where to set the focus on the lens - so it wouldn't really require anything new of the lens mount (or lens) itself.

[David Nardini]

Thank you Birger (& RED !) ... will there be a working EOS unit on show at IBC 2007 ?

[Ronnie Silos]

Hi Gibby,

Let me know if I can participate in the LA test at least for the Canon lenses. I have in my bag the following lenses and will be willing to provide for the test if needed.

24 1.4 L, 50 1.4, 85 1.2 L, 135 2.0 L, 200 1.8 L, 16-35 2.8L

Thanks, and thank you Erik!

Ronnie

[Steve Gibby]

Thank you for thinking of LART on that! We're still planning out our lens tests. I'll pass your offer on to the team for consideration. If we decide to greenlight your offer, I'll PM you and we'll hook it up.

Thanks again...

[tj williams]

Hi Eric,
1. I like the buttons (to change functions) OK but would want to purchase two wheel controls so I could mount a focus left and right and so I could pull iris and focus at once. ( I would hate moving the iris + or - with buttons) Good that you have got the iris down to 1/4 stop increments. If anything can be done to put it fully under smooth variable control it will of course be even more wonderful!!!

2. Re the hinges totally right!! toolless is the way most stuff is going. I like to have an allen recepticle in the middle of the thumb wing nut thing, so if it can't be tightened enough then put an allen T-bar on it.

3. Great to see the crane thing is covered!! I see your point about the whip. My question is two parts?
A. is it worth it because assts. have a whip and are used to it. and the appearance will be more "professional"
B. Can I put a whip in the hole faster than removing the wheel from the rod and replacing the lemo cable with a longer one?
I supposed this has to be balanced against whether or not there is big additional cost to mfg. an arri recepticle in the wheel?

Lens recognition, can the mount really see the difference between the various lenses so exchange the 17/50 for the 80/200 and the mount knows???

RE disk marking etc. software stuff. It would be nice to place this before working assts. Not too many assts. on this forum.
http://www.filmtools.com/camassup.html
sells to a lot of assts. probably they could put you in touch with a bunch of them...

If it turns out to be possible to enable auto focus. then a button on the wheel or re-moted to the RED handle etc that allows soft touch auto focus/or remote to the wheel would be very nice also.... (probably this is like wheeeeeooo I can fly by flapping my arms.)
The auto focus piece for car work etc for film is a pretty steep rental, and is limited in the near distance just where focus is most critical. so it would be a great accessory........

The big black benz squeals around the corner going dark light dark as it passes under the street lights, the driver regains control and barrells toward camera at high speed at the last minute he applies the brakes and comes to a stop with the benz logo filling the screen!

[T. Glen Phelps]

Eric,

First let me say, I am very excited about the Birger EOS mount. I have a significant investment in Canon L-series glass and it's fantastic that I'll be able to use it on my RED cameras as well as my Canon EOS rigs. I can't wait to try my 400mm and 600mm super telephotos on a RED.

For iris control, in addition to the remote control you mentioned, I would suggest a cine-style rotating toothed ring (continuous analog) around the circumference of the mount. This would in effect add manual iris control to any EOS lens.

I'm also curious about how manual focus is handled on the 85mm f/1.2L lens since it has a different manual focus control scheme than any other L-series lens. The manual focus ring only works when powered by the camera and it has no hard stops, it rotates continuously.

Thanks

Tracy

[Mr. Paul White]

After all, will there be auto focus feature or not?

Please, simple answer for dummies: yes or no?


No...

Is there no way?

[chuck colburn]

Erik,

The idea of a split clamp is ideal. (been thinking about it myself for my lowly mechanical FF idea), but what comes to mind is that it will have to be very accuretly machined as any slop will effect the clamping force. This gets to be more of a concern if the unit is going to be using inserts to switch between 15mm and 19mm dia. rods. Mayby it would be best to tell buyers to just purchase two seperate units. lol

Chuck

[Finner]

That is the plan. Should the knobs have a switch that allows them to be dynamically changed in function? (i.e. four position: focus, iris, zoom, locked out)

Iris would be better as a slide knob as that is what people are use to with current remotes. I think a wheel is best left for focusing. 2 wheels I could see turning into confusion with pulling focus but in the past I have often done a slide iris change while pulling focus and it seems like the brain can handle those 2 moves at 1 time.


That is a good idea. We will make sure the screw and hinge part are captive. Is it okay for this to require an allen key? or is a thumbscrew preferred?

A thumb or better yet a small arm tightner is a must. Allen key work would take to long at times.


Probably fifty or a hundred feet off camera will be fine. How important is it to support a whip if the knob will work on a long cable and be easily removable from the rails?

A whip is also another must as it is important that an focus puller has the ability to have both hands free at all times so you can change ND's or do other work as soon as a change is made. (examples: a remote FF usually has a neck lanyard to make this possible and you can let go of a whip and leave it hanging at any time and do different tasks. In the case of an electronic knob on a cable you would need to find a safe place to put it down beside the camera and even then it could get knocked or if the director decided to have the camera moved 2 feet a knob with a cable would soon become a big pain in the ass. A whip is simple and works very well for many reasons.)


The exact functionality of what happens with premarked disks, and lens memories, etc, will be determined through interaction on this forum. I do not want to dismiss this, but rather suggest that the important decisions I need to nail down this week relate to anything that requires hard tooling. I encourage the raising of software issues, but will defer comments on many issues until next week.

This will be interesting. If I have the time I will comment on it next week as you address it.

[ColinSmith]

Is there no way?

No easy way anyhow....
SLR lenses are dumb, they focus where the body tells them.
SLR bodies also use an autofocus system that depends on there being a mirror there.

It's possible to imagine some basic autofocus system built into the lens mount, but I find it harder to see that approach as usable.
You could also imagine Red putting autofocus on the body, but from the tone of their comments I do not see that as an option they are looking at anytime soon, and it would seem to bring a lot of technical issues in build and usage.

[Michael Hastings]

First of all, this isn't meant to snipe at anyone, it's more to be informational. In this first quote I think Erik is saying that some ability to adjust iris could be right on the mount (allowing use without the cable/extra knobs and since manual focus and zoom are on the lens but manual iris is not). But we need to try to be realistic: I think what he is saying is that since he already has a small circuit board on the mount for the lens contacts, etc. it would be pretty easy to add three small buttons to the board which could also pass through the mount with very little engineering change. However things like a rotating encoder control - as in the second quote, while nice, is a much more substantial design, engineering, manufacturing task and so probably not realistic as a simple add on to what he has already done (which by the way is very substantial).

Finally, as far as autofocus, we probably need to give it up as far as the lens goes because the determination of focus needs to happen in the camera head, so we need to bug the RED team for that. In other words, the lens mount already has what autofocus needs as far as driving the lens - i.e. tell it where to go and it will go there but the determination of where to go (focus) has to be done by the camera head. So if something like RED's magic focus or a facial recognition algorithm in the RED (facial recognition focus is already in a number of $300 digital still cameras) can determine that proper focus is at 7.5 feet then simply send that command to the Birger mount and it will go there. That is in the current version, so if RED or some third party genius comes up with an autofocus algorithm later, it could be used with the Birger mount quite easily.

PS Think about the fact that none of the broadcast/EFP shoulder type cameras e.g Varicam, F900, etc. have autofocus. I think these cameras should have autofocus by now, but the thinking seems to be that a professional is supposed to be anticipating focus so wouldn't want AF since it is normally reacting rather than anticipating. (I know some AF systems track horses, runners, etc. but I'm talking more about an actor walking from 8 feet to 4 feet, or shifting from one actor to another, and anticipating that focus shift - which is harder for an AF system to do.)




This is a really good idea. Prior to full integration by RED this would allow the thing to be used out of the box without adding an extra knob or having any other control available.

I think it would make sense to have three buttons on the unit:

HOME
IRIS+
IRIS-


HOME would open the iris all the way, and would find the zoom and focus limits, and then return the lens to the current knob positions. Which side of the mount should the buttons be on?

Anybody want to comment?





Eric,

For iris control, in addition to the remote control you mentioned, I would suggest a cine-style rotating toothed ring (continuous analog) around the circumference of the mount. This would in effect add manual iris control to any EOS lens.

Thanks

Tracy



(regarding autofocus) Is there no way?

[Don King]

Yes, it's true. I've been working on a 2/3" chip since a long time ago. But the fact is the small 1/3" ones have handled with the auto-focus and there's no evidence on failure tracking subjects.

Red is betting on a new small camcorder. If so, the auto-focus feature should be implemented no matter when. It's only a question of timing.

[Steve Gibby]

Because of its primary market positioning as D-cinema, manual camera, RED One hasn't incorporated auto-functions. Getting auto-anything infused into RED One will not be impossible, but will involve workarounds, most likely by 3rd parties.

Conjecture:
The RED Professional Pocket Camera (PPC) may be a different story, targeted at a different market positioning - a hybrid, crossover, D-cinema/EFP market. I have no knowledge of plans for such, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the RED PPC feature user selectability, via switch/button, of some auto-functions, such as auto-iris and autofocus. In fact, I think it would be an excellent utilitarian feature for the PPC - if the PPC is indeed targeted at the crossover D-cinema/EFP market. For a smaller, multi-genre camera to be auto when you want/need it, and manual when you want/need it would spread the utilitarian value of the camera, and thus also it's target market.

-----------------------------

The notion that someone who uses an auto function on a camera, or for that matter uses a camera system that has some auto-function capabilities, is somehow not a professional, is simply not dealing with the realities of a convergent motion media industry, and the increased capabilities of technology. Legions of EFP professionals regularly use certain auto-functions on their camera systems. Manual functions on a camera are fine, and when they're the best choice for what I'm trying to shoot, I'm all for using them. But since I shoot a wide variety of cine style and EFP style productions, there are times and productions (or portions thereof) where certain auto-functions are not only quite usable, but would sometimes be the best choice - if they're available on a camera system.

