"24" quote...

[Jannard]

"I have had the opportunity to test the RED ONE camera over the past few weeks, including a direct comparison to the same film I shoot on "24". All I can say is that I am totally amazed. Revolutionary might not be a strong enough word to describe what RED is doing."

Rodney Charters
Cinematographer on "24"

We have opened the RED doors to Rodney and Robin for full testing without limits. I guess they were happy with the results.

Jim

[Justin K Phillips]

Heh...have you talked to anyone working on "Heroes" yet? That's one show I'd like to see shot with the RED ONE.

Great news, by the way. The more the merrier! Now if only I could get my hands on a RED. I suppose it's one of those things I'll have to earn...like money...and experience...

[Marc Higa]

damn....the hits just keep on coming.

[Mark L. Pederson]

"I have had the opportunity to test the RED ONE camera over the past few weeks, including a direct comparison to the same film I shoot on "24". All I can say is that I am totally amazed. Revolutionary might not be a strong enough word to describe what RED is doing."

Rodney Charters
Cinematographer on "24"

We have opened the RED doors to Rodney and Robin for full testing without limits. I guess they were happy with the results.

Jim

and to think ... some called it vaporware!

[Kip Hewitt]

24, by design, seems to spend a significant part of it's season shooting in dark places. I would love to see how 8000 ISO could be applied for dramatic storytelling purposes. Wide Epic vistas may no longer be the sole domain of exterior daylight shots. (The LA city streets of Collateral comes to mind.)

[Laco Zamba]

I was expecting 24 testing and this result. It's great news. Thanks.

[Shawn Nelson]

Wow! This helps us so much to have people of this caliber giving such quotes. It really pisses all over the brush fires that competitors light by suggestions of illigitimacy.

So the big question, will Rodney now drop the 35mm film and shoot 24 with Red?

[Jannard]

The bad news is that "24" starts shooting the next season in 10 days and we don't have enough prototypes to go around.

Jim

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Great news Jim. Shout out to Rodney for his great work on "24". As the storylines have become ever more predictable and the writing in general has deteriorated the look of the show has remained one of the franchise's greatest assets. The "A" camera operator, who deserves huzzahs all around for some of the best "roving eye style without the headache" work out there, is probably getting to like the smaller form factor - real fast.

I read somewhere that Keifer Sutherland felt like film was the only real medium for serious acting. Has his disdain for video been overcome by an understanding of what the RedOne really is and how different it is than any other "video" camera? Seems like a lot to expect an actor to understand :shifty: .

The real rub here is that my wife and I were NOT planning to watch "24" next season since this last one had been so weak. Now I have to convince her that we have to watch it because it's shot with the RedOne - this camera is going to lead me to my second divorce yet :waaa: .

Just read the last note from Jim that Rodney won't be able to use the RedOne for the upcoming season - whew, I really like my wife.

[Rocket]

"All I can say is that I am totally amazed. Revolutionary might not be a strong enough word to describe what RED is doing."

Film making is about to be completely redefined. It will never be the same again. I started researching today to put together a side by side specification comparison of the major players in digial cine aquisition for 4khub.com.

This basically came down to five cameras, the Arri D20, Panavision Genesis, Thompson Grass Valley Viper, DALSA Origin, and Red One.

Looking at the cameras side by side there is no comparison. First off, the Viper and Genesis are both glorified HD cameras, only capable of 1920 x 1080 HD (be it RGB 4:4:4), and though the Genesis at least has a 35mm sized sensor, the Viper is stuck with 3 x 2/3" CCD's.

So, this leaves us with the three main contenders. The Arri is a good camera, no doubts about that, I had a chance to see it in action at MediaTech this year in Johannesburg, and with a friend who is S.A.'s only Scratch rep, we managed to hook it's 2K output directly into the Scratch system. For 2K RGB 4:4:4 output, it at least counts as a true digital cine camera, not HD in disguise.

However, when it comes to 4K, we are left with DALSA's Origin which I remember being totally awestruck with at NAB in 2003, and the Red One. At first look, these two seem to have similar capabilities, however the Red beats the Origin both on resolution and cost, and the more I research the nitty gritty details, the more it stands out even from the Origin.

