Pre-order benefit vs. Buying when released?

[NormLi]

I feel like I am ready to click the order button but hesitant in doing it because I'm not sure whether it's best to just buy the camera when it is released 1 year from now or pre-order it now? What's the difference in doing that...because if I do it now, a deposit of $2555 USD is required which limits cashflow or builds credit card interest. I'm sure this has been discussed before but I couldn't find anything on it so any insight would be great.

Thanks.

[Jarred Land]

you can go either way.. ordering it now just moves you many, many months ahead of joe public. i imagine once the camera starts shipping, the orders will continue to outpace the supply for quite some time.

[Adrian Correia]

welcome Norm...good to see you here....just put the money down man!

[Gavin Greenwalt]

If you get one job in the time between when you get it and you would have gotten it had you not pre-ordered. It should pay off any interest you might have accumulated.

If you don't think it'll make a difference in your income then the interest is effectively entertainment spending and I would look at the deposit the same as buying a big screen TV.

[Andrew Benz]

...and I would look at the deposit the same as buying a big screen TV.

Hi Norm,

In addition to Gavin's statement above, it should be re-iterated that the deposit is fully refundable at any time. *Edit* Norm, if you have multiple streams of revenue to support the purchase you should do so and learn everything you can about the camera system and apply it to your craft. Nice website, now go get a RED--- especially in your market ;-)

Cheers,

Andrew

[Tom Lowe]

who cares about pre-order vs this or that.... sheesh.

[NormLi]

Tom,

I only ask because I wanted to see if there was an advantage at all in pre-ordering now or not compared to just buying the camera as soon as it is released. It's a fair question and I'm not sure about you, but not everyone has the luxury of dishing out wads of cash. :glare:

Hey Jarred, how's it going? It's been a while!

[Desert Rune]

It's always prudent to move the high interest credit card charges to a low interest personal loan account at the end of each month. :)

I still think renting is the way to go especially since buying a compete kit will run you over $35K plus taxes and duties. Although it's a foregone conclusion the rental houses with the early RED units will price gouge to what the hungry market will bear.

[Adrian Correia]

the only real benefit, besides having the camera earlier has already expired. The first group of deposit holders got a credit towards accessories...but alas that has passed.

For me personally, I just didn't want to shoot on lower end formats anymore. The sooner I get this camera, the sooner I can start producing imagery that will lend my reel a little more legitimacy. I have lost jobs because of people who were "worried" that I had too much DV on my reel....

[NormLi]

I see, so basically the benefit of having it before everyone even if I pre-order it this minute is gone? I would like to have it before it is 'officially' released by mass-production to the public (which should only be a few months after it's pre-orders release?) but if the opportunity to have it earlier is gone since there are already so many pre-orders, then there's no point in dishing out the 10% deposit this early in the game anymore. I hope someone can prove otherwise! :)

[Gavin Greenwalt]

By the time you get your hands on it there will be 2000 of the suckers out in the field.

I'm assuming (and hoping) rental demand will have calmed down by March of 2008.

[NormLi]

I see that but I a majority of those won't have full feature sets right? I wouldn't want a camera without all of the features working and paying the same amount for it as someone else who receives their a few months later with full features. Unless I'm missing something?

2000 of them would be spread out across the world though, and a majority of them in the US I'm assuming. I'm sure there's lots in TO and Vancouver here in Canada but I'm not sure 'how many'...wish I knew!

[Andrew Benz]

I see that but I a majority of those won't have full feature sets right? I wouldn't want a camera without all of the features working and paying the same amount for it as someone else who receives their a few months later with full features. Unless I'm missing something?

2000 of them would be spread out across the world though, and a majority of them in the US I'm assuming. I'm sure there's lots in TO and Vancouver here in Canada but I'm not sure 'how many'...wish I knew!

