Epic Portability?

[Tom Lowe]

I'm trying to get my head around how I will afford a full Epic FF35 setup.

What I really, really need is its overcranking abilities. I am wanting to mix super-high-speed shots -- 100fps and up -- with my 5.6K RAW timelapse shots. So FF35 Scarlet won't work.

But... my main issue is that I need a setup that is extremely light, fast to set up, and at least somewhat "inconspicuous". The 5D2 is so stealthy that I can set it up anywhere and shoot -- I never get hassled about permits, etc, because it looks so small and basic. People don't even realize I'm shooting video.

What would be the most stripped-down setup I could hope for with Epic FF35mm - in terms of size and weight? I guess in terms of lenses I could use Canon or Nikon with simple screw-on filters to keep the size of the rig down - or maybe the new hybrid Red FF35 lenses (will those take screw-on filters?).

I might want to throw the whole thing into a backpack and hike the camera several miles into the mountains with some carbon-fiber legs and a light fluid head. What will be the minimum setup weight and size for this type of overcranked shooting?

I guess if I am finishing a project at 1080p, I could always get a 2/3" as well for this type of thing.

[Jonathan Stevenson]

From the looks of the pictures that have been published, a stripped down Epic with just a brain, battery handle, redmote and lens will only be about the side of a 5D2, except a bit thicker in the back (minus the overkill 7inch LCD of course).

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i254/jonny168/DSMC.jpg

[Tom Lowe]

Thanks for the photo. Is there a smaller option for LCD? Is there an LCD on the body itself?

[Jonathan Stevenson]

I sure hope so. I'm pretty sure not everyone's going to want to tote around a screen like that one, regardless of the bragging possibilities.

[Tom Lowe]

Maybe if there could be a 4" 720p screen that mounted directly to the top of the body with only a ball swivel?

[Jonathan Stevenson]

I gotta believe that Red has something in the works. I think it'd be unreasonable to expect still shooters to be stuck with a full size LCD.

[David Mullen ASC]

Isn't it a bit crazy though to shoot 5 or 6K, FF35 depth of field, and only have a tiny 4" (possibly) LCD screen to judge focus on a manual cine lens? At least with a Canon, you've got an optical viewfinder, you have auto focus controls, etc. Personally I think you're going to craving the larger LCD screen. Maybe you can flip it over the backside of the camera to reduce the profile.

[Pawel Achtel]

Isn't it a bit crazy though to shoot 5 or 6K, FF35 depth of field, and only have a tiny 4" (possibly) LCD screen to judge focus on a manual cine lens? At least with a Canon, you've got an optical viewfinder, you have auto focus controls, etc. Personally I think you're going to craving the larger LCD screen. Maybe you can flip it over the backside of the camera to reduce the profile.

I will take 1:1 over an optical VF any time. You can also use laser distance meter and well calibrated focus marks on the lens.

But, I like larger LCD for framing.

[Stefan Christou]

I'm with David and Pawel on the big LCDs. It's pretty conspicuous but the bigger the better. If you can put a 24" on it: do it.

But for a light covert kit why not go with the little EVF that's been touted?

Edit. The bomb EVF pic...

http://reduser.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=164&d=1245883084

[Graeme Nattress]

David, I don't know if you've played much with a modern Canon DSLR, but I have, and the optical viewfinder completely lies with it's depiction of DOF. The DOF will appear much, much deeper than it really is. Now, I'm no optics guru, but I understand it to be to do with how they make the ground glass, and make the image you see brighter.

Before anyone asks, I know about the DOF preview button, and I know how the camera shows you the scene "wide open" and only stops down when you make an exposure.

Graeme

[Andrew Walker]

From what I've seen at NAB and on here Epic can be built pretty small. So I don't think it will be a problem. Also the use of the EVF or the Bomb EVF seems to be the best bet. You should be able to position the EVF in a way on the side of the camera to almost hide it to cut down on the size of the cameras profile.

