Uk Rental House - Red Camera

[Adam Levins]

Is there a UK rental house who is planing on getting the Red Camera this year?

If yes, and you are reading this could you please send me your info.

Many Thanks

[Adam Jeal]

We are a production company who also specialise in post production consultancy. We will be hiring out our red cameras with a Digital Imaging Technician and a Data Backup Technician.

You can PM me with any questions

[Stephen Williams]

We are a production company who also specialise in post production consultancy. We will be hiring out our red cameras with a Digital Imaging Technician and a Data Backup Technician.

You can PM me with any questions

Hi,

2 extra people, is that really necessary?

Stephen

[Adam Jeal]

Yes. Think of the DIT as a combo camera assistant/tech support. The data backup guy will be creating clones of the raw media onto a G-Raid 2 as well as onto LTO 3 tapes - Backup and verification of the integrity of the data is vital - also its better to know if there is a problem with files when you are onset rather than later.

Hope this helps.

[Stephen Williams]

Yes. Think of the DIT as a combo camera assistant/tech support. The data backup guy will be creating clones of the raw media onto a G-Raid 2 as well as onto LTO 3 tapes - Backup and verification of the integrity of the data is vital - also its better to know if there is a problem with files when you are onset rather than later.

Hope this helps.

Hi,

I was on the set of a fairly high (by UK Standards) budget film and the DIT carried out both roles.

Stephen

[Johnny Johnson]

Now the camera are filtering over here, I was just wondering how people were doing with their DIT's. We wont be forcing any DIT onto a rental when we get ours but it would be interesting to find out if line-producers and prod. managers are willing to shell out for them and at what rates.

contact@cameraspeed.co.uk
www.cameraspeed.co.uk

[Adam Jeal]

Hi,

I was on the set of a fairly high (by UK Standards) budget film and the DIT carried out both roles.

Stephen

I'm revisiting this thread after a long time..

It's an 'apples and oranges' situation. On a lot of shoots there will be only one DIT. On other shoots that are more complicated, it may not serve the production well to be making multiple back-ups of footage as you carry out other duties. The potential for mistakes could be huge. Depends on the logistics of the shoot and what (if any) challenges occur that demand the DIT's full attention.

Of course, you can spend time after the shoot making multiple back-ups - but this is very time consuming. You have to take into consideration how many backups a particular production will require.

It all boils down to prefered workflow & since I wrote the original post, there have been many different aproaches to this. I know for one example that both Tonaci and Blair have performed DIT duties on the same projects.

When we recieve our cameras and begin shooting, we will have a much better idea on what works for us and our clients.

adam

[Simon Blackledge]

I'd like to know what the two roles are exactly..

dit does?? checks for ? dead pixels? Or someone that knows the camera and menus? Isn't that a cam assist job? DOP if he owns the camera?


back up.. pretty clear.. not that hard as long as IT savvy.

I think these will have to be fluid job to job.. therefor not exactly secure jobs that are always required on shoots.

S


s

[Adam Jeal]

Now the camera are filtering over here, I was just wondering how people were doing with their DIT's. We wont be forcing any DIT onto a rental when we get ours but it would be interesting to find out if line-producers and prod. managers are willing to shell out for them and at what rates.

contact@cameraspeed.co.uk
www.cameraspeed.co.uk

This post concerns me. Correct workflow practices are ridiculously important! - It is the job of people who are offering Red cameras to to everything in their power to ensure that the entire process is as pain-free as possible for producers.

With Red you essentially have a computer with a lens on the front. When the 'shit hits the fan' on a shoot - It is your company that is going to be held responsible if the issues can't be fixed professionally and as soon as possible.

If you do not supply a DIT, you need to make sure that the production company employ their own one.

I checked out the rate card on your site. £300 per pay/£1,200 per week for the following:

RedOne Body Including Compact FlashModule,
Red EVF,
Red 5.6” HD LCD Monitor,
Batteries and Chargers, Red Production
Package

This strikes me as way too low even taking into account the extra kit required :umm:

Another point; you are offering Lacie drives as a storage option. These are notoriously prone to failiure.

[Johnny Johnson]

Hi Adam,
Thanks for your input. We haven't completely settled on those rates but they are what we thought would be a fair assumption. I know of at least one other company (admittedly they do mostly sound but are moving into cameras) who are thinking hiring at even lower rates! It is a very competetive marketplace after all.

I don't think its fair to assume prod companies will hire a DIT. In fact I'd be very very surprised if a camera trainee doesn't get lumped with the role on most tv dramas, or an extra cam trainee is hired specifically to do the job to keep costs down... not saying its right, just saying how it is. I used to be a cam assist myself, the trainees do all the playback on things like spooks, a job that used to be completely separate.

However, for every production manager who comes to us and asks how necessary DIT's are, we shall be telling them they will need someone to watch the backup process. It all comes down to budgets as I'm sure you're aware.

As for the Lacie, as has been said, post workflow isn't entirely worked out yet and these were there purely as a backup. We shall be encouraging productions to buy their own storage media for a job just as they would tape and film stock. Which drives are you planning to use?

[Adam Jeal]

Hi Adam,
Thanks for your input. We haven't completely settled on those rates but they are what we thought would be a fair assumption. I know of at least one other company (admittedly they do mostly sound but are moving into cameras) who are thinking hiring at even lower rates! It is a very competetive marketplace after all.

I don't think its fair to assume prod companies will hire a DIT. In fact I'd be very very surprised if a camera trainee doesn't get lumped with the role on most tv dramas, or an extra cam trainee is hired specifically to do the job to keep costs down... not saying its right, just saying how it is. I used to be a cam assist myself, the trainees do all the playback on things like spooks, a job that used to be completely separate.

However, for every production manager who comes to us and asks how necessary DIT's are, we shall be telling them they will need someone to watch the backup process. It all comes down to budgets as I'm sure you're aware.

As for the Lacie, as has been said, post workflow isn't entirely worked out yet and these were there purely as a backup. We shall be encouraging productions to buy their own storage media for a job just as they would tape and film stock. Which drives are you planning to use?

I think that very low rates from the beginning ultimately damage us all as it prematurely drives prices down accross the board. We are investing £100k + into our Red and Scratch kit because we intend to offer the best possible service that we can.

Really, I can't emphasise it enough - in no way does this camera compare to a film or HD camera in terms of workflow. I hear what you say about producers (i am one! ) and rates, but you need to define your working practices and educate your clients as to why for instance; you hire kit out with a DIT. Don't wait for producers or your fears of what they will or will not go for define your business. Its all about how you approach it. People can get kit from any number of places, but its not just about the kit, it's service that really counts. You won't nescessarily alienate your customers. I think you'll find plenty of people who'll appriciate this way of doing things.

Setting prices this low does none of us any favours. Search out OffHollywood's postings regarding this. I think that Mark is correct. At the moment the cameras should price out at roughly 35mm rates. They can always go down from there, and they will - Maybe faster than some of us would like :).

IMO to pitch this camera to clients as anything less than Digital S35mm without stock, processing & telecine costs is to undervalue it. The fact that the body costs $17,500 is irrelevant. Offering a good service to clients, in the hope that they will come back to you costs a lot more both in time and money.

For drives, I recommend the G-tech G raid minis - bus powered (essential in the field) and just as importantly - rock solid! - You wont regret buying them. Stay well clear of Lacie drives - they die at an alarming rate. I'll never use these P.O.S drives again and neither will several different friends of mine.

Anyway, I don't mean to get on your case :) and I really wish you all the best with your business!

regards,

adam

[Adam Jeal]

Oh, and trusting a camera trainee (or even worse, a runner) with verifying the integrity of files and safely backing everything up is a disaster waiting to happen! - i'd never suggest this! (but i'm damn sure some 'producers' would) :wacko:

[Patric Ralston]

I would have to agree with Adam at Random Factor re pricing. I would recommend setting them at 35mm prices for hire as well ~ you are already saving production all stock, developing and telecine costs. 2 rolls of 400ft
35mm film stock cost more than your daily hire! By choosing RED producers are already saving. If productions can't afford RED there is always an alternative available~ e.g the Mini35 adaptor .