Hi Norm,

If you want to gauge ownership of REDS in these areas I would start w/ the user group area of this forum--- there will be many by the looks of it... Also, feature sets not being fully enabled will not affect you... hell, it will barely affect me... #557 will be 98% enabled last I read and those last features would be RGB... All cameras are both software and hardware up gradeable... all software upgrades are free for the life of the camera per Jannard... Jim would not accept a camera that would come from the factory w/ problems and You will not have to as well (per Jim). I would politely say that you are missing quite a bit of info to make a buying decision... READ Brook's FAQ, go back and read some of Jannard's (or other RED Team members), Gibby's posts... I would be happy just to have a RED right now with RUN/STOP but that's me...

Cheers and good luck Norm,

Andrew

[Sam Druckerman]

Here's another point of view....

Let's say for arguments sake that there are many many people who will order a Red as soon as they ....

1. Hear about it.

2. See that production is in fact rolling out cameras that are without issues.

3. Hear the rave reviews that will follow the 4 Hollywood beta productions.

4. See the actual footage like the PJ short on a big screen.

5. When many of the current reservation holders come up with enough money for more cameras.

6. Hear the results from Gibby's Test.

Etc, etc.

By placing your order now, you may be securing your place in line before as many as thousands of new orders. And all you have to do is risk the cost of a nice dinner.

For the cost of a nice dinner out you can secure your place in line.

The deposit for a red is $1,750.00

If you calculate by the current high yield interest rates... lets say 5% and multiply that by 8 months =

$70.00

The risk is only the interest you would loose on the money that was in your savings.

If you can get in line for the price of a dinner out with your girl? It's seems like no brainer, to me anyway.

If you change your mind after 8 months and cancel your order, you just lost $70.00... Not that big a deal.

[mdo]

I see that but I a majority of those won't have full feature sets right? I wouldn't want a camera without all of the features working and paying the same amount for it as someone else who receives their a few months later with full features. Unless I'm missing something?

2000 of them would be spread out across the world though, and a majority of them in the US I'm assuming. I'm sure there's lots in TO and Vancouver here in Canada but I'm not sure 'how many'...wish I knew!

Any missing features will be associated with software, not hardware. The camera is designed so that software upgrades will be simple and straightforward, and there will be no charge for the upgrades needed to bring cameras up to full functionality. But persons who order now won't be affected by that because full functionality will be enabled before those who are currently in the latter part of the queue get their cameras.

If you order now, you'll get a delivery date in early 2008. How much later will that delivery date be pushed if you wait until early 2008 to order? No one knows. If there's a buying frenzy once people figure out that the cameras are real, you could be waiting months. That's the gamble you take. For my part, it's not a gamble I would want to make for a few grand, but depends on what your needs are.

Mike

[mdo]

If you can get in line for the price of a dinner out with your girl? It's seems like no brainer, to me anyway.

Good point. It's not even a few grand at stake. "No brainer" is the correct term.

[donatello b]

you can look at the RED map to get an rough idea of where 485 ( persons - some may have more then one red ) REDs will call home

http://www.reduser.net/forum/membermap.php

[Andrew Benz]

you can look at the RED map to get an rough idea of where 485 ( persons - some may have more then one red ) REDs will call home ( note: not all have listed their camera's)

http://www.reduser.net/forum/membermap.php

Nice one Don, I forgot all about the REDuser map.:nerd:

Andrew

[NormLi]

I'm sold!!! ORDERING one now!

Thanks guys :) $70 is nothing...never thought about it that way.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

The deposit for a red is $1,750.00

If you calculate by the current high yield interest rates... lets say 5% and multiply that by 8 months =

$70.00


I'm not sure I entirely agree with that perspective because that $1,750 while invested in a deposit is money that can't be spent on other projects. That could be one more day of kit rental shooting a short etc etc.

Unless of course you aren't anywhere near your credit limits in which case yes it would only be $70 lost.

Still I always get reallllly ancy when people start getting encouraged to just extend their debt further.

[NormLi]

Yeah, I'm pretty far in debt right now...which makes me antsy as well. But after MilkGirls, I can't help but want to be in debt more :)

[Jason Francois]

Judging by your past work Norm, you should definitely have this camera as soon as you can.

You can always come down to AZ and practice with mine to make sure you like it. :)

J.

[NormLi]

Appreciate the offer but I think practicing in Vancouver might help :)
I noticed there's only 6 registered users that purchased the camera here in BC. I heard Plus8 and Panavision bought 5 or so... and so did Sim Video.