In the end, when all is said and done, Red is what we have all been waiting for, and the competition (if it can even be called that) simply fades into the distance.

There is only one digital cine camera and it has RED written all over it.

[Shawn Nelson]

The real rub here is that my wife and I were NOT planning to watch "24" next season since this last one had been so weak. Now I have to convince her that we have to watch it because it's shot with the RedOne - this camera is going to lead me to my second divorce yet :waaa: .

See Jim's post, they aren't shooting with Red, as they don't have enough cameras to go around.

Hopefully the season after he will. It'd be nice to see a great quote turned into using the system!

[Poi Boy]

I think sutherlands objection is to working (acting) in front of a small camera and not necessarily a film versus video thing. 24 wasn't very strong this year but my wife and I still had to watch Jack kick ass. Maybe some of you guys that are going to rent your cameras can help them out.
Aloha
-A

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Poi Boy you read my mind, if only I would have #19 in hand soon enough I would jump at the chance to work with Rodney. No matter what I may think of the writing the last couple of seasons, the look consistently supports the scenes and the larger story arcs.

One of the things Rodney does exceedingly well is make excellent choices in what the light reveals in the darker sets. He manages to provide excellent depth to the physical space, get textures to read and balance the frame in a freakin' action show. He also is willing to let actors move in and out of light even when it means unusual skin tone values and trusts the actors to "work" the light both when delivering lines and on reactions.

I look forward to the first thing Rodney Charters gets to shoot with the RedOne, whatever and whenever that is.

[Steve Gibby]

and to think ... some called it vaporware!

Yeah...those are the same guys who are now quietly investigating and adopting RED One - and then pretending that they were behind it all the way...:whistling:

Yesterday's "vaporware" may quickly become tomorrow's "cash cow ware".

Gonna be interesting...

[Casey Green]

Although not the case here, in the future, it will be interesting to see what unfolds politically when a DP decides to change to the RED on a show with a crew used to Film. The bonds of Camera crews are often very strong... many times resembling the relationships of a close family or perhaps more like a military unit... working alongside one another in the trenches for many years, show after show. I think it will be extremely interesting to see how this plays out when a DP of a show that has shot on film for years changes to RED. How will this be handled pertaining to his crew?

(This probably has happened a few times before with HD (sitcoms come to mind), but none that I have witnessed.)

[Michael Schrengohst]

"So the big question, will Rodney now drop the 35mm film and shoot 24 with Red?"

His lab and Tele-Cine house hopes not!

[Poi Boy]

I think the change will be rapid and cause very little termoil, except for the lab and tele cine houses. The writing is on the wall for them.
Aloha
-A

[Paolo Tinari]

24 is amazingly shot even thou they cross the line so many times. Rodney Charters saying that line about Red is finally giving me the right perception of what Red is going to be in the market

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Yeah...those are the same guys who are now quietly investigating and adopting RED One - and then pretending that they were behind it all the way...:whistling: (SNIP)

Well Steve (Gibby), you and Mark (offhollywood) certainly have the right to point out that your flags are in the front of the vanguard. Beyond that you deserve the thanks of the entire community of RedHeads for all the time, intelligence and experience you have brought to RedUser (and other forums).

[Nook Kim]

Although not the case here, in the future, it will be interesting to see what unfolds politically when a DP decides to change to the RED on a show with a crew used to Film. The bonds of Camera crews are often very strong... many times resembling the relationships of a close family or perhaps more like a military unit... working alongside one another in the trenches for many years, show after show. I think it will be extremely interesting to see how this plays out when a DP of a show that has shot on film for years changes to RED. How will this be handled pertaining to his crew?

(This probably has happened a few times before with HD (sitcoms come to mind), but none that I have witnessed.)

If the general makes a decision, the soldiers under him just follow. Isn't that
what military is all about? It was like that at least when I was a soldier.
If the DP of the show wants to change the format, I don't really see any trouble
coming from the below (obviously they will need to study the new format
if they want to keep working for the DP), but I see more troubles coming
from above.

