ISO 500-4000 comparison... [Archive]

Brook Willard

07-14-2007, 10:12 PM

I've gone and locked the other threads. The threads contain valuable discussion and a handful of 100% crops. Definitely give them a read if you haven't already.

ISO 500 (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3233)
ISO 2000 (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3234)
ISO 4000 (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3210)

The ISO 8000 (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3215) and ISO 32000 (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3228) threads are still open.

IAN SUN

07-14-2007, 10:15 PM

all were shot with gain. They will be better (if you can imagine that) without gain.

8711 is the code for gain. Not sure why it isn't marked on ISO 4000. That was shot with gain... I'm sure of it. Everything shot today had gain.

Jim

Oh man my head is gonna blow :pinch:

Shawn Nelson

07-14-2007, 10:19 PM

A friend of mine who recently shot a movie on Super16 500T stock showed me a scene where he illuminated a room with only a bare lightbulb (100w household I believe) and it looked great. He pointed at me in smiling triumph "Look at that, digital will never do that"

Hehehe, I should figure out a way to score a bet on this situation...

So back to the pics, they look nice! But what is that line running through the ISO4000 one?

Brook Willard

07-14-2007, 10:21 PM

So Jim, what are the chances of seeing another one of these?

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/5_1184476890.jpg

:)

Jannard

07-14-2007, 10:23 PM

So Jim, what are the chances of seeing another one of these?

:)

Rodney Charters is shooting a new outside shot with our updated DSP and sensor settings (tonight). I think we can post a shot in the next day or so. I'll ask him for permission.

Jim

Brook Willard

07-14-2007, 10:25 PM

Great! It sounds like you guys are having a little too much fun over there right now...

Desert Rune

07-14-2007, 10:27 PM

Can we see a 2K sample of Jim drinking some milk, ala milkgirls at various ISOs?

JD Holloway

07-14-2007, 11:20 PM

Are you able to throw in a line resolution chart for the next batch with no gain full iso spread?

Jannard

07-14-2007, 11:33 PM

never enough...

Jim

Mark Thorpe

07-14-2007, 11:42 PM

Lesson 1 : So why did you decide to use gain if the lighting was sufficient to lock down @ 0dB with the ISO500 shot that is?

Cheers,
Mark

Justin Anderson

07-14-2007, 11:46 PM

Not sure why it isn't marked on ISO 4000. That was shot with gain... I'm sure of it. Everything shot today had gain.

Wait, I'm confused. I thought the higher ISO was gain.
Could someone explain to me?

Shawn Nelson

07-14-2007, 11:48 PM

never enough...

Jim

Come now Jim, be fair :-)

If you like what you get, you ask for more. This is life fundamentals 101.

If I have a great time one night and approach my wife the next night, I doubt she would sigh "never enough..."

Now if you posted these pictures and the board responded with...crickets...then that'd be sad!

:-)

Jannard

07-14-2007, 11:49 PM

Lesson 1 : So why did you decide to use gain if the lighting was sufficient to lock down @ 0dB with the ISO500 shot that is?

Cheers,
Mark

Right now, gain up takes an upload. So we just shot everything with gain today. Tomorrow we shoot normal.

Jim

Andrew Benz

07-14-2007, 11:49 PM

never enough...

Jim

Hey Now... all this new information is great for all of us on many levels. But I would like to say that it is also great to see you excited on a level that is nearing NAB eve. This also inspires us to ask you for just a little more... Jim, you and your Team have created more than one monster here...

Andrew

Casey Green

07-15-2007, 12:14 AM

I gotta say, it's great to analyze the images, look at all of the stats, compare this to that... truely amazing in it's own right, but I've also been getting excited by all of the creative doors that are opening.

The RED ONE may be able to shoot at midnight by pure starlight, but I'm sure there will be images it is capable of capturing in completely new ways we haven't even thought of yet. I've always been an advocate for improvisation and the idea of creating new looks for shots while on set... now THAT is really exciting to me as a Director.

Brian D. Goff

07-15-2007, 12:37 AM

No panik please. I am more than impressed by this camera and sensor. But I just pushed that chart image and in the 4000 ISO one there is a horizontal line, some "dead pixels". This is not realy a problem for me, just don't think not telling is any good either.

