Wildlife feature in Africa - 3K, and other questions [Archive]

mike holding

06-11-2009, 04:14 AM

Hi all,

I have been diligently prowling this forum for a year, and should first compliment everyone on what is an outstanding source of information. This is my first post here, so I apologise in advance if the mixed and multiple questions below have been answered before, but rest assured I have searched!

I am a wildlife cinematographer with 25 years experience – recent work you might recognise was as a major contributor on “Planet Earth” and “Earth-the movie” (Disney). I’m about to embark on a wildlife feature film for cinema release as Director and DoP. The film will be shot entirely on location in the wilds of Africa – hot, dusty conditions, working mostly off the back of a 4x4 vehicle. Everything will be put through DI and back to 35mm.
Here are my questions and concerns:

Shooting on Red One with 35mm lens focal lengths will be very restrictive to our style of shooting, where much is normally done on extreme telephotos’. (ie usually HJ 40x14, HJ 18x28 lenses on 2/3” HD cameras). I thought a workable compromise would be to work at 3K, adding (am I correct?) about 30% to the “length” of standard 35mm lenses while keeping the advantages of slow motion capability.

If the above 3K option is a workable compromise, then questions are:

1) Does anyone have experience shooting in 3K and going through DI back to film-out for theatrical release?
2) What is the “real world” resolution of RedOne when windowed at 3K?
3) I have read here that there may be problems with the Quicktime proxies for FCP when shooting at 3K – can anyone shed light on this?
4) Will the Red withstand continuous use in temperatures of 45 degrees C ?
5) Is it possible to keep the camera powered for long periods of time? Ie – hot swapping to keep the camera booted, or heavy duty 12v power supplies that last a few hours?
6) I anticipate using (budget permitting) Angenieux Optimo 17-80, 24-290, and Canon 150-600 lenses. Does anyone have any alternative lens suggestions they have used successfully for this type of film?
7) Any other suggestions/solutions for this style of shooting?

Thanks

Mike Holding (yet to take delivery of Red 4547)

Denis Buhot

06-11-2009, 07:02 AM

5) Is it possible to keep the camera powered for long periods of time? Ie – hot swapping to keep the camera booted, or heavy duty 12v power supplies that last a few hours?
6) I anticipate using (budget permitting) Angenieux Optimo 17-80, 24-290, and Canon 150-600 lenses. Does anyone have any alternative lens suggestions they have used successfully for this type of film?

Although not shooting african fauna (I have embarked on a golden eagle scheme myself), I've had to face some of the problems above.

Yes, you can keep the camera powered for hours : many ways to do that, including marine batteries (topic covered some place on that board). Hot swapping is possible too with a dedicated battery plate (see forum). 8-10 red bricks or equivalent will power the camera for circa one full day, and shooting from a car should not make it too much of a load (not my case :-(). You might have to shade your red, depending the sample. However, the overheating issue seems to have been adressed.

As for lenses for difficult, shy/distant subjects, I'm feeling comfortable with a 300-800 sigma, f:5.6. Huge and heavy, but very easy to balance/operate with the red cradle, and fantastically sharp. It's likely african heat shimmer won't make any bigger lens practical, anyway. Hope that helps

mike holding

06-11-2009, 08:06 AM

Thanks,

I have a big battery rig in the vehicle that should be fine then - about 300 amp/hours. Just wondered if Red was "fussy" about its power supply. I think I may have seen the hot swap plate - I'll look here again.

I have not had the opportunity to try the Sigma - certainly its a very workable range for what we do. I'll see if I can get my hands on one for a test.
Thanks again

Steve Gibby

06-11-2009, 09:29 AM

Mike,

Buhot has given you some good input.

Here's mine:

I own several RED cameras, most of them since August 2007, and wildlife/Nature documentaries are some of the most frequent productions I do - National Geographic, etc.

A large portion of my productions in adventure travel, alternative sports, nature, wildlife, etc are very mobile, with small crews - and the regular need for medium to long zooms. Having worked a lot with EFP 2/3" cameras and lenses before, I understand your dilemma in seeking long zooms for RED.

The long zooms we use the most are a Canon FD 150-600 - a stock lens except for a Century PL mount conversion, and a stock Nikon 50-300 f4.5 AIS. For medium length zooms we usually use a Nikon 80-200 f2.8 - both AF and AF-s versions. For wide beauty shots and scenics, we've had excellent results with Nikon 17-35, Nikon 14-24, and Tokina 11-16 (Nikon mount). Results have been excellent with all these lenses - theatrical quality.

Most of my productions are for television. We usually shoot subjects with little or no motion in 4k HD, 29.97, 1/96th shutter. For higher motion subjects where we need to overcrank, we have been shooting a lot of 3k, 16x9, 23.98 project rate, with 48 fps in Varispeed, and 1/120th shutter, for a 50% slo-mo. The results in both the 4k and 3k have been excellent - and the 4k and 3k footage cuts well together. In my experience, 2k and 4k don't cut together nearly as well as 4k and 3k. When 3k redcode Raw is debayered, you end up with around 2.34k - plenty of oversample down to a 2k or 1080p finish.

We haven't taken 3k through DI and out for theatrical release, but the color correction for our television programs has been quite good.

We've used RED a lot in the heat of the desert and tropics. Manually set the camera fan to "Hot", shade the camera whenever possible with small umbrellas, etc., and if necessary have some gel packs available to use for extended out in the heat work. If you do this you shouldn't have any problems.

Yes, you can use a block battery or battery belt for extended shooting. RED makes a cable for that. On a recent 10 RED camera production in the Philippines I was a DP for, we needed to hot swap the batteries on all cameras because we were shooting to RED Drives and we needed to have continuous running of the cameras. Our simple solution was to use a battery belt with an adaptor to plug into the power bus on the RED Power Plate. To change batteries, we'd send a PA around to each camera with the battery belt, plug into the power plate while the RED Battery was still attached, detach the old RED Battery, install the new RED Battery, then detach the battery belt from the plate. It worked fine.

For that mobile style of shooting we keep the setups as light as possible - we don't use matte boxes or follow focus units. We use screw-on filters, and rack lens barrels manually while eye focusing the camera.

For tripods we've had excellent results using the Miller 55 head and Miller Solo 1505 carbon fiber legs. The total weight of that combo is only 13.8 pounds. In a pinch we've even used that combo with lens setups as heavy as a Angenieux 24-290 with a matte box - and it performed well. We also use the Miller 2-stage Sprinter II CF legs for heavier loads - with excellent results.

We use sturdy backpacks for hiking in with RED kits - LowePro and Tamrac.

We also use medium and large Cine Saddles in the bush - they're great for quick run n' gun shooting where carrying a tripod is a liability.

Hope this input helps you. I've shot wildlife in Africa on two extended trips. If you need some help on your project, I'd be happy to help you out.

Lauri Kettunen

06-11-2009, 09:51 AM

Mike,

An additional piece of information to Buhot's and Steve's messages; I've used the Canon EF 800mm/f5.6 L IS lens with and without a EF 1.4 extender. This works out just fine with the Birger EF mount. I've also used the Canon FD 150-600 which had an Optex PL mount conversion but consider the image of EF 800mm/f5.6 L quite a lot better.