[Tom Lowe]

Yeah the Bomb EVF might be the ticket, or maybe a 5" 720p LCD on a swivel mount would be fine for focus, unless you are doing serious cinema work, in which case you're not worried about keeping a low profile or staying light and compact.

Once again, though, I would like to stress the importance of being able to digitally "zoom" in for a pixel-for-pixel or 10X LCD view, to pull and confirm focus. There is simply no way possible -- at least not for me! -- to look through an optical viewfinder and completely 100% nail focus down to the pixels on a 6K camera with a badass lens. You need that ability to punch in and check it digitally, IMHO.

[Andrew Walker]

Yeah the Bomb EVF might be the ticket, or maybe a 5" 720p LCD on a swivel mount would be fine for focus, unless you are doing serious cinema work, in which case you're not worried about keeping a low profile or staying light and compact.

Once again, though, I would like to stress the importance of being able to digitally "zoom" in for a pixel-for-pixel or 10X LCD view, to pull and confirm focus. There is simply no way possible -- at least not for me! -- to look through an optical viewfinder and completely 100% nail focus down to the pixels on a 6K camera with a badass lens. You need that ability to punch in and check it digitally, IMHO.

I'm sure 1:1 zooming will be in the Epics right out of the gate. I just figured out that my 40D can do the same thing with the live view on. Now I can get all my timelapse shots razor sharp. Optical view finds suck on a digital camera. I love to hear people bitch about Red not having one. Granted the list of people that complain about that is rather short.

[Roberto Lequeux]

With the EVF Bomb and a heavy RPP mounted the setup felt tiny in my hands and feather-light when you think about what it does. Jared told me it was two or three pounds lighter than the final but you could easily make up for that with a different lens if need be, and in the process balance the setup a bit better. You are getting everything you wished for Tom, and if the EVF Bomb doesn't cut it for some reason then I think you might be able to get a thin SD-card Pelican type case to carry the 7". My hopes is that the EVF will be closer to 1080 than 720 in pixel count but you never know what works best for you till you hold the stuff and test it.

[Tom Lowe]

I'm sure 1:1 zooming will be in the Epics right out of the gate. I just figured out that my 40D can do the same thing with the live view on. Now I can get all my timelapse shots razor sharp. Optical view finds suck on a digital camera. I love to hear people bitch about Red not having one. Granted the list of people that complain about that is rather short.

Exactly. Once I got my 5D2 and checked out that 1:1 or 10x zoom or whatever it is, I found out very quickly that my optical viewfinder skills were a joke!! But now, I always get 100% razor sharp landscapes. That's when the quality of the lens really begins to show.

I hope there will be a joystick or something handy to move a little box around the screen with Epic. It will be interesting to see what Red comes up with in terms of features to help with focusing. Who knows, they might surprise us.

[Roberto Lequeux]

I hope there will be a joystick or something handy to move a little box around the screen with Epic.

Yes, it definitely should be a something like the joystick on the R1 which should become automatically activated for positioning when you open up the 1:1 and require an other button to be pressed to get out of it. I hate 1:1 boxes because of this very limitation. I don't like having to re-frame and some times it is the last thing I want to do.

[David Mullen ASC]

Well, optical viewfinders in movie cameras have a magnifier function, but it's the same problem as zooming into the digital image on an LCD -- that's fine for checking focus during a static shot, or before a take, or a still image, but how do you compose during a dolly move while trying to judge focus at the same time? This is why big bright optical viewfinders are so important in a film camera, or a nice, big, sharp monitor/viewfinder image on a digital camera. You guys are thinking too much like still photographers, that focusing is done once on a static subject before you take the picture, not that you are going to have to pan and tilt and compose as the subject moves towards and away from you and the focus is always changing.

If you've ever had to judge focus during a moving shot while operating and had looked through the viewfinder of a 35mm Panaflex Platinum or Arricam versus any electronic finder made for any digital cine camera out there, you would understand why operators love a nice, clear optical image. The only thing that comes close is when you start getting into using 7" onboard HD monitors.

