RED One @ 30fps?

[Dominique Grenier]

Can someone confirm that the RED One cannot shoot at true timebase of 30fps (not 29.97) or 60 fps (not 59.98)?

This is for a project we're working on (not related to the RED) and the only interest in using the RED would be if it can shoot at one of those two time base. I don't care if its on 2K, since resolution isn't important.

I'd shoot it on a drive too.

Thanks,

[Jannard]

The RED ONE can shoot either 30, 29.97, 60 or 59.94 fps depending on resolution selected.

Jim

[Dominique Grenier]

The RED ONE can shoot either 30, 29.97, 60 or 59.98 fps depending on resolution selected.

Jim

I'm away so I cannot check on mine, but I can go in System / Configure / Timebase and choose 30 fps or 60 fps (resolution dependant, I know)? I don't recall having seen it, and it isn't clear in the documentation.

I'll take your word on it...:cool:

[Tai Wah Lim]

I'm away so I cannot check on mine, but I can go in System / Configure / Timebase and choose 30 fps or 60 fps (resolution dependant, I know)? I don't recall having seen it, and it isn't clear in the documentation.

I'll take your word on it...:cool:

Dominique, the documentation is quite clear on this:

Page 22 of B20 of Operation Guide:

3. Next select the project TIME BASE (this parameter was formerly known as Frame Rate)

Time Base: Choose between 23.98, 24.00, 25.00 or 29.97fps. The time base establishes the base frame rate for a project, and so should not be adjusted. Use Varispeed if shooting above or below this base frame rate for slow motion effects.

Note: 2K and 3K record resolutions also support 50.00 and 59.94 fps Project Time Bases

Lim

[Dominique Grenier]

Dominique, the documentation is quite clear on this:

Page 22 of B20 of Operation Guide:

3. Next select the project TIME BASE (this parameter was formerly known as Frame Rate)

Time Base: Choose between 23.98, 24.00, 25.00 or 29.97fps. The time base establishes the base frame rate for a project, and so should not be adjusted. Use Varispeed if shooting above or below this base frame rate for slow motion effects.

That basically goes against what Jim said.

I know I can use varispeed, but that's not what I need. I need to shoot at 30 fps, and have the final timebase of the project to be of 30fps, not 29.97.

[Dominique Grenier]

So, I'm back at our RED and all I can select for Timebase, when in 2K 2:1, is 23.98, 24.00, 25.00, 29.97fps, 50.00 or 59.94. Am I missing something?

[Craig Parkes]

What post/display environment utiliises true 30P audio recording and playback (the only reason you could possibly be wanting a true 30P timebase?).

Even without the answer to that question, the solution to me would seem to be shoot on a 29.97 timebase, 30FPS varispeed, and slate your sound and line up in post.

[Paul Leeming]

Time base and framerate are independent of one another.

Red One cannot (currently) shoot with a 30.00fps or 60.00fps TIME BASE but with varispeed selected, CAN shoot those speeds (though audio will be disabled).

If audio needs to be recorded in camera then I'm afraid Red won't be the right camera for you.

But if you don't need audio then set 30 or 60fps using varispeed, and then in post (using Adobe CS4 as an example) simply Interpret Footage to exactly 30 or 60fps for the software to play it back at those speeds (which will be their TRUE speeds anyway, you're just letting the software know that).

HTH

Paul

[Dominique Grenier]

Red One cannot (currently) shoot with a 30.00fps or 60.00fps TIME BASE but with varispeed selected, CAN shoot those speeds (though audio will be disabled).

Yeah, that's what I figured.


If audio needs to be recorded in camera then I'm afraid Red won't be the right camera for you.

Audio doesn't need to be recorded. I didn't explain what I need because it is rather complicated to explain briefly, but since we go into "alternative methods", I guess I should give it a try.

This project isn't "film/cinema/video" related in the strict sense. We are working on a giant architectural production. We're now in the final stage of production. The show is assembled on a system that feed 25 projectors. At this stage, the system is hooked to 25 computer displays assembled on a wall, so the operator can see what he is doing.

Now, the only way to take the show and send it to the sound guys, is to actually shoot the display wall and output it as a quicktime movie that they then can import within ProTools and work as usual.

Obviously, sync is an issue. The show runs at 60fps, but the Timecode displayed is at 30fps. Worst, since the wall is so big, we actually have to shoot it in 5 parts and combine them within AE. Each pass is about 1 hour long.

In the past, we were shooting it with a cheap cam here that was running at 29.97. We then would recombine the passes in AE within a 30 fps composition.

It worked but it was kinda "soft", you know, not very precise, with lots of variables that could make it go wrong.

This year, we wanted to try something a bit more precise, this is why I thought of using my RED.


But if you don't need audio then set 30 or 60fps using varispeed, and then in post (using Adobe CS4 as an example) simply Interpret Footage to exactly 30 or 60fps for the software to play it back at those speeds (which will be their TRUE speeds anyway, you're just letting the software know that).

That was something I thought, but I wasn't sure. Let suppose I shoot it with a timebase of 29.97, but with varispeed enabled at 30fps. I am effectively slowing down the footage of about 0.1%, right? And when in After Effects if I interpret it at 30fps, I'll speed it of 0.1%, putting it back at the speed it was when it played back on the production system, right? So basically, if I match the Timecode within my AE composition, they should stay in sync for the whole thing, right?

Problem is, I cannot test it on the real thing until we are ready, since it will take too much time, and we're on a real deadline. I'll do a test later at my place, on my computer where I'll make a 30fps QuickTime with a big timecode, and I'll shoot it with the above mentioned settings and see what I can come up with.

