Percentage Going to Rental Houses?

[Tom Lowe]

I'm curious how many REDs are going to get to rental houses in LA out of the original 2000 or so orders? My guess is that demand is going to absolutely go through the roof once this thing hits the streets. If enough units are not shipped to these rental houses, could we be looking at serious backlogs for rental dates?

Also, what percentage of REDs shipping to rental houses will have data ports? I think a lot of people will be interested in renting REDs with data ports so they can overcrank 4K footage. These same people would probably not be interested in paying for a data port on their own RED.

Even ballpark numbers would be great.

[Eric MacIver]

We'll be getting some units in starting with the Sept. 10 ship date and we anticipate having a few data ports available. We're accepting reservations now based on anticipated availability.

[Tom Lowe]

How many do you have on order, my friend?

[Curran Giddens]

Red #561 will be available for rent with the data port option installed. However, I won't have a DDR capable of recording from the data port. I'm also on the east coast....

I created a poll a while ago to see how many people will be getting the data port installed.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2352

[Jeff Brue]

We're currently the only Rental house on the west coast (as far as I know) with an existing inventory of DDR's and a post pipeline for dealing with that kind of workflow. Stwo has been pretty diligent about adapting their gear for new cameras. It's just a matter of red actually handing one over for that configuration to be done. Part of the reason why everyone in the camera market out here is a bit skeptical is that we finally just got ramping on d-cinema cameras, and going Red 4k in redcode raw kills that, which means a tethered DDR for getting anything over 30.

I really see the market heading towards three cameras the Red, the F23, and The Phantom. For indies, workflow switchable production, and features I can see the red. For commercial shoots involving ramping, ramped playback, on set client monitoring (with no potential moire issues from realtime debayer) I can see the F23. Lastly for anything over 60 fps you might as well get a phantom which will let you use 35mm optics all the way up its frame rate chart instead of capping out.

Jeff Brue
Post Production Supervisor
Digital Film Company/The Camera House

[Emmanuel Cambier]

Come on Jim

Bring on that 4K Redcode @ 120fps !

Well… just that you know what's on my wishlist.

Emmanuel

[Tom Lowe]

Come on Jim

Bring on that 4K Redcode @ 120fps !

Well… just that you know what's on my wishlist.

Emmanuel

60 would do. :biggrin:

[David Mullen ASC]

I think almost all the camera rental houses are ordering some -- rumor has it that Clairmont will get 10 and Sim Video will get 20 or so, and I'm sure everyone else will also. They don't really need to be the first to get them either, in fact, they might prefer not to, let other people work out the bugs. Doesn't really matter if they don't get the first few months of rental business for the RED cameras.

[Michael Schrengohst]

How can those companies get more than 5 RED's?

[Scott Webster]

How can those companies get more than 5 RED's?

Reservations were done on an individual basis not company. I would imagine it would of been as simple as getting 5 employees to reserve 5 cameras each.

I would think that what is more than likely is they upped there initial order after NAB 07(I can't remember whether the 5 limit still applied)

[donatello b]

i've been checking at a few LA rental houses about only renting prime & zoom lens ... each said that their listed rental prices are based on renting a "system/package" ...
one house said without renting a "camera body" to add on $50 per day for each item !! .... anybody else finding the same results ??

[Finner]

I know a few contacts that I have with Panavision told me that panavisions plan was to not rent any lenses to red camera owners because they wanted their lenses to go out with their cameras. Thing is its just a bussiness and if panavision won't rent lenses to you someone else will, it just makes sense because they don't want their equipment on the shelf and a set of rented lenses is better then a dusty camera and lense set on the shelf. I think panavision will change their outlook over time. The thing that was the strangest to me about panavision making that kind of plan is that they are much more of a lense company then they are a camera body company. Panavision has been buying more and more ARRI cameras and making fewer panavision cameras for a while now so it seems strange to me that they would not see red as a good chance to rent their lenses out.

I do not see a lot of red owners getting that good of a deal from rental houses at first. Overall I think back lash to red from rental houses will be there at first and lenses may be expensive and hard to rent. I see this just causing red owners to buy their own lenses or find a different or new rental house that will rent them lenses. Pretty soon the established rental houses will see that they are only cutting their own throats by taking an anti red stance. I see it being quite interesting as it all plays out.

[David Mullen ASC]

I don't think it's a backlash against RED -- they don't know what PL-mount camera you are renting the lenses for unless you tell them. You could have your own Arri for all they know. There's no way they can target RED business. They simply would rather rent a larger package than a small piecemeal package because it's more money coming in. Just like how they cut deals when you rent a package for a longer period. Their worst nightmare is someone renting a few small items for very short periods.

As for Panavision, Panavision lenses have Panavision lens mounts for Panavision cameras (and converted Arris), and not many people own a camera with a Panavision lens mount. So there has never been much of a business of just renting Panavision lenses out to people separate from their cameras -- generally people own PL-mount cameras and rent from places that rent PL-mount cameras.

[Finner]

I don't think it's a backlash against RED -- they don't know what PL-mount camera you are renting the lenses for unless you tell them. You could have your own Arri for all they know. There's no way they can target RED business. They simply would rather rent a larger package than a small piecemeal package because it's more money coming in. Just like how they cut deals when you rent a package for a longer period. Their worst nightmare is someone renting a few small items for very short periods.