The EF 800mm/f5.6 is amazingly light and have found the image stabilizer rather useful when shooting flying birds.

mike holding

06-11-2009, 09:59 AM

Hi Steve
Thanks for your very comprehensive reply. In my continual reading of these boards over the last year, I have always found your feedback useful - you are very generous in your responses to everyone. Thanks for that. :)

Much of your methodology as described above is familiar and comfortable for me. My 150-600 Canon was a favorite when shooting 35mm in the 'old days', and I'm glad now I didn't part with it! My guess is that this lens with the Nikon 80-200 you suggest (another old favorite) is a good solution that won't break the bank. Ive never used the Angenieux 24-290 - how would you rate the results (and ability to intercut) between that and the 150-600 ,assuming that I would find a doubler for the Angenieux?

You have put my mind at easy about the power issue - I'm used to running the Varicam etc., from all sorts of 'heath-robinson' arrangements, but was nervous that the Red might be twitchy about this kind of inventiveness!

Similarly, it seems that heat issues have gone away - in film days we went to extraordinary lengths to keep stock cool and mags out of the sun, so that too is familiar methodology. I'm fortunate in being able to do much of my work based around a 4x4 Landcruiser (hiking in lion country being a bit too "interesting" on occasion), so we can carry a lot more support gear than if we were having to hike.

The producers on the project are pushing for Red, which is good, but I want to be absolutely sure that I'm not biting of more than I can chew, with the potential of an already logistically difficult shoot combined with the learning curve and teething problems of new technology. A safer route in many ways would be the Panasonic 3700, but I will miss the slomo!

Thank for your generous offer to help. I hope you are serious, because I might just call your bluff!

Thanks again - I'm sure to be back with more questions shortly.

mike holding

06-11-2009, 10:02 AM

Thanks Lauri
I will try to borrow one and do some tests - I really do need a zoom / variable focal length ability, because often I'm stuck in one shooting position, surrounded by elephants or whatever, and need to reframe for full sequence coverage!

Steve Gibby

06-11-2009, 10:03 AM

Yes Lauri, I'd imagine footage from the Canon EF 800 5.6 does look quite good. I haven't used that lens on RED.

In long primes for wildlife, I also use my Nikon 400 f3.5 AIS, with and without 1.4 and 2x, and the results have been excellent. Its a very crisp lens.

I've also used my RED 300, with an Optex 2x, and the results were very good.

A close associate of mine, Kennan Ward, who does extensive Alaska wildlife production, regularly uses a Nikon 200-400 zoom and a Nikon 50-300 AIS zoom (on my recommendation) - and loves them both. He shoots a lot of bears and animals that are sensitive to someone walking or driving around to get another framing - thus he uses the zooms.

For shooting from blinds or other stationary shooting, a long prime can be very good. If you need to be mobile though, the problem with using primes is having to walk or drive to each framing - something that usually spooks shy animals, or provokes aggression from ferocious ones - or cause you to miss a lot of key animal behavior while you're moving to the new setup spot. For me zooms are usually the ticket.

The 150-600 does not do well with a 2x. I never use mine with my Optex 2x.

Steve Gibby

06-11-2009, 10:25 AM

My pleasure Mike...and thank you for the kind words...

Long live the 150-600! I love mine and would never part with it. Good glass stays good glass. I've loved the idea of using a lot of 20 year old glass on RED. For me the results just look more traditional and filmic - a look I'm usually after when I shoot nature and wildlife.

Some other thoughts: I always use an Element Technica Shock Mount and ET Speedy Clamp to side-mount my RED Drive on a 15mm top rod on the smart side of the camera. I shoot a lot in bouncing boats, jeeps, etc. - while doing longform programming - thus the Shock Mount avoids dropped frames with the RED Drive. If you need to change out a drive, its as easy as pushing the side button on the Speedy Clamp, popping the drive off, unplugging the cable, cabling the new drive, then snapping it onto the V-mount via the Speedy Clamp - about 10 seconds time elapsed. I'd highly recommend those accessories for the type of shooting you're going to do. I also use the ET EVF mount, and I top mount the RED battery on the back of the camera with a lightweight 15mm bracket from ET.

ET rocks when it comes to accessories. I've also been testing out their new rain cover for RED, and it is very good. You may want to seriously consider getting one of those to keep the rain and road dust off from the camera.

I've used the Angenieux 24-290 a fair amount, but avoid it for projects where any degree of mobility in needed. At 25 pounds, and close to 30 pounds with its accessories (Arri MB-14, etc.) it is a stationary lens. When I use it on RED, the whole setup is around 55 pounds - much too heavy a rig for any degree of mobility. Optically it is a great lens though. I have tested out my doublers with the lens, which bring it up to around 5.6. Side by comparison of the footage to footage from the stock Canon 150-600 boils down to a matter of taste. The Canon is a "warmer" and more filmic image to my eyes. The Angie with a 2x is a little more crisp (especially wide open), but once you get to f8 to f11 (where I'm usually shooting wildlife), its a tossup - but the 150-600 still has a more warm and filmic look. As you know, at 9 pounds the 150-600 is a lot more mobile than a 30 pound Angie. Plus the push/pull to zoom and re-frame and twist to rack focus function of the 150-600 is a lot faster to use than twisting separate gear rings on the Angie.

I own three versions of the nikon 80-200. The version of the Nikon 80-200 I favor for run n' gun shooting is the old AF version, with the push/pull zooming and twist focusing. I find I miss a lot less nature behavior shots with those features over the other individual barrel twist functions of the 80-200 AF-S.

I shot extensively at Phinda and Kruger in South Africa on my trips there. If you need some help on your project I'd be happy to step up and give you a hand. Among other genres, I've been shooting a ton of wildlife and nature the last two years with my three REDs - in Alaska, Hawaii, Asia, Latin America, California, and the Rocky Mountains. You're a true veteran of those genres and it would be very cool to team up with you for some work. Bring it on...PM me for contact info.

BTW - I'll be one of the first people to receive the new Epic and Scarlet cameras when they are ready to ship. Depending on when your feature goes into production, the added frame rates, and smaller size of those cameras should make them real good tools for your production.

mike holding

06-11-2009, 10:48 AM

Steve, this is all really useful advice. I had planned on getting the ET equipment you suggest, after reading on these forums of everyone's good experiences.

I agree with you about the doubler on the 150-600 - was never happy with it on 35mm, but thought maybe it worked shooting through the "middle" on Red. (wishful thinking!)

I had also thought of using the solid state drives rather than the Red Drive - expensive I know, but perhaps more resistant to harsh conditions. (what price dropped frames on a high-speed cheetah chase :()

The other question I forgot to ask - how long is it taking you to download and backup a typical day of shooting? I'm trying to decide whether its something myself and an assistant can do in the evenings (much like we used to reload film) or whether I need to hire a data wrangler to do this back in base camp? I normally don't shoot outside of "magic hour" at each end of the day, so on a busy day I might shoot 2 hours total footage. Any advice on backup workflows and equipment welcome, though I know it has been covered in various posts elsewhere.

I sent you a PM (at least I hope I did, not used to all this high-tech internet stuff!)

Steve Gibby

06-11-2009, 11:35 AM

Mike,

With RED being S35, when you use the 150-600, which as you know is designed to cover FF35, you're shooting a crop out of the center of the lens. With the 2x on the 150-600 the minimum aperture is f11 so you need a ton of light - usually much more than you get in "magic hour" shooting. I've never thought the 150-600 is good wide open. I prefer it between f8 and f11 - as you know its the sweet spot of the lens.

