What are the applications for a 9K camera, or a 28K camera.

[Andrew Madu]

As a recent convert to Medium Format photography I read with interest the following from the above mentioned FAQ section:

"Digital medium format, 65 megapixel, at 50 frames per second. Do you think the cover of Sports Illustrated will ever be the same?"

I take it the above quote refers to a stills/motion hybrid, correct? My question is, how will the photography aspect of this device work? Will the above mentioned 50 frames per second also apply to the stills aspect of this device (Sweet Lord what a thought!) or just the motion photography side of things?

Apart from the 645/617 sensors can someone give me an idea of the DSMC components required to build such an hybrid? I'm still trying to get my head around this whole building block system and the multitude of options offered!

Many thanks

Andrew Madu

[Alex Sutherland]

Although Red seems to be adept at surprising us and beating our expectations, I set my expectations pretty low for anticipation how they're going to blend still and motion machines into one without making you choose one or the other to use at any given time without a lot of effort to switch between the two.

Take the sports illustrated example, for instance. Even if the photographer was just shooting at 24 frames per second, he'd still have to bump up his shutter angle so severely as to make the footage unusable for anything but pulling stills from. High-end still cameras will shot at 10 fps already, and they're arguably more ergonomically practical for someone shooting a game. I'm not sure what one gains other than the bragging rights and convenience of owning one camera for the price of two or three still digital SLRs.

Not to mention (but I'll mention anyway) the huge issues over rights. The National Press Photographers Association used to publish a bunch of articles about how strictly the national sporting venus restrict rights access to photographers and particularly video producers. My guess is there is zero chance any photojournalist working for Sports Illustrated is going to get anywhere near an NBA or NFL game that has signed over (for a hefty price) the exclusive filming rights to one or the other TV networks like ESPN. And even if you manage to sneak your Red Epic in amongst your other gear and publish a video you take at the event, forget your parent company publication ever getting access to that event for years to come when they find it.

So frankly, I'm hoping to be surprised but not expecting it and I'm not even sure I understand the business sense of it.

[Jonas Rejman]

But this problem is not limited only to RED/EPIC/SCARLET, when almost every new DSLR now is getting a 1080p video feature of some sort?

Aren't those rights more valuable for e.g. large TV networks? How could they control footage from e.g. videophones, that are getting towards HD as well?

I must say, that I am not quite grasping the concept of FF35 either.

I surely would not buy a FF35 epic for 33K, or even the 645 for 43K, if I seriously want to make photography. If I want something to photograph AND to shoot movies with, I would need cinema lenses for FF or 645. Despite the amount of people filming with canon and nikon lenses, I do not quite believe, that it will kill "true" cine lenses any time soon

So if i want to photograph, I get a Mark II. If I want to shoot in a filmic style, I stick with S35 lenses. If I want the Monstro, I put it in the existing RED ONE. If I want high speed, I borrow a Phantom for the day or two...

Why would I want an FF35 and above?

This is not an attack, I simply do not understand why I would need such a hybrid, when I think that 2 specialized tools for 2 special applications are better than what seems to be a compromise.

???

[Alex Sutherland]

I'll agree with all of that. I don't understand the business sense of trying to market DSMC as the next big thing when it is clearly not the most practical system for achieving a still image, nor does the market of individuals looking to produce world-class cinema and high-end digital still images from the same camera seem to my sensibilities to be large enough to sustain the effort.

The rights issues having to do with cell phones and still photographers vs someone bringing in a cinema rig are a world apart, by my view. I can't see the NFL getting in a tissy over someone uploading 640x480 footage of some play from 80 yards away in the stands. Their concern is people getting footage that is going to compete with the organization who they charged untold sums of money to grant the privilege of obtaining those images for their own purposes. Cell phones (and I would argue a 5D) aren't going to be a threat to the exclusivity of rights access given to ESPN for instance. The 5d approaches that threshhold, but my guess is the first time some newspaper attempts to post video from it they'll immediately lose access to all future events. When I was the associate director of photography at a paper, I had to deal with the big-12 football people and they would require our paper to sign a contract that limited what types of images we could take away from it and how we could use them. Were we to violate that contract, we would of course be opening ourselves up to litigation and financial damages. The threat of that is enough to prevent a sane photographer from trying to sell his 5d-captured footage to anyone.

[Andrew Madu]

From a technical standpoint, and putting licensing/copyright issues to one side for the moment, the following article helped me better understand the DMSC concept:

http://dorkmanscott.blogspot.com/2008/11/what-just-happened-big-red-announcement.html

I understand that either an Hasselblad mount will be used for the 645, correct? Which would allow me usage of my HCD 4.0-5.6/35-90, HC 3.5/35, HC 2.2/100 and HC 4.5/300 lenses. But in regards to motion capture what options would I be looking at for the 645 medium format sensor?