What happens when you have to sub rent a spare body and it costs more than your daily rate? If you feel you want to discount on a job by job basis that is a different matter, but no matter what your book rate is producers will still want a deal. If you have already given your margin away you have nowhere to go.

I have 9+ years experience in a UK rental house environment and have watched many companies go under due to setting their rates too low. Please concentrate on adding value by providing a top service, that way everybody benefits.

[Johnny Johnson]

Nothings taken personally. Everyone tries to make it in business differently, just like every DP, and each of their accompanying trainees fighting to climb to the top of the camera team tree, even if it does mean replaying a shot while mixing those teas while loading up redcine across the room!:)

I had looked at the mini-raids after they were mentioned earlier on the boards. In my fantasy world prod companies who don't want to bother with on set DIT duties will just buy cf cards as if they were rolls of 35mm (As soon as they come down in price they should be equal) and it will make life much easier explaining things to p.managers and line-producers trying to cut corners everywhere.

[Lachlan Ward]

Correct workflow practices are ridiculously important! - It is the job of people who are offering Red cameras to to everything in their power to ensure that the entire process is as pain-free as possible for producers.


This is really important not just for your own business, but the life of Red One in general.
I know some producers that shot with the Viper and had a lot of trouble getting it Graded well and out through the post pipe line. My advice to those hiring Reds is that you should contact all the Post houses in your area to find out who offers what and who is up to date with the Red. In my experience not many post houses know much about it, I've had some people say plainly "whats Red One". Do some investigating and see who's got what and who can handle it. Tell the post guys what your doing as well, the may be nicer to you if your referring them jobs. Or you can sort out a post solution yourself, however from what I've been looking you will pay a lot more for an R3D centric work flow than you ever will for a Red One.

Sorry for sounding like a whinny old bat:sorcerer:

[Adam Jeal]

I would have to agree with Adam at Random Factor re pricing. I would recommend setting them at 35mm prices for hire as well ~ you are already saving production all stock, developing and telecine costs. 2 rolls of 400ft
35mm film stock cost more than your daily hire! By choosing RED producers are already saving. If productions can't afford RED there is always an alternative available~ e.g the Mini35 adaptor .

What happens when you have to sub rent a spare body and it costs more than your daily rate? If you feel you want to discount on a job by job basis that is a different matter, but no matter what your book rate is producers will still want a deal. If you have already given your margin away you have nowhere to go.

Bingo!

[Johnny Johnson]

I believe Axis Post are pretty set up on the whole debayered red delivery with their quantel. Can't say if they're the best with red yet. I guess time will tell who is, but they're always nice folks to deal with.

[Blue]

I dont know if this has already been discussed, but why doesn't RED make contractual agreements with it's customers so that there are minimum rates for hiring out the equipment? If customers breach the terms renting out at silly prices they risk losing support on their camera's. Nice and easy. The only people who would piss n moan about a system like this would be those who don't care about making a buck and/or protecting the industry. I'm talking purely about the equipment here obviously. What rental businesses charge for supplied man hours in whatever capacity is up to them. I for one would have no problem renting under such terms as either a renter or a rentee.

[Adam Jeal]

This is really important not just for your own business, but the life of Red One in general.
I know some producers that shot with the Viper and had a lot of trouble getting it Graded well and out through the post pipe line. My advice to those hiring Reds is that you should contact all the Post houses in your area to find out who offers what and who is up to date with the Red. In my experience not many post houses know much about it, I've had some people say plainly "whats Red One". Do some investigating and see who's got what and who can handle it. Tell the post guys what your doing as well, the may be nicer to you if your referring them jobs. Or you can sort out a post solution yourself, however from what I've been looking you will pay a lot more for an R3D centric work flow than you ever will for a Red One.

Sorry for sounding like a whinny old bat:sorcerer:

You are right on the money Lachlan :ninja:

Although I come from a directing & production background, for the past seven years i've almost exclusively been in post, first as an Avid editor then for the last five years as a workflow consulant/systems intergrator.

From my experience in the Soho post community, there are still plenty of niggles regarding HD workflows that are causing problems for facilities even now, when HD is considered a 'mature' technology.

A producer I know who is considering Red said to me that he is worried about using the workflow & he feels much safer using a sony HDW-750 as he thinks the HD pipline is solid. It just ain't. I managed to talk him round easily enough :biggrin:

[Bing Bailey]

I believe they call that milking clients for all you can get. the RED One isn't the f950 and you can't justify charging anyone like it is or forcing them to take 2 people where the job is really one person with some RED know how and some common sense.

backing up folders to an LTO and a backup harddrive isn't rocket science. as for investing 100,000 pounds unless your including scratch post in that rate then your actual outlay for the RED and Accessories is more like 15,000 pounds. that two to one dollar to pound rate sure is great even with the 17% vat rate.

even a decent 35mm rig costs 4 times more than a red cam. obviously the revolution red started didn't quite make it past you guys. this was supposed to throw things open to the indie world not give some people an opportunity to milk producers with less experience

[Simon Blackledge]

I agree on the fact of cost savings.. but there is still no fluid workfow. everything at some point needs rendering out. And at most post houses.. that costs..

[Patric Ralston]

Hmmmm pricefixing? :shiftyph34r: You've got to fix a price that means your business survives:biggrin: and that keeps your customers coming back.

I'll tell you a funny but true story. A line producer once awarded me the contract for a TV drama because a big competiter rental company quoted way too low!! You gotta ask why they felt they needed to do it:wacko:

Anyways, I was more expensive and shouldn't have got the job based on price but the line producer said a funny thing when I asked him why he didn't go with the lower quote. "It was too low. I didn't see how they could look after our production at that rate..."

Lowest is not always best.

[Adam Jeal]

I believe they call that milking clients for all you can get. the RED One isn't the f950 and you can't justify charging anyone like it is or forcing them to take 2 people where the job is really one person with some RED know how and some common sense.

backing up folders to an LTO and a backup harddrive isn't rocket science. as for investing 100,000 pounds unless your including scratch post in that rate then your actual outlay for the RED and Accessories is more like 15,000 pounds. that two to one dollar to pound rate sure is great even with the 17% vat rate.

even a decent 35mm rig costs 4 times more than a red cam. obviously the revolution red started didn't quite make it past you guys. this was supposed to throw things open to the indie world not give some people an opportunity to milk producers with less experience

Utter Bulls**t! - please check your facts before you go throwing stuff like this around! It all depends on HOW you kit you red out - I suppose Zeiss primes, decent grip kit & Arri matteboxes & follow-focus can be had at currys for spit? The Scratch is included in this. Did I say that backing stuff up is rocket science? no - but it is very important to get right and it IS time consuming. £15,000 for camera stuff - who says! this may suit some, but certainly not our clients. We are getting one full cinema style package with a second body along with a full Scratch system with tangent panels, cinespace, eizo monitors & an 8TB raid, a Fully kitted out Mac Pro with 8TB Raid plus much more..

[Adam Jeal]

The red is most certainly not the f950 and for that you should be glad!

[Patric Ralston]

I believe they call that milking clients for all you can get. the RED One isn't the f950 and you can't justify charging anyone like it is or forcing them to take 2 people where the job is really one person with some RED know how and some common sense.

backing up folders to an LTO and a backup harddrive isn't rocket science. as for investing 100,000 pounds unless your including scratch post in that rate then your actual outlay for the RED and Accessories is more like 15,000 pounds. that two to one dollar to pound rate sure is great even with the 17% vat rate.

even a decent 35mm rig costs 4 times more than a red cam. obviously the revolution red started didn't quite make it past you guys. this was supposed to throw things open to the indie world not give some people an opportunity to milk producers with less experience


Sorry but you are way off base dude. I'm not talking milking anyone. I plan to build a long term sustainable business with clients that I already have a relationship with and with new ones I want to attract. You can't do that by ripping people off. The UK rental market currently has to give 75 - 85% discount off book rates to even be considered competitive for features/dramas. We are subsidising the film industry with kit over here. It is certainly not quick or easy money.
It would be nice to claw some margin back from the cost savings that the RED camera offers Producers and still make it much cheaper for them!