Yeah, that would be great to own this camera asap! So am I looking at Feb 2008 or so?

[NormLi]

If all the features are software/firmware upgradeable, no problem...that's okay. I thought it was hardware based...which would be inconvenient but I was wrong (didn't do enough research!).

I guess if you only order the camera body, the deposit is $1750 but I'm planning on purchasing, the body, cine production pack, EVF, and red drive, which I believes comes out to $25500 USD... so the deposit is slightly higher at $2555 USD. I'll just order and transfer to low interest rate account and sit on it :)

[NormLi]

UPDATE! I JUST ORDERED IT!!! It doesn't say what my reservation # is compared to everyone else though on the invoice. :(

[mdo]

UPDATE! I JUST ORDERED IT!!! It doesn't say what my reservation # is compared to everyone else though on the invoice. :(

Congrats on the purchase! Don't know why Red numbers aren't on the invoices. Those below 1,500 are blessed with Red numbers. The rest of us are just honored to be in the queue.

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

By placing your order now, you may be securing your place in line before as many as thousands of new orders. And all you have to do is risk the cost of a a nice dinner.

Hell, I thought Norway was expensive...

NormLi: Welcome on board, I am sure you will not regret it! Especially when your red #2xxx ships, and the line is up to 5xxx

(BTW: RED no longer gives you a specified serial number, but Jim Jannard recently claimed the orders were up to about 2000 units, so you´re probably between 2100-2300 or something...)

[Jason Francois]

UPDATE! I JUST ORDERED IT!!! It doesn't say what my reservation # is compared to everyone else though on the invoice. :(

Congrats Norm!!!

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

$70 for a nice dinner isn't expensive, if you're talking about you and a girl, let's say. For one person obviously that's getting up there, but for two it's nothing. Everywhere arond me in downtown L.A. is so expensive, it gets frustrating. There's no middle ground where I am, it's either Subway for $7 with a few cookies or it's like $35+ anywhere else. I ate at The Palms a while back and didn't order a single alcoholic drink, just a coke, and it was $50 with an appetizer, the cheapest entre I could get, and the tip.

I think that's a good way to look at it for the RED, but I'd also say if you can't afford to part with $1,750 to $2,500 for a while, money you will either get back if you cancel or that will go towards your RED, I'd say maybe the camera isn't something you should buy...

[Sam Druckerman]

UPDATE! I JUST ORDERED IT!!! :(


Congratulations! You did the right thing.



I'm not sure I entirely agree with that perspective because that $1,750 while invested in a deposit is money that can't be spent on other projects. That could be one more day of kit rental shooting a short etc etc.

Unless of course you aren't anywhere near your credit limits in which case yes it would only be $70 lost.

Still I always get reallllly ancy when people start getting encouraged to just extend their debt further.


My cost / risk scenario is based on money you already have in the bank and the deposit is refundable if you change your mind.

But, I guess if you're going for a Red on a tight budget why not start paying a little in advance.

Either way the actual $ risk is very low to hold a place in line with a reservation.



Hell, I thought Norway was expensive...



LOL The last two Saturday nights, the dinner bill for me and a date was more like $100.

[Sam Druckerman]

I think that's a good way to look at it for the RED, but I'd also say if you can't afford to part with $1,750 to $2,500 for a while, money you will either get back if you cancel or that will go towards your RED, I'd say maybe the camera isn't something you should buy...

I agree...

But, $70.00 to hold your place can give you time to think through the purchase.... and to see how your finances are going in the near future.... still makes sense.

[Andrew Benz]

Congrats Norm!!!


Hell, I thought Norway was expensive...

NormLi: Welcome on board, I am sure you will not regret it! Especially when your red #2xxx ships, and the line is up to 5xxx

Congratulations Norm, now that you have taken the plunge, will you buying either (or both) of the two zooms, the primeset or one of the other mount solutions? I know you were worried about debt, just curious about how you are looking at the various lens solutions, but given the fact you live in Vancouver you have great rental solutions...

Anyway, goodluck.