Priyesh P.

07-15-2007, 12:50 AM

Daniel Reichenbach

07-15-2007, 01:59 AM

These tests are awesome, thank you Jim, seems that RED has a 24 hours party, playing arround. If these sensor has arround 300 ASA without pushing, then we really need a lot of ND Filters. Hope there will be a possibility to have a knob for -gain so that we might go down to 50 ASA.

Alexander Nikishin

07-15-2007, 02:04 AM

Agreed, I'm also hoping to see very low ISO's thrown in there.

Brian D. Goff

07-15-2007, 02:09 AM

You can see that line without pushing. I wondered the same.
What is it?

The "dead pixels" don't realy concern me - god, at 4000Iso - any HDCam I've ever used usualy showed up with dead pixels in low light at 9db. Only the horizontal line could be an issue. I had a HDCam 750 show up with a "net" over the entire image in a low light 9db gain situation - nearly useless.

Stephen Williams

07-15-2007, 02:16 AM

Hope there will be a possibility to have a knob for -gain so that we might go down to 50 ASA.

Hi Daniel,

I have a feeling that wont work, as the s/n ratio would be rather high. 'Expose to the left' is not a good idea IMHO.

I used to have a ND 3.0 (10 stops) filter for timelapse, It could come in useful!

Stephen

Daniel Reichenbach

07-15-2007, 02:24 AM

Stephen Williams

07-15-2007, 02:41 AM

Hi Stephen
I know you're right, but I hate to have to many filters in front of a 35 (dark image and danger of lens mirroring). At least we don't have a mechanical shutter and I hope the EVF will be then clear enough (easier to pull focus).

Hi Daniel,

Some Cooke Zooms have a slot for a gelatine filter between the elements, that eliminates the 'mirroring' issue, Would be good if Red lenses did this too.

Stephen

Priyesh P.

07-15-2007, 03:12 AM

The "dead pixels" don't realy concern me - god, at 4000Iso - any HDCam I've ever used usualy showed up with dead pixels in low light at 9db. Only the horizontal line could be an issue. I had a HDCam 750 show up with a "net" over the entire image in a low light 9db gain situation - nearly useless.

If that line is a "resident defect" or byproduct of the CMOS in each camera then everything upwards iso 2000 is quite useless. (at least to me)

Brian D. Goff

07-15-2007, 03:28 AM

If that line is a "resident defect" or byproduct of the CMOS in each camera then everything upwards iso 2000 is quite useless. (at least to me)

Unless you're willing to do post work:construction:
I think any shot higher than 2000 ISO is a "last resort" thing to do anyway, and will require post work anyway to get a nice image - so then need for fixing a pixel or two, or such a line-thing isn't going to happen in everyday normal shooting conditions - I want my RED!!!!

Tim Lüdin

07-15-2007, 05:09 AM

I see it the same way as my other swiss brothers. Please try to put some realy low Iso funktions in it. Kinda like in the Canon 1DS Mk2. It goes down to 50 ASA and that's very good to work with.

The best thing would be somme ND Filter built in to the cam, like in normel ENG Cams. So we don't have to carry a box around and clean the filters every time we want to put them on the mattebox. This will slow us down in a big way when you do some ENG work.

I know it's a "filmstyle" camera. But that would be super handy. Maybe in red two?

So keep on rocking. You guys make my kay.

Tim

Brook Willard

07-15-2007, 05:18 AM

As was warned in the other threads... NDs should be a part of everybody's kit [regardless of the camera].

Stephen Williams

07-15-2007, 05:32 AM

As was warned in the other threads... NDs should be a part of everybody's kit [regardless of the camera].

Hi Brook,

Whilst that's true, historically digital (video) cameras have had build in ND filters of 2, 4 & 6 stops. I am sure companies such as P+S technic will be able to add the option if it's not available from the factory.

Stephen

Priyesh P.

07-15-2007, 06:17 AM

Unless you're willing to do post work:construction:
I think any shot higher than 2000 ISO is a "last resort" thing to do anyway, and will require post work anyway to get a nice image
yeah. that's right.

I want my RED!!!!
Amen! :-)

JD Holloway

07-15-2007, 06:24 AM

never enough...

Jim

Sorry Jim,

You have to forgive my impertinence.