[Bing Bailey]

Doesnt take much to wind you guys up :) LOL call it irish humour

[Adam Jeal]

Doesnt take much to wind you guys up :) LOL call it irish humour


Not laughing! - your comments expose your lack of understanding and do nothing to help those of us who have been eating, sleeping and breathing filmmaking for years (18 in my case). I care very deeply about quality of service and I damn well resent being told that I am ripping people off!

[Bing Bailey]

get a sense of humour. I've been a film maker for 10 and an engineer for 15. I've no lack of understanding. I thought the brits had acquired a sense of humour. guess not

[Adam Jeal]

grow up & STFU! Idiot.

[Simon Blackledge]

calm down guys... c'mon. please.

[Adam Jeal]

calm down guys... c'mon. please.

Sorry Simon,

He just hit a nerve.

[Bing Bailey]

No hard feelings !

[Adam Jeal]

Ok! it's forgotten. :calm:

[Simon Blackledge]

Now kiss and make up! Ok maybe that's pushing it to far ! LOl

[Adam Jeal]

Now kiss and make up! Ok maybe that's pushing it to far ! LOl

:biggrin:

[David Wyatt]

AAAaaaanyway...to answer the original question (wasn't that a long time ago?) ICE Film, based in King's Cross London, will be hiring out a Red camera (number 247) in conjunction with 4KLondon who can handle the post workflow right through to film prints if needed:
http://www.4klondon.com/
ICE are great guys with some good kit (Cooke S4s, Zeiss UltraPrimes etc) and have lots of experience supplying kit to feature films & tv dramas.

By the way, Adam - your name rings a bell, I'm sure we've spoken before...will come to me sooner or later...

All the best,

David Wyatt.
http://www.4klondon.com/

[Michael Lindsay]

Hi

I suspect apart from a few early 'peachy' hires silly money will not be paid for bare Red kits.. It is after all nearly free in film terms.

I'm interested in this thread because I'm London based and I have two cameras coming. These cameras will not be sloshing around in the ultra competitive rental market but mainly serving jobs which already exists (my bread and butter). However it is still better for me if Red stays above 2% DROI as long as possible. It is after all a precarious world and I like fast returns.

I know of a couple of very experienced lighting cameramen who will offer Red at prices I'm not even going to put in this thread for fear of causing crazy posting.

I suspect Dave's camera will return its money fast but those of us without our cameras in the next month or 2 will have to accept the normal market pricing rules that this industry runs with... Shortly there will be more Reds than F900 and they are not hard to hire..

regards

Michael

[David Collard]

Don't waste your breathe, mate. Any person who quotes 15,000 pounds for Red and accessories is totally out to lunch. Particularly if you're shooting cinema style and everything a kit like that requires. Also, who cares if you "overcharge" for a digital back-up person. It is very important. Who gives a fuck what that guy thinks. The other day I went to see a physical therapist about my elbow. She gave me an elastic band to stretch with, told me to ice my elbow at night - all in a 15 minute session with copious notes like she was prepping me for brain surgury. The bill.?...$100.

[Fredrik Callinggard]

I believe they call that milking clients for all you can get. the RED One isn't the f950 and you can't justify charging anyone like it is or forcing them to take 2 people where the job is really one person with some RED know how and some common sense.

backing up folders to an LTO and a backup harddrive isn't rocket science. as for investing 100,000 pounds unless your including scratch post in that rate then your actual outlay for the RED and Accessories is more like 15,000 pounds. that two to one dollar to pound rate sure is great even with the 17% vat rate.

even a decent 35mm rig costs 4 times more than a red cam. obviously the revolution red started didn't quite make it past you guys. this was supposed to throw things open to the indie world not give some people an opportunity to milk producers with less experience

Sorry I read the post as accessories alone would be £15.000 not including RED, so ignore my 'Well spoken!' remark if you read that before I edited this post.

You guys have to understand that the actual rental price of gear is based on a percentage of it's actual cost. Most gear is rented out for 1-2 % of purchase price. So if you've spent $40000 on your camera gear you should essentially charge $400-$800/ day for it.

Sorry if that's letting you down but that's the hard fact. It will only pay itself off after about 2 years.

An ARRI 435 package is about £280/day list price (that's a camera that costs 5 times more).

A friend of mine pointed something out. The possibility of RED loosing it's value quick is quite possible (unless it's upgraded to new better sensors). So the shelf life is shorter and therefor a higher rental percentage. He calculates for around 3.5% for the RED camera only, which makes sense, I think.


fred

[Blue]

Blah, blah, blah...

RED, please could you fix the price and stop these guys bickering. 1.5% of cost would be fine.

Cheers.

[Bing Bailey]

Don't waste your breathe, mate. Any person who quotes 15,000 pounds for Red and accessories is totally out to lunch. Particularly if you're shooting cinema style and everything a kit like that requires. Also, who cares if you "overcharge" for a digital back-up person. It is very important. Who gives a fuck what that guy thinks. The other day I went to see a physical therapist about my elbow. She gave me an elastic band to stretch with, told me to ice my elbow at night - all in a 15 minute session with copious notes like she was prepping me for brain surgury. The bill.?...$100.

Actually 15,000 pounds being about 30,000 dollars would get you a fairly decent RED Rig, maybe a RED Zoom too , not zeiss or cooke s4's but definitely something very very useable on cine or broadcast productions

[Costelloe Michael]

Guys,

People will try to charge a range of pricing, depending on market, level of kit and their own perception of what it is worth. The acid test comes with what others are actually willing to pay!

My personal perception is that we have a 'relatively' untested product but with a huge amount of interest due to the ground breaking nature of the product at the price point. I don't feel the market will be able to sustain 35mm kit level pricing, but at the moment anyone with a camera is in a good position to charge a premium.

What people seem to be doing is charging for everything including all their ancillaries and their staff. I particularly feel this is not going to work. I have great technicians I employ because I trust them, including my own DIT. I also have facilities companies that do me a great deal for a complete grips package, from heads to cranes, and an existing post house relationship built on trust. I can't go against this even for the early adoption of the RED camera and the kudos it would bring and I would not expect others to do so either, if I was renting out my kit. Anyone who is a serious Producer and has therefore got good knowledge of what deals there are to be had, or works/has worked in a facilities house environment will already be aware of all this.

Good luck to those with their cameras already you guys really were in at the sharp end, I hope you do make some serious dosh, there looks like some really cool operations out there. I would love to have access to a post house that can offer Scratch, I may even hire a camera from them but I don't raise the budgets of the jobs I work on and cannot afford to double up on kit and facilities I already have to hire everything from 1 place!

I expect all this will have changed by April/May 2008 anyway :mail1:

Mike Costelloe

[Simon Blackledge]

Oh things are deffo going to change this year :)

[PaulClements]

There are a whole host of items people don't even think of when looking at a Red package and these things add up a lot... trust me!

Collimating your lenses, your mounts, servicing your camera, tripod and ancillary gear, insuring everything, administration costs, offices, personnel, all the little things people don't think of but must have like sensor cleaning equipment or small pelican cases to keep flash cards secure, extra monitoring, reliable and secure backup and archiving, rates, taxes, backup equipment etc etc etc... the list goes on and on.
It's all well and good to look at the camera as being cheap because the body costs $17,500 but if the Red market is to be sustainable people have to realise that with everything that goes with running a business (Especially in the United Kingdom) the prices of the service isn't going to be a couple of hundred pounds per day - NOT if you as a client expect the best.

It's all about balance at the end of the day. The one man band companies looking to service the low budget independent market need the larger companies championing the Red camera to the larger clients because they in turn will receive clients interested in using it because they've seen the results in this feature or that TV programme or advertisement.