RED One's technology pedigree is most closely aligned with DSLR cameras, followed by video cameras, and least similar to film cameras. That said, RED's primary target market for RED One is D-cinema (thus an all-manual camera) - with a secondary target market of EFP.

If RED, Birger, or some other 3rd party manufacturer somehow devises a functional method to enable auto-focus on a RED One, I'll adopt it for use in certain genres of production for which it would be useful. If RED designs switchable auto/manual capabilities into their Professional Pocket Camera (PPC), I'll welcome that as an increase in utility for the camera for a wider range of production genres.

I expect RED One to be an excellent camera system and service a broad array of production genre needs - but I'll also keep an open mind for refinements or 3rd party additions that could even further the capabilities of RED One - and I'll keep my eye on the development and proposed features of the PPC.

I seek a balance between tradition and progression.

[Emanuel A.]

The notion that someone who uses an auto function on a camera, or for that matter uses a camera system that has some auto-function capabilities, is somehow not a professional, is simply not dealing with the realities of a convergent motion media industry, and the increased capabilities of technology. Legions of EFP professionals regularly use certain auto-functions on their camera systems. Manual functions on a camera are fine, and when they're the best choice for what I'm trying to shoot, I'm all for using them. But since I shoot a wide variety of cine style and EFP style productions, there are times and productions (or portions thereof) where certain auto-functions are not only quite usable, but would sometimes be the best choice - if they're available on a camera system.My own thoughts/words too. Same POV.

[Darwin]

I have High hopes for the Birger Lens Mount. I have the 17-55mm f/2.8G ED-IF AF-S DX and the 70-200mm f/2.8G ED-IF AF-S VR, which I think is one of the best zoom lens Nikon has ever made!

[CVB]

Erik, nice work on the adaptor. we'll do our best to get bluetooth into our remote... maybe we can make the transceiver in our remote interchangeable between zigbee (1000m range) and bluetooth (100m range). Worst case scenario we could use the accessory serial port we will have on our receiver and just hook it into the auxiliary port on your adapter then relay the meta data back to the camera through our receiver. There's tons of flexibility in both of our designs and im sure its just going to be a matter of a cable and firmware to get everything working together.

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

I have High hopes for the Birger Lens Mount. I have the 17-55mm f/2.8G ED-IF AF-S DX and the 70-200mm f/2.8G ED-IF AF-S VR, which I think is one of the best zoom lens Nikon has ever made!

Does anyone have experience of how the VR function looks when you use this lens on a video/film camera? It was designed for making stills so can we assume that it won't look weird sometimes if we use it on a video camera? (I have no idea.. just asking..)

[underachiever]

Right on Gibby... The most silly thing about the auto-functions = unpro attitude is, that the people who make the comments are the same people that needs to employ an assistant to pull focus... LMAO

[Michael Hastings]

The notion that someone who uses an auto function on a camera, or for that matter uses a camera system that has some auto-function capabilities, is somehow not a professional...

I didn't mean to suggest that using autofunctions was unprofessional, I agree with pretty much everything you said. My point was that the RED with no autofocus isn't any different than the highend video cameras.

I think the truth is it has been just too difficult/expensive to incorporate autofocus into large B4 type lenses and the video camera heads that use them - but I can remember talking to a Sony product manager that used the excuse that "real professionals" wouldn't use autofocus.

Personally, I shoot with both broadcast cameras and with "prosumer" cameras - and I am happy to use autofocus and autoiris anytime it will work as well or better than manual. I know good videographers that use autoiris 80% of the time (often in conjunction with the + or - halfstop override) and others that are almost always manual.

BTW I suspect people coming from the video world will initially miss autoiris a lot more than they miss autofocus.


PS Think about the fact that none of the broadcast/EFP shoulder type cameras e.g Varicam, F900, etc. have autofocus. I think these cameras should have autofocus by now, but the thinking seems to be that a professional is supposed to be anticipating focus so wouldn't want AF since it is normally reacting rather than anticipating.

[Steve Gibby]

I’m singing to the choir here Mike. My last post and this one are not pointed at you, but rather at industry attitudes in general.

Auto functions have distinct uses in the image capturing process. Being one of the guys who works in acquisition workflows that range from old school all-manual (film, some 2/3” work) to convergence school part manual/part auto (2/3”, ½”), up to pure run ‘n gun all auto (1/3”), I’ve learned to match the equipment and style of shooting to the project, segment, or scene at hand, and go get the images. I simply match the tool and the style of using it to the task at hand, without prejudice toward equipment or styles of shooting. If everyone in the image generating industry had this same attitude, there would be a lot less time spent judging others equipment used, and a lot more time spent opening our minds to the possibilities that convergent technology enables.

If someone wants to concentrate their shooting to an all-manual field workflow, I say go for it. Conversely, if someone feels moved to concentrate their shooting to an all-auto field workflow, I say go for it. The caveat being – make sure your shooting style matches the style needed for the projects you do. I have no script running in my head that tells me “You can’t shoot auto-functions”, but rather a script running that says “Use auto-functions when it makes sense”. If ego or peer pressure is keeping a shooter from spreading their skill sets and shooting in an ever wider collection of genres and styles, and that keeps him/her from reaching their full potential as a shooter, and consequently also limits his/her revenue generating potential, then IMO they should reconsider their attitudes and approach.

I work along side with, and employ cinematographers, videographers, and still photographers who capture amazing images! I’ve developed a healthy respect for all of their skills, craft expressions, and equipment choices – and I’ve learned from all of them. In the process, I’ve learned that in each discipline there are shooters who can do some incredible things with camera systems - which their critics on the others side of the judgment fence couldn’t do unless they swallowed their pride and learned those skills. Respect should be a two-way street, but for some reason many old school guys seem to feel that all respect should flow to them from everyone else, and new school guys readily buy into that scenario for some reason.

As the formerly separate film, television/video, and still photo industries converge, it’s age-old industry attitudes, traditions, prejudices, and pride that created the “If you shoot any auto functions, you aren’t a pro” attitude, and those same factors that are prolonging it. I’ve personally moved way beyond that paradigm, to a “Match the tool, and how I use it, to the project at hand” mode of operation. I give respect for others equipment and creative choices – and I ask for respect for mine in return.

What does all this have to do with RED One? RED One was conceived and has been developed as a D-cinema camera that was also intended to be able to be used in a wide variety of EFP genres. RED has chosen to make their camera an all-manual camera because of its primary target of D-cinema use. For non-hardlined and hardlined EFP use of RED One there are necessarily workarounds to smooth out the field acquisition workflow for certain genres and styles. Some of those workarounds will involve 3rd party accessories, and some may be developed by RED. Either way, I support the development of those workarounds that enable an easier EFP acquisition workflow. If Birger, View Factor, RED, or anyone else can engineer a way to get increased auto functions with RED One, with the camera or lenses, I think that will simply enable more acquisition and genre options with an already amazingly utilitarian camera system. I say, “Go for it!”

Side note: I think the combination of zebra and histogram available on RED One, viewable in the periphery of both the EVF and LCD, and quickly adjustable, will seriously smooth out the learning curve for traditional video shooters who are used to the occasional or frequent use of auto iris.

[Friedrich Moser]

BTW I suspect people coming from the video world will initially miss autoiris a lot more than they miss autofocus.

I for myself can say that I am much more comfortable with shooting all manually - because it gives me the feeling of "having all under control". But I have to admit that I learned shooting on Beta SP, which is quite reverse the way most of the non-filmschool-cameramen came into the job. I just don't feel secure of having made the right choices, if - like on my HDV - something is set to "auto". So, basicly it's a psychological thing.

What I am anxoius to know instead, is the performance of the EVF and the LCD in certain conditions: Do I have focussed well? Are the colours reliable? But that is something I'll check out at the IBC. In general I can say for me (and for me only): the more manual, the better I feel about it.

PS That's also the reason why I really hate M$-Word!:sick:

Regards, Friedrich

[Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso]

I dont know what to get for the RED:
- EOS mount
- Nikon F mount

If i get the nikon mount i will buy the 17-55 and 70-200 mm lenses for sure which i think are superb.
But EOS lenses are a bit cheaper and might work better with the birger mount?

I allready have theses lenses but i could sell them easily to buy new ones (either Canon or Nikon) so i dont want to decide upon the lenses i allready have:

Nikon: 17-35 f2.8, 50mm, 105 f2.5, 180 f2.8 and 300 f4
EOS: 28 f2.8, 50mm, 85 f1.8 and 70-200 f2.8

[Sanjin Jukic]

Macgregor,

What do you mean?

- EOS mount
- Nikon F mount

"Ordinary" Nikon F mount (for manual lenses only) you could get from RED

EOS Canon automatic focus mount you could get from Birger.

What you can do: With Nikon F mount from RED keep all A, AI-S and AF Nikon lenses to work in manual mode.

EOS-Birger is MOSTLY for Canon EOS lenses (AUTO FOCUS)
BUT it is even more when you could attach adapters for the other mounts like
M42 lenses, Leica R lenses, Hasselblad-Zeiss lenses, Rollei lenses QB SL 35 2000, Olympus OM Lenses,
Contax/Yashica CO/Y Lenses.

ALL MANUAL LENSES.

Impressive.

[Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso]

As far as i understand Birger will deliver an electronically controlled Nikon F mount (same as EOS?) and then we can use the latest Nikon lenses,which dont have iris ring and also are DX format developed.

WHy do i prefer the Birger Nikon F mount to the standard RED Nikon mount even when i allraedy have some nice Nikon lenses? Because for example the nikkor 70-200 VR delivers much better quality than the 80-200 for example. Same with the 17-35 being replaced by a new DX lense too.

[Darwin]

Being a Nikon guy myself, I must say the quality of the 80-200 is top notch stuff. I sold my 80-200 and got the 70-200mm for the VR. And the replacement for the 17-35mm in the DX is the 17-55mm. And I would say not so much being replaced as I would say the 17-35mm was ment for FF and the 17-55 was made for the DX size chip.