[Tom Lowe]

David, in this case, I was really only talking about grabbing portable landscape and nature shots, for example. Not cinema setups. With cinema setups, there is no real need for portability of the kind we are discussing here. I'm just trying to figure out the absolute most compact setup for Epic FF35. I think I could get by with a 5" 720p LCD for a lot of this type of shooting. Being compact and inconspicuous can lead to great shots that would otherwise be impossible with a full-on movie camera setup.

A 4" - 5" LCD might be a nice option for people wanting to throw their Epics into a backpack and shoot wildlife or nature shots, or even grab slice-of-life shots around the city.

[David Mullen ASC]

A 4" - 5" LCD might be a nice option for people wanting to throw their Epics into a backpack and shoot wildlife or nature shots, or even grab slice-of-life shots around the city.

Sure, or the EVF Bomb -- I'm sure it must have some sort of zoom function to check focus.

[Tom Lowe]

David, are you thinking about getting an Epic yourself?

I'm dreading the cost, but drooling over the possibilities of what could be shot with that camera.

[Claus Mueller]

May it's a bit off topic here, but I'm also searching for the most compact solution with RPPs (R1 later EPIC). How can we mount filters on RPPs without using a mattebox (i.e. LMB-5)? I think the RPPs have no threaded filter mounts, so I'm thinking about a clamp-on adapter or so.

[Andrew Walker]

David, are you thinking about getting an Epic yourself?

I'm dreading the cost, but drooling over the possibilities of what could be shot with that camera.

Start saving Tom. But your waiting until the FF35 comes out, right? I hate to wait plus I want to get that special packaged deal for the Epic X. So I'm getting the 5K Epic then moving up to the FF35...when I can.

[Roberto Lequeux]

I completely agree, lack of a 7" Pro or Panasonic 8.4" is a deal breaker if there is a deal breaker on a Red package rental. But for Tom focusing must be much different. I was dreaming of a control unit that let you write a timeline for ramping focus from an object to an other and work out the timing. Add a dolly move to that and by timing out two more segments of that timeline you could make a helluva shot. Though you I suppose you can push the f/stop quite a bit shooting stills. I wonder how far you can push it for something like this, there is a lot more light than at the dessert.

I think the EVF Bomb might be the way to go for you Tom. Though a wireless screen might be fun to have too. :)

I can't wait to see an EVF Bomb in action. It is supposed to gain a ton of resolution at equal or better quality than the current. A real kicker is that it is incredibly compact in comparison to the current. About half the lenght and thinner. It is also nicely articulated with a nice range of adjustment all while making the operation of the camera feel a lot more like a DSLR. With the Bomb the whole apparatus feels exactly as a D3 or 1D. If anything it is actually smaller than both top dogs when you remove the secondary handle. PL lens size will be the only difference.

The EVF on the one I held felt solid. There is no load on the arm's movement, but when locked it was plenty solid. Twisting the locking ring on the elbow felt quick and easy to operate. There was no Alcantara leather covering the metal, but since the one I held was obviously not the final version... there is hope. :)

Hopefully Red manages to work everything into their insane R&D schedule, satisfying both the never ending hunger for resolution and retaining the physical size as is sure to please everyone. I would personally love it if they also managed to find a way to deal with performance in severe cold weather. But if they don't, there are several nifty and simple ways around that colds which attacks all electronics a at below freezing temperatures.

Don't mean to brag but... well, who am I kidding' here: Here is a picture of me holding a shiny little monster while trying not to faint from the excitement.

http://www.zumovalusa.com/DELETE/Happy.jpg

[Tom Lowe]

It's amazing that a camera that size is going to replace this:

http://meinardus.com/images/Mei-001_cameraman_350h_XP.gif

[David Mullen ASC]

I don't have the disposable income that some of you guys seem to have, so I'd really have to think about whether it makes sense to buy a camera. I'd have to either find use for it as a C-camera on a show, like for 2nd Unit shots, etc. or to shoot my own stuff on it. And then the question becomes whether to get the S35 or FF35 Epic.