Sitting here in my comfy chair, sipping my whiskey (a rather nice Manx elixir), completely divorced from the development team and its labours gives me a level of comfort...but also much frustration. I'm sure you know how much we all want to be testers.

Hopefully we wont test your patience too much.

Now about those iso/rez/noise graphs...

Joe Aurili

07-15-2007, 07:19 AM

Jim, can we see a shot a milk girl holding a res chart lit by a candle in front of a green screen? ;)

never enough...

Jim

Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock

07-15-2007, 07:54 AM

Jim, can we see a shot a milk girl holding a res chart lit by a candle in front of a green screen? ;)

But that´s exactly the opening shot of my feature film - acompanied by Igor Kxnydelky´s 6 hour long sonata for solo nose flute.

J. Bernard Vallon

07-15-2007, 10:44 AM

These are amazing, I can't wait to see some over-exposures too.

Adrian T.

07-15-2007, 10:48 AM

:ohmy: I'm speechless...

number6

07-15-2007, 11:25 AM

Just wondering... does this burst of ISO gain have anything to do with the new Kodak technology, in re: bayer filtering?

Graeme Nattress

07-15-2007, 11:33 AM

Nope, just us getting the best out of the Mysterium. The new Kodak pattern is, I think, unsuitable for high quality digital cinema use.

Graeme

number6

07-15-2007, 11:39 AM

Then, instead of RED knocking on Kodak's door, the reverse may become true. Congratulations on maximising the technology!

Graeme Nattress

07-15-2007, 11:52 AM

We know about the line. That's the first time we've seen it, so we're looking into it.

Graeme

Jannard

07-15-2007, 11:54 AM

I mean I understand that that at 4000 that its useless but still. If your doing high res...at 4K does that not run a risk of showing up? What if you are doing CG work and the line pops? is that line of what would look like about maybe 40 to 60 thouand dead pixes a concern.... I know I would not want my camera out of the box to have this issue. Jim what is your reaction and or is this really dead pixels? Will the production cameras have this line? Also if they do what is the point of showing the 4000? Just wondering here as its a big concern in some cases. This issue needs to be resolved in some fashion. The camera is awesome, but I just do not want to see it come with any kind of issue that can be picked at. Awesome camera keep up the fantastic work.

As always Thanks,
-Reactor 88 Studios

Read the posts... it is a bug in the DSP. We are on it. Cameras won't get sold with this. Questions like this make me wonder whether we should post work in progress. You are just going to have to assume we know that we have to fix stuff like this.

Jim

Kevin Halverson

07-15-2007, 11:57 AM

Read the posts... it is a bug in the DSP. We are on it. Cameras won't get sold with this. Questions like this make me wonder whether we should post work in progress. You are just going to have to assume we know that we have to fix stuff like this.

Jim

Please don't assume that everyone here is operating under the assumption that you (the collective you) don't know what they are doing and please don't shut down the information pipeline due to a few miscreants.

donatello b

07-15-2007, 11:58 AM

we all have to remember these are TEST shots from protoype camera's ..
if we see bugs that stand out, realize the RED team has seen them and is working on em ....

Daniel Reichenbach

07-15-2007, 12:07 PM

The tests are here to "crossing the line" guys. So don't stress the RED team on that. I'm absolutely shure that Jim won't deliver a camera with bugs like that. The RED Team has prooved that they are something special out in the market. So let them do there work.

Jannard

07-15-2007, 12:08 PM

Just talked to the engineers and the fix is in the next build.

Jim

Casey Green

07-15-2007, 12:09 PM

nice! that was quick. :)

number6

07-15-2007, 12:14 PM

Just talked to the engineers and the fix is in the next build.

Jim

Wow! That was fast.

Graeme Nattress

07-15-2007, 12:35 PM

We saw the line as soon as we'd taken the shots and got word to the engineers as Jim mentions above. However, we still thought you'd be as excited about the ISO performance as we were. We're proud of what our prototypes can achieve.

Owen James

07-15-2007, 12:40 PM

Allowing us to look in while you perform tests is a privilege we appreciate endlessly. This kind of openness is building unprecedented bonds of trust between the REDUSERS and the REDMAKERS. There are really "never enough" ways to say thanks.