[NormLi]

I think it's not so much the $70 interest I'm worried about. It's more about an actual $2555 USD eating into the cashflow. However, since it is refundable at anytime (why would I do that anyway!), it does give me a sense of security in case I go into financial ruins for some reason.

I currently have an Arri SR2 Highspeed Super16mm package that has a 7-65mm Canon zoom, 11-165mm Canon zoom, and Zeiss Superspeeds MK1 set. All are Super16mm PL mount lenses though so I can probably "only" shoot 2K with that but if and when I see more rentals coming in or if there is a large number of rentals that justifies purchasing the RED zooms, I'll do it...along with building my RED accessories. Right now, bare basics is better until I see the need arises :)

Happy I ordered it.

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

$70 for a nice dinner isn't expensive

I answered on part of the 1750 deposit, now that´s a meal!

[Steve Gibby]

Happy I ordered it.

Welcome to the group of people who have reserved and ordered RED One cameras. I reserved my first RED One camera (#8) in the very first minute of the very first day that RED took reservations, in April 2006. My only regret is that I didn't reserve my second camera (#700) that day, but waited until the October 2006 reservation period. If I had it to do over again, I would have reserved four more RED One cameras the same day/time that I reserved #8. Hindsight is 20/20 for sure!

IMO the key factor in an equipment purchase decision is whether or not you will use it regularly, I.E. will it generate significant revenue? If I get a "yes" answer to that question, then I purchase it. I also ask the same question of myself with all other lenses and accessories - "Will I use this regularly?". A "yes" answer brings a purchase. A no answer relegates the equipment to the "rent it on a per project basis, and build it into the budget for that project" category.

As in demand as RED One cameras will be, and with the wide variety of cine-style and EFP style projects RED One can be used on, I don't forsee anyone with any significant degree of business sense not being able to pay for their RED One camera very quickly and then graduate from red ink (no pun intended!) to black ink on their spreadsheets.

IMO you made a good choice Norm...

[Adrian Correia]

congrats Norm! Looks like that reel will keep getting bigger...

[Finner]

Hi Norm

My name is Daren I live in Calgary and looked into buying a set of stix you were selling on e-bay a while back. I remember mentioning to you in some e-mails that I had reserved a red 1 and you mentioned you had looked into it a little bit. Good to see you took the plunge.

cheers

[Andrew Benz]

I currently have an Arri SR2 Highspeed Super16mm package that has a 7-65mm Canon zoom, 11-165mm Canon zoom, and Zeiss Superspeeds MK1 set. All are Super16mm PL mount lenses though so I can probably "only" shoot 2K with that but if and when I see more rentals coming in or if there is a large number of rentals that justifies purchasing the RED zooms, I'll do it...along with building my RED accessories. Right now, bare basics is better until I see the need arises :)

Happy I ordered it.

Damn Norm, what an incredibly flexible dual camera package. Fantastic for commercial, doc., narrative , sports, etc. I think you have your clients both old and new well covered. The overlap in formats and capabilities between the two seemingly disparate sytems with your zooms and primes are spot on!!! :ninja: :nuke:

[NormLi]

Yes, I'm still a film advocate but it really is hard to sell film anymore with cameras like RED that will take over the indie market, and who knows, the Hollywood market as well? I'm actually not too impressed with the online footage of "Crossing the Line" (yes, I know it's only an 1K extraction) but it looks extremely digital to me and flat. However, if the footage from RED will look like the Milkgirls 1080p file...I'm sold 1000% on RED! That looks identical to film and is so clean and filmic.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

The only thing more satisfying than spending one's own money is spending someone else's. Congrats ;)

Glad to see another RED out in the world in capable hands.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I answered on part of the 1750 deposit, now that´s a meal!

Yeah dude that better be a few fine bottles of wine huh?! haha ;)

My dad said the most expensive meals he had were over in France, because of the weak dollar, and because they were eating at high-end places, and it wouldn't be unusual for my parents to eat $300 lunches and $500 dinners, with wine included, etc. But like my dad said, when you're on vacation and you've got the money, you can either drive yourself crazy thinking about how much it is or must have a good time and kind of laugh about it.