[Casey Green]

Although not the case here, in the future, it will be interesting to see what unfolds politically when a DP decides to change to the RED on a show with a crew used to Film. The bonds of Camera crews are often very strong... many times resembling the relationships of a close family or perhaps more like a military unit... working alongside one another in the trenches for many years, show after show. I think it will be extremely interesting to see how this plays out when a DP of a show that has shot on film for years changes to RED. How will this be handled pertaining to his crew?

(This probably has happened a few times before with HD (sitcoms come to mind), but none that I have witnessed.)


If the general makes a decision, the soldiers under him just follow. Isn't that
what military is all about? It was like that at least when I was a soldier.
If the DP of the show wants to change the format, I don't really see any trouble
coming from the below (obviously they will need to study the new format
if they want to keep working for the DP), but I see more troubles coming
from above.

I'm not suggesting trouble necessarily - but I would think that there would be a lot of things to consider. How would the operators and assistants feel about a sudden change to new gear? There would definitely need to be some time to get familiar with all things RED. (I suppose there might be some operators that would prefer to stay with what they know.)

Also, the post workflow would change and that would require tests and different equipment. On a feature, there would be plenty of Prep time, but perhaps on an episodic show, this would be a bit more difficult to do in-between seasons.

Anyone have experience changing formats "mid stride"?

[Gavin Greenwalt]

This basically came down to five cameras, the Arri D20, Panavision Genesis, Thompson Grass Valley Viper, DALSA Origin, and Red One.


You forgot one of the most capable systems available on the market right now: F23.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it. Even if working with tape is akin to summoning demons from a buttermilk biscuit.

[Cory Schulthies]

The bad news is that "24" starts shooting the next season in 10 days and we don't have enough prototypes to go around.

Jim

Actually looks like they will be starting shooting a little later this year, because fox Didnt want to pay for shooting in Africa.


http://community.tvguide.com/blog-entry/TVGuide-Editors-Blog/Ausiello-Report/Exclusive-24-Plot/800018254

[Steven M. Bailey]

Maybe they will shoot the "24" movie that is scheduled for release in 09 on red. the Idea of bringing "24" to the big screen is fair enough, but even without the commercials, I don't think that I will be able to sit in the theater for that long.

My butt goes to sleep in the first six-eight and after that, popcorn just isn't going to cut it. I might just sit that one out.:biggrin:

[Phil Bates]

You forgot one of the most capable systems available on the market right now: F23.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it. Even if working with tape is akin to summoning demons from a buttermilk biscuit.

Also the Vision Research Phantom. A truly remarkable camera with a CMOS sensor. Plus, it is one of the few cameras that will not be made obsolete when RED hits critical mass, because of its ability to shoot 1000fps.

Phil
www.artbeats.com

[Yash Keough]

Wow that's an awesome quote! Rodney Charters is definitely one of my favorites because of his work on 24. Haven't continued watching the most recent season because I wasn't too nuts on what I saw but I've always loved the way the show was shot. Great news! :D Seems like all the big names using the camera have been impressed!

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Hasn't Rodney been wanting to do a piece for showreel on the RED camera for a few months now? Was he the one that performed the 35mm adapter test?

[Poi Boy]

Don't know about the Showreel thing but he did do the adapter test and I assume he made a whole bunch of money from his JVC endorcement. He has done a great job on 24 giving it a stand out look. I think last season he went too dark and contrasty (exposure wise) but definately a talent.
Aloha
-A

[Brook Willard]

This is probably the best news that I've heard in months. Rodney Charters is one of my favorite DPs and the cinematography of 24 has had a massive impact on me over the years. When I had the opportunity to chat with him briefly at NAB, I was in pig heaven. The fact that the camera has made it into that camera department's hands and this is the kind of reaction that's coming back... I can't even tell you how exciting it is for me.

Man... what I would've done to have seen it for myself. :)

[Häakon]

I agree with you completely, Brook, and his endorsement means a lot to me too. He has created amazing images with film and is extremely adept with the format, but has always remained open-minded about alternatives and publicly excited about the future of filmmaking - whatever it may be. He was indeed the one who did the 35mm adapter tests (with Taylor Wigton) for Showreel back in March of '06, which I found both very informative and thorough. I wish I could've shadowed him during his RED tests just to see his implementations and firsthand film comparison findings - there is no question we are on the cusp of a new era of cinema! What exciting times.