[Chris Burket]

When the assistant glances at the camera, how will they know what distance the lense is focused at? Will there be some sort of LED readout that comes from the lense, displaying the distance? I know the lenses are marked, but the markings are on top of the lense and very tiny. Or will you need to use a marking ring for each lense? The marking ring wouldn't be bad, as long as there is zero play in the FF unit. If its an LED readout of some kind, I would make it adjustable so it can be calibrated with a tape as I'm sure the focus marks on the lenses can be slightly off with time and use.

[Gregory Karydis]

OK, I know this may sound like a straightforward decision but for me it isn't.
If I get the NiKon mount then I'll have to buy all kinds of glass (the 17-35 being among them)
If I get the EOS Mount I can use my existing:
16-35 f2.8L
50 f1L
85 f1.2L
70-200 IS f2.8L
MPE 65 f2.8

Now the question is; has anyone had any experience with the MPE 65 lens on film?
this is canon's site for it http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=155&modelid=7325
I'd love to be able to use it (even just for fun)

On the other hand, if I buy a Nikon mount I won't have to get into all the trouble os setting the IRIS and stuff.

[chuck colburn]

When the assistant glances at the camera, how will they know what distance the lense is focused at? Will there be some sort of LED readout that comes from the lense, displaying the distance? I know the lenses are marked, but the markings are on top of the lense and very tiny. Or will you need to use a marking ring for each lense? The marking ring wouldn't be bad, as long as there is zero play in the FF unit. If its an LED readout of some kind, I would make it adjustable so it can be calibrated with a tape as I'm sure the focus marks on the lenses can be slightly off with time and use.

Hi Chris,

It's fairly easy to make a mechanical or an electrical follow focus unit with next to zero backlash. Except for the housing most of the componets are off the shelf items. Where the problem lays is that most still camera lenses (there are exceptions but they are pricy) have inherent slop in their mechanics as it is not such a critical parameter for still photo use.

Chuck

[Sanjin Jukic]

With Birger Nikon F, Canon EOS or Sigma mounts we still have to see how it will work in a real world situation of 4K moving images acquisition.

I stay with manual option in the beginning even if I would have Birger EOS. Only in the case of wild life shooting for example with super telephoto lenses 300 mm and up, auto focus would help a lot.

[Michael Hastings]

With Birger Nikon F, Canon EOS or Sigma mounts we still have to see how it will work in a real world situation of 4K movie images acquisition.

I stay with manual option in the beginning even if I would have Birger EOS I will work with manual option. Only in a case of wild life shooting for example with super telephoto lenses 300 mm and up, auto focus would help a lot.

THE Birger mount does not do autofocus, what it does do is allow you to A) use Canon AF lenses that do not have any way to manually adjust iris, so the Birger mount lets you adjust iris through an electronic interface in the mount similar to what is on the SLR camera. and 2) manually focus the lens through the electronic interface, rather than directly turning the focus ring.


Hi Chris,

It's fairly easy to make a mechanical or an electrical follow focus unit with next to zero backlash. Except for the housing most of the componets are off the shelf items. Where the problem lays is that most still camera lenses (there are exceptions but they are pricy) have inherent slop in their mechanics as it is not such a critical parameter for still photo use.

Chuck

Chuck: since the birger mount and controller work by sending commands to the lens on where to focus and these (the AF lenses at least) lenses are made to accurately autofocus in milliseconds on a regular SLR body, I suspect with the birger mount it will be very accurate with very little slop. Erik could probably tell us more on that when he gets back from vacation, since that doesn't have anything to do with the RED camera.

[Sanjin Jukic]

THE Birger mount does not do autofocus, what it does do is allow you to A) use Canon AF lenses that do not have any way to manually adjust iris, so the Birger mount lets you adjust iris through an electronic interface in the mount similar to what is on the SLR camera. and 2) manually focus the lens through the electronic interface, rather than directly turning the focus ring.

http://www.birger.com/graphics/cmount225.jpg

OK not a standard "autofocus" but something like below>>

Birger wrote for the EF232 adapter:
"The EF232 adapter allows the use of Canon EF-mount lenses without requiring the use of a Canon EOS camera body. With the Adapter, focus and iris functions of the lens are precisely controlled over the serial port. The beauty of the Canon EOS lens system is that all of the actuators for the lens are incorporated. But the difficulty is that many of the Canon lenses can not even be manually focused without being attached to a Canon EOS Camera body. That is of course, until now. The EF232 Adapter takes the place of the Camera body, giving functionality such as highly repeatable focus control, and iris control in ½ stop increments."
Link>>
http://www.birger.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=ef232_home

Birger FAQ:
"12. How do I determine the range of the focus and aperture on my lens?
Using the zero and infinity commands (mi and mz for focus, mc and mo for aperture) will read out the maximum and minimum values available for the lens in use."
Link>>
http://www.birger.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=faq

Birger wrote:
"EF232 Lens Interface Protocol Definition"
Link>>
http://www.birger.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=ef232_softintf#focus

http://www.birger.com/graphics/ef232crl225.jpg

[Erik Widding]

OK not a standard "autofocus" but something like below>>

Sanjin, Aquavideo did have it right. "auto" implies that the focus point is selected "automatically" by the system. This is quite simply not the case. The mount commands the lens to go to a preselected focus point. Our mounts simply use the actuators already inside the lenses (placed there for the SLR body to perform "automatic" features) to effect repeatable, fast and precise control of focus and iris.

"autofocus" is a feature we currently have in the concept phase. It will be an additional module to this system. No pricing, no release date, no announcement... yet. The announced mounts will work with this additional module if, and when, we release it.

I am back from holiday, and will get to a few more questions (including pricing) towards the end of the day

[Darwin]

Is there any support for lens stabilization?

[Erik Widding]

Is there any support for lens stabilization?

Yes. Stabilization works.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Erik, thanks for the explanation.

[Zane Roach]

These lens mounts, through a mechanical adapter, can also be used on a RedRock M2, and other 35mm adapters.


This is has my attention! :)



Through the viewfinder. The lens mount will report it to the camera, using either the Cooke or Fuji lens protocols. The RED camera supports these protocols.

But how will we know the set aperture on the Redrock M2 or other adapters?

Thanks

[Peter Kullmann]

The Birger adapter + Canon EOS L series lenses seem to be to be a worthwhile option, especially if you want / need to change lenses often and quickly and have no time for all the time consuming follow-focus hassle (not to mention the price difference to PL-mount lenses). But does anyone know, how these canon lenses perform against Cooke / Zeiss / Angenieux PL lenses?

tnx

[Peter Kullmann]

... perform in terms of optical quality that is.

[Darwin]

Do we have any price on the mount or follow focus unit yet?

[Vicente Nogueira]

If the Birger wheel could incorporate a second mechanism so that it could do both focus and iris, such as Bebob's Foxi, it would be great (see link below).

http://16x9inc.com/products/bebob/be-foxi.html

I agree that having three buttons in the adaptor is not ideal, it would be better to have an analog control such as a wheel for iris control in it, but buttons are better than nothing.

[Michael Hastings]

If the Birger wheel could incorporate a second mechanism so that it could do both focus and iris, such as Bebob's Foxi, it would be great (see link below).

http://16x9inc.com/products/bebob/be-foxi.html

I agree that having three buttons in the adaptor is not ideal, it would be better to have an analog control such as a wheel for iris control in it, but buttons are better than nothing.

I think it does have the wheel as the primary method of setting iris, the idea of the three buttons is you would still have iris control even if you didn't have the remote unit hooked up - say in a single camera handheld situation.

Erik can confirm this. BTW Erik if you could put a three (or would it be 4) conductor mini connector on the mount too it would make my life on the underwater housing side really easy. With that said we will probably work through the remote you provide, but even there a separate connector that would let us parallel those switches/pots would really help. Or is the remote just the switches/pots and the RS232 stuff on the mount itself - i.e. where do the RS-232 commands originate?

[Vicente Nogueira]

AquaVideoRed206,
This is not what I meant, sorry if I was not clear. In my second paragraph I was talking only about controls directly in the adaptor (without an external large wheel connected to it). The BirgerEngineer mentioned the possibility of putting three buttons directly in the adaptor to control the iris. I believe that a small wheel directly in the adaptor, or around its circumference as already suggested, would be better, but if it is not possible, the three buttons would be better than nothing.

[Michael Hastings]

AquaVideoRed206,
This is not what I meant, sorry if I was not clear. In my second paragraph I was talking only about controls directly in the adaptor (without an external large wheel connected to it). The BirgerEngineer mentioned the possibility of putting three buttons directly in the adaptor to control the iris. I believe that a small wheel directly in the adaptor, or around its circumference as already suggested, would be better, but if it is not possible, the three buttons would be better than nothing.

I think the key is the 3 buttons are an easy, last minute, (better than nothing) addition to the product, but a wheel would be a substantial electro/mechanical design/engineering task.

[Erik Widding]

I think the key is the 3 buttons are an easy, last minute, (better than nothing) addition to the product, but a wheel would be a substantial electro/mechanical design/engineering task.

Correct Aqua. These last minute changes are: the programmable buttons on the mount; Finner's whip attachment; TJ's toolless hinged clamp.

I thank everyone for their patience with us as we get this announcement, final pricing and the reservation system ready to go.

I am very excited by all of the emails and PMs that I have received regarding this system.

[Mark Crabtree]

Hi Erik,

As you probably know, Red #8 is going to be tested in lots of configurations with lots of lenses soon after it is shipped. Many here will make decisions based on those tests. If for some reason you are not ready to ship with the first cameras, you should make a priority to get your mount to these guys so it will be included in their tests.

Mark

[Vincent S]

I thank everyone for their patience with us as we get this announcement, final pricing and the reservation system ready to go.

So can we reserve and is the price up some place?