Here at Sonic Films we've invested heavily to be able to offer a top quality service. From production, with some of the very best gear to shoot with, through to post with Scratch, FCP, Avid and the necessary hardware that is required. I believe that our prices are very fair considering the service the client will get, the quality of the finished article and the savings they will make shooting Red over 35mm and in some cases HD. I understand and recognise that there will be cheap Red packages out and about in a few months time and I only hope they don't discover there is little chance to grow as a company because they have priced themselves too low. A company must make a profit, if it doesn't you're screwed.

Paul

[Fredrik Callinggard]

I checked out the rate card on your site. £300 per pay/£1,200 per week for the following:

RedOne Body Including Compact FlashModule,
Red EVF,
Red 5.6” HD LCD Monitor,
Batteries and Chargers, Red Production
Package

This strikes me as way too low even taking into account the extra kit required :umm:



There are a whole host of items people don't even think of when looking at a Red package and these things add up a lot... trust me!

Collimating your lenses, your mounts, servicing your camera, tripod and ancillary gear, insuring everything, administration costs, offices, personnel, all the little things people don't think of but must have like sensor cleaning equipment or small pelican cases to keep flash cards secure, extra monitoring, reliable and secure backup and archiving, rates, taxes, backup equipment etc etc etc... the list goes on and on.
It's all well and good to look at the camera as being cheap because the body costs $17,500 but if the Red market is to be sustainable people have to realise that with everything that goes with running a business (Especially in the United Kingdom) the prices of the service isn't going to be a couple of hundred pounds per day - NOT if you as a client expect the best.

Absolutely Paul but I don't think that's the problem here. If you look at the quote above and people thinking that's being selling yourself cheap. That is hardly even a complete RED package and it's already charged more than a 435 ES package LIST PRICE. Of course accessories, monitoring, video playback, computers, tripod and lenses will add up to a higher rental price.
But there are guys out there who doesn't understand the market and will go the wrong way. We can't over price RED cameras, especially when they're not completely finished. We will only give it a bad name.

My RED package will go for around £2000+ if it's complete. That is with RED with base plates, necessary rods, handheld bracket, complete ARRI mattebox system with clip on mattebox adapter, complete FF4 kit, two HD 9" monitors, EFV, 1. 26" HD Broadcast LCD, 1-2 client monitors 23", a complete primes set of 12 prime lenses, a lightweight zoom, ProRes video playback and complete backup system on a RAID and LTO tapes. Batteries and chargers.

BUT I would never charge £300 for a RED camera, EFV, batteries, chargers and CF card module. That is a complete rip off.

Now I don't see it to be necessary (after a while) to send out a technician unless it's for the video playback/ backup system. In the beginning yes but after a while NO. If I did a HD shoot today I wouldn't need a technician (only on D20 and Genesis and hardly even that) my assistants handles that without any problems.

Fred

[Simon Blackledge]

I don't understand why £300 for just basic kit no lenses etc.. is a rip off. Not being funny.. just don't understand that bit as it seems pretty much a decent split of the £2000 considering all the other gear in a "complete" setup.

Also are we talking gear or people.. 2 totally different things. Gear is gear.. it has a cost. People on the other hand, you pay more dependent on talent no ?
. I don't see how you can group the 2 together unless you have a really good reputation. Something that will take time due to Red being so new.

[PaulClements]

Fred,

I agree with Flameop, £300 for a basic kit isn't that much of a rip off, not when you consider the overheads of running a business. For a £13,000 investment there are plenty of other walks of life where the return would be far greater. Even at 1.5% it'd be around the £200 a mark per day for such a setup. His mark-up is around 2.3% of the value of the kit - That's not unreasonable, after all HVX's and other cameras are going for more and they're not in the same league. At that rate he'll have to hire it out for about 50 days worth of business before he turns a profit. As a startup that's possibly six months before you start to see a profit, and then with the overheads of actually running a business the likelihood is that by the end of the year you might have broken even or made some profit and own your own equipment - Where's the room to grow the business without taking out massive loans? And you're suggesting those rates should be even lower? That being said I dare say we'll see figures lower than that by the end of the year. The defining point will be the quality of service, accessories, post production and reliability of the company(ies) people choose.

Paul

[Patric Ralston]

[QUOTE=weirdcrew;135010]An ARRI 435 package is about £280/day list price (that's a camera that costs 5 times more).

Actually, the list price of a 435 camera kit from all the main rental companies in the UK is £750 per day (including 3 x 400ft magazines, an FF3 Follow Focus and MB16 Mattebox)
An IVS Video assist for the camera is £250 per day. What differs is the amount of discount given. More discount for pop promos and features, less for commercials.

As with all things there will be a difference in pricing between suppliers but I think it will depend on what level of client and expectation you pitch your business at.
Will I offer a special rate to students? ~ Sure. Can I afford to give everyone the same student rate ~ not if I want to stay in business (unless of course a producer wants to offer me points on their film so I can share in their profits as a thankyou for helping them to get it made in the first place :biggrin: BUT I haven't met too many producers keen on this option. Why, because they also want to make a PROFIT.

I hope this doesn't sound too funny but I guess I am hoping that people remember it is called the Film BUSINESS. I wish everyone the best in building theirs.

[Fredrik Callinggard]

Hi Guys,

To start with I'd like to say that saying "rip off" is a little harsh. As for FAVAMAN yes it's around £750 incl mattebox, FF4 etc. I was not comparing it in that way I was comparing it as an 435 package (that means the 435 with video assist, bridge plate, long eye piece and magazines only). That is around £280/day. Reason me not including the mattebox etc was to have it equivalent to the RED package offered for £300. As for video assist, are you talking actual camera video assist? Because the video assist on a 435 is integrated, it's standard kit. Are you sure your not talking about video assist as in either video playback option or an actual video assist operator?

As for you Paul I hear what your saying and I agree to the degree that a RED camera should be priced around £200 maximum £250/day for RED kit only, no accessories. NOW read this as the kit only. That means RED, EFV, monitor, batteries, chargers, handheld bracket kit and the plates +rods. This is the kit that would compete against a PRO camera kit in the same configuration.

I come from a 100% cine background and I don't really have any experience with HD/Digital. I've only shot HD once and that was with SONY-F950 but I've shot 35mm a million times. I can only draw from my experience and my producer says that he would be willing to shot RED if it was priced between the IMX, Pro 35 world and 35mm. An IMX kit with HIGH END mattebox, follow focus + around 6 prime lenses (Ultra or COOKE S4) and monitors is priced on around £850/day. A 435 camera kit with same configuration (mattebox, FF4, primes etc) goes for around £1400/day. He figures that if the RED camera prices itself in between those it will be interesting. So the price is then around £1000-1200 for a RED basic package including 6 primes (Ultra or COOKE S4), ARRI Mattebox (preferably), FF4 (also preferably), EFV and monitor + batteries, chargers, CF cards.
Now that's the camera kit then there's of course client monitors, playback options etc that is outside of that quote, but this is based on accessories well above £50000 in purchase (and that is accessories only, not the RED), so you do the math.
My £2000 price for a RED kit + 12 primes, full ARRI mattebox kit, full FF4 kit etc is extremely competitive. Don't forget that it includes HD broadcast monitors etc. This is gear valued in excess over £200.000, so it's priced on exactly 1% purchase price, if not less. Now the production might not want all of it, of course, they might just want 6 primes or so, but still it's only about 1% in rental price.
All I'm trying to say that, yes now in the beginning you can charge slightly more because the equip is new, but very soon you have to face the fact. The market is not that great and people are not prepared to pay high prices. What do you think happen if you offer a RED camera that has no accessories and the customers has to go to ARRI for rental? Will ARRI be interested? Most probably not. What will happen if you charge higher prices for gear that is 5 times cheaper (possibly also the accessories, if it's the REDROCK mattebox for example) than the gear from the BIG Rental houses?