[Rocket]

Also the Vision Research Phantom. A truly remarkable camera with a CMOS sensor. Plus, it is one of the few cameras that will not be made obsolete when RED hits critical mass, because of its ability to shoot 1000fps.

Phil
www.artbeats.com


Yep, adding those to the comparison table now. Thanks.

Im.thatoneguy, the F23 is still an HD camera, maybe I'm a bit too anal about this but I don't understand why manufacturers seem to think 1920 x 1080 in a 3 x 2/3" CCD configuration will do it. Sony out of them all needs to get with the program. We should send them some of those high ISO test shots from Red just to rub it in their noses.

"The F23, which supports 4:4:4 1920 x 1080 RGB imaging, is aimed at the top-end of movie-making, commercials and television production."

If that quote from the Sony website is true and they can't even engineer the camera around a 35mm sized sensor, or at least add a few extra pixels to give us a true 2K output, where does that put Red?

It'll be on the comparison table, but it's not going to fare so well.

The Phantom on the other hand is another story, 2400 x 1800 at 480 exposures per second, 1920 x 1080 at almost 1000. I am not sure if I would include it in the comparison though as it is quite a specialized camera, it kind of falls into a different catagory.

[GlennChan]

They likely chose not to go with a 35mm sensor since:
- A 3 chip design with 35mm size would get impractical. Size, optics come into play.
- (supposedly) Some people have lots of 2/3" lenses that they would like to maintain

As far as not doing 2K, it's likely because HDCAM SR does not support 2K resolution. And there are advantages to recording onto HDCAM SR... it leads to a workflow that works right now. You could perhaps compare that to the Andromeda workflow... which apparently is not that good.

Of people who have used the camera, some of them are indicating that it's (becoming) their #1 choice in a camera right now (read the CML lists). We'll see if that lasts. The Red camera certainly looks like it has some big pluses going for it (e.g. nice images, very very clean / low noise / high sensitivity, viewfinder, price, 35mm DOF, 4K).

Workflow-wise it may not be as nice, though that's a toss-up. You might incur some slowdown de-bayering the footage before online, and figuring out how to move your data files around and into a compatible format. It also may not play well for facilities stuck in old-school land (old Avids that don't support the newer data formats). On the plus side (for Red), there are some downsides to tape. Log and capture kills time, having to slip stuff in online conforms kills time.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

The F23 boasts some impressive sensitivity and dynamic range itself. It has framerate ramping and is an all around excellent package. Not to mention no bayer pattern debate attached to it.

[Rocket]

In the end I think it all comes down to intended use and desired aesthetics. For broadcast, I would never argue a thing against HD in any way shape or form, but cinematography for theatrical projection is another story, and the whole CineAlta range was marketed as a digital cinematograpy solution.

I am sure it has a large and growing following and is many people's #1 choice, but if Jim let them all play with Red, I'm sure they would have the same reaction as Rodney Charters.

It is subjective to a certain extent, that is true, but in the end it comes down to very objective technical fact, to me that's the foundation upon which Red was engineered, that nobody had yet stepped up to the plate in creating a no-compromise digital cinematography solution (with the exception of DALSA). All the others, marketed however they may be, and accepted in the industry to whatever extent they may be, are full of crucial technical compromises if thier published purpose is to be a viable digital alternative to shooting 35mm film.

As far as workflow is concerned, just as Red has brought us an incredibly cost effective camera platform, Assimilate has brought to the table a incredibly flexible and cost effective real-time post solution for anyone wanting to conform, grade and finish thier Red 4K media from any CMX3600 EDL offline that could have come from any SD or HD capable NLE whether Avid Xpress Pro, Final Cut, or dare I say it even Adobe Premiere.

The excuses for manufacturers and end users are running out very quickly (in terms of digital cinema production... as I said, broadcast is something entirely different).