The solid state drives (RED RAM) are quite good - but at $4,500 USD per drive they are costly. If you'll be getting excessive bounce while shooting you may want to go for the RED RAM drives. Maybe a combo of some RED RAM drives and some regular RED Drives with ET Shock Mounts would be the best idea.

For backup in the field we've been using duplicate 1 TB hard drives. My Book Studio Edition, with dual FireWire 800 buses have been very dependable for us - plus they're pretty small, thus easier to cart around. We put them in zippered protective cases from Western Digital for traveling. We're also looking for a small mobile LTO datatape solution, so we can back up to one drive, and then one LTO tape in the field. It sounds like you won't have a lot of backing up to do, so no, I don't think you need a separate data wrangler. With a MacBook Pro to check the RED Quicktime dailies, and Firewire 800 buses on the MacBook and the portable drives, the backing up goes real fast after the days shooting - with the amount of daily footage you said you'll have.

I got your PM. A short while ago I sent you of an email reply.

Cheers!

mike holding

06-12-2009, 08:40 AM

Hi Steve

Thanks again - more good info! I think I will equip each kit with 1 x Red Ram per camera, and 2 x Red Drives, plus CF Cards to cover all eventualities.

Daily downloads sound simple enough. I have a bunch of G-Tech drives of various sizes already, which I have found to be very robust, so will probably use those. I had intended to have an LTO system in the main base, for backing up footage on a weekly basis. I'd be interested to know what system you decide to go with.

Is there any answer to my earlier question about the Quicktime proxies being a problem when you shoot at 3K? (I read this on these boards somewhere)

Lauri Kettunen

06-12-2009, 09:02 AM

I will try to borrow one and do some tests - I really do need a zoom / variable focal length ability, because often I'm stuck in one shooting position, surrounded by elephants or whatever, and need to reframe for full sequence coverage!

Sounds familiar. I've found the EF 28-300mm/f3.5-5.6 L IS USM together with a 1.4 extender a rather useful combo especially in a hide. The range from 28mm is 420mm is pretty large.

mike holding

06-12-2009, 09:08 AM

Thanks Lauri - yes that sounds like a good option, and I guess also not that heavy. Again I will try to get my hands on one to run some lens tests.

Steve Gibby

06-12-2009, 09:29 AM

Happy to help...

QT proxies of RED 3k footage play fine for me in the QT player - same as 4k and 2k files.

We usually edit in FCP6. For TV and small screen projects with the 3k files, if we're using RED Alert for color correction and output render, in the render menu we select a Debayer Quality of Half High (selecting Full will take a while to render, and the Half High looks good), select an output format of QuickTime MOV, select ProRes 422 HQ as the QT codec, on the far right check the Scale box, type in 1920x1080, and select Gauss (smooth) from the Resample Filter menu - or other "sharp" or "smooth" resample types you want. Give the file a name and destination and hit render. The 3k file will then scale down and render easily to 1920x1080 ProRes 422 HQ - ready for ingest into FCP and editing.

Since you're going to DI and theatrical output your file processing and output will be more involved, but if you comb the Workflow forum here on RU, you should be able to easily figure out the current workarounds for using 3k files. Hopefully sometime soon with the next upgrades to post applications, many of them will natively recognize 3k files.

If you use FC Studio2, and use the Color application for correction, it won't natively recognize 3k files, but will half scale them down to 1.5k on ingest. For quick or smaller projects that's why we've been using the RED Alert procedure above to quickly one-light 3k files and scale them down to 1920x1080.

All my over-cranked footage for nature and sports is shot in 3k unless I absolutely need a higher frame rate than 3k will afford me, then I may use 2k. Once Epic ships, reportedly (yes, subject to change) much higher frame rates in all resolutions (including 3k) should be a reality. Also the burst frame rates with Scarlet may do real well for short takes of over-cranked action - we'll see. If they're in the final specs for the cameras, those over-cranking capabilities will be way cool for genres who regularly rely on over-cranking footage to get slo-mos and super slo-mos.

Lauri Kettunen

06-12-2009, 12:56 PM

guess also not that heavy.

Mike,

Yes, the 28-300m is not heavy. Indeed, weight is a significant factor in wildlife shooting and the bigger the lens the more sturdy tripod and fluid head is needed. Thinking about long lenses, a practical problem is focusing. When you focus by hand say a 600mm or 800mm lens, the images appears as if there's an earthquake going on.

The nice thing about the Birger EF mount is that it can be controlled wirelessly. So far I've used my laptop for this, but the wireless Viewfactor knob should, according to Birger, be sent today. This makes all the difference as then one can focus and set the iris without touching the camera at all, and this is an advantage with long lenses. Second, the knob maps the focus ring to turn a full circle giving also quite a lot more precise control on the focus than turning the focus ring of the lens. All this implies with the EF mount one can manage with a lighter tripod and fluid head compared to if you used cinema lenses and PL mount.

mike holding

06-13-2009, 12:00 AM

Steve

Thanks regarding 3K proxies. This was a concern as we will be viewing dailies on FCP/Macbook Pro in the field, and the proxies need to be if sufficient quality to spot camera/lens problems etc. From what you describe it looks fairly straightforward, even for the IT challenged (like me!)

The full post production workflow is being handled by a top post-house in London who have quite a bit of experience with RED footage already, I think working with Baselight or a Quantel system (but I might be wrong!) so they have worked out the full workflow/grading/DI process. I just need a methodology so we can view and rough-cut sequences in the field ( to assess basic quality and see what is missing from sequences as we build them) and to keep us all on the same page with regard to framing, style etc.

Do you have any examples of footage shot 3K slomo that I could download and look at? Bear in mind that our internet is VERY slow here in the wilds (I think snails are faster!) so big files are a bit of a problem! About 500 MB is do-able. (overnight)

Thanks again

mike holding

06-13-2009, 12:07 AM

Hi Lauri
I am most comfortable using the biggest, heaviest lenses and fluid head I can use for stability - I'm quite familiar with the earthquake factor! It makes a huge difference to have a solid heavy rig. However, its nice to have a "portable" option for when you need to move the camera around quickly, or rig it in a tree, or carry it any distance. Thats where the Nikon would definitely be an option I think.

Steve Gibby

06-13-2009, 09:00 AM

Mike,

Yes, the QT proxies from RED 3k files will play fine on your MacBook Pro laptop. That's what I use in the field to check dailies. There are four sizes of QT proxy generated: full, high, medium, small. I generally use the high ones. You can select "Fit to screen" from the View menu on the MB and watch full screen.

With RED One, if I know I'm going to be needing overcranked wildlife or sports footage, I set up the camera with : 3k, 16:9, Redcode 36 quality, a project frame rate of 23.98 (24 for you if going to filmout), and use the Varispeed menu to set 48 frames per second, and then set a shutter speed of around 1/120th second. That will give you a smooth 50% slo-mo on playback.

With this setup, when you view your QT proxie dailies, the player will recognize the 24 (or 23.98) frame project rate, but also then recognize your overcrank to 48 fps, and play back the clip in the 50% slow motion which you shot. You can also use the free Redcine software from RED to watch the dailies in slow motion as you shot them. For me, I usually just quickly review dailies using the QT proxies directly from the RED Drive via FireWire 800 to the MM Pro, and toss the shots that didn't work before I backup and offload the footage to other drives. I use this same setup profile when I need good slo-mos from sports, wildlife, aerials, etc.