Rental market in our business is not very lucrative, why do you think so many rental firms are going bust these days?

Fred

[Patric Ralston]

Hi Fred, I would love to know where I can rent a 435 kit for £280 per day especially with an Integrated Video aSsist. I could build a virtual rental company by just sub renting! ;)
I worked for a respected UK rental house for 9 years (left in mid 2007)
The cheapest I have sub rented a 435 BODY ONLY for 1 day (no mags, no video assist, no nothing) is £360. Yes I was referring to the actual camera video assist. While it is integrated it is still a modular option which you can take off if you don't want a video picture for a monitor. The Book rate of an IVS
is £250 per day on a 3 day week. Lets say the cost of the IVS is around £10,000 (it is a little less). If you get the full hire price you get your money back after 40 days. But more likely to be 80 days due to competition discounting and that is for daily commercials. The return is much worse for pop promos and features.

The rental market is definately not very lucrative in the UK.
Price is usually set by demand. Basically there are too many rental companies in the UK (particularly London) all competing for a slice of the same pie. The less slice you get the more desperate you get, the more you drop your prices to survive. This is the reality. Remember VFG? (a lot of good people lost their jobs) I once quoted against VFG for an Arricam LT 3 perf 7? week Drama shoot. They got the job but at what price? I later found out and figured that if they had kept sending their LT out at the same rate as that job it would have taken them 14 years to get their money back!
Traditionally you don't make money from a camera. But you need a camera to hang off all the other stuff (accessories) you make your money from.
OK, with RED there is actually a chance to also make money from the camera as well.
The rental game is about so much more than equipment and I hope everyone intending to dry hire goes into it with their eyes open. Your level of service will make you stand out.

Fred, I must say I am interested to see that your producer would be comfortable with a daily rate RED package pitched around "£1000-1200 for a RED basic package including 6 primes (Ultra or COOKE S4), ARRI Mattebox (preferably), FF4 (also preferably), EFV and monitor + batteries, chargers, CF cards".
as my numbers are coming up pretty similar for the same type of package.

I will be interested to know how you go as I am about 1000 places down the list from you. Good Luck and best wishes.

Patric

[Fredrik Callinggard]

Fred, I must say I am interested to see that your producer would be comfortable with a daily rate RED package pitched around "£1000-1200 for a RED basic package including 6 primes (Ultra or COOKE S4), ARRI Mattebox (preferably), FF4 (also preferably), EFV and monitor + batteries, chargers, CF cards".
as my numbers are coming up pretty similar for the same type of package.


Patric,

I must start with apologizing, yes the video assist is separately priced. As I looked closely I noticed my mistake. The "list" price I'm looking at would be £390 for that package. So your right, but it still it seems cheaper then what your claiming (I'll send you a PM on it since we shouldn't show this in a post)? I'm not trying to be funny here I'm just trying to say that the market I come from (commercials, musicvideo, features and drama) shooting on film, will not be interested in it if it's priced to 35mm prices. Maybe if it's priced to 16mm or just below.
It seems like me and my friends numbers are coming up more or less the same as yours in the END so forgive me my ignorance when it comes to numbers (meaning my £280 quote). I'm just afraid that we'll have guys out there who will be renting out a RED package thinking they'll make a bundle on it. To me the pricing of £250 to maybe £300/day for a decent RED package seems ok. That is though including the Element Technica accessories making it more adjustable to the film gear in my business.
I think the RED is only interesting for the market (were you can make some money) - commercials, if it's priced like that with accessories that we're used to. That means the ARRI gear and the "high end" lenses.
I base my experience on what would make me rent this and what producers would tell me. So we would go to premium rental houses and rent it, were there's technicians that will service it properly before it goes out (did you read at CML about the guy that rented a RED for tests? It died on him and he never got to finish the test and they still charged him for the rental. They were even there to service it).
I think that if your to charge £300/day for the RED it needs to be "geared" up to meet our standards.
That means RED, EFV, 1. Monitor, batteries, chargers, ET's breakout box, their cheese plate, bridge plate/dove tail + maybe their handheld bracket.
Then it's a package for £300, I think.
Now I can be wrong and maybe I'm to cheap, I don't know. My RED is not intended to make money. It's intended to go with me and make my life easy. It will have well over 50 days of rental a year, more 100 as it looks like now. As I said it's to make my life easy, not others. My "full" package is ridiculously cheap because I've made some incredible deals on stuff. You may most probably find it that when it's in a rental house it will go up in list price. Although I do believe that with the market being the way it is, they would end on the same price for it in rental anyway.



fred

[David Wyatt]

I think you have to consider what other video cameras are out there on the rental market. Unless the Red camera shakes up the rental market currently a Sony 750 goes for more than this £300 figure that's being bandied about (yes that comes with a lens but it's pretty dreadful). An HVX with a Movietube is not far off this figure (admittedly without lenses but still!!) At the top end of the HD rental market you've got D20's and F23's at around £1500/day. I think it's less relevant what the Red costs to buy and the whole 1-2% thing, and more about what other similar or inferior cameras cost to hire. Red is a disruptive force in all areas it comes into contact with. We've decided to price the camera right between the lower HD camera market (750's, Varicams, F900s) and the top end (D20's, F23's, Genesis etc - which, strictly speaking, Red is more comparable with). That still compares very favourably with film (the rental figure being bandied around for a 435 seems way cheap in my experience and why are we using a non-sync sound camera as a price comparison anyway?) Not forgetting the whole saving on film stock/processing/telecine-thing Red also even saves you £20 per tape compared to the HDCAM cameras - so really all in all there is no way with current prices in the rental market that you can hire out a vastly superior camera (Red) at the same price as a vastly inferior one (take your pick). Pretty soon we'll all find out what people are prepared to pay but as other people have said already the Red rental price will plummet as more and more of them become available (supply & demand economics).

David Wyatt
http://www.4klondon.com/ (http://www.4klondon.com/)

[Johnny Johnson]

The basis of hire rates we have set which caused this stir are based not on what the camera costs or what it will do but how it compares in cost to other cameras. As David says, HDW-750s are more or less the same price at £300/day with just camera and sometimes lens (not lcd, occasionally not batteries even). Whats the movitube with hvx... £220? something like that anyway for a 1/3 inch camera with only 720p without any lens. It is a difficult one though, which is why so many people have such different opinions on this thread, is it worth hiring at what it cost, worth hiring for what it can do or worth hiring when compared to prices on other cameras. Too early to tell yet.

I think you guys at 4kLondon will be able to get away with charing your £1000/day for only a few months based on the fact most of us are getting our mits on the cam in the next two batches of delivery, but also because ICE have a history of providing equipment which will sit favourably with producers.

I honestly dont think come march/april, £1000/day for body alone on something that cost £8500 is sustainable once the word gets out to producers what it cost. Wouldn't say no though.. 2-4 weeks based on negotiation hire, damn thats pretty much the same as printing money!

Also, why is the 435 the comparison? Why not the LT? thats the most similar equivalent arri cam out there at the moment.


contact@cameraspeed.co.uk
www.cameraspeed.co.uk

[Patric Ralston]

Hi All,
I have no idea as to why a 435 price was chosen as a comparison.
Lets take an ARRICAM LT. Its a sound sync handheld camera. (viewfinder, 3 x mags, FF3 follow focus, MB16 Mattebox. Book rate = £950 per day. LT Integrated Video Assist = £285 per day.
Now forget about the fact that there is a follow focus and matte box included. You aren't going to get a cheaper book rate if you don't take them.
So An Arricam LT kit with an IVS = £1,235 per day.
On a daily rate job if you get a 40% discount it costs £741 per day.
For that you get the capability of 1-40FPS max, and the ability to provide a video picture of the Ground Glass but nothing to view it on.
No onboard monitor (£60)
no playback capability (9" hard disk playback combi £200)
no handhold kit (£85)
no onboard batteries (battery belt £50)
EXTRAS = £395 less 40% = £237
So total = £978 per day after 40% discount

Now lets look at a basic RED Kit . 1-30FPS 4K, 1 -100FPS 2K
CF Module + 3 x 8GB CF Cards INCLUDED
LCD onboard monitor INCLUDED
Playback facility INCLUDED
Handhold Kit INCLUDED
ON Board Batteries INCLUDED

Now lets have a look at that £300 per day again ~ Bargain or undersold?
Tell you what, i'll just add an FF4 follow focus (£50) and LMB5 Clip on Matte Box (£50)
BASIC RED KIT = £400. Hey nice! 4K for £400 ;)

RED is a new way of doing things. Why use the old way of pricing it? Let it sit somewhere between S16 and 35mm. You can then discount it as you want / need to. Producers like to bargain even if your price is rock bottom. If you are too high you can come down. If you start too low it is VERY hard to adjust up.