If the camera was going to augment a rental package of S35 cameras, then it would make more sense to get an S35 Epic, but if it were more to shoot my own stuff, or to shoot landscapes and efx plates, with perhaps some still camera lenses (until Red made some FF35 lenses to cover the wider angles), then the FF35 Epic makes sense, plus I'd have the dynamic range advantage of the 14-bit Monstro sensor. Of course, I could still shoot S35 stuff on a FF35 camera, so perhaps the FF35 Epic makes more sense. But I don't know what the cost differences would be.

Other than my house, the most expensive thing I've ever bought in my life was a $26,000 Toyota Prius...

If you drop $40,000, let's say, for a camera package, how much of that is deductible as a business expense at tax time?

[Andrew Walker]

I don't have the disposable income that some of you guys seem to have, so I'd really have to think about whether it makes sense to buy a camera. I'd have to either find use for it as a C-camera on a show, like for 2nd Unit shots, etc. or to shoot my own stuff on it. And then the question becomes whether to get the S35 or FF35 Epic.

If the camera was going to augment a rental package of S35 cameras, then it would make more sense to get an S35 Epic, but if it were more to shoot my own stuff, or to shoot landscapes and efx plates, with perhaps some still camera lenses (until Red made some FF35 lenses to cover the wider angles), then the FF35 Epic makes sense, plus I'd have the dynamic range advantage of the 14-bit Monstro sensor. Of course, I could still shoot S35 stuff on a FF35 camera, so perhaps the FF35 Epic makes more sense. But I don't know what the cost differences would be.

Other than my house, the most expensive thing I've ever bought in my life was a $26,000 Toyota Prius...

If you drop $40,000, let's say, for a camera package, how much of that is deductible as a business expense at tax time?

All of that $40,000 should be a tax write off towards your business. Or you might only be able to write off so much of it depending on your income. I once heard that $30K was the limit of write offs but I think that was for when I was doing my taxes.

I wish RED had a trade-in plan going from the Epic-X to the FF35 Epic because that's where I really want to end up. If they offered a FF35 Epic-X that I just had to wait a little longer for I would just do that...maybe.

[Tom Lowe]

I don't have the disposable income that some of you guys seem to have, so I'd really have to think about whether it makes sense to buy a camera. I'd have to either find use for it as a C-camera on a show, like for 2nd Unit shots, etc. or to shoot my own stuff on it. And then the question becomes whether to get the S35 or FF35 Epic.

If the camera was going to augment a rental package of S35 cameras, then it would make more sense to get an S35 Epic, but if it were more to shoot my own stuff, or to shoot landscapes and efx plates, with perhaps some still camera lenses (until Red made some FF35 lenses to cover the wider angles), then the FF35 Epic makes sense, plus I'd have the dynamic range advantage of the 14-bit Monstro sensor. Of course, I could still shoot S35 stuff on a FF35 camera, so perhaps the FF35 Epic makes more sense. But I don't know what the cost differences would be.

Other than my house, the most expensive thing I've ever bought in my life was a $26,000 Toyota Prius...

If you drop $40,000, let's say, for a camera package, how much of that is deductible as a business expense at tax time?

David, are you worried about the ethical implications of renting your own camera to a production you are DPing?

My guess is that many of your future features will be shot on Epic FF35 or S35 as they gain market share, so in terms of the shots matching, I would have to think that this won't be a problem. I'm sure you could get a lease for an Epic, considering your stature and the amount you work. I will probably have to lease or finance mine. I doubt I can pony up the full amount in cash. The lease or finance companies are mainly just looking at how much you work and your ability to make the payments.