When Epic and Scarlet (burst) ship, hopefully we will be able to do some amazing overcranked footage of fast motion subjects. We'll see...

You can rough cut sequences on your MB Pro in FCP6 using the RED QT proxies generated by the camera. The Workflow forum has a lot on that procedure.

Hmmm...small file examples of some of my RED 3k slow motion footage you can view online? I do have one example online you can check out. The entire piece was shot on RED. If you click on the "Southern Utah Ranch" link in my signature below, you'll find a short promotional piece I did for the southern Utah buffalo ranch I regularly stay at. There are three sizes of QT video on that page you can view: H.264, medium, small. The H.264 is about 51 MB, and the others are much smaller. Most of the promo was shot in 4k HD, 29.97, 1/96th sec shutter, but there are a few overcranked shots in it I shot using the exact 3k setup I outlined earlier in this post. Those 3k slow motion shots are the shot of two cowboys galloping their horses across a meadow, a shot of cowboys galloping along side a running herd of buffalo, and just after that a shot of a single cowboy sitting on his horse as the buffalo mill about.

50% slo-mos of fast action subjects, shot in 3k with RED using the other setup parameters I outlined above, are glass smooth on playback. The QT proxies play the slow motion, as will Redcine, and FCP.

Hope this helps...

Tom Lowe

06-13-2009, 09:01 AM

Sounds like an amazing project, Mike.

Assuming that Scarlet 2/3" (interchangeable lens version) comes out this year or early next (?), you might consider that camera as well, as it will be extremely portable, and can shoot 3K RAW at up to 120fps, with 150fps burst! Put some big Canon or Nikon glass on that camera, and the magnification factor would be significant. The newer Red models should be better on bootup time, battery life, heat and low-light performance, etc.

Steve Gibby

06-13-2009, 09:11 AM

Definitely Tom...

I pointed to the overcrank possibilities (all specs subject to change) of Epic and Scarlet a few times earlier in this thread.

I'm salivating at the possibilities for both Epic and Scarlet for non-hardlined EFP and hybrid production of sports and wildlife.

Tom Lowe

06-13-2009, 09:33 AM

Steve Gibby

06-13-2009, 10:00 AM

I'm hoping that will be the case Tom. As you know with RED, all specifications are subject to change, so until the specs for Epic and Scarlet are finalized, and stated as such, we can just guess.

I have a feeling the future is going to be very interesting for all of us though...:-)

Tom Lowe

06-13-2009, 10:33 AM

Not to jinx it or anything, but I get the feeling we will be hearing from Red within the next month or two regarding schedules.

Pawel Achtel

06-13-2009, 08:23 PM

Steve, am I correct in assuming it will be easy to mount Canon and Nikon FF35 lenses on the 2/3" "cinema" Scarlet?

Larry Gebhardt was telling me that he's been putting Canon/Nikon FF35 glass on his Sony EX3 with very impressive results, in terms of the images. Obviously the crop factor is enormous for that kind of setup.

One problem in using glass designed for larger image than the acctual sensor is that sharpness will be sacrificed. There is a bit of talk whether the lens "covers the sensor", but what is also important is that if a FF35 lens resolves, say 60lp/mm, it would correspond to over 4k on a FF35 (respectable) and only about 1.4k on a 2/3" sensor (poor).

It is always best to match the lens image circle and the sensor size as close as possible. Remember? Red 300 prime resulted in 25% MTF at 50 lp/mm (reasonably good for FF35), but relatively poor for S35 and compared to 65% MTF of a Master Prime that is matched to the S35 sensor size.

At the very long end, you will get better results from a $60k 40x or 44x HD zoom rather than long still lens on a small sensor.

Steve Gibby

06-14-2009, 08:29 AM

Pawel,

As you might guess I have a very good grasp of the technical side of lenses. I can appreciate comparative properties of the various lens types, their limitations, strengths and weaknesses. But motion media production is a business, and a wise fiscal survival strategy is to balance meeting the technical requirements of our viewing medium (theatrical, HDTV, small screen, disk), and the aesthetic expectations of our audience – while keeping those two parameters within a reasonable budget. Basically it boils down to simultaneously maximizing technology while minimizing expense. This is a business – and every person in it who wants to survive must use good business principles.

This is the EFP/ENG and RED forum. Why even talk about Master Primes here? Yes, Master Primes are excellent cine-style lenses – but they are rarely used in hardlined or non-hardlined EFP style work – because they are too costly, require expensive and bulky cine-style accessories, don’t suit the field needs of most of the genres of EFP work (except narrative sometimes), and on and on. Beyond that, the technical requirements of Producer’s Guidelines for TV networks and the aesthetic expectations of the audience in EFP genres simply don’t require Master Prime levels of lens performance. Horses for courses, right? There’s no need to kill flies with a baseball bat.

This is also a “Wildlife Feature in Africa – 3k and other questions” thread. Master Primes would be an extremely impractical lens choice for wildlife production, where you need long focal lengths, need the ability to change focal lengths constantly for safety and expedience sake (zooms are the ticket for that), and quite often production budgets are moderate or skinny.

Since the topic of this thread is wildlife theatrical production, could you imagine the theater audience for a wildlife documentary like March of the Penguins exchanging comments in the theater like: “Hmmm…the MTF curve and lp/mm performance on these shots just isn’t up to par with Master Primes”, “I don’t think those camera people know enough about image circles”, “How dare them try to sneak in a 35mm stills lens on us!”, etc. No, if the images are compelling and well shot, the audience is happy...:-)

Yes, we have to go left brained enough to analyze and utilize technology and maintain a budget – but we also have to go right brained enough to get out and acquire beautiful, aesthetically pleasing images which will keep our distribution outlets (theaters, TV networks, etc.) and audience happy. With EFP and hybrid production using RED (and Epic and Scarlet to come), especially in a budget-challenged indie world, that quite often involves balancing cost-effective optics and accessories with also achieving the quality of image needed for our distribution outlets and audience – thus we see a lot of RED camera users exploring the good optics/low cost varieties of 35mm stills lenses as a very viable option.

$60k USD B4 2/3” HD zooms on an inexpensive Scarlet 2/3” camera that will be used in mobile production? I just don’t see that happening very often. So again, people will explore the 35mm stills lens options on the Scarlet 2/3” camera, as Tom has brought up. These aren’t people who need or can afford $60k HD zooms, and certainly not Master Primes. They’ll be after the best image they can get with smaller, mobile lenses, usually 35mm stills zooms for EFP and hybrid style work, but also small mobile and inexpensive primes when they do small to mid-budget narrative work.

It’s way too early to define what lenses will or won’t work effectively on a 2/3” Scarlet – or any of the other models of Epic and Scarlet. The technical specs haven’t been finalized yet, let alone field-testing and actual usage experimentation with various lens types on those cameras. At this stage any suggestions for lens usage on those cameras are mere speculation and extrapolation.