[Steve Gibby]

"I have had the opportunity to test the RED ONE camera over the past few weeks, including a direct comparison to the same film I shoot on "24". All I can say is that I am totally amazed. Revolutionary might not be a strong enough word to describe what RED is doing."

Rodney Charters
Cinematographer on "24"

We have opened the RED doors to Rodney and Robin for full testing without limits. I guess they were happy with the results.

Jim

IMO a very good choice...I like Rodney Charter's body of work. His strong statement about RED One is very significant...

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

Everytime Jim posts these great quotes, like the statement from Rodney Charters, the extra value of having an early RED grows...
Those who wish to make an extra dollar renting their REDs will probably do so very easily, as demand for RED ONE seems likely to be very high from day one, and RED will take some time to catch up.

[Graeme Nattress]

The F23 boasts some impressive sensitivity and dynamic range itself. It has framerate ramping and is an all around excellent package. Not to mention no bayer pattern debate attached to it.

Sure, no bayer, but also, no oversampling. That means you need optical low pass filtering, which means you're not getting 1920x1080 4:4:4 out anyway. Far better to have the proper filtering at a higher resolution, and then you're oversampling if you want to go down to 1080 or 2k.

[Michael Brennan]

Sure, no bayer, but also, no oversampling. That means you need optical low pass filtering, which means you're not getting 1920x1080 4:4:4 out anyway. Far better to have the proper filtering at a higher resolution, and then you're oversampling if you want to go down to 1080 or 2k.

(If) RED has optical low pass filter does it have similar impact on output resolution as filters on 3 chip ccd HD cameras?

In an ideal world would a selection of low pass filters adapted to particular environments (ie underwater) be usefull?


Mike Brennan

[Alexander Nikishin]

Rodney Charters is shooting a new outside shot with our updated DSP and sensor settings (tonight). I think we can post a shot in the next day or so. I'll ask him for permission.

Jim

Any eta on that Jim?

[Stephen Williams]

"The F23, which supports 4:4:4 1920 x 1080 RGB imaging, is aimed at the top-end of movie-making, commercials and television production."

The Phantom on the other hand is another story, 2400 x 1800 at 480 exposures per second, 1920 x 1080 at almost 1000. I am not sure if I would include it in the comparison though as it is quite a specialized camera, it kind of falls into a different catagory.

Hi,

I intended to use the F23 last week, until for 3 days rental with digiprimes I was quoted 25000 CHF approx $20,000. I used a Viper instead. I think the dynamic range of the F23 will be hard to beat by any camera for some time.

I testes the Phantom last month, terrible Bayer patterning & very poor dynamic range relative to a Viper.

YMMV

Stephen

[Rocket]

Hi,

I intended to use the F23 last week, until for 3 days rental with digiprimes I was quoted 25000 CHF approx $20,000.

Can you believe that? If that's not a typo, that's your Red One body right there, hmm lets see... three days rental for the F23 and digiprimes or my own Red One? Ummm, ahhh...

[Graeme Nattress]

Yes, RED is optically flow pass filtered. You can obviously have weaker or stronger low pass filtering. Cheaper cameras often have none, which can be bad. Some cameras try to get away with weaker low pass filtering, but that can cause bother if you use a higher quality lens. Aliassing is one of the nastiest camera artifacts and one of the hardest to remove in post. I'd always err on the side of caution with low pass filtering.

Graeme

[Michael Schrengohst]

Yep, adding those to the comparison table now. Thanks.

Im.thatoneguy, the F23 is still an HD camera, maybe I'm a bit too anal about this but I don't understand why manufacturers seem to think 1920 x 1080 in a 3 x 2/3" CCD configuration will do it. Sony out of them all needs to get with the program. We should send them some of those high ISO test shots from Red just to rub it in their noses.

"The F23, which supports 4:4:4 1920 x 1080 RGB imaging, is aimed at the top-end of movie-making, commercials and television production."

If that quote from the Sony website is true and they can't even engineer the camera around a 35mm sized sensor, or at least add a few extra pixels to give us a true 2K output, where does that put Red?

It'll be on the comparison table, but it's not going to fare so well.