[Frank Weeks]

I thank everyone for their patience with us as we get this announcement, final pricing and the reservation system ready to go.

I am very excited by all of the emails and PMs that I have received regarding this system.

Looking foreword to your announcement Eric. Thanks for your work and contribution to the forum.

[PaulClements]

In addition to the open Birger protocol, the lens mount also speaks Fuji and Cooke-like lens protocols so it can be used with existing lens control, data-logging and data-display equipment.

Is it be possible to take data from a Canon or Nikon lens and convert it to /i data for the camera to record?

Afterall the Canon and Nikon lenses must be sending such data to their respective SLR bodies, could it not be intercepted and converted to fit with the Cooke's /i standards?

[Erik Widding]

Is it be possible to take data from a Canon or Nikon lens and convert it to /i data for the camera to record?

This is the intention. The controller will speak a protocol that the camera will understand, to allow for data logging. /i compatible is what I was referring to as "Cooke-like". This protocol does not allow for control of the lens, only logging of data.

The broadcast lens protocols allow for both control and logging of data. The SuperGrip is a control device, so supporting only /i is not good enough...

The Birger lens controller platform is basically a Babel Fish.:nerd:

[PaulClements]

So the advantage of using lenses with /i will be lessened because Canon and Nikon's will effectively be logging the same data then (focusing distance, aperture, depth-of-field, hyperfocal distance, serial number, owner data, lens type and focal length in both metric and footage measurements and for zoom lenses, the zoom position.)?

That's excellent, I hadn't really understood it when I first read it.

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Hi Erik

will you be at IBC Amsterdam? Or (it's a long way to come), will we be able to see the Birger mounts on the RED stand?

I don't know how that would fit with RED's business plan, but I think a lot of us are planning on the Birger mount being an integral part of our RED camera kit

[PaulClements]

Eric, will the follow focus be reversable?

In other words at the flick of a switch the user can turn anti-clockwise or clockwise for either focus long or short.

Also can the distance turned on the follow focus to the movement of the lens be altered for greater accuracy on shorter focus pulls?

[Evin Grant]

The Birger lens controller platform is basically a Babel Fish.:nerd:

Does it come with a Towel?

[Karl H]

How does this setup all work exactly? Please forgive my ignorance but I've read through this whole thread and I'm still unsure as to how it all comes together and functions.

I get that the unit is not geared but directly controls the motor of the lens via bluetooth. So how is this done? Is a remote provided, or do we have to have a laptop with software installed? with the remote can you set focus points for it to go from and to? Do you have timings over this control for fast or slow focus pulls, or is it a fixed motor speed? Do the EOS lenses have to be USM for it to be a smooth transition?

Lets say you shifted focus to point B as your actor hits his mark, (so you use focus marks and a remote/software to control the motor) but at the end of the shot your actor leans forward a little taking him out of focus; can you then take control of the wheel directly to fine tune the focus after the automatic focus mark has been pulled? (or do you have to switch it from manual to motor/bluetooth controled?)

Also it was said there might be another wheel that controls the iris too; is this for riding the iris only? can the iris be locked and set via the remote unit without another wheel?

Sorry for all the questions but I think I'd need to hear a workflow for using this product to understand what it does fully.

[Michael Hastings]

Does it come with a Towel?

I wasn't supposed to tell you this but Erik informed me that it will come with a lunch box in the shape of the REDONE camera (no production pak - that's extra)

[tj williams]

Hi Darkline
You are making this too complicated. This wheel just duplicates what a focus puller would use if it were geared to the lens.
1. the remote is wired to the mount, or as I understand it can be wireless through blutooth. No laptop etc is needed
2. Focus speed is set by the speed the asst. turns the "wheel"
3. If the subject leans forward the asst simply moves the wheel slightly to correct the focus.
4. There are no auto. moves to preset. Most assts. would not want that.
5. The iris is locked wherever you stop either the wheel or where you leave off moving it with the buttons.
6. Iris pulls are done just like focus.

The workflow of this product is: attach the wheel to the mount or turn on the power with the not yet seen blutooth accessory. The wheel autosets to the specific lens. Using marks on the wheel the asst turns the wheel to move focus or iris.
If I've misspoken here I hope Eric or others will quickly jump in and correct me so we don't create more confusion!

[Karl H]

thanks TJ

I have a better understanding but still unsure about a few things.

If the wheel mounts to the lens to control focus, and thats that, what does the remote do? unless....

you say the wheel controls the iris too, so is there a switcher that toggles the wheel between control of iris or focus? is that what the remote does?

finally

"5. The iris is locked wherever you stop either the wheel or where you leave off moving it with the buttons."

Which buttons are you refering too? I thought the main problem on the EOS lenses was that there was no manual control of the Iris on the lens itself.

thanks a lot TJ

[Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso]

So where are the prices???????

[tj williams]

HI Darkline
The wheel only controls the lens by wire or wireless there is no physical geared control, except by a possible outboard motor control to relate to some as yet to be determined motors (Red?)
Focus and Iris are unsure: Probably the best set up is two wheels one for focus one for iris. toggle is also possible not yet announced imo.
If you don't move the wheel more or push more buttons the iris will stay in the same place.
buttons on the mount have been proposed.

Hey Mcgregor.... I've made some machinist changes to a short run product before and it takes time to get back costs and get a work up.... Eric is way ahead of the curve on this and is putting in much - to - be - appreciated.... last minute changes. Which I for one am more than willing to wait for as I have nothing to put them on yet.

[mdo]

Did the prices come out on this yet?

[Brook Willard]

How on earth did I miss this thread???

[HD Hildebrand]

How on earth did I miss this thread???

Yeah, it is a good one. I keep tuning in for prices though. Looks promising that the product release could coincide with the release of RED - fingers crossed.

[Erik Widding]

Yeah, it is a good one. I keep tuning in for prices though. Looks promising that the product release could coincide with the release of RED - fingers crossed.

Twist my arm... though we are still working out final details for the announcement I will pre-announce pricing...

The lens mount will be $950 and the cable to connect it to the RED camera lens port will be $75. The follow focus knob that mounts on the camera rails is $300 and the cable to attach this to the lens mount is also $75. We will have a wireless controller, with an LCD and two control surfaces (a knob and a slider) available in October for $600. Development of this controller will be public, on reduser.net.

When I first met Jim, he said something along the lines of: engineer a great solution, charge a fair price, and the volume will happen. (Sorry Jim, if I butchered this). One of the other things I have learned by watching Jim/RED is that the loyalty of the early adopters should be rewarded. So, anybody who reserves the first four items listed by the end of August (with a 20% refundable deposit), and schedules/takes delivery by the end of the calendar year, will receive our wireless controller for free.

As time goes on, the lens mount and camera cable will be the minimum configuration, as data will be sent to the camera (in the same way a Cooke or Broadcast lens does) and control surfaces such as CVB/viewfactor's remote and RED's supergrip are planned to be compatible. Prior to the integration with the camera, and/or availability of our wireless controller, a Palm PDA or laptop with Bluetooth will be required for setting up the system, and adjusting things like knob direction and gain. An appropriate PDA is the Palm Tungsten E2 ($199) or the Palm TX ($299). Any Bluetooth device with a terminal emulator and a 1SPP profile will also work fine (i.e. a laptop).

I will start a new thread in the next day or two, with current images of the prototypes, a complete feature list, pricing/reservations and any other pertinent information.

[PaulClements]

Thanks Eric! Very generous offer, so $1400 for the mount, cables ff knob AND the wireless controller. Awesome stuff!

So deposit before end of august will be $280 correct?

[Anders Holck]

Nice, it's all coming together now.
Will any of this stuff be shown at IBC?

[Erik Widding]

Thanks Erik! Very generous offer, so $1400 for the mount, cables ff knob AND the wireless controller. Awesome stuff! So deposit before end of august will be $280 correct?

Correct.


Nice, it's all coming together now.
Will any of this stuff be shown at IBC?

I may go to IBC, but we definitely won't have a booth. Haven't been to Amsterdam yet...:innocent: but will probably decide that it provides more value to schedule/customers to stay in Boston... :unsure:

[HD Hildebrand]

So, anybody who reserves the first four items listed by the end of August (with a 20% refundable deposit), and schedules/takes delivery by the end of the calendar year, will receive our wireless controller for free.

Consider this a reservation right now. Tell me how, when and where and I'm in.

Cheers,D
ale

[Matt Uhry]

The lens mount will be $950 and the cable to connect it to the RED camera lens port will be $75. The follow focus knob that mounts on the camera rails is $300 and the cable to attach this to the lens mount is also $75. We will have a wireless controller, with an LCD and two control surfaces (a knob and a slider) available in October for $600. Development of this controller will be public, on reduser.net.


This is going to be huge for the guys who take the still lens route - Remote focus and Iris at low cost.

Can't wait to see it in action.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Evin Grant]

Now this is what I'm talking about!
Erik, you are my hero, now If I can jus get my hands on a pre-production unit for the LART!
Hint, hint.

P.S. I'm asuming it will be the same price for Nikon AF as the Canon EOS no?
And will it drive the screw type Nikkors or only the AFS?

[T. Glen Phelps]

Erik,

I'M IN!!! Save one for me.

[Erik Widding]

now If I can jus get my hands on a pre-production unit for the LART! Hint, hint.

Already promised Gibby...


P.S. I'm asuming it will be the same price for Nikon AF as the Canon EOS no? And will it drive the screw type Nikkors or only the AFS?

We are only promising AF-S support. As we have been working on the protocol, it seems Nikon accounted for the backlash problem rather well. I need to play with a lot more AF lenses before I know if this will actually be a usable feature. If it is, we will look into adding a screw drive for AF lenses. Either way, we will charge the same price as the Canon.

[Vincent S]

This is great news. This whole revolution of thinking out of the box, this is what RED is in the film world, and what this adapter will help bring to the cine lens world.

Thanks for the great incentive Erik.