Me, Lauri, and others on this thread have given the thread starter, Mike Holding, some very accurate input for RED One solutions for his upcoming production. That’s real-world input from experienced veterans of the wildlife genre who’ve used RED One extensively. Master Primes, or for that matter any primes, simply don’t fit the mobility, danger threat, fleeting behavior, and instantaneous need to re-frame needs of almost all wildlife production. In a stationary blind, and/or for certain types of wildlife production, long primes can be an option. But zooms are the overwhelming choice of lens for that genre – except for a few specialty areas where a lot of short primes are also used (underwater, etc).

Cine zooms are also usually very impractical for wildlife, nature, and sports production with RED – because of their high cost, high weight, low focal length ratios, need for expensive and heavy accessories, etc. B4 2/3” HD zooms on RED One limit you to 2k acquisition only – OK for some productions, but not an option for those who want to shoot 3k (like Mike Holder), or 4k. That leaves 35mm stills zooms, which have done very well on RED in those genres, being cost-effective, small for their focal length range, are optically quite good for the intended distribution outlets – and audiences basically never know the difference. Virtually all shooters with RED in the wildlife, nature, and sports genres also eye focus the camera racking a lens barrel – so gears, follow focus units, etc are not needed – thus cine lenses are again a liability rather than an asset in these genres.

I love various primes and Master Primes – they’re beautiful, well crafted, optically excellent lenses – and I’ve used them at times in other genres when a shot sequence called for such. The new RED Pro Primes are also very excellent lenses. But smart and informed wildlife, nature, and sports shooters with RED One, who are budget conscious, but still want good and mobile optics, overwhelmingly use 35mm stills zooms – for the good reasons I've illustrated above.

Tom Lowe

06-14-2009, 09:46 AM

Since the topic of this thread is wildlife theatrical production, could you imagine the theater audience for a wildlife documentary like March of the Penguins exchanging comments in the theater like: “Hmmm…the MTF curve and lp/mm performance on these shots just isn’t up to par with Master Primes”...

:smilielol5:

Steve, you're just a wimp. Don't you know that when Pawel shoots in Africa, he chases lions across the Serengeti with 50mm Master Primes! :thumbsup:

David Mullen ASC

06-14-2009, 09:47 AM

You know the phrase "if you have a hammer, then everything looks like a nail"? Master Primes are Pawel's hammer... :wink:

Steve Gibby

06-14-2009, 10:05 AM

I can respect that...:-)

To each their own in camera, lens, and accessory choices. For me, I just tend to try and keep an open mind with each project and ask myself: "What's the best camera, lens, and accessory setup options for this project and its budget" - then proceed accordingly.

Its all good Pawel...I'm just illustrating what has worked for me and the others I work with who produce and shoot a lot of projects in the wildlife, nature, sports, and adventure travel genres.

Nick Gardner

06-14-2009, 11:41 AM

Hi, you mentioned using the 24-290 optimo. If you use a 2x extender with that lens, that gets you to 48-580 at around a t 5.6. That's a pretty good compromise, and there should be plenty of light for stopping down to an 8-11ish for snap. Although not as sharp, or fast an Ang. 25-250 HR or HP with 2x would get you more or less the same thing in a smaller package.

I believe a 2x extender on the Ang. 12-240 covers the whole sensor and gets you 24-480mm, although not terribly fast. Stopped down it should be reasonably sharp. And that's smaller still.

It is a challenge to get long and reasonably wide on the full frame sensor, ther is going to be a compromise somewhere.

Cheers,

Nick

David Mullen ASC

06-14-2009, 12:02 PM

Some of the most memorable shots in "Planet Earth" were shot with high-speed Super-16 cameras and though somewhat soft and grainy compared to the HD material, who cares? Whatever allows you to get that once-in-a-lifetime shot...

Sanjin Jukic

06-14-2009, 12:14 PM

I think Gibby was right when he said that Master Primes are mostly not well suited for a wildlife shooting especially in a hot Africa...

a lot of different field risks could be involved for such expensive lenses...

But somebody should know that the Master Primes like a super-speed lenses are more suited for drama/feature/commercial in a highly controled type of work/environment especially at available light:

"Application:

The Master Prime lenses open up new creative opportunities, making shots possible that would have been considered

impossible before. A widest stop of T1.3 allows shooting in low or available light for more natural-looking shots and a

reduction of the lighting budget. In addition, a wide open stop creates the cinematic look of an extremely shallow depth of field."

LINK>>> (http://www.zeiss.com/c125756900453232/Contents-Frame/8414c61e148a5ee9c125756f003d15a9)

I'll give now you one more example about a famous drama/feature where Master Primes used for shooting indoor scenes in "The Reader" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0976051/) by Stephen Daldry,

shot by Roger Deakins and Chris Menges that also were shot with Angenieux Optimo zooms in that film.

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/Reader1.jpg
Roger Deakins BSC, ASC operating remote dolly crane at The Reader.

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/Reader2.jpg
Remote dolly crane at The Reader with Arri 435 and Master Prime lens.

Also it is interesting to mention that Roger Deakins BSC, ASC watching at B&W CRT on-set monitor that means he and his

producers didn't need any special color monitor (16-bit internal processing for grayscale rendering) with a "PROFILE" to judge a picture quality made by Master Primes.

But, terribly sorry, that's a film production, I forgot it!!! :devil:

One more thing:

BTW, Roger Deakins BSC, ASC doesn't owe any Master Prime lens and he has some of Leica M lenses for Leica digital M 8.2 and his photography work.

mike holding

06-16-2009, 12:07 AM

Gibby is on the button once again, particularly in the context of this thread. I have worked on commercial/feature sets (so I know how much choice and control and time there is) and in wildlife, and the modus operadi is so diametrically different that they hardly bear comparison.

I shot a film about African wild dogs years ago – they hunt at 60 km/hr through thickly wooded country, riddled with huge ant-bear holes and fallen trees. Most chases are one minute long from start to finish. I had to be ready on the back of a 4x4 vehicle, anticipate their direction, accelerate to 60km/hr as fast as the vehicle could go, crash through treacherous woodland at that speed, get ahead of the hunt, choose a shooting position in 5 seconds or less, stop the vehicle, get the camera on the head, level, frame, focus and shoot in under 60 seconds. We got so slick at this after a year that from vehicle stop time to camera “rolling” was regularly under 12 seconds! :cool: Only an Arri S 16mm camera, and the 150-600 Canon could withstand this kind of action and allow us to get results, a few precious seconds at a time. Transferred to HD, the shots still look glorious today, and that’s 10 years down the line.

Yes, this is extreme, and not all wildlife shoots are that frantic, but as David Mullen points out, these are once in a lifetime moments that are over in seconds. The camera/ lens combination is a small, final element at the top of a complex pyramid that is based on years of planning, huge logistical complexity, finely tuned bush-craft and knowledge of animals etc etc. And the tools that are useable in a real word scenario are very limited – rugged, reliable cameras, easy to use long zooms, the very best fluid head you can buy. All else will get in the way of the moment. Yes, at the top of the pyramid, in the crucial seconds, a lens must produce a sharp, and hopefully artful image. But the bottom line is instant “use-ability” and practicality under extreme conditions.

Pawel Achtel

06-16-2009, 04:40 AM

This is also a “Wildlife Feature in Africa – 3k and other questions” thread. Master Primes would be an extremely impractical lens choice for wildlife production, where you need long focal lengths, need the ability to change focal lengths constantly for safety and expedience sake (zooms are the ticket for that), and quite often production budgets are moderate or skinny.