In the mean time, any idea if that'll work?

[Tom Visser]

just out of curiosity, can you go back and explain why you need 30fps instead of 29.97? If this media is ever going to be dsiplayed on TV, a DVD, or ever played back on any consumer display device, it will have to be converted back to 29.97. If it is for web delivery only, I suppose 30fps is ok.

The only instance you would want to change to 30fps timebase is if the audio crew sets their reference clock to 48.048 KHz instead of the standard 48 (or apply a .1% pullup to the audio). This would be highly unusual for audio to do unless told specifically to do so by post. ...and if post did promulgate such an order, I think it's wiseness would be questioned as it simply convoluted an otherwise straightforward process.

[Dominique Grenier]

Go back and read my post #9 (just above yours), I explain it as best as I can.

It won't ever be displayed on any consumer device nor the Internet, we are making an architectural projection.

[Tom Visser]

Go back and read my post #9 (just above yours), I explain it as best as I can.

It won't ever be displayed on any consumer device nor the Internet, we are making an architectural projection.

That describes the projection setup, but then you intend to acquire footage from the event on a RED One, which has nothing to do with the vertical synch rate of the projection system. Assuming that each projector will be fed via VGA, DVI, or HDMI, it could conceivably display an actual 60Hz vertical synch (really slow for a data projector), but if fed video, it is going to display at 29.97. Also assuming that it is front projection and fixed panel projection (not CRT), you should not have to worry about strobing effects, so you could really shoot at whatever frame rate you want, 29.97 or 30fps and you shouldn't see any artifacts from the installation / performance in either case.

I can't help you with the question about wether or not the RED can shoot at 30fps timebase, but just wanted to reiterate some things to consider in the decision to change timebase...

If you shoot with a camera running 30fps timebase, the audio recorder or ProTools system would have to run with a clock that is .1% overcranked or 44.1441KHz vs 44.1KHz or 48.048KHz vs 48KH, etc... ProTools HD can do this, I don't think ProTools LE can do this, maybe it can with DV Toolkit extension or one of the production packs. Anyways, most audio people would not think to pullup their audio during acquisition unless it was specifically called for, so just be careful.

Normally, audio would record at 48KHz, set their timecode to 30fps and you would acquire at 30fps.

It would also be perfectly acceptable to record audio at 48.048KHz, (the audio recorder would set 48Khz with a .1% pullup) acquire at 30fps, cut at 30/30, etc... but like I mentioned, everyone in the chain needs to be aware of what they are doing otherwise risk double pulling of the audio into an unusable state.

[Dominique Grenier]

Thanks for your reply. Just a precision, we are not acquiring footage of the actual event. We're still in the production stage. I'm not sure if you are familiar with the WatchOut System, but the one we use works upon the same principle. There's one master "production" computer hooked to a number of servers (25 in our case) that are in turn hooked to a projector. Right now, while we create the show, in order to preview what's being done, the output of each server is hooked to a display that match the resolution of the projector.

There's 25 displays, and they are displayed on a wall that mimic the shape of the building. It's this wall the we shoot.

I can't comment on how the displays are setup in more technical terms than this (not because I won't, but because I don't know), but for the audio, we are not recording any audio actually. All we do, is shoot the display wall, so we can then assemble them in a Quicktime movie that we can give to the sound guys. We're all in the same building and the sound guys are involved in the process. We managed to get something that worked last year, but I was asked to see if we could come up with something that doesn't look like a hack.

Basically the projection system works at 30fps and the sound run at 30fps. When we take the audio and the media part together into the system everything is in sync and plays well. No problem there. The problem is getting the media into ProTools in a precise manner.

Within each pass that we do, there's a timecode on one display that is in the frame. This timecode is running at 30fps. At the end of the capture process, when we playback within ProTools, there's a sync issue that cannot be compensated within ProTools, because if they do, when put back into the projection system, the sound and image won't be synced anymore.

I'm not sure if am I being clear? That's rather technical and complicated, and english isn't my native language...

[Paul Leeming]

Dominique, if you aren't recording live audio with the images then I would simply set the camera to 29.97fps as TIME BASE, as the timecode will be listed as whole frames and not percentages of frames: 01:00:00:00 to 01:00:00:29 for one second comprised of 30 full progressive frames.

If you then need to make it exactly 30fps for ProTools (seems like an odd request but possible I guess) then just Interpret Footage in your editing application to exactly 30fps and cut using that framerate. There won't be any perceivable speed change in the motion you shot.

After that just render out your final cut as 30.00fps Quicktime MOV and hand it to the ProTools people to add/design the sound for.

HTH

Paul

[Stuart English]

Let me see if I can explain here.

The RED ONE can technically operate at 30.00 or 29.97 and 59.94 or 60.00, just as it can operate at 23.98 or 24.00 as a Project Frame Rate.

But unlike 24.00, there aren't any obvious application for 30.00 / 60.00 and you will have major post issues if you select those by mistake.

If you really need to shoot true 30.00, either PM me and we can talk about the application, or do this - set the Project Frame Rate to 24.00. Set Varispeed to 30 fps. Export the resulting movie as a DPX sequence, and re-import the DPX's as a new QuicKtime Movie at 30 fps.

[Dominique Grenier]

Thanks guys. Stuart, PM sent.

[Cail Young]

Or, if you have access to Cinema Tools, you can change the framerate flag in a rendered quicktime to 30FPS.

And maybe next year, run the whole show at a video-friendly framerate?

[Denis Buhot]

As far as I have experimented with build 16, you can shoot 4k, 30 fps, only using varispeed AND changing redcode from redcode 36 to redcode 28. Operation guide is mistaken on that issue.