Keith Nealy

07-15-2007, 12:41 PM

Graeme Nattress

07-15-2007, 12:41 PM

I think that's because at RED, we're filmmakers too!

Michael Brennan

07-15-2007, 12:43 PM

Most electronic camera manufacturers would deliver a camera with a problem like "the line" and not tell you about it.

Be thankful that we know about it and it isn't an issue, unless you are shooting black cats in a coal mine.

Anyway, I'll bet that every issue you see now is one less you'll have in your camera.

Still, I'll be surprised if there isn't the odd bug or three but if Jims open communication continues at least we will know about a schedule for fixing bugs.

Ask early adopters of cinelata kit how much they could have saved themselves and their clients, had Sony had been more "communicative" about problems.

Jims openness at posting frame grabs of a camera in development, at some risk to himself in giving ammo to the opposition, will ultimately save RED owners money.

Bravo Jim.

Mike Brennan

Adrian T.

07-15-2007, 12:50 PM

And I thought the line was a homage to the horizontal control wires in Sony Trinitron CRTs. :whistling:

Anyway, I'm glad you fixed it! Way to go! :tongue:

number6

07-15-2007, 01:12 PM

Jim,

Even my wife is impressed at the speed of your answer and that the teams response is "like white on rice".

You guys are amazing and in the encyclopedia under the word "dedicated"... is your picture.

Aloha,

Keith

Keith, hope your wife wasn't offended by my previous post. Have edited it to remove any offensive parts. Sometimes some of us forget that REDuser.net is not strictly a "good ole boys club." Again, apologies if required.

Keith Nealy

07-15-2007, 01:17 PM

Casey Green

07-15-2007, 01:18 PM

number6

07-15-2007, 01:25 PM

No worries...No offense taken.

But it reminds me of a joke about the guy who goes to a hooker and drops his pants.

She begins to laugh hysterically and says "who do you think you're going to please with that thing?"

He replys "Why me , of course."

Aloha,

Keith

Was thinking of that very joke, and that was going to be my comeback for any snickering response!

Now I'll get off this thread and let the pros get back to their business.

Keith Nealy

07-15-2007, 01:28 PM

Aloha Casey-

Sara says "Hi" and please come visit us here in Hawaii any time.

Glad to see you so active here with RED.

(For those of you reading this thread, Casey and used to work together many years ago back on the East Coast (USA).)

I'm sure are paths will cross again especially now that we have a RED connection. I hope to get mine delivered in December-January so maybe I can get you to "jump the puddle" to work on a feature.

Until then, see you online...

aloha,

Keith

JD Holloway

07-15-2007, 01:54 PM

And I thought the line was a homage to the horizontal control wires in Sony Trinitron CRTs.

Ya have to love it. 30000 for an 27" HD CRT and it flickers and has a line through it.

Warren Kommers

07-15-2007, 02:23 PM

It would be amazing if we could dial up the ASA in small increments rather than full stop gain jumps like on other digital cameras(+3,+6,+9). 1/4 of a stop increments or something would so beneficial.

For Example: Let's say you are out in a dark night exterior location with the usual mix of 60hz sources like sodium vapors and flourecents. You need a 1/3 stop more exposure to really see what you want to see. You don't want to commit to the noise of the usual full stop increase in gain(+3,+6,+9), you can't or don't want to open up on the lens for focus/DOF reasons, and you can't open the shutter past 180 because of those mixed 60hz sources flickering. Thus you just adjust your ASA/Gain a 1/3 of a stop instead of a full one. Is it impossible to have this level of control over the gain or would it be a difficult thing engineering wise?

Overall this is fantastic news. I've been longing for this kind or resolution and sensitivity for years. I hope this is it. 1000T Vision 2 never came. Although 5218 pushed 1 is impressive. I hope it looks as good as I suspect in motion.

Casey Green

07-15-2007, 02:39 PM

Aloha Casey-

Sara says "Hi" and please come visit us here in Hawaii any time.

Glad to see you so active here with RED.

(For those of you reading this thread, Casey and I used to work together many years ago back on the East Coast (USA).)

I'm sure are paths will cross again especially now that we have a RED connection. I hope to get mine delivered in December-January so maybe I can get you to "jump the puddle" to work on a feature.