All the rental houses I have worked with before have a pretty close relationship with the people they are renting to and know what kind of camera they are using. Also if you want to have your AC prep the package (IMO it would be crazy not to prep a package) the AC is going to have to bring in the camera body to one of the test lanes. Sure you can lie to the rental company or try and lead them to believe that you are shooting with a camera other then red. In not a long period of time though the rental house will hear from others that you are using a red. This is a small industry and word gets around quick. I would not recomend anyone try and decieve a rental house this way as a good relationship with them is what gets you their newer better gear at good price and if they feel that you have decieved them that will change real fast.

Also my contacts at Panavision that I heard this from are not people who clean the cases they are key heads.


As for Panavision, Panavision lenses have Panavision lens mounts for Panavision cameras (and converted Arris), and not many people own a camera with a Panavision lens mount. So there has never been much of a business of just renting Panavision lenses out to people separate from their cameras -- generally people own PL-mount cameras and rent from places that rent PL-mount cameras.

Lenses at panavision use to have only pana mounts quite a while ago but that has changed. They have full sets of ziess, cookes and even some pana lenses with PL mounts. I just got done useing a set of their cooke s4's with PL mounts.

[David Mullen ASC]

You're accusing rental houses of planning on charging a RED owner more to rent a lens from them than they would charge an owner of a Moviecam Compact or Arri-SR3 or Arri-435? You really think they would target their customers like that and punish those who bought a RED instead of some other PL-mount camera? Why? They are losing just as much money from the person who bought their own film camera rather than a RED camera.

[Alex Wengert]

You're accusing rental houses of planning on charging a RED owner more to rent a lens from them than they would charge an owner of a Moviecam Compact or Arri-SR3 or Arri-435? You really think they would target their customers like that and punish those who bought a RED instead of some other PL-mount camera? Why? They are losing just as much money from the person who bought their own film camera rather than a RED camera.
Absolutely correct David.

[Finner]

Exactly David and that is the thing I just don't quite understand. From what I can tell there are a lot of rental houses with a ton of $$$$$ tied up in very expensive cameras that really don't like the idea of a $17,500 camera being as good or maybe even better then their really expensive ones. Just think how much panavision has wraped up in the genisis camera, I know sony did not build it cheaply for them.

I don't see all rental houses being this way but they definately have their backs up when it comes to red and I really think in the begining some people will be running into a few walls when trying to rent camera lenses and support gear. With the large # of red bodies going out and if the camera is as good as it looks it will be an anti red attitude by rental houses will have to change or they will lose huge amounts of bussiness. Don't kid yourself though there are a lot of key rental houses not real happy about this camera.

[Craig Schober]

In not a long period of time though the rental house will hear from others that you are using a red. This is a small industry and word gets around quick. I would not recomend anyone try and decieve a rental house this way as a good relationship with them is what gets you their newer better gear at good price and if they feel that you have decieved them that will change real fast.

it works the other way too. why would a red owner or anyone else want to do business with a rental company that gouges red owners? as soon as they quote one red owner a higher price for the same item, it will spread all over and the red owners go elsewhere. who cares about maintaining a relationship with a rental house that's dishonest and does bad business?

[Finner]

I don't really think they are dishonest or do bad bussiness. Everyone in every industry has a different price for thier work. What price a friend of mine that is a plumber will quote me on some work will be cheaper then what he will quote for the same job to someone he does not know. Panavision is one of the best camera rental companies I have dealt with. They just have a lot of money tied up in cameras and do not want all their lenses going out on red jobs and their cameras collecting dust. Like I said I think things will change but change always has a few growing pains and it will be interesting to see where irt all goes.

[Eric MacIver]

Just a note to say that we don't plan on gouging Red owners. On the contrary, we plan on making a viable business out of renting lenses and accessories for Red cameras. The only issue at the beginning may be having enough supply to meet the demand, but time will tell how that goes.

[donatello b]

i think it just comes down to - rental houses have X number of lens .. if they rent them out solo ( no package) there could be a slight chance they get a large order for a system and they are short on lens ( depends on size of rental house) ??

also i would say it depends on how much you do business with that rental house ... i think if you know them and have done business in the past they will work with you ....

[Matt Uhry]

There are likely WGA and SAG strikes starting Oct this year and even if they work things out, there has been a glut of production anticipating the strike and there is gonna be some kind of an industry famine ahead.

Basically rental houses in LA and NY will be probably be hungry this winter and next spring.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Steven Parker]

There's are likely WGA and SAG strikes starting Oct this year and even if they work things out, there has been a glut of production anticipating the strike and there is gonna be some kind of an industry famine ahead.

Basically rental houses in LA and NY will be probably be hungry this winter and next spring.

Man, I hate the sound of that. Here's hoping the Producer's Guild plays nice - and WGA and SAG too.

[M Most]

There are likely WGA and SAG strikes starting Oct this year

First, although the outlook for an early settlement with the Writers Guild is rather bleak, a strike is not a foregone conclusion.

Second, SAG's contract is not up until June of 2008, which is about when the DGA contract also expires. It is only the WGA's contract that expires this year. In past negotiations, it has not been uncommon for the first negotiating guild to accept a contract extension so that the contract expiration coincides with the other two of the "big three", i.e., the DGA, SAG, and the WGA. That could happen this time, too. There are very big numbers at stake, and the guilds are now finding themselves across the table from huge international conglomerates with very, very deep pockets, little emotional attachment to the entertainment businesses they own, and no love for the current residuals system, or organized labor in general. It could be settled sensibly, or it could get pretty ugly.

[Mark L. Pederson]

pretty ugly is a safe bet.

strike fear always gets more projects greenlit.

i am willing to bet this winter and next spring will be record breaking.