[Roberto Lequeux]

I wish RED had a trade-in plan going from the Epic-X to the FF35 Epic because that's where I really want to end up. If they offered a FF35 Epic-X that I just had to wait a little longer for I would just do that...maybe.

This keeps coming to mind as something that Red might consider. Or an other but much smaller discount for the S35-X to FF35-X upgrade since they are all R1 owners. Not sure what could or could not be done, but it sounds like a great incentive.

[Tom Lowe]

Why not just wait for the FF35 Epic? I guess there are some freebies with the Epic-X?

[rod bradley]

I believe on the tax question there are several ways to go & elaborate formulas and regulations dictating how you do it -- usually on a big ticket item it's to your advantage to amortize the cost over a period of years. And there are limits on the single year deduction if you file as Schedule C professional. But of course you have to income to offset the deduction.

All in all, a rough formula is you end up saving about 20% of the cost in tax savings. This is from my personal experience, playing it straight, doing my own taxes over the years. I'm not an accountant or tax professional.

[Andrew Walker]

David, are you worried about the ethical implications of renting your own camera to a production you are DPing?

My guess is that many of your future features will be shot on Epic FF35 or S35 as they gain market share, so in terms of the shots matching, I would have to think that this won't be a problem. I'm sure you could get a lease for an Epic, considering your stature and the amount you work. I will probably have to lease or finance mine. I doubt I can pony up the full amount in cash. The lease or finance companies are mainly just looking at how much you work and your ability to make the payments.

I'm going to try and pay for mine in gold. I figure its going to be about $1,500 pre ounce by the end of the year if things keep going the way they are. Then I just need to spend some time up at my property processing ore and working the creeks. I should be ready to go when the FF35 is ready to ship.:thumbsup:

[Ivan G]

Please don't shoot me I have a quick question! What is the weight of the Epic running with everything but lens e.g. body, battery, EVF bomb....

[Tom Lowe]

I'm going to try and pay for mine in gold. I figure its going to be about $1,500 pre ounce by the end of the year if things keep going the way they are. Then I just need to spend some time up at my property processing ore and working the creeks. I should be ready to go when the FF35 is ready to ship.:thumbsup:

Lol you got any extra pans up there?

[Andrew Walker]

Lol you got any extra pans up there?

I might...just have to watch out for the bears and mountain lions we have on our property.

[Tom Lowe]

Drew, we should start a cult or something on your property. Try to recruit some college babes to be our followers. :)

[David Mullen ASC]

Please don't shoot me I have a quick question! What is the weight of the Epic running with everything but lens e.g. body, battery, EVF bomb....

Zero. Because the final design of the camera and accessories don't exist yet.

[Andrew Walker]

Drew, we should start a cult or something on your property. Try to recruit some college babes to be our followers. :)

Easy with that talk man. You know what they do when you start a cult. They sick the FBI and ATF on you then burn your place to the ground. Believe me we already have everyone we know hitting us up to go out there and just play. Its like your own private forest. I'm going to try and go up there this weekend.

But the idea about the college babes doesn't sound like a bad idea.:smile5:

[Tom Lowe]

Okay, I will recruit the college babes, you are responsible for establishing some cabins or nice camping spots for our new hippy babe followers....

[Andrew Walker]

Okay, I will recruit the college babes, you are responsible for establishing some cabins or nice camping spots for our new hippy babe followers....

The cabins that we are going to build up there are going to be 10x12 with no running water to them. As doing it this way lets us build them without permits from the county. Here's one that was built back when the place was a mining camp. Still very livable just needs a little work.

http://599productions.com/599/Media/Cabin1.jpg

http://599productions.com/599/Media/Cabin2.jpg

http://599productions.com/599/Media/Cabin3.jpg

...and yes its build on a hillside. Great shooting positions. Thinking about outfitting the one I'll be in with a portable solar kit. Should be fun.



To keep this on topic. I'm looking forward to a light handheld setup using the Epic. Should be quite a bit lighter with just the brain, lens and LCD or EVF on my shoulder.