Until then, see you online...

aloha,

Keith

Thanks Keith, sounds great. When you get your camera, send me a call sheet and I'll be there! :biggrin:

All the best,

Tom Lowe

07-15-2007, 02:42 PM

Pretty impressive! It looks like shooting ISO 1000-1500 could be a reality.

DLSRs crap out at that kind of ISO.

Warren Kommers

07-15-2007, 03:10 PM

Pretty impressive! It looks like shooting ISO 1000-1500 could be a reality.

DLSRs crap out at that kind of ISO.

That's what it looks like to me as well. Hence my thoughts for 1/4 stop control of ASA/gain. To get right in there between 1000 and 1500. At 2000 the color and noise appear to take a significant shift although it is hard to say much without seeing it in motion and at full res. The 5218/Red 2000 grey card split that Brooke posted is encouriging but looking at the Red 2000 frame by itself it looks like that is when you start taking a hit. All speculation at this point. If 2000 looked like 5218 pushed one or even 1.5 then it would be completely usable for most narrative applications. The color shifts could be corrected. However, Grain/Noise identify a 2D surface(the screen or monitor) thus making the implied viewing experince less 3D. Which is what we usually want to imply to the audience 90% of the time we make a movie. To see through the 2D screen and into the world of the story.

Graeme Nattress

07-15-2007, 03:25 PM

I think RGB gain is in 10th stop increments. It certainly is in the REDCINE decode, which is what we're doing.

Remember, this is all without noise reduction, which you could always apply if you want.

Priyesh P.

07-15-2007, 04:13 PM

I think the only mistake you (red) did was not to mention it (the line) right at this thread's start. So people, including me had to wonder about it. I only was thinking: ok, that's some artifact that comes up at high gain values or tremendous amounts of pushing. With "resident defect" I meant issues like those we could only arrange ourselves with CCD's, like vertical smear and the likes. "Defect" wasn't meant like it was some manufacturing issue that was just left there while knowing about it.
Sorry for any misunderstandings.

Warren Kommers

07-15-2007, 04:18 PM

That's great news Graeme. That reminds me I wanted to ask you about that. Say we are exposing at 2000 asa. What would I be seeing on tha monitor in realtime on set if the gain is added in REDCINE later. I hope 2000 still. Or is there some amount REDCINE onboard in the camera.

Is there going to be noise reduction in REDCINE? I know you know all about it. Reducing noise without losing too much sharpness seems to be the criteria for a good NR.

Graeme Nattress

07-15-2007, 04:25 PM

The RGB monitoring pathway runs on the same image processing code as REDCINE, so you'd dial in +3.0EV if you rate the camera at 250 but are wanting to see it at 2000. This gets stored in the metadata.

Warren Kommers

07-15-2007, 04:31 PM

Wow. So would you be able to dial it back later if you wanted to becasue the image is still recorded natively at 250 asa?

Casey Green

07-15-2007, 05:42 PM

Exactly. BTW, there's a good thread going on right now explaining more on this very topic:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3238

Warren Kommers

07-15-2007, 05:52 PM

Yes. I guess I know all this having shot with the Viper a couple times and the way LUTs work. It is still hard to mentally change the workflow in my brain to this mode after being so used to comitting to a look. Which there is something to be said for. Although control/detail wise this is fantastic and exciting. However, it sure takes a whole hell of a lot of power away from the DP as being master of the image. Especially on set, everyone had their opinion. Oh and be sure to write the color correction in your contract.

Casey Green

07-15-2007, 06:08 PM

heheh - yeah really. Well, the way I see it, all of this gets worked out well in advance of shooting anyway (on-set workflow) - so I don't see that being too much of an issue. I'm sure there may be exceptions, but typically, I wouldn't think it would cause too many problems.

If anything, I would think it opens up opportunities for the DP while in the field to try new ideas out as they come. Gonna be interesting for sure. :biggrin:

Steve Gibby

07-15-2007, 06:19 PM

There are a large variety of production genres besides narrative cinema that RED One will be used on. The biggest percentage of those other genres entail non-union work, utilizing medium to small crews where the DP/cinematographer is often also the editor - thus the same person acquiring the RAW images in those genres/crew situations, will also be editing the images. RED One shooting 4k RC RAW could be an excellent application for these scenarios.