Since the topic of this thread is wildlife theatrical production, could you imagine the theater audience for a wildlife documentary like March of the Penguins exchanging comments in the theater like: “Hmmm…the MTF curve and lp/mm performance on these shots just isn’t up to par with Master Primes”, “I don’t think those camera people know enough about image circles”, “How dare them try to sneak in a 35mm stills lens on us!”, etc. No, if the images are compelling and well shot, the audience is happy...:-)
....
I love various primes and Master Primes – they’re beautiful, well crafted, optically excellent lenses – and I’ve used them at times in other genres when a shot sequence called for such. The new RED Pro Primes are also very excellent lenses. But smart and informed wildlife, nature, and sports shooters with RED One, who are budget conscious, but still want good and mobile optics, overwhelmingly use 35mm stills zooms – for the good reasons I've illustrated above.

Steve,

Clearly you didn't understand my point. Probably my fault, but read my post again. I was not suggesting using MPs to shoot wildlife in Africa. That's something you made up. I used MP (S35) and Red 300 (FF35) as an example to ilustrate matching the lens image circle to the sensor size. That's all. You get suboptimal results if you use a lens designed for large image circle onto a smaller crop. The resolution and contrast of the lens degrade proportionally to the crop. Doesn't matter how many hardlined or non-hardlined projects you have done.

What I suggested was using ENG lens for ENG work. Also ENG camera would be a better match. Mike already mentioned he was shooting with the HJ 40x14and HJ 18x28 lenses on 2/3” HD cameras and, for that kind of magnification, I think ENG camera and ENG lens would produce superior results than 2/3" scarlet with a still FF35 lens. Horses for courses.

My point is that HJ40x produces beautiful pictures on F900 or Panasonic and, at this focal length, I can't see Mike getting better results on Scarlet 2/3" with long still lens.

David Rasberry

06-16-2009, 05:18 AM

2/3" Scarlet should be an ideal camera for high quality B4 HD lenses or S16 lenses with the appropriate mount. B4 is supposed to be a supported option for this camera. The HJ40X should produce superior images compared to 35mm still lenses on this camera for all the reasons that Pawel lists. There are certainly a lot more zoom options with B4 than any other format these days.

Dave Blackham

06-16-2009, 05:25 AM

6) I anticipate using (budget permitting) Angenieux Optimo 17-80, 24-290, and Canon 150-600 lenses. Does anyone have any alternative lens suggestions they have used successfully for this type of film?

Check out the Long Leica R modular lenses 280/400/560/800 they are superb. The focus units can be relativly easily converted to PL.

We have been using 3K with some sucsess for similar subjects. Graeme may be able to give a real resolution figure for 3K, its quite a bit better than HD or 2K for practical use anyway.

Dave

Tom Lowe

06-16-2009, 07:04 AM

So Scarlet 2/3" + HJ40X is the dream setup, huh?

Steve Gibby

06-16-2009, 08:52 AM

Steve,

Clearly you didn't understand my point. Probably my fault, but read my post again. I was not suggesting using MPs to shoot wildlife in Africa. That's something you made up. I used MP (S35) and Red 300 (FF35) as an example to ilustrate matching the lens image circle to the sensor size. That's all. You get suboptimal results if you use a lens designed for large image circle onto a smaller crop. The resolution and contrast of the lens degrade proportionally to the crop. Doesn't matter how many hardlined or non-hardlined projects you have done.

No, I clearly understood where you were going with the MP’s. Setting them up as the standard for lp/mm, and then a discourse on comparative image circles. You entirely missed my points. “Suboptimal results” is a largely subjective term. Precise image circle matching of lenses for sensor size for wildlife, nature, and sports shooting is nowhere near as critical as it is for the narrative genres which are the staple in trade for MPs and other high end primes. 35mm still zooms and some primes have been and are now used heavily for shooting wildlife, nature, and sports with RED One. Even for productions in those genres destined for theatrical release, and certainly for HDTV and disk use, 35mm stills lenses on RED are fine. Again, you’re drawing conclusions on what lenses will or won’t work well on a 2/3” Scarlet without the technical specifications of that camera even being finalized and released, much less field tested with a variety of lenses. IMO you’ve jumped to conclusions that shouldn’t be drawn yet.

What I suggested was using ENG lens for ENG work. Also ENG camera would be a better match. Mike already mentioned he was shooting with the HJ 40x14and HJ 18x28 lenses on 2/3” HD cameras and, for that kind of magnification, I think ENG camera and ENG lens would produce superior results than 2/3" scarlet with a still FF35 lens. Horses for courses.

First of all Pawel, if you’re going to post 2/3” lens recommendations here on the EFP/ENG for RED forum, I think you should get your acronyms right. ENG is an acronym for Electronic News Gathering. RED One is almost never used for ENG. If you need a primer on the difference between EFP and ENG you can find a summary of that in my sticky thread at the head of this forum. Secondly, the HJ40 and most other high-end HD 2/3” lenses of long focal length are not ENG lenses, and are virtually never used in ENG. They are used extensively in both non-hardlined and hardlined EFP – Electronic Field Production. B4 2/3” lenses on RED must use the RED B4 adaptor to spread the image 6% to cover 2k. I’ve owned a RED B4 adaptor since August 207, when I took delivery of my first RED camera. The image is slightly softer than a 2k image shot without the adaptor glass. With B4 lenses on RED you’re limited to 2k shooting. Using Graeme’s .78 debayer factor, 2k debayers down to around 1.34k. That simply won’t cut it for Mike Holding’s theatrical wildlife production. Frankly, I don’t think that would be as good an image on a 2/3” Scarlet as that of using a 35mm stills lens and shooting 3k, rather than the 2k you'd be limited to with a B4 2/3" HD zoom. I’ll have one of the very first Scarlet (and Epic) cameras, so I’ll be one of the first to field test Scarlet (and Epic) with a variety of lenses. Then we’ll know performance parameters of different lens types on those cameras. Horses for courses? How about the right tool for the right job. B4 2/3” HD lenses have rarely been the “right tool” on RED One, and probably will also rarely be the “right tool” on Scarlet and Epic. If Mike Holding shoots his wildlife feature on Scarlet and Epic, it would most likely be a S35 or FF35 Scarlet and a S35 Epic X – which will undoubtedly do extremely well with 35mm stills zooms – just as RED One has.

My point is that HJ40x produces beautiful pictures on F900 or Panasonic and, at this focal length, I can't see Mike getting better results on Scarlet 2/3" with long still lens.

You’re preaching to the choir now Pawel. There is absolutely nobody with a RED One camera who has experimented as long, and with as many B4 2/3” HD lenses on RED One as me. At times I have used about every high-end 2/3” HD lens made on RED One, from Fujinon and Canon – including the B4 lenses Mike Holding asked about and you referred to. At various times since RED User was formed, I’ve posted lots of photos of my REDs with a multitude of B4 2/3’ HD zooms. For that last National Geographic Channel wildlife documentary I was one of the executive producers and a DP for, shot extensively in Alaska, we used RED One underwater (with an Arri 8R and RED 18-50), and on land (with a Canon 150-600), but we also used an F900 with various HD EFP zooms, and for aerial and boat-mounted CineFlex shooting we used a Sony HDC1500 with a Fujinon 42x9.7 and a Fujinon wide angle. If you’d spent any time at all on this EFP/ENG for RED forum you’d know I’m the wrong guy to preach to about the plusses and minuses of 2/3” cameras and HD EFP/ENG zooms.