[Jaime Vallés]

Fantastic news, Erik! The pricing sounds entirely reasonable, and in line with the rest of the RED modus operandi. Anyone thinking of using still lenses with their RED (like me) would be crazy to not buy your lens mount.

The big question now is... Canon or Nikon???

[Karl H]

If this works smoothly and accurately then its the way to go for me.

I confess I'm new to understanding FF in depth, but it seems to radically undercut the other follow focus systems out there for what it is offering.

I cant wait to hear how it performs on gibbys test

[Zakaree Sandberg]

is this just for canon? or nikon as well?

[Mark B.]

Sounds like a reasonable price. Looks like my Canon/Sigma glass will get some use after all.

[Vince Arvidson]

I just want to clarify whether or not the nikon birger mount completely replaces the red nikon mount or whether both are required?

Count me in for the package either way! This is one of the most exciting developments in ages.

Vince

[PaulClements]

Yes you don't need to buy the nikon mount from Red, just the Birger mount. You would take off the PL mount that comes as standard and insert the Birger Mount in it's place using the 4 screws on the front (As seen in the pic on page 1).

Frankly I can't see why anyone will bother buying the $500 Nikon mount now, seems to have been made redundant by Eric and Co at Birger, when for just $900 more you get a follow focus, remote control, and ability to control the lens!

[Larry]

This is excellent news. Thanks Erik, I'm also going to make an order for the Canon mount during August.

[A. Bastaki]

here comes august 1st.
________
Galleria ferrari (http://www.ferrari-wiki.com/wiki/Galleria_Ferrari)

[Michael Hastings]

The lens mount will be $950 and the cable to connect it to the RED camera lens port will be $75. The follow focus knob that mounts on the camera rails is $300 and the cable to attach this to the lens mount is also $75. We will have a wireless controller, with an LCD and two control surfaces (a knob and a slider) available in October for $600. Development of this controller will be public, on reduser.net.



Erik, it sounds great. Is the FF knob wired or wireless?

Without the wireless controller due in October, is iris control only through the buttons on the mount itself (assuming you incorporated that) or is there another wired input?

If there are wires, can we get to these through a jack so we can just have pots in our underwater housing or are we going to need a smart controller in the housing?

Anyway, great work.

[Dreamcine]

I understand how the focus and iris will work but how will the zoom work with the mount? Say I get a Canon EOS zoom lens, will I be able to zoom in during a shot at a variable speed and feather the start and stop? Will I be able to wrack focus and zoom at the same time? Half my work is high end TV spots and music videos where snap zooms are common and the other half is corporate trade stuff where they love the pretty zooms with the feathered starts and stops. Do I need another gizmo to make this happen?

[Michael Hastings]

I understand how the focus and iris will work but how will the zoom work with the mount? Say I get a Canon EOS zoom lens, will I be able to zoom in during a shot at a variable speed and feather the start and stop? Will I be able to wrack focus and zoom at the same time? Half my work is high end TV spots and music videos where snap zooms are common and the other half is corporate trade stuff where they love the pretty zooms with the feathered starts and stops. Do I need another gizmo to make this happen?

Zoom is a manual function of the lens. It will take a separate servo system to drive the zoom - I think they may be working on it but it is a completely different animal requiring mount to the matte box arms. Since the lens give zoom position the birger mount can provide some feedback to a zoom controller that will be useful.

[Edmund Boyle]

When I first met Jim, he said something along the lines of: engineer a great solution, charge a fair price, and the volume will happen. (Sorry Jim, if I butchered this). One of the other things I have learned by watching Jim/RED is that the loyalty of the early adopters should be rewarded. So, anybody who reserves the first four items listed by the end of August (with a 20% refundable deposit), and schedules/takes delivery by the end of the calendar year, will receive our wireless controller for free.


I will start a new thread in the next day or two, with current images of the prototypes, a complete feature list, pricing/reservations and any other pertinent information.

Thanks Erik for maintaining the ethos of RED with your offer and pricing package. You have another customer here. Let us know how to order soon.

P.S. Somebody mentioned on a previous thread about the whole RED phenonena and on how business is done will find its way on to a future Harvard course. I think this is true and it will be a business model used worlwide.

Openness, Ingenuity, Customer orientated feedback, Ethics etc.etc...

Its great being part of the RED revolution:red_bandana:

[Clint Johnson]

Twist my arm... though we are still working out final details for the announcement I will pre-announce pricing...

The lens mount will be $950 and the cable to connect it to the RED camera lens port will be $75. The follow focus knob that mounts on the camera rails is $300 and the cable to attach this to the lens mount is also $75. We will have a wireless controller, with an LCD and two control surfaces (a knob and a slider) available in October for $600. Development of this controller will be public, on reduser.net.

When I first met Jim, he said something along the lines of: engineer a great solution, charge a fair price, and the volume will happen. (Sorry Jim, if I butchered this). One of the other things I have learned by watching Jim/RED is that the loyalty of the early adopters should be rewarded. So, anybody who reserves the first four items listed by the end of August (with a 20% refundable deposit), and schedules/takes delivery by the end of the calendar year, will receive our wireless controller for free.

As time goes on, the lens mount and camera cable will be the minimum configuration, as data will be sent to the camera (in the same way a Cooke or Broadcast lens does) and control surfaces such as CVB/viewfactor's remote and RED's supergrip are planned to be compatible. Prior to the integration with the camera, and/or availability of our wireless controller, a Palm PDA or laptop with Bluetooth will be required for setting up the system, and adjusting things like knob direction and gain. An appropriate PDA is the Palm Tungsten E2 ($199) or the Palm TX ($299). Any Bluetooth device with a terminal emulator and a 1SPP profile will also work fine (i.e. a laptop).

I will start a new thread in the next day or two, with current images of the prototypes, a complete feature list, pricing/reservations and any other pertinent information.

Sold.

[DAServices]

Sold! Do you plan on making different length cables for remote mount. I prefer not to use the wireless at least when on the aircraft mount.

[PaulClements]

Sold! Do you plan on making different length cables for remote mount. I prefer not to use the wireless at least when on the aircraft mount.

Use the remote control or PDA rather than being hardwired to the mount. Length of cables is not an issue.

[Erik Widding]

Sold! Do you plan on making different length cables for remote mount. I prefer not to use the wireless at least when on the aircraft mount.

Yes. At a minimum we will offer an "on camera", an "off camera" and the option for a custom length. We will charge a premium for custom, but it won't be that bad.

Anybody want to suggest what the standard "off camera" length should be?

[ericyoung]

Yes. At a minimum we will offer an "on camera", an "off camera" and the option for a custom length. We will charge a premium for custom, but it won't be that bad.

Anybody want to suggest what the standard "off camera" length should be?

Well, how long is the longest professional non-hothead, non-telescopic crane? Plus a good bit of slack! :tongue:

[PaulClements]

At such a low pricepoint for the remote I just can't see why anyone would want to bother with an "off camera" wired option. Can anyone think of a reason why?

[ericyoung]

Because wireless requiires power, and potentially has interference/signal strength problems. And not just when out of line of sight - working in studios, you can get dead spots.

[PaulClements]

Fair points.

I imagine the birger mount will be great for steadicam owners like yourself Eric. a really quick way of swapping out lenses.

[Erik Widding]

At such a low pricepoint for the remote I just can't see why anyone would want to bother with an "off camera" wired option. Can anyone think of a reason why?

To add a few of my own.. The wireless controller is using BlueTooth, which is in the "garbage band" shared with things like microwave ovens. We already have a bunch of systems that are flown (i.e. airplanes and helicopters), and these customers have a strong dislike of extra radios on flight vehicles.

The wireless remote control will have a LEMO connector to talk to the accessory bus on the lens mount, so wired is always an available option, so long as you have an extra cable.

[PaulClements]

Oh ok, i thought you were using 802.11 for your wireless as well.

[Erik Widding]

Oh ok, i thought you were using 802.11 for your wireless as well.

Same band, same issues.

[Michael Hastings]

The wireless remote control will have a LEMO connector to talk to the accessory bus on the lens mount, so wired is always an available option, so long as you have an extra cable.

Erik: does that accessory bus allow use of switches/pots to control iris and focus or is it an RS 232 port and I need to get to work on my controller board or better still is there or could you put another lemo on your off camera controller that would parallel the switches/pots or whatever.

All I am trying to do is simplify control in our housing, but that parallel capability might be useful for other people too.

[Larry]

Anybody want to suggest what the standard "off camera" length should be?

As already mentioned the off-camera length should allow a crane of reasonable length and helicopter/airplane use. So, how about 7-8 meters?

[Erik Widding]

Erik: does that accessory bus allow use of switches/pots to control iris and focus or is it an RS 232 port and I need to get to work on my controller board or better still is there or could you put another lemo on your off camera controller that would parallel the switches/pots or whatever.

All I am trying to do is simplify control in our housing, but that parallel capability might be useful for other people too.

The accessory bus is an RS232 port and power. Each unit has to repeat the data from one port to the next to make it into a bus. I am still thinking about what we want to do to make sure that everything is as simple as you will want. We definitely will not be putting an additional connector on the lens mount.

Ideas range from: offering the follow focus knob without a knob and a more appropriate shaft for incorporating into a housing; to: offering a breakout board with a brain that allows a bunch of pots and switches to be attached. Our remote and FF knob use magnetic encoders rather than pots.

[tj williams]

HI Eric
Seems to me like two wired cable lengths may be needed. One off camera for Tyler uw housings etc about 2 feet and one long enough for light weight cranes cam/jimmy etc which currently go to about 40" length on the arm plus about 3 ft on the camera end and another slack to ground when using remote desk type control so probably about 60'
Lookin good!!!! I'm also looking for the order form?
TJ

[Tonaci Tran]

Sorry if this has already been asked, but how easy is the swap between the birger lens mount and pl mount and how long does it typcially take to do?