The Phantom on the other hand is another story, 2400 x 1800 at 480 exposures per second, 1920 x 1080 at almost 1000. I am not sure if I would include it in the comparison though as it is quite a specialized camera, it kind of falls into a different catagory.

Don't worry, Sony, and the rest are all looking at what is on this board.

[Michael Schrengohst]

Can you believe that? If that's not a typo, that's your Red One body right there, hmm lets see... three days rental for the F23 and digiprimes or my own Red One? Ummm, ahhh...

Sure, they need to get that F23 paid for so they can buy some RED's!

[Phil Bates]

I am sure it (F23) has a large and growing following and is many people's #1 choice, but if Jim let them all play with Red, I'm sure they would have the same reaction as Rodney Charters....



I'm not so sure, because it's not always about about the camera. I talked with a top CineAlta guy and his concern is tech support, reliability, repairs and such. In his mind there is no track record for Red and therefore no legitimacy as of yet.

In "Red World" we all believe that image quality, price and other specs will win the day, and I believe it will too eventually. It's just that these issues are not always paramount with established producers. There's politics, agendas and Sony's momentum that will play a factor too. Just my HO.

Phil
www.artbeats.com

[Stephen Williams]

Can you believe that? If that's not a typo, that's your Red One body right there, hmm lets see... three days rental for the F23 and digiprimes or my own Red One? Ummm, ahhh...

Hi,

Thats not a typo. I wanted to shoot the first commercial in Europe with one, As Geoff Boyle was going to start his Rolex shoot 1 day before me, I went with a Viper package instead.

Stephen

[Scott Webster]

Stephen, why were you surprised by the day rate? I'm guessing the Genesis or D20 would be in the same range and based on your quote they would be looking at a 1% return on investment. Your day rate would of dropped if the rental house was operating a sliding scale such as 3 for 7 and your shoot had been longer.

The cost hasn't deterred investment with 3 cameras now available in Australia.

[Stephen Williams]

Stephen, why were you surprised by the day rate? I'm guessing the Genesis or D20 would be in the same range and based on your quote they would be looking at a 1% return on investment. Your day rate would of dropped if the rental house was operating a sliding scale such as 3 for 7 and your shoot had been longer.

The cost hasn't deterred investment with 3 cameras now available in Australia.

Hi,

As I would in effect be testing the camera whilst shooting, yes it did seem steep. I can get a Viper package for about 1/3 of that price which is what I did.

I understand the first commercial to use an F23 was for McDonald's in Australia!

Stephen

[Steven Parker]

I was able to see test footage of the F23: really nice stuff, especially the night exterior available light shoot on Hollywood Blvd. In-camera speed ramps during the shot (with auto gain exposure compensation) was very impressive as well.

DigiPrimes and DigiZooms are really strong lenses and the bigger rental houses in LA are quite excited about the F23/DigiPrimes combo.

The silliness about most of these high-end digital systems to me is that in a few years they'll be sub-par as 4K acqusisition really takes hold - while our future-proofed REDs and its tapeless workflow have been getting better and better and better... at a fraction of the cost:greedy:

The great thing is that there's more options than ever before: Phantom for extreme high-speed shooting, F23 for in-camera speed ramps, RED for everything else

[Rocket]

Guys, would you be willing to write a few paragraphs on your experiences with the F23, Viper and Phantom to publish on 4khub.com? Maybe some frame grabs? Maybe this should be a separate thread, but I don't know how much it has to do with Red. I'll post a thread on 4khub.com in the cameras forum for this instead.

Rich

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Sure, no bayer, but also, no oversampling. That means you need optical low pass filtering, which means you're not getting 1920x1080 4:4:4 out anyway. Far better to have the proper filtering at a higher resolution, and then you're oversampling if you want to go down to 1080 or 2k.

That's why I said "Bayer Debate". It hasn't been tainted by FUD.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Guys, would you be willing to write a few paragraphs on your experiences with the F23, Viper and Phantom to publish on 4khub.com? Maybe some frame grabs? Maybe this should be a separate thread, but I don't know how much it has to do with Red. I'll post a thread on 4khub.com in the cameras forum for this instead.