Believe me I know. I wrote the ICE ratecard and up until July last year ran the rental desk.

[Adam Levins]

AAAaaaanyway...to answer the original question (wasn't that a long time ago?) ICE Film, based in King's Cross London, will be hiring out a Red camera (number 247) in conjunction with 4KLondon who can handle the post workflow right through to film prints if needed:
http://www.4klondon.com/
ICE are great guys with some good kit (Cooke S4s, Zeiss UltraPrimes etc) and have lots of experience supplying kit to feature films & tv dramas.

By the way, Adam - your name rings a bell, I'm sure we've spoken before...will come to me sooner or later...

All the best,

David Wyatt.
http://www.4klondon.com/

Hi David,

Do you know Ben King? I think you and I might have spoke on the phone once about post work-flow.

Cheers,

Adam

[David Wyatt]

Hi David,

Do you know Ben King? I think you and I might have spoke on the phone once about post work-flow.

Cheers,

Adam

Hi Adam,

The name Ben King doesn't ring a bell but I'm sure we've spoken before...about a year ago or so?

All the best,

David.

[David Wyatt]

Believe me I know. I wrote the ICE ratecard and up until July last year ran the rental desk.

Hi Patric,

I thought that was you when you said earlier you'd worked for a reputable rental house for 7 seven years etc (RedUser's a bit like an identity guessing game sometimes!). We're renting our Red camera out through ICE and I was a bit surprised you weren't there anymore last time I popped in. Hope you're well.

All the best,

David.

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Hi Patric,

I thought that was you when you said earlier you'd worked for a reputable rental house for 7 seven years etc (RedUser's a bit like an identity guessing game sometimes!). We're renting our Red camera out through ICE and I was a bit surprised you weren't there anymore last time I popped in. Hope you're well.

All the best,

David.

Well aye.. ICE is a very respected rental house. I think the point with the rate card is that if you hire through ICE then yes of course it's going to be more expensive than hiring through an individual with a RED camera. But then I'm paying ICE to have prepped the camera every time it goes out, to hire me all kinds of other equipment that a bargain basement RED owner will not have, to give me total support if the camera goes bye bye, and to help me with post-production tie ins etc..

You get what you pay for.

[Patric Ralston]

Hi David, Hi Fergus,
Yes I was at ICE for 9 1/2 years and felt I needed a break/change...6 months off has been good! I will be launching something in the near future.

Fergus, I think you've hit the nail on the head. I feel there will be a two-tier level of Kit & Service out there in RED land.
1. The individual owner/operator with a kit tailored to their needs & budget.
Will probably be less actually in the package and will be cheaper to rent.
It will probably work better / more often as a wet hire (i.e comes with owner/operator)
2. A Rental House will more likely offer a Premium RED package with every RED bell and
whistle, as well as bespoke solutions so that users can configure the camera with maximum options available. Support, training and 24/7 backup will be a given. ICE will provide this.
FAVA Rental will also be pitching at a similar level in the near future.

Both packages will look quite different. Individual owner/operators and Rental Houses will offer different levels of practical support, advice, training and access to other kit and services.
Hirers will go with the package and kind of support they expect and that they are comfortable with. Both options are valid. You do pay for what you get.

Patric
FAVA Rental Ltd

[Costelloe Michael]

Patric,

A very good summary of the present situation. If you were at ICE in the past we've probably exchanges calls at some time.

Anyone out there who wants to rent a camera package to me for the end of February for five weeks I'd be more than happy to hear what price point you're at.

I want a Red camera, prime lenses, mattebox and FF, LCS if available and a 17" Panny.

I happen to own my own Astra 3013 and a Marshall and I have a great deal with an industry Grip house who have all the grip I need at a good price. (I will not use any other head but a 2575c). I have a full post/archive solution which enables me to post low budget features up to rough grade and then I will be looking for somewhere with Scratch.

Am I asking to much? Let me know and we'll carry on shooting on HDCam until the market equalises, or I get my own cameras!

BTW Guys, forget about 'list' price for the film cameras anyone who has been in the market will know what the real discounts are, believe me I've been there on both sides of the fence.

Mike Costelloe

BTW my internet is down until Friday. I'm down at Mac's atm, the nearest wireless, please reply to mikec@micos.co.uk and I'll get a copy on my iPhone

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Good luck to you Patric :-)

[Adam Levins]

Hi Adam,

The name Ben King doesn't ring a bell but I'm sure we've spoken before...about a year ago or so?

All the best,

David.

Hi David,

I remember now, I think I was looking to test a RED and called you to that regard. Via your website.

To add to this discussion concerning the different ways the camera will be rented out.

I think you are right about there being the two basic ways to do it:

- Owner/operator

- Rental house.

Rental houses will always have more kit and perhaps be better serviced.

The advantage of the owner/operator route is that they are ready to go at a moments notice on those last minute jobs, that normally come in right before the weekend :-(

[Eren Ozkural]

We all agree that RED is a distruptive force, but I don't think that it will affect the rental houses pricing by a great deal.

Yes the camera body and the assorted RED branded accessories are a bargain, but as mentioned before the good rental houses like ICE, VMI etc. offer so many ancillary services and products that the actual camera body, power supply, media etc. do not hold a monopoly over their rate cards.

The area where RED has the potential to be truly distruptive is the Owner/Operator market. I have a feeling that it will be oversaturated with these amazing cameras which will either lead to alot of failed investments or it will somewhat meritocratize the market and let talent be the leading factor for a D.P/operator's pricing.

Ive been on quite a few low budget shoots where the D.P was hired mainly due to the equipment they owned with little regards to their talent. Sad but true.

[Costelloe Michael]

The market will be redefined by this camera, the rental market, i.e. facilities houses, stand to lose much more than the owner/op. They have a huge amount invested in high end HD gear that has been drip fed to the users in order to retain future sales and profit margins. The film question is another can of worms.

Individual Owner/Ops can for the first time purchase high end gear on a budget.

The 'DP's who have been chosen for their ownership of gear rather than talent' ('sad but true') is an economic reality, forced on you by bad producers who do not see the reality of the end product. Who are we to condemn them, did they get the lighting budget and time they needed?

These low budget productions will contimue to fail despite Red. It takes much more than technology to produce a good product. The opportunity it does offer however is to give those with talent an avenue to avoid the pitfalls of Sony and Panasonic marketing strategy and a chance to produce good quality product without the pitfalls of limited shooting mediums. Say goodbye to 720P and 1080P!

Mike C

[Nova Invicta]

The only change to what ever is out their currently is the camera and its accessories (the Red ones). Economics are economics a Zeiss lens or a Arri Matte Box did not suddenly get cheaper because of Red, technicians (good ones) didnt get cheaper because of Red and rents and rates will not either. Wake up to facts and dont get clouded by the cost of one part of the equation in the market already you have owner operators who hire similar equipment to rental companies at lower rates but the large rental companies still exist. Similarly anyone who thinks large rental companies are making fortunes have never been on the receiving end of BBC or ITV tenders the likes of ICE, Media, PV, Hammerhead, Gearhouse, Visual Impact are not raking in huge profits and a look at results from companies house for many of them verify this. Will Red be successful? yes it will but mainly for a guy who is already a billionaire anyone else who thinks its their route to fame and fortune better get a reality check unless they are a director about to become the next Ron Howard.