[Mr. Paul White]

There's an open thread on subject:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3517

[Damien Molineaux]

Yes you don't need to buy the nikon mount from Red, just the Birger mount. You would take off the PL mount that comes as standard and insert the Birger Mount in it's place using the 4 screws on the front (As seen in the pic on page 1).

Frankly I can't see why anyone will bother buying the $500 Nikon mount now, seems to have been made redundant by Eric and Co at Birger, when for just $900 more you get a follow focus, remote control, and ability to control the lens!

(I second Brooks remark, I can't believe I missed this thread ! Maybe other still lens users have missed it to.)

I agree with Paul, but have one question, will the Birger Nikon mount allow to mount any Nikon lenses, such as my stock of AI lenses ? I know I won't benefit from any advantages of the Birger mount, it's just I don't want to have to buy two Nikon mounts.

In fact, if the above is possible, I think Birger and Red should should work things out and offer only one Canon and one Nikon mount, what's the point of having these two options. Imagine someone buying a Nikon (or Canon) mount from Red, and then finding out about the Birger mount, what a bummer.

So are reservations open ?

Cheers,
Damien

[chuck colburn]

Damien,

I believe all Nikon lenses are the same flange focale depth. So unless I'm missing something, you should be able to use any of their lenses on the electronic mount.

Chuck

Except the early S mount lenses.

[Michael Hastings]

The accessory bus is an RS232 port and power. Each unit has to repeat the data from one port to the next to make it into a bus. I am still thinking about what we want to do to make sure that everything is as simple as you will want. We definitely will not be putting an additional connector on the lens mount.

Ideas range from: offering the follow focus knob without a knob and a more appropriate shaft for incorporating into a housing; to: offering a breakout board with a brain that allows a bunch of pots and switches to be attached. Our remote and FF knob use magnetic encoders rather than pots.

We use a 1/4" stainless shaft and I am happy to supply you with some.

[S. Um]

Will we be able to use the vibration reduction feature with this mount? I would think so because the VR is built into the lens and it just needs power.

Also, will the mount be able to maintain a constant lens aperture with variable aperture lenses? For example, for a zoom lens with aperture 2.8-4, can you automatically maintain a steady f/4 (or smaller) throughout the zoom range?

In ENG and EFP situations, sometimes there's no time to change lenses. I would love to use a Nikon 18-200 with the Red camera. I don't mind the smaller aperture because I need some DOF anyway.

[Darwin]

Will we be able to use the vibration reduction feature with this mount? I would think so because the VR is built into the lens and it just needs power.


Yes. Stabilization works.

I had already asked that.

[David Nardini]

I will start a new thread in the next day or two, with current images of the prototypes, a complete feature list, pricing/reservations and any other pertinent information.

Hello Mike (& reduser.net moderators),
Has this been set up ? Just wondering if there could be a specific BIRGER mount/adapter RedUser.net thread with latest news, updates, prices, how to order etc ...
Would help in monitoring what is what in a single location :)
Thanks

PS : any update on IBC2007 and if an EOS adapter will be on show ?

[S. Um]

I had already asked that.

Thank you. This is such a long thread, I must have missed that.

But this brings up a follow-up question on image stabilization. I was reading that Nikon lenses have 2 levels of stabilization: a low level for looking through the viewfinder, and a high level for when you actually take the picture. Since we are recording motion picture, would it be possible for Birger to turn on the high level at all times?

[Evin Grant]

That's not exactly correct, there are two modes to Nikon's VR, I & II. Mode I is for standard hand held where the VR system tries to take out the camera shake induced by your hands and body, mode two is for situations that are a little more violent, like riding in a car or off road, in these situation the VR does the best it can but doesn't try to smooth out the big bumps that would just result in a smeared image in mode one. These do work, when I was on Safari in East Africa the mode II gave me a few keepers bouncing around in the Land Crusier I wouldn't have had otherwise.
But don't expect to get consistently sharp results like that, it's just too hectic. Mode one on the other hand should do well to smoth out normal handheld tele shots.

[S. Um]

That's not exactly correct, there are two modes to Nikon's VR, I & II. Mode I is for standard hand held where the VR system tries to take out the camera shake induced by your hands and body, mode two is for situations that are a little more violent, like riding in a car or off road, in these situation the VR does the best it can but doesn't try to smooth out the big bumps that would just result in a smeared image in mode one. These do work, when I was on Safari in East Africa the mode II gave me a few keepers bouncing around in the Land Crusier I wouldn't have had otherwise.
But don't expect to get consistently sharp results like that, it's just too hectic. Mode one on the other hand should do well to smoth out normal handheld tele shots.

Thanks for clearing that up, Evin. I'd still like to see mode 2 supported if possible, because there will definitely be times when we will be shooting from cars, or even just walking with the camera. I wouldn't expect rock solid footage, but any vibration reduction would be helpful.

[chuck colburn]

That would be great. I wonder if it can do it at 60 f.p.s.

[Joel Kaye]

That would be great. I wonder if it can do it at 60 f.p.s.

Or even 24fps? Or is it optimized for stills.. or is it activated by shooting a shot? It would be incredible if we could get these camera lenses to help out when handholding. That would really add to the revolution.

[Evin Grant]

This will have to be tested to know for sure, I do have some doubts, I was under the impresion that the Nikon VR system uses the AF point data to some extent in stabilization, of course the Birger/Red One has no AF point so we'll have to wait and see if manual distance info is enough. As far as the mode I think this is more to do with the lens than the body, there is a phisical switch on the lens casing to engage the different modes.

[Darwin]

This will have to be tested to know for sure, I do have some doubts, I was under the impresion that the Nikon VR system uses the AF point data to some extent in stabilization, of course the Birger/Red One has no AF point so we'll have to wait and see if manual distance info is enough. As far as the mode I think this is more to do with the lens than the body, there is a phisical switch on the lens casing to engage the different modes.

I know exactly what you mean..You dont hear the VR motor kick in till the shutter is half way depressed. Can lead one to the conclusion it's working off the AF point.

[Dublin]

[QUOTESomebody mentioned on a previous thread about the whole RED phenonena and on how business is done will find its way on to a future Harvard course. I think this is true and it will be a business model used worlwide.:[/QUOTE]


I was thinking the same thing myself. If Red One works well....and I hope to put a deposit down soon...it will, I believe, rewrite product development in specialist areas.

[Dexter Gregoire]

Does anyone know if the Birger mount+ follow focus is going to compensate for some breathing still lenses do?

Or is that not possible?

[Erik Widding]

Does anyone know if the Birger mount+ follow focus is going to compensate for some breathing still lenses do?

Or is that not possible?

It is one of many features on a list for later. Once we either release our own zoom motor, or have integrated with the RED motor, we will look at implementing this. The real issue is the production of the calibration data.

We have ways to do this automagically... but that will require our auto-interactive focus module that we will not be announcing for some time...

The other request that comes quite often is aperture comensation on variable aperture zooms. Because of the quarter stop steps of the Canon iris mechanism, this feature may not be that interesting without some intervention in post. THis also requires a zoom motor.

[ericyoung]

HI Eric
Seems to me like two wired cable lengths may be needed. One off camera for Tyler uw housings etc about 2 feet and one long enough for light weight cranes cam/jimmy etc which currently go to about 40" length on the arm plus about 3 ft on the camera end and another slack to ground when using remote desk type control so probably about 60'
Lookin good!!!! I'm also looking for the order form?
TJ

Actually, make long, medium AND short cables that all have a mating locking plug at one end, and a socket the other. Like a kit of cables that allow you more flexibility in lengths by combining two or three of the cables to get intermediate or very long lengths.

A "premium" kit could maybe be two 2 foot, a 5 foot, a 20 foot and a 40 foot. Allows you to make 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 20, 22, 24, 25, 40, 42, 44, 45, 60, etc.

A "basic" kit could be just say two 2 foot, and a 5 foot?

There's probably a more "optimal" length sequence though!

[Erik Widding]

We are laying out the new circuit boards for the EF lens mount and FF knob this week. We will start shipping production units on 12 Septemeber. If LART occurs prior to this date we will provide preproduction units for testing.

The reservation forms will not be posted until early next week. I just haven't had a chance to take the new photographs of the models and proof read the feature list and forms. I am going to be out of the office for the remainder of the week, getting some much needed time on a golf course in upstate New York...:calm:

To be fair to all, we will extend the "free remote" offer until the close of IBC, 11 September 2007.

[Emanuel A.]

To be fair to all, we will extend the "free remote" offer until the close of IBC, 11 September 2007.US $600 value?

I'd probably order two mounts (Nikon & Canon). Will I have twice the offer or should I order from two different names in order to double my income? :)

[Michele Gavazzeni]

For sure the most interesting product ever made for still lenses!!!

I'll be a costumer for sure

[Martin Drew]

I would really like to see the Birger mount + FF on a RedOne at IBC. I think it would benefit Red to have it there even though it is not one of their products.

M

[PaulClements]

I'll second that Martin, was thinking the same thing earlier today.

[Michael Hastings]

Erik: could your follow focus knob have a center hole and buildup like this one in the photo. It would allow us to make a shaft to fit in that hole for our underwater housing but also might be useful for other purposes. If that hole could be 1/4" diameter and at least 3/8" long it would be very easy for us. If it needs to be some other diameter for some reason that is alright we can adapt. The key is having the buildup so we can insert a shaft and have a place to put a set screw.


We are laying out the new circuit boards for the EF lens mount and FF knob this week.

The reservation forms will not be posted until early next week. I just haven't had a chance to take the new photographs of the models and proof read the feature list and forms.

To be fair to all, we will extend the "free remote" offer until the close of IBC, 11 September 2007.

Thanks for the remote offer and the extension.

[ericyoung]

Erik: could your follow focus knob have a center hole and buildup like this one in the photo....

Isn't that centre hole for a focus whip - in which case if Erik includes one, it be nice if it was an industry standard size for this kind of accessory.