-------------

I can appreciate your enthusiasm for your Master Primes, and you seem to have a pretty good technical knowledge of lenses. But I think you need to reserve judgment on the nuances and limitations of a 2/3” Scarlet until the specifications are finalized and guys like me who get the first cameras have a chance to test them out with a variety of lenses. Then we can draw some conclusions on what will and won’t work well on them. But IMO at this point left-brained lp/mm and image circle data extrapolation on 2/3” Scarlet performance parameters is extremely premature.

Steve Gibby

06-16-2009, 08:55 AM

So Scarlet 2/3" + HJ40X is the dream setup, huh?

Nope...

David Rasberry

06-16-2009, 09:25 AM

2/3" Scarlet is 3k resolution in an 11mm image circle. It will take lenses with higher resolving power than 35mm still lenses to get the best results out of this camera. S16 or B4 premium lenses will be necessary. I was not suggesting that this is better image wise than 4k S35 with larger format lenses any more than I would suggest S16 film as a superior alternative to 35mm. It does offer significant size, weight and portability advantages for field use.

It will be interesting to see how 2/3" 3k with good 16mm/B4 glass compares with 3k cropped S35 with 35mm glass.

Steve Gibby

06-16-2009, 09:44 AM

It will be interesting to see how 2/3" 3k with good 16mm/B4 glass compares with 3k cropped S35 with 35mm glass.

Yes, that's what I've been saying. I think wisdom dictates that we reserve judgment on what lenses work well on a 2/3" Scarlet until we have on in our hands and experiment with lenses on it. Even then, the end use of the footage will be a variable. For theatrical use the "look" requirements will be high, but for HDTV and disk use of the footage, we should have more flexibility.

As you know, there is no universal "right lens" for cameras like RED, Scarlet, and Epic - just the "right lens" for each production or portions thereof. Also, we have no idea what magic RED has in store for us inside Scarlet...

The producer in me thinks: I like tech specs, but to me it is trumped by real world performance of a lens on a camera and how/where it can be used to keep the audience and distribution outlets happy - without killing the project budget.

mike holding

06-16-2009, 12:01 PM

I think the point I was trying to get to originally was this - the project is not an HD finish - if it was, I would have no hesitation in going forward with a traditional HD camera, using 2/3 " lenses like the HJ40 and HJ18 which, along with the almost indestructible Varicam, are tried and trusted tools that give great results for an HD project like Planet Earth, and I might add, looked pretty respectable when printed back to 35mm for Disneys "Earth" feature release. Rather this is a film finish for the cinema screen, so for a 2K DI/Film out, I'd like to shoot in 3K or 4K res. That means 35mm lens sets, and shooting 3K for 60fps and 4K for wides and aerials. I was looking for "real world" lens solutions pertinent to a wildlife filmmaking application, using affordable cameras that have been tried and tested in the field.:)

mike holding

06-16-2009, 12:14 PM

Steve Gibby

06-16-2009, 02:06 PM

Getting back to long zoom lenses, has anyone shot a comparative test between the Angenieux 25-250 HR/HD and the 24-290 at 3K or 4K res? I'd be interested to know how the 25-250 holds up against the newer lens (for this application of course :cool:)

Here's a real-world comparative test between those two lenses Mike - rather than a shootout of charts or comparative lp/mm speculation:

Two months ago, on the 10 RED camera production of the classic rock band Journey in concert in Manila, Philippines, I served as a DP and one of the shoulder held cinematographers in front of the stage. For the four long lens REDs on sticks and the dolly camera we used three Angenieux 24-290, and two Angenieux 25-250. For the Steadcam, 40' jib, and all three shoulder held (on ET Mantis units) cameras we used Nikon zooms. All footage was shot in 4k HD, 29.97, Redcode 36, at 1/120th second.

The footage from all ten REDs, with that mix of cine lenses and 35mm stills lenses, is being edited as we speak for a world release Blu Ray, DVD, and eventually HDTV release. The footage from all those cameras is cutting together extremely well. There is no big difference between the "look" of the two different lens type footage. After color correction they are intercutting pretty much seamlessly - $75K cine lenses with $1,500 Nikon lenses. Those who doubt that are welcome to buy the Blu Ray and see for themselves. Is the 25-250 as crisp and good a lens as a 24-290? No. Will well-shot footage from the two cut together well? Yes. Are the top-end Nikon (or other 35mm stills lenses) as crisp and good a lens as the 24-290? Some well shot 35mm stills footage on RED can look as crisp as that of the 24-290, and the rest of it can look close - easily close enough to intercut between the two. As a DP on that production there's no way I was going to recommend all cine lenses to the producer, and in the process spend a lot more of his money - just so we could brag about using all "proper" cine lenses. Heck no! Plus we knew that all cameras would be eye focused. Me and the other DP (Champe Barton) kept open minds, analyzed the project lens needs in terms of format coverage (4k), focal lengths, mobility, optical results, and lensed each camera accordingly. And in the process saved the producer a ton of money, while also exceeding the final production values we wanted.

On the Alaska wildlife Nat Geo documentary I worked on and referenced in my previous post, the footage from the various camera and lens types cut together just fine - RED-shot Arri 8R and RED 18-50 for underwater (4k), RED-shot Canon 150-600 for some land shots (4k), F900R-shot high end Fujinon B4 2/3" footage, and HDC1500-shot high end Fujinon B4 2/3" footage. That's 35mm stills (RED), B4 2/3" HD (shot on 2/3" cameras), and cine lens (RED), all cutting together quite well after color correction. We simply used the right tools for each portion of the project...

That's two good, current, and high end project examples Mike...

The people who are constantly crowing about the optical superiority of their cine lenses are usually trying to protect a capital investment they have made in them, are too narrow minded to bring themselves to "stoop" to using a 35mm stills lens, work in straight cine environments where using 35mm stills lenses isn't an option, don't know how to shoot without the security blanket of five or six people helping them, and/or just never learned to eye focus a camera hybrid and EFP style - so they take shots at other's choices and needs just to justify their own needs or choices. Yes, high end cine lenses are optically wonderful, but they're also overpriced, huge and immobile, and require a lot of bulky and expensive accessories to operate. Conversely the top level 35mm stills lenses are probably 95% as good optically as the top cine lenses, much less expensive, smaller and more mobile, don't require expensive accessories to function (MB, FF, drop in filters, etc.), are simple for an experienced hybrid or EFP shooter to eye focus, are very kind to your project budget, and will get you an end product image that is very close to that of the high-end cine lenses. I also notice that the top-end 35mm stills lenses are usually left out of the optical bench test "shootouts" - those tests are conveniently limited to proper cine lenses. :-). Got some turf to protect boys? But in many real world projects, well shot 35mm stills footage on RED can and does intercut amazingly well with the top-end cine lens footage. While some people in this industry seem to endlessly pontificate and quibble over camera and lens tech specs - many others are out here with open minds actively experimenting and discovering some surprising results. I thinks its very good to pay close attention to camera and lens tech specs - but not at the expense of closing our minds to real world experimentation and the possibility of disproving some myths we may have believed in.