Rich

Rich, being that you are writing for 4khub, why would you include the F23 and Viper, neither of which are infact 4k cameras?

Talk RED, Dalsa, Phantom, or even that Russian 4k camera, the Kinoptic is it?

[Alexander Nikishin]

The great thing is that there's more options than ever before: Phantom for extreme high-speed shooting, F23 for in-camera speed ramps, RED for everything else

Instead of shooting on the F23 for speed ramps why not shoot in slo-mo with RED and ramp in post? :detective2:

[Rocket]

Rich, being that you are writing for 4khub, why would you include the F23 and Viper, neither of which are infact 4k cameras?

Talk RED, Dalsa, Phantom, or even that Russian 4k camera, the Kinoptic is it?

That's kind of the point of featuring them in a comparison, because they are all used for high end digital cinematography and it's hard to find all of them lined up next to each other to compare specs as well as pros and cons in use.

It's also for interest sake, if I kept things purely to 4K as the name of the site suggests, I'd be quite limited in the information I can publish.

I'm writing the feature to be a bit more contextual than just "Red is 4K and therefore is better for everything", so I want to put the specs comparison in the context of real life shooting scenarios. One of the biggest questions to ask is if a particular production is going to gain any value being shot in 4K, and if so if the value is purely aesthetic (i.e. it will never be finished above HD anyway) then it might not be worth it. In this case, the F23 or Viper might do more than a good job in the end.

So, in this particular case it's really about digital cinema cameras, not only 4K. It's definitely looking at the advantages of shooting 4K, but even of shooting 2K/HD with a camera that features a 35mm sized sensor, and thus 35mm depth of field.

In the end it all depends on intended use and intended audience. Given the Red's capabilities, I'd argue that everyone should shoot Red for everything, but that's not at all realistic so I want to put all the info and pros and cons on the table in one place. I also want to try and be balanced and objective, and get others involved with first hand experience.

If the argument for 4K aquisition comes out strong in the end, I want it to be in the numbers and facts, not because I'm twisting things in favour of 4K.

I feel I've taken this way off topic. I apologize. Anyway... so how 'bout that Rodney Charters, beyer patterns and low pass filters?

[Graeme Nattress]

4k makes for oversampled HD.

[Steven Parker]

Instead of shooting on the F23 for speed ramps why not shoot in slo-mo with RED and ramp in post? :detective2:

excellent idea - but not nearly as fun on set:biggrin:

[Jim Arthurs]

Leaving aside any debate about what the actual after-Bayer resolution of the 4K sensor is...

...I can't image any form of native 1920 by 1080 sensor block could EVER match it when downsampled... which is what I've been saying for the last 10 months about the RED... it's the ULTIMATE 2K/HD camera!

[Michael Brennan]

Leaving aside any debate about what the actual after-Bayer resolution of the 4K sensor is...

...I can't image any form of native 1920 by 1080 sensor block could EVER match it when downsampled... which is what I've been saying for the last 10 months about the RED... it's the ULTIMATE 2K/HD camera!


Yes Jim, the numbers shouldnt be comapred in isolation.
Sony has 6.3 million Viper has more pixels.
Bayer cameras process in camera to create more samples.
Also its possible to process an image by upconversion and pixel offset to create more pixels ect ect

In this discusison, the only thing that matters is the picture at the END of the production chain.

Mike Brennan

[Häakon]

I think the dynamic range of the F23 will be hard to beat by any camera for some time.

Stephen
Apparently, "some time" may be about a month...


"We're shooting RED side by side film. We scanned the film 4k and took both into the Baselight, compared them and then did a filmout of both. When we screened side by side, we literally could not tell the difference. In fact, most people picked the RED footage as film because of a greater dynamic range in the highlights than in the 5218. It's not enough to say it is the best digital image out there. The fact is, finally, we can intercut digital with film. It looked remarkably better than the filmed images. I thought I would never be able to say that"

Jon Farhat, VFX Supervisor, "Wanted".
Oh, and it won't cost $20,000 a week to rent. Yum.

Back to the subject of 24 (since that is what this topic is about, after all), did anything ever come of Rodney's testing? I was quite interested in seeing the footage he shot.