[Costelloe Michael]

Quote 'So much un-eductated rubbish ' unquote!

That's absolutely priceless!

Oh, by the way, funny thing you saying that Red won't change the price of Zeiss lenses, I think you'll find that it already has. :w00t:

Cheers Dude you made my day! :)

Mike C

[Liam Hall]

The market will be redefined by this camera, the rental market, i.e. facilities houses, stand to lose much more than the owner/op. They have a huge amount invested in high end HD gear that has been drip fed to the users in order to retain future sales and profit margins. The film question is another can of worms.

Individual Owner/Ops can for the first time purchase high end gear on a budget.

The 'DP's who have been chosen for their ownership of gear rather than talent' ('sad but true') is an economic reality, forced on you by bad producers who do not see the reality of the end product. Who are we to condemn them, did they get the lighting budget and time they needed?
(snip)

Not sure I follow your argument there; you seem to contradict yourself. But, I probably misread:)

I can't see the rental market being 'redifined' by Red and I find the whole 'Red's going to blast the old guard out of the water' argument misleading, immature and disrespectful.

The good rental houses will adapt and survive. The good filmmakers will adapt and survive and some mediocre talent will filter through the net. Good luck to them all.

The truth is, the UK industry is riddled with mediocre talent across all departments and that won't change until we develop a culture of learning.

When Avid and Lightworks took a foothold in the post industry in the early nineties, the streets of Soho were filled with ex-salesman from Computer Warehouse and kids with IT degrees who claimed to be qualified editors. They got work; lots of it.

The same will happen with Red; jumped-up videographers will claim to be the next Roger Deakins and rental companies that yesterday supplied a corporate coms department with a projector will tomorrow rent out a dozen Reds to the BBC.

But the cream will always rise to the top, wont it? Mostly, I think.

I'm betting, the cheaper end of the market will improve and offer the best chance to newcomers. There'll be a significant difference in quality that even some of the most blinkered and blind producers will be able to spot the difference and realise they need to adapt to survive and hopefully, that should lead to an increase in skills.

The top end of the market won't see any significant change as they've always been able to cherry pick the best talent and the best tool for the job and they'll need the full service back-up and support they currently get from the large rental houses.

Just my 25 pence worth:)

Now, if someone can tell me why I need to pay a technician to copy a file card to a back-up drive rather than simply give that responsibility to the DIT I'd be most grateful.

[Costelloe Michael]

Not sure I follow your argument there; you seem to contradict yourself. But, I probably misread:)

I can't see the rental market being 'redifined' by Red and I find the whole 'Red's going to blast the old guard out of the water' argument misleading, immature and disrespectful.

The good rental houses will adapt and survive. The good filmmakers will adapt and survive and some mediocre talent will filter through the net. Good luck to them all.



Yeah, I probably wasn't very clear about it either. :innocent: I was refering to my own disatisfaction at having to rent sub 35mm/16mm/Genesis/D20 equipment and being forced down a road that lead to the adoption of an ENG developed system. I started in the business soon after the first Sony Betacams came out and have watched the use of similar technology pervade the industry right up to and including commercials and TV Drama. The cameras have got much better but still have the legacy of an old design and it's problems and limitations. Don't get me wrong these camera have been great at doing what they are designed for but 2/3" Chip and in camera 3.1.1. processing have their limitations. Now we have a camera that offers the Cinematographer a full range of choices that was not previously possible on a digital camera, certainly not at this price point. The only thing that still remains is the non optical viewfinder.

I think that Red have developed a great product, not without it's own problems :ohmy: , that I will be able to use for most of the work I do. Not all of it, as I have a 35mm feature which we will still shoot on film even though I will have Red by this time! I meant no disrespect to the existing hire houses and see they will probably eventually adopt Red themselves, when the bugs are ironed out. Although with Visuals/24-7 it will be interesting to see how they handle the Red vs Sony situation.

I am no fanboy! But, probably along with anyone who grew up with Arri, Aaton, Movicam and Panaflex camera would be happy never to have to work with a 2/3" chip again! Now Mr Jannard, a word in your ear about this optical viewfinder design...

Mike C

[Liam Hall]

I see where you are coming from Mike.

I've already walked this path twice before - with post-production and with stills; I'm really looking forward to the new possibilities this technology offers and seeing how some of the Industry's big boys react.

[David Wyatt]

Now, if someone can tell me why I need to pay a technician to copy a file card to a back-up drive rather than simply give that responsibility to the DIT I'd be most grateful.

Not sure I follow you here. What you're describing here is the DITs job (at least it is on our jobs). Not sure if you've had any experience with the Red but in terms of technicians what most productions will require is a top notch focus puller because this camera is merciless for focus (especially in low-light, wide open scenarios). Rather more debatable is the roll of the clapper loader on Red shoots. You definitely need a 2nd assistant to be able to work efficiently as a camera team but s/he doesn't necessarily need to be as technically experienced as most film loaders are (who not only know how to load a variety of different magazines (no easy task with cameras like the Aaton 35!!) but also obviously hold the very safety of the entire day's production in their hands!)

[laguun]

guys,

it is really totally crazy how high the prices are in london.
Especially from a berlin basing perspective it seems everything is like 40-60% more expensive.

[David Wyatt]

guys,

it is really totally crazy how high the prices are in london.
Especially from a berlin basing perspective it seems everything is like 40-60% more expensive.

Everything's expensive in London...haven't you noticed? :)

[Liam Hall]

Not sure I follow you here. What you're describing here is the DITs job (at least it is on our jobs). Not sure if you've had any experience with the Red but in terms of technicians what most productions will require is a top notch focus puller because this camera is merciless for focus (especially in low-light, wide open scenarios). Rather more debatable is the roll of the clapper loader on Red shoots. You definitely need a 2nd assistant to be able to work efficiently as a camera team but s/he doesn't necessarily need to be as technically experienced as most film loaders are (who not only know how to load a variety of different magazines (no easy task with cameras like the Aaton 35!!) but also obviously hold the very safety of the entire day's production in their hands!)

Mmm, read the thread Dave. This is the second post;


We are a production company who also specialise in post production consultancy. We will be hiring out our red cameras with a Digital Imaging Technician and a Data Backup Technician.

You can PM me with any questions

If someone could explain why I need to employ a data back-up assistant I'd be grateful. It seems unnecessary to me, but I could be wrong. I've worked with DITS in the past and I honestly can't see why they wouldn't be able to handle a simple file transfer.

Also Dave, maybe I need to brush up on my optics but I think your claim about RED being merciless on focus is misleading; given this camera is rated at 500ASA that would give me 3&1/2 stops more DOF than if I was shooting 50ASA on that Aaton of yours.

[laguun]

Everything's expensive in London...haven't you noticed? :)

especially the coffee prices in soho do qualify as robbery.
:)

In berlin mitte, we have several restaurants called "weinerei", you only pay what you want to pay...

[Athalys]

Hi Adam,

not in UK, but we are based in Brussels, so just couple of hours by Eurostar.
We have 2 RED's available, plus 2 other expected for summer. If interested, contact me: rental@eye-lite.com

Cheers

Philip Mahieu

[David Wyatt]

Mmm, read the thread Dave. This is the second post;



If someone could explain why I need to employ a data back-up assistant I'd be grateful. It seems unnecessary to me, but I could be wrong. I've worked with DITS in the past and I honestly can't see why they wouldn't be able to handle a simple file transfer.

Also Dave, maybe I need to brush up on my optics but I think your claim about RED being merciless on focus is misleading; given this camera is rated at 500ASA that would give me 3&1/2 stops more DOF than if I was shooting 50ASA on that Aaton of yours.

Ahh now it makes sense...indeed a "data back-up assistant" does seem to be over-kill if you've already got a DIT.