[Erik Widding]

Erik: could your follow focus knob have a center hole and buildup like this one in the photo. It would allow us to make a shaft to fit in that hole for our underwater housing but also might be useful for other purposes. If that hole could be 1/4" diameter and at least 3/8" long it would be very easy for us. If it needs to be some other diameter for some reason that is alright we can adapt. The key is having the buildup so we can insert a shaft and have a place to put a set screw.

We are going to put an ARRI Whip socket on the knob, That will take a whip such as the one that is currently sitting on my desk:
http://www.filmtools.com/cinetech-speed-crank.html

This can have its handle removed, and offers a 1/4" hole. Is this good enough?

If not, we can offer an alternate configuration which has the requested shaft configuration with a 1/4" hole and set screw instead of the shaft with the whip attachement and associated knob.

What do you think?

[Michael Hastings]

Erik, we can work with that and I like the idea of keeping it standard.

Will you be making your own whip, or should I buy one of those?


We are going to put an ARRI Whip socket on the knob, That will take a whip such as the one that is currently sitting on my desk:
http://www.filmtools.com/cinetech-speed-crank.html

This can have its handle removed, and offers a 1/4" hole. Is this good enough?

If not, we can offer an alternate configuration which has the requested shaft configuration with a 1/4" hole and set screw instead of the shaft with the whip attachement and associated knob.

What do you think?

[Emanuel A.]

Does anyone know if the Birger mount+ follow focus is going to compensate for some breathing still lenses do?

Or is that not possible?It is one of many features on a list for later. Once we either release our own zoom motor, or have integrated with the RED motor, we will look at implementing this. The real issue is the production of the calibration data.

We have ways to do this automagically... but that will require our auto-interactive focus module that we will not be announcing for some time...

The other request that comes quite often is aperture comensation on variable aperture zooms. Because of the quarter stop steps of the Canon iris mechanism, this feature may not be that interesting without some intervention in post. THis also requires a zoom motor.This would rock indeed!

On the 1st two (breathing compensation and auto-focus), are there different estimated dates, right? If so, when can we expect to have them, then?

On the third one (aperture compensation), any further chance?

[Erik Widding]

Will you be making your own whip, or should I buy one of those?

We will not be making accessories that are already commercially available at a reasonable price.

N.B. We would'nt be making an FF knob if it weren't truly necessary to be able to use our lens mount out of the box...:sad:

[Erik Widding]

This would rock indeed!

On the 1st two (breathing compensation and auto-focus), are there different estimated dates, right? If so, when can we expect to have them, then?

On the third one (aperture compensation), any further chance?

I would expect engineering to start on these features during 4Q07, for release sometime next year. We need to get the Nikon product out first.

[CVB]

Erik,

We may be starting on lens breathing compensation before you guys for our remote. We are going to build an automated test stand towards the middle of January and will make the data publicly available. By then we should have a good idea of the control scheme as well and we could probably share it with you.

-Curt

[Evin Grant]

Erik, any ETA on the Nikon mount?

[ericyoung]

Erik,

We may be starting on lens breathing compensation before you guys for our remote. We are going to build an automated test stand towards the middle of January and will make the data publicly available. By then we should have a good idea of the control scheme as well and we could probably share it with you.

-Curt

Cooperation between potential rivals - how cool is that! :biggrin: IF only world affairs could be like that...sighs. :blink: :meh:

[Evin Grant]

Why would you consider them rivals? Curt's products directly complement the Birger mount and both need to interface as seemlessly as possible into the Red package. Even if you were using the electronic focus of the Birger you would still need a Red Motor to do the breathing compensation on the zoom. They are joined at the hip on this it seems.

[jaadgy akanni]

I'm fascinated by the prospect of being able to use breathing compensation. Can someone enlighten me as to what the logic behind the solution would be? How would this work-would it involve your having to do (like) a dry run of your intended shot so that some kind of "breathing attack, sustain, release" can be measured and automatically compensated for, at which point you'd be ready to run your "real" shot? Is it anything analogous to the way a preamp compressor works on audio? Someone please school me.

[Evin Grant]

It's fairly simple, they bench test a bunch of different SLR zoom lenses and create a data base that corresponds to the amount of zooming that's needed to counteract the breathing. This won't work at the very ends of the zoom but should be fine. There could also be a plug-in to FCP/Red cine that could use the same info to do the same thing in post. We're only talking about 2-4% punch in so it won't be visable form a quality stand point.

[jaadgy akanni]

Thanks Evin. Wow, things keep getting better and better.

[NuclearNerd]

Hi Erik, Curt

I can't promise an order yet, as I'm still waiting for a contract from a customer, but if all goes well, I'll be looking for a motorized zoom for Canon lenses soon. I have seen a rendering for the Red Motor and I was hoping I might offer a design suggestion. We'll be sticking the lens in a custom underwater housing, which means we need to keep things fairly small (the housing will probably have less than 125mm ID). Would you consider changing the motor design from a big flat thing to something small like this: http://www.heden-engineering.com/default.asp?m=0,56,57,93&i=93&n=

Thanks,
Brendan

[Evin Grant]

Since they're pretty close to delivery I doubt they will make such a drastic re-design. However if you are useing a Canon EOS AF lenses you could mount the motor under the lens where the body has to decend anyway. This might make the whole package thinner. Also what about a mechanical linkage, this is what they do in DSLR housing no?

[Roberto B]

It's fairly simple, they bench test a bunch of different SLR zoom lenses and create a data base that corresponds to the amount of zooming that's needed to counteract the breathing. This won't work at the very ends of the zoom but should be fine."at the very ends of the zoom"..

as for instance?..

[Evin Grant]

Well if you're pulling from close to far, your image will need to be zoomed slightly in to compensate, if you're at 70mm on a 28-70mm zoom this can't be done so you would need to zoom out slightly to allow for the correction. The same would apply in reverse at the wide end.

[Roberto B]

sure.. it does make sense now.

[CVB]

Evin.. correct. Our thoughts were that when your using lens breathing compensation (LBC) mode it would limit the zoom to positions that can be compensated for. If you need that extra range then you'd have to tun off the LBC mode .

[Evin Grant]

Curt, is the motor going to do some kind of calibration at power up so it knows where the ends of the zoom are. If so you could limit the motors ability to go past safe "soft stops" so that in LBC mode you never have to worry about zooming too far in or out. Think that's possible?

[CVB]

Yup, as mentioned at NAB, the calibration is already a feature. You press the button on a motor and it finds the limits. Just to clarify, all off of the compensation is done in the remote/receiver... so basically the receiver would look up the current lens data and not command the motor to go further than the database allows for that particular lens (if in LBC mode). we are going to have a serial port as well so we may be able to tap directly into Eriks mount and issue move commands. This all depends on who gets to it first :)

[ericyoung]

Why would you consider them rivals? Curt's products directly complement the Birger mount and both need to interface as seemlessly as possible into the Red package. Even if you were using the electronic focus of the Birger you would still need a Red Motor to do the breathing compensation on the zoom. They are joined at the hip on this it seems.

I only considered them potential rivals, as they have similar expertise. Just because different manufacturer's make products that can work with products made by others, doesn't necessarily mean they won't make products that overlap or directly compete with each other. But yes they are very complementary, and cooperation sounds like a very good idea in this instance.

[Mr. Paul White]

Evin.. correct. Our thoughts were that when your using lens breathing compensation (LBC) mode it would limit the zoom to positions that can be compensated for. How much would you estimate?

[A. Bastaki]

i want to pre-order this thing already, wheres the page?
________
Honda Xr600 (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Honda_XR600)

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

i want to pre-order this thing already, wheres the page?

Yeah where is the page amigos??
I've read previously that the cost wth accessories would be $1400 and that very early reservers would get a free wireless controller. Ok so how do we buy the thing? It's the 20th of August already.. Also, will we see the Birger mount in the RED booth at IBC?

[Eddie]

Dear birger, how are the ergonomics of the mount thought out with regard to handheld shots?
Much of the input on this board regards the focus puller and dp both being able to fumble around simultaniously, but have you tested the mount in a simple shoulder mounted setup?
Is it up to the user to find a configuration that suits him well, or is there a basic plan, as to what your left and right hand should be doing?

[Joel Kaye]

Is it up to the user to find a configuration that suits him well, or is there a basic plan, as to what your left and right hand should be doing?

As long as it mounts on rods and the cable is long enough we should be able to put it anywhere needed - which is more flexible than a lot of FF units out there.

[wshultz]

Did an answer ever come back to Evin's question about whether the Nikon mount version is still on track for October release?

[Jim Arthurs]

A couple questions that I haven't found answers to yet...

1.) If you power off the RED and power it back on, do the iris and focus stay at the same settings as before power off?

2.) If yes to the above, do either the iris or focus cycle (open/close near/far, etc.) back to the desired position or truly stay where they were last set?

3.) I think I read 4048 encoder points on the focus... I'm wondering exactly how smooth focus will be, and are all these encoder points referenced up to 1:1 on the lens itself? Does a lens with a short focus throw (say 1/3 rotation) have the same amount of precision as one with a longer throw?

Regards,

[Nook Kim]

Does a lens with a short focus throw (say 1/3 rotation) have the same amount of precision as one with a longer throw?


I'm curious, too.

[Jim Arthurs]

Digging into the website a bit more I see an example for a Canon EF50mm f/1.4, which returns 664 steps from min to max focus... now I wonder does that mean there is 664 discreet steps in the focus, or some sort of averaging over the full encoder range of 4048? Also, will all lenses have the same number of steps, or is there greater variation?

IMO, this whole system will live or die based on the smoothness of focus... and I'm just trying to figure out what this means in actual conditions...

[Michael Hastings]

Digging into the website a bit more I see an example for a Canon EF50mm f/1.4, which returns 664 steps from min to max focus... now I wonder does that mean there is 664 discreet steps in the focus, or some sort of averaging over the full encoder range of 4048? Also, will all lenses have the same number of steps, or is there greater variation?