Many thanks.

[Andrew Madu]

The RED 645 Primes, are they cine/still weighted or is RED pioneering generic glass suitable for both still and motion photography?

Many thanks in advance.

[Andrew Madu]

Anyone from RED care to chime in about the 645 Primes?

Many thanks in advance.

EDIT: Have ascertained, via another thread, that the 645 Primes will be 'hybrid' in nature. Maybe helpful is this form of information, pertaining to the DSMC concept, was presented as a 'sticky'?

[Athiril]

I think I remember reading somewhere Mamiya lenses will be usable on the 645 right? Therefore RB67 lenses should be (even if it must be through a RB->RZ converter), and if other lenses are supported (Mamiya, Hasselblad, etc etc), I'm assuming it's going to need a bellow focussing system for them?

And I assume the Red 645 lenses should have an internal focussing system with bellows at infinite to avoid moving the lens closer to the subject and thus changing perspective and apparent magnification (and also changing magnification as lens moves further from film plane/sensor) for motion picture?

Given that digital backs are around the same price, the red offers better value and features, and so far it looks like only the Phase One P45+ (not the P65+) is usable for long exposures too, I assume such a feature wouldnt be left out of the red.

In any case, this level of video resolution is useful for special effects, such as matte painting and back plates, as then the back plate or parts of the matte painting you pan across is naturally 'animated' instead of a huge panoramic still.

And of course, multiple crops similar to a 'multi-cam' that have continuity as well as long pans that are 'panned' in post.

[lonny dill]

I'll agree with all of that. I don't understand the business sense of trying to market DSMC as the next big thing when it is clearly not the most practical system for achieving a still image, nor does the market of individuals looking to produce world-class cinema and high-end digital still images from the same camera seem to my sensibilities to be large enough to sustain the effort.



I really don't know what to expect. But, usually Red surprises me with their results. I currently use a Canon 5DMkII for still photography and a Red1 for video work. Both set-ups have never offered the same output. Each camera requires different lighting to produce optimum results. Hot lights work best for video cameras and flash packs work best for still photo cameras. It is a pain to lug around both lighting set-ups and two different cameras. Yet, for best results, I don't see how it can be done any other way. Each profession takes two different mind sets.

The advantage of being able to pull stills from your video work still seems very benificial; but, I would not count on the video to produce still photography results.

[Tim Whitcomb]

I'll never tell! :wink:

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The advantage of being able to pull stills from your video work still seems very benificial; but, I would not count on the video to produce still photography results.

I don't see why it wouldn't, or at least it will within the confines of the video frame settings. RED One already does this just fine and the Mysterium-X upgrade looks like it gives us range very similar to current leading DSLRs. But if you're shooting with the intent of capturing motion, then any stills you pull will have the inherent motion blur of the slow shutter speeds used for motion. Likewise, if you increase the shutter speed to generate proper blur-free still images, it becomes too harsh for use in motion, unless shooting at 60fps or better. And even then, post-process blur would have to be introduced in most cases.

Then there's the argument that a mechanical shutter is still needed to reproduce proper still camera images. I disagree, but a mechanical shutter option is in the works for the Epic cameras to keep that crowd happy. Some people still believe a mechanical shutter is needed for true cinematic motion capture... Keep in mind that many DSLRs actually can't cycle their shutter at their top "shutter speed" settings. For example, my Nikon D2Xs has a max shutter speed of about 1/1250s. Speeds faster than that are achieved by cycling the CMOS faster within the open shutter window, so that's the same as taking the still image without a mechanical shutter.

I think where the DSMC concept will really come alive is when stills and motion can be captured independently at the same time within certain shooting parameters. We have been told that Epic and Scarlet will not do this, but all things subject to change and who knows what the future will bring with new camera models. But think of it this way, if you're shooting 24fps motion with a 180 shutter (1/48s), plus a 5ms CMOS reset, and allowing for a second reset sequence, that allows 1/47s in which to capture another image before needing to capture the subsequent "motion" frame.

Wouldn't it be interesting to capture a another image within that 1/47s down-time at a much higher shutter speed? like 1/1000s? That would be an incredible tool for many different applications. Fashion shoots could have full motion footage plus high-speed stills recorded right along with it.

All I see to keep this from happening now is the sensor being able to cope with it, and not so much the number of FPS, but the alternating exposure times. But most importantly the sensitivity range of the sensor to offer the equivalent of ISO 250 for the motion, and to still be able to effectively process those high speed stills at perhaps ISO 1600. As an arbitrary example. Mysterium-X probably isn't "there" just yet, but it makes me wonder about Monstro and what will follow it...