In terms of the shallowness - seeing is believing!! It's not actually rated as a 500ASA camera (more like 320ASA) but you can of course rate it that way if you need to without too many problems. It's true if it's a bright, sunny day (a typical 50ASA day) you'll have loads of DOF on the Red (in fact you'll need a load of ND to get it down to a workable stop - i.e. one that has a pleasing shallowness and no diffraction). But what if you're filming at night or with available light/low light, or any other filming environment we constantly find ourselves in when we have to shoot wide open. This is when you'll find the focus on the Red to be merciless, particularly on long lenses and/or close subjects. If you compare like with like you'll notice the Red's noticeably shallower (don't take our word for it though, it's been noted by various post production facilities we've dealt with in the process of transferring some Red material to a 35mm print). It's just obvious when you see it on a big screen (we even shot some of our tests with Master Primes at T1.3 - now that's scary for focus pullers!). No-one appears to have hazarded a guess on the boards as to what the Red's CoC is but I'd completely guess at it being somewhere between 1/2000th - 1/4000th of an inch (which is merciless in certain situations).

[Liam Hall]

In terms of the shallowness - seeing is believing!!(snip)
Now I'm really confused. Can this camera change the laws of physics?

Red sensor 24.4 mm x 13.7 mm
Super 35mm 24.89 mm by 18.67

There should be minimal change in DOF between formats - in fact RED will have slightly more DOF.

Are the people who claim RED to have less DOF used to looking at 35mm images or do they have a background in video? I can see that it's quite a learning curve for some people trained in video especially if you normally use cameras with 1/2 inch or 1/3 inch chip but it shouldn't vex any focus puller worth their salt.

[David Wyatt]

Now I'm really confused. Can this camera change the laws of physics?

Red sensor 24.4 mm x 13.7 mm
Super 35mm 24.89 mm by 18.67

There should be minimal change in DOF between formats - in fact RED will have slightly more DOF.

Are the people who claim RED to have less DOF used to looking at 35mm images or do they have a background in video? I can see that it's quite a learning curve for some people trained in video especially if you normally use cameras with 1/2 inch or 1/3 inch chip but it shouldn't vex any focus puller worth their salt.

Don't worry...there's no laws of physics changing. DoF isn't just determined purely by the size of the capturing format - there are other things like the sharpness of the lenses and the resolution of the capturing format (that's why if you look at the Samcine Mk.II DOF calculator they show various CoCs like 1/500th of an inch for 35mm with older, softer lenses but suggest 1/700th for newer lenses and modern film stocks. I haven't got the Mk.III but being newer it probably suggests even smaller CoCs (up to 1/2000th of an inch) for the newer sharper generation of lenses. Similarly the resolution of the sensor has an impact. If you simply compared it to an equally sized 35mm gate that used an old-style, softer, less-sharp stock you'd see a perceivable difference in the DoF: size isn't everything! Ultimately at the end of the day I'm afraid it's not actually about looking at graphs and equations but using your eyes and comparing it to the 35mm images you're used to shooting and viewing projected. For post houses (who are probably more used to seeing 35mm projected images than any of us) to remark on it instantly was the decider for me. One of the post houses we're dealing with wants us to do some side by sides with 35mm so maybe that will be an interesting way of demonstrating the perceived difference?

[Liam Hall]

Don't worry...(snip)
Interesting stuff Dave. I'm a director and I shoot both film and video - I can talk tech up to a point but when the conversation moves on to circles of confusion I tend to hear white noise in my head:) However, I still need convincing that there's less DOF on RED. Sharper, yes I can see that - my D300 is sharper than my RZ67 - but shallower? I'll have to see that to believe it...

Are you going to let the riff-raff come and see your 35mm test - who do I have to bribe?

Liam.

[David Wyatt]

Are you going to let the riff-raff come and see your 35mm test - who do I have to bribe?

Liam.

Absolutely - all RedUsers welcome of course (we were going to post an announcement when we had a firm date - will probably be in the next couple of weeks somewhere in Soho). PM me your email and I'll make sure it gets added to our mailing list for the announcement.

Cheers,

[Johnny Johnson]

Hate to burst everyone's bubble. but a certain established rental company (not us... at least not yet!) are going to be hiring out their red cameras for FREE and only charging for accessories. I believe they recieve them in the next month or so.

Now thats a business strategy sure to put the little guys out of business!

[Adrian Van Rossum]

A big thanks goes out to 4KLondon for taking the time to travel to Cambridge, England, to screen some of their Red footage last night on a 2K screen for FDMX .co.uk (and later let people literally get "hands on" with the kit). The projected images blew me away - from low-light tunnel shots to the steadicam shots - and has cemented my belief in the Red workflow and ethos.

[Vlad Martins]

Hi everyone!

We got several packages available now for the RED Camera in our website - www.decodeuk.com - Zeiss Superspeeds, Ultra Primes, ARRI accessories...
We are open to accommodate your needs and discuss your projects.

We will be at the BSC Show on the 14th and 15th of March showcasing the RED ONE camera.

Regards,

Vlad
Decode UK
www.decodeuk.com

[andy holland]

Hello All

I am looking for 8 - 12 Red's for a concert shoot in April in london. Its with a well known Icelandic star who shall remain nameless. The director is top draw.

I need dry hire and expereinced ops.

can any one help

Andy, get in touch direct. Andy@spinmusicuk.com

[David Wyatt]

Hello All

I am looking for 8 - 12 Red's for a concert shoot in April in london. Its with a well known Icelandic star who shall remain nameless. The director is top draw.

I need dry hire and expereinced ops.

can any one help

Andy, get in touch direct. Andy@spinmusicuk.com

Andy, 8 - 12 Red cameras? That's almost enough for a time slice...now that would be awesome! I think I may have spoken to a colleague of yours about this - there can't be that many Icelandic singers in the world! As I told your colleague we've got one Red and have contacts with another 2...you need 5 more - there are rental companies out there I know of that could make up the rest. This definitely has to happen, it would be a great advert for Red too! I think a couple of multi-camera concerts have been filmed in America but nothing on that scale I'm pretty sure. Good luck!!

[Liam Hall]

Andy, 8 - 12 Red cameras? That's almost enough for a time slice...now that would be awesome!

You only need one for a time slice:)

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

I have mentioned this both here & at .com

You can expect focus to be more critical on a Red (or Genesis etc) than on 35mm film because the sensor is totally flat. Film has a curve & grain that allows a certain fudge factor.

Sharper lenses do indeed make it more difficult to hit the mark.

Stephen


Don't worry...there's no laws of physics changing. DoF isn't just determined purely by the size of the capturing format - there are other things like the sharpness of the lenses and the resolution of the capturing format (that's why if you look at the Samcine Mk.II DOF calculator they show various CoCs like 1/500th of an inch for 35mm with older, softer lenses but suggest 1/700th for newer lenses and modern film stocks. I haven't got the Mk.III but being newer it probably suggests even smaller CoCs (up to 1/2000th of an inch) for the newer sharper generation of lenses. Similarly the resolution of the sensor has an impact. If you simply compared it to an equally sized 35mm gate that used an old-style, softer, less-sharp stock you'd see a perceivable difference in the DoF: size isn't everything! Ultimately at the end of the day I'm afraid it's not actually about looking at graphs and equations but using your eyes and comparing it to the 35mm images you're used to shooting and viewing projected. For post houses (who are probably more used to seeing 35mm projected images than any of us) to remark on it instantly was the decider for me. One of the post houses we're dealing with wants us to do some side by sides with 35mm so maybe that will be an interesting way of demonstrating the perceived difference?

[Serge Manto]

We are a production company who also specialise in post production consultancy. We will be hiring out our red cameras with a Digital Imaging Technician and a Data Backup Technician.

You can PM me with any questions

We searching any studio in Europe for post production and a responsible specialist for all production supervising.

serge_manto@yahoo.com

[Ben Wilmot]

hi - i'm still happy to provide finance for red cameras (or others) if anyone's interested.
cheers,
ben