IMO, this whole system will live or die based on the smoothness of focus... and I'm just trying to figure out what this means in actual conditions...

Jim: The various lenses have different numbers of steps. I copied some info Erik posted in another thread so you can see most lenses have a very high number of steps. (also some interesting stuff on autofocus possibilities). I'm pretty sure the encoder would translate the 4048 steps on the knob into whatever the lens max-min would be. As far as smoothness of focus clarify for me - but I'm not sure that it matters much since the lens can only do what it can do - in other words if the 70-200 has 2500 steps it has to stop on a discrete step, but more steps means more precision, so more precision than the 10-22 which has about 1200. He also states it is more logarithmic so more steps in the close focus range.

We won't know for sure until we try it on the red but from some of the things Erik said in my only conversation with him, I think the focus is going to be very smooth. (PS this response from erik is months old so they may have new things as well)

Quote from other thread (he was responding to my question about focus repeatability)

"With lenses that have ring-type USM motors we are seeing repeatability on the order of a few steps. The step counts for some of these lenses:
85mm f/1.2: 4200 steps
14mm f/2.8: 1400
70-200mm f/2.8: 2500
200mm f/1.8: 3750
200mm f/2.8: 2100
35mm f/1.4: 2500
60mm f/2.8: 2000
100mm f/2.8: 2500

On all of these lenses we have repeatability on the order of 0.1%. Steps correspond to more of a log than a linear scale of focus distance. Half of the steps might be used for the first meter or two of focus on some lenses. Steps are linear in terms of the rotation of the mechanism.

The 10-22 f/3.5-4.3 has about 1200 steps. We have played with this lens for about five minutes. It is not one of the ones that works really well with servo mode, yet. We will add it to our set. Give us a few weeks... It is extremely repeatable with our normal mode of operation, move stop move stop etc. Servo mode is really new.

Basically the lenses are more accurate in their positioning than a typical human being is capable of by simply turning the dial manually. This offers some really interesting possibilities if Graeme's radical new focus assist were to be the basis for an auto-interactive focus mode for ENG users. We can all guess what the focus assist is going to offer.

But if this is even just a texture based quality of focus (maximized high frequency component means better focus) it has enough information to keep a "talking head" in focus as the 3D path of the head relative to the focus plane can be understood. If best focus is near the middle of the object (think nose) focus is too close. If best focus is near the outer edges, focus is too far away. Blob analyze the scene... blob analyze the focus quality... apply Newton's second law (i.e. a PID loop)... voila... auto-interactive focusing...

I call this auto-interactive focus, as the camera operator just has to pick which blob to start tracking."

[ericyoung]

"...The 10-22 f/3.5-4.3 has about 1200 steps...Basically the lenses are more accurate in their positioning than a typical human being is capable of by simply turning the dial manually..."

Well, even if the throw of a lens was a whole 360 degrees, and we only had the lowest quoted 1200 equal steps - that is 0.3 degrees per step! Then given that those steps are weighted towards the closer more critical focus end, I don't think we need to worry that we will see steps in the focus.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding the maths - always a possibility in my little brain! :waaa:

[Jim Arthurs]

We won't know for sure until we try it on the red but from some of the things Erik said in my only conversation with him, I think the focus is going to be very smooth.

Thanks, this was very helpful... I think I'll put a deposit down when they put up a form for it...

I agree that we'll have to "wait and see" how this translates into actual hands on...

Exciting times...

[Andrew M.]

What is the status, any updates about the order form to be posted? where?

[chuck colburn]

Just a little teaser before we put out pricing and reservation forms on Thursday 5 July... (I am taking the holiday off.:bye2:)

We will be releasing Canon EF (August), Sigma SA (August), FourThirds (September) and Nikon F (October) lens mounts for the RED ONE camera. These lens mounts, through a mechanical adapter, can also be used on a RedRock M2, and other 35mm adapters.

Attached are pictures of the rail-mount follow focus knob and Canon EF lens mount prototypes. These were printed on a Dimension 3D printer using ABS plastic. The main housings of both will be made from aluminum, and the knob from injection molded polycarbonate. The bayonets will be made from stainless steel.

The follow-focus knob contains a 4096 count magnetic encoder; is selectable between single turn with hard stops, and multi-turn; has a friction adjustment; and has snap-off markable rings (white part). The lens mount has a built in bluetooth antenna. Each module has two LEMO 0B connectors for daisy-chaining power and RS232 from the camera to these (and yet to be announced) modules.

In addition to the open Birger protocol, the lens mount also speaks Fuji and Cooke-like lens protocols so it can be used with existing lens control, data-logging and data-display equipment. The protocol used on each of the three ports (bluetooth, 2 x RS232) is configurable on a port by port basis.

Changing lens mounts requires disconnecting one (or two) LEMO 0B connectors from the bottom of the mount, and removing and replacing the four screws (visible from the front of the mount in the images) with an allen key.

More on Thursday...:whistling:

Erik,

I can't see the back of the mount and it looks like it's laying flat on the table in your photograph. What I'm wondering is what locates the mount to the bore of the front of the camera. I'm sure it's not the four mounting screws as they would be just for retention and not mechanical locating.

[Joel Kaye]

Revisiting those pictures I see that the focus knob needs a whip socket. Maybe that was mentioned in the thread, but hopefully it'll become part of the design.

[GATES]

Hello all,

I just spoke with Erik and he is alive and well. The Birger mounts proceed forward. As you may surmise with ongoing changes to RED there are domino effects to those of us designing accessory products. Erik is moving as rapidly as circumstance allows. I am confident the Birger mounts will be worth the wait.

John

[Mark Pugh]

Great he's still with us!
So are there problems with the mount when firmware upgrades are released?
Or is it to do with the hardware upgrade?

[Mark Thorpe]

Hello all,

I just spoke with Erik and he is alive and well. The Birger mounts proceed forward. As you may surmise with ongoing changes to RED there are domino effects to those of us designing accessory products. Erik is moving as rapidly as circumstance allows. I am confident the Birger mounts will be worth the wait.

JohnGreat news John,
Looking forward to late December.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Glory Hallelujah!
Did he say when he thought he might start production?

[GATES]

Hi,

These are all good questions -- for Erik. I expect he will answer in due course.

John

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

...:)

[Joel Kaye]

Hello all,

I just spoke with Erik and he is alive and well. The Birger mounts proceed forward. As you may surmise with ongoing changes to RED there are domino effects to those of us designing accessory products.


There's no reason to blame RED for this delay.

I can see the machining of the RED physical mount changing but nothing else RED does should affect the electronics between the Birger and the Canon. There was supposed to be an order page online around July 6th. It's now November 10th. Is that RED's fault too?

Just give a honest progress report so we know if we're days, months or weeks away from seeing something. And post a video if there's any proof this thing does anything like what it's supposed to do. Otherwise it's officially vaporware as a unit that works independently of a PC and rolls a slow, smooth focus.

Someone had to say it.

[David Nardini]

... with ongoing changes to RED there are domino effects to those of us designing accessory products ...

Given the fact that RED is by definition in constant state of flux (changes for the better) I could interpret your statement to mean that we may never see these accessories ? :bye2:

Joking aside, I struggle to see why we cannot have an update of what is done and what is subject to the 'domino effect' ?

My understanding of the Birger mount is clearly limited, but I would suggest that if we could get a BASIC unit (ie : powered by the RED camera with an aperture control only), this would provide the key piece of functionality we require.

The more ADVANCED unit could be worked on in parallel, with all the bells and whistles that are perhaps being affected by RED changes. Folk could elect to wait for this to happen, or get going with the BASIC unit.

Perhaps the re-designed RED PL mount is the issue (and Birger needing to comply) ... just a guess on my part.

It's the lack of communication/update/status that is the main frustration.

[jaadgy akanni]

It sounds to me like the Birger mount is gonna take a while, especially the Nikon version. Oh well.

[Dexter Gregoire]

Have Faith, for without it, nothing is possible.

Call him up! You'll find out a few (beta) units are out there and working. Television shows, Gibby has one, etc... The unit exists, pictures are here on the forum, look for them.

When it's ready to launch he'll show up. Some people don't want to give play by play Status/Update about everything that's happening.

Have Patience, believe everything will work itself out in due time.

[PaulClements]

Problem is that lack of knowledge on the part of the customer means that as delivery of cameras approaches many people are having to rethink their lens options because they cannot be sure the mount will be available anytime soon. I had expected the mounts to have been readily available by now, if only the Canon mount. And I certainly thought the reservation page would have been up.

I have every faith that Birger will produce a competent product but as time goes on I can see many people buying PL mount lenses so they can actually shoot. Instead of their initial still lens setup. Demand for the Birger mount may well dwindle somewhat.

Simply put, it is in the interest of Birger, just as it is Red, to keep their prospective customers informed of any delays and provide at the very least tentative shipping schedules just as Red has. Having that knowledge may well stop people taking other lens options instead.

Only a suggestion.

Paul

[jaadgy akanni]

Desperate times call for desperate measures and I agree that Birger should make an effort to ease our anxiety with some update. I mean, show the tip of your nose at least!

[Rocco Schult]

Spoke to Erik last friday. Following him, he will post news very soon.

[Andrew M.]

anybody got confirmation yet?

[Erik Widding]

anybody got confirmation yet?

I am starting to process confirmations/deposits now... I expect to have most of the backlog cleared by wednesday afternoon. I will post in each of the active threads that I have processed all of the reservations, as of a specific time/date.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Erik you rock!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Fence sitter]

I'm wondering about motor noise.......no one has mentioned just how useable the still lenses will be in close with focus motors not designed for film sound work.

Fence

[Mike Prevette]

Most of the Canon motors are dead silent at least the USM ones are. Way quieter than the Heiden zoom motors, or M-one focus motor normally used in cine situations.

[M Hsu]

does anyone remember this thread? birger lens mount reservations part 1
How quickly a year goes by, it just seems like yesterday when I saw my first aqua post.