[laguun]

Hi,
I intended to use the F23 last week, until for 3 days rental with digiprimes I was quoted 25000 CHF approx $20,000.
I used a Viper instead. I think the dynamic range of the F23 will be hard to beat by any camera for some time.

totally overpriced rental prices for 3 days. nasty.

the F23 is a nice camera, but it is no real big advance over 750/790/900R/950/1500, especially when recording uncompressed instead of hdcam(sr).

In fact, the sensors the same as in the 1500, only prisms and software are modified, storing the sensor output via s-log in a more compacted gamma range into the 10bit of hdcam sr.

straight from the horses mouth, sony q&a powerpoint:
Is the F23 CCDs the same as those used on the HDC1500 camera?
The OHB prisms are capable of capturing a wider color gamut, and incorporate circuitry redesigned exclusively for F23. As a result, the F23 CCD's realize greater (extended) dynamic range and improved color performance (colorimery) over the HDC1500.
translation from sony marketing: yes, the sensors are, however prisms and software are different.
Its the same game as when sony tried to push the 900 being a 12bit camera: hdcam is 8bit, sr is 10bit. Ah yes, and the Sony Z1 we had also claimed 14bit processing btw.

The F23 sensors are still the classical sony 3*2.2MP CCD design, as in 750/900/950 etc - they have a slightly reduced noise floor, but nothing to write home about. Their resolution is slightly above 1080p as in all sony cameras.
once more quoting sony:
In terms of imager resolution, does the F23 deliver performance equivalent to Panavision's Genesis camera?
Assuming equal pixel size, a large CCD imager such as that in Panavision's Genesis camera, has a higher MTF (Modulation Transfer Function) than a smaller imager like the F23.
translation from sony marketing: no, f23 sensors have less spatial resolution



I think the dynamic range of the F23 will be hard to beat by any camera for some time.

I think you are mixing compressed gamma (as the f23 does exactly that) via s-log and dynamic range. s-log is basicly the same what you do using blackgamma and knee/dcc on the 750/900/950. Its no real dynamic range but compressing shadows and highlights in a more clever way into the 10bits of hdcam sr.

However, we didn´t test out the F23 besides some hands on at tradeshows.
I suppose we won´t in the foreseeable future - last time i spoke en detail with the sony folks about the F23 was when the camera was still a prototype back at ibc 06. If they made mayor advances since then, i wouldn´t know that and might be wrong. However i suppose i would have been contacted by our sony rep then.

Would the F23 exist in the same formfactor as 750/900R, a competetive pricing and would offer an integrated hdcam sr vcr, it might be an interesting upgrade for us.

Anyhow, I am one of the few folks here on the board who do like sony quite a bit.

Granted, their "squeeze the customer" policy, marketing-centric approach which prefers policy over technical facts here and there can be annoying... however, iy you know how handle that, be it the sony vcrs (we have 6 of them i think), their class 1 HD CRT monitors or colorviewfinders and, yes folks, even their hdcam cameras have been a tremendous asset for our work here since 2002 - and if there wouldn´t be red, we and many others would probably stick with them (and thomson gv). for a long time

[redcolorist]

I think the change will be rapid and cause very little termoil, except for the lab and tele cine houses. The writing is on the wall for them.
Aloha
-A
what are you going to do poi boy? color correct the stuff yourself?

[Poi Boy]

Yes, I will do my own color work. Creating a look is one of the steps I enjoy most.
Aloha
-A

[redcolorist]

Yes, I will do my own color work. Creating a look is one of the steps I enjoy most.
Aloha
-A

there aren't any telecine suites in hawaii are there? so it's probably a good thing you enjoy doing your own color work.

i think most DPs value what their colorist brings to the table and that's not going to go away with film.

sure the telecine may see less use, but I don't see "turmoil" for telecine houses that are capable of grading all formats.

[Poi Boy]

Talent will shine no matter what and great colorists will always be a part of the pie. they will be doing their work on workstations instead of telecine machines is what I'm getting at. For me, I just happen to like color grading so the new toys make it a great time to be making images.
Aloha
-A