As for B4 2/3" HD lenses versus 35mm stills lenses on a 2/3" Scarlet - all the data and extrapolation in the world isn't going to produce definitive real-world production conclusions. That can only be reached by real world shooting with various lens types on the camera. Nobody has done that yet, but just as I have as an early adopter of RED One, you can bet I'll be experimenting with all lens types when I receive one of the very first Scarlet cameras.

Mike, I think you're definitely on the right track with your lens and format choices for your feature - and as well as you shoot, I really expect it to be a stellar production. The quality of your previous work speaks for itself as being top-drawer...

Pawel Achtel

06-16-2009, 03:11 PM

So Scarlet 2/3" + HJ40X is the dream setup, huh?

Yep. :devil:

Pawel Achtel

06-16-2009, 03:15 PM

Here's a real-world comparative test between those two lenses Mike - rather than a shootout of charts or comparative lp/mm speculation:....

The people who are constantly crowing about the optical superiority of their cine lenses are usually trying to protect a capital investment they have made in them, are too narrow minded to bring themselves to "stoop" to using a 35mm stills lens, work in straight cine environments where using 35mm stills lenses isn't an option, don't know how to shoot without the security blanket of five or six people helping them, and/or just never learned to eye focus a camera hybrid and EFP style - so they take shots at other's choices and needs just to justify their own needs or choices.

You still don't seem to get the point of my post, Steve :Yawn:

Steve Gibby

06-16-2009, 03:31 PM

:mad2: ... Yup, I do...

This Scarlet 2/3" lens use results is presently all just moot talk...

I'll be receiving some of the first Scarlet and Epic cameras, and I'll naturally be more than happy to test out a myriad of lens types on the 2/3" Scarlet - and share those results here on RED user - just as I've done with RED One.

I have no grudge toward you Pawel. You seem to have some excellent tech knowledge of lenses. You also own some pretty amazing lenses - the Master Primes. That's cool...

Have fun shooting. No worries Mate!

Peace...

Pawel Achtel

06-16-2009, 03:39 PM

Cheers, Steve. I'll be very interested in your results.

BTW, I did recently use MPs for a very remote wildlife shoot. It was a nightmare compared to a traditional 2/3" HD ENG/EFP zoom lens that I am used to. The shooting ratio went out the window. So, I do agree with some of your comments. :)

Good shooting:)

mike holding

06-16-2009, 11:16 PM

[QUOTE=Steve Gibby;437004] Here's a real-world comparative test between those two lenses Mike - rather than a shootout of charts or comparative lp/mm speculation:

Steve, thanks for this comprehensive feedback - this is what its all about for me - real world results, happy producer and editor and colorist, not a chart in sight! :cool:

The question regarding the two Angeniuex lenses is obviously a budget-related one - if the older 25-250 HR produces good results, then the budget can afford a wider array of lenses, or more drives, or whatever is needed - which makes us more versatile in the field.

By the way, I'm interested as to why you shoot 1/120th sec - I am so used to shooting 1/48th to emulate a "film look" - am I missing something obvious?

It seems from what I have read on these forums that changing back and forth to the Nikon mount, while not complicated, is probably not a sensible field option for us, and that I should try to lens the cameras with PL mount kit. What are the Canon mount options?

I have a nice Super16 Canon (in PL), 11.5 - 165 - do you happen to know if this will cover the 3K window, or only the 2K option?

I will put together a final "wish list" on the kit and PM for your opinion/advice, if I may?

The last question is this - can anyone point me in the right direction with regard to sources for good second-hand cine lenses, and also Nikon lenses? There are dozens of websites of course, (no way I'm buying of eBay:)) but its hard for me to know who is reputable. There is little available here in the wilds of Africa!

mike holding

06-16-2009, 11:26 PM

Oh, and thanks for the compliment Steve.

Lively discussion is definitely healthy, but I'm glad to see you and Pawel made peace! :thumbsup: - I was getting a bit nervous there! :couch:

Tom Lowe

06-17-2009, 07:59 AM

mike, i see on your website that you managed to capture a still of pawel and steve in action:

http://www.afriscreen.com/images/images_07.jpg

haha just kidding guys! :thumbsup:

when are you hoping to start shooting? you're already in Botswana, or is that your base of operations?

Steve Gibby

06-17-2009, 09:25 AM

By the way, I'm interested as to why you shoot 1/120th sec - I am so used to shooting 1/48th to emulate a "film look" - am I missing something obvious?

It seems from what I have read on these forums that changing back and forth to the Nikon mount, while not complicated, is probably not a sensible field option for us, and that I should try to lens the cameras with PL mount kit. What are the Canon mount options?

I have a nice Super16 Canon (in PL), 11.5 - 165 - do you happen to know if this will cover the 3K window, or only the 2K option?

I will put together a final "wish list" on the kit and PM for your opinion/advice, if I may?

The last question is this - can anyone point me in the right direction with regard to sources for good second-hand cine lenses, and also Nikon lenses? There are dozens of websites of course, (no way I'm buying of eBay:)) but its hard for me to know who is reputable. There is little available here in the wilds of Africa!

I sometimes shoot 23.98 at 1/48th sec for an HDTV finish – when the subject matter is relatively stationary – beauty B-roll and 2nd unit footage. But when there is any kind of rapid motion in the subject matter I usually shoot 29.97 at 120th sec. The reason for that is I’m not a big fan of 24p judder in fast motion subjects. The additional frames of 29.97, and getting above a 180-degree shutter somewhat (1/120th sec) makes for a smooth presentation of fast subjects. If the footage is well lit and well shot, it still looks very filmic – but smooth. I shoot a lot of fast running animals, fast moving sports objects and people, and a lot of aerials. For all those we use a ton of slow motion playbacks. If I’m shooting 3k of those subjects with RED it is usually at a 23.98 project frame rate, 48 fps in Varispeed for a 50% slo-mo, and a shutter speed of 120. Those parameters have given us the smoothest slow motion in post. When shooting 2k with RED for slo-mos, I use a project frame rate of 23.98, Varispeed overcrank of 120 fps, and a shutter speed of 1/196th. The slo-mos are glass smooth using that combo.

With practice you can change from PL to Nikon mount on RED in about 5 minutes. Back focus on RED One is via a twisting collar behind the mount. I mark on the collar where BF is for both PL and Nikon, thus saving me from having to BF the camera after every mount change. In reality, though, obviously you want to be sure you don’t have a bunch of dust flying around when you change mounts – a hindrince to changing mounts out in the bush.

Looking forward, RED has said they intend to make the mounts changeable on Epic and Scarlet by four bolts – a procedure they say will take about a minute. Then BF is adjusted quickly by tweaking movable sensor block. They have said they plan to make RED, PL, Canon, and Nikon mounts for those cameras. All things with RED are subject to change – so we’ll see how that comes out.

The only Canon mount option for RED One is the Birger mount – a smart mount that controls Canon lenses.

Your Super16 lens will not cover 3k. It will cover 2k.

For used cine lenses Duclos Lenses in the L.A. area is quite good. So is Focus Optics, again in the L.A. area. Both those are also excellent for cine lens servicing. I’m sure there are also other good cine lens places you can find.

For used Nikon lenses I’ve had very good luck with B&H Photo in New York. I own 21 Nikon lenses that I use on RED One – with excellent results!

Cheers :-)