The very tip of the RED One usage iceberg is large crew, union, narrative cinema, but the other 9/10 of the iceberg beneath the water is all the other cine-style and EFP style medium/small crew, non-union productions that could be adopting RED One. With RED One, 4k RC RAW production could penetrate those genres and productions rather quickly for the same reason DSLRs have penetrated still photography rapidly - shoot RAW at acquisition, then "develop" and color correct afterwards with software. The RED RC RAW workflow closely parallels that of its close relative - the DSLR.

I Bloom

07-15-2007, 06:30 PM

I think any shot higher than 2000 ISO is a "last resort" thing to do anyway

I disagree, these images have convinced me that RED is the camera of exposed night skies and cityscapes. I'll be underlighting my forgrounds and cranking the gain, trading noise for a view of the world as I think it truly needs to be seen. The better it looks at 2000 or 4000 ISO the happier I'll be.

IBloom

Casey Green

07-15-2007, 06:32 PM

Excellent point, Gibby. I'm in total agreement. In fact, I was going to mention something along the same lines (perhaps not as articulately as you put it), :) but I got caught up in writing from one point of view.

It's funny, sometimes it seems so difficult to remain objective when trying to tackle any particular topic regarding the RED's capabilities. First I'll think I am discussing an issue that effects only the big-budget large-crewed union shows, and then I realize that this also can effect an Indy or EFP or ENG or......

It definitely takes some discipline to try and remain objective when imagining the feature set of the RED ONE in use on productions of all types.

The fact that the Camera is capable to cover such a wide spectrum is inevitably going to help us all receive a better product in the end. :)

Steve Gibby

07-15-2007, 06:46 PM

Very true Casey...

Narrative cinema is high-profile and gets a lot of media attention - and it certainly get a lot of attention on RED User. But the fact remains that RED One is a scalable, flexible, adaptable system that can be used in a wide variety of cine style and EFP style production genres that have nothing to do with narrative cinema - and it will be. In one of my recent magazine articles I listed about 17 potential genres for use of RED One, with recommended resolutions. I produce/direct/ shoot in all of those genres - in fact, narrative cinema is about the only production genre that RED One can be used in that I haven't worked in.

Side note: Through the mid-'80's when I lived in Manhattan Beach, I was similtaneously working as a director/cinematographer for non-union national television programs, while at the same time I was also a member of SAG and AFTRA working as an actor in commercials and daytime television. Working in front of the lens really helped me in my work behind the lens, and vice versa. Sometime in the reasonable near future I'll produce/direct/shoot in narrative cinema.

Casey Green

07-15-2007, 07:11 PM

response to sidenote: wow Steve, you and I seem to have a lot in common as far as variety goes. I am a member of the local 695 and primarily have now been working on Features and Episodic TV for the past 5 years doing Video Coordinating. But in between gigs, I occasionally am doing broadcast and corporate work... (directing, technical directing, editing, graphic design, FX work, etc.)

Also, I am a member of SAG and have done my share of work in front of the Camera. I too believe that this will help me as a well rounded Director as I pursue that dream. Looking forward to meeting you at LART :)

Anyway, back on topic (sort of)... yes I think that having more options re: ISO and RAW w/metadata is going to provide for some interesting new options during production.

I Bloom

07-15-2007, 07:11 PM

So here is a question for Jim and the team. Will we be able to smoothly rack the sensitivity of the chip with say an external controller or will the settings be incremental changes from a menu of say a third of a stop?

IBloom

Matthew Verkler

07-15-2007, 11:52 PM

Comment on "the line": the thing I love about post is that it's only a mistake if it goes out the door. Red is not out the door yet, so there are no mistakes. We basically have a front row seat (or maybe fifth row seat) to the creation process, so we can see evolution in progress. The tweaking continues. Thankfully we're beyond the offline!

And as for once it's "out the door", every show I've made has things I want to improve, but I had to finish them at some point. Red will continue to evolve, unlike the shows that we have to release. And the results of that evolution can be applied to the camera that we already own. Can't beat that!

About ASA, I want the ability to increase the sensitivity to what some would call an unusable level; it may not be appropriate for some things, but I want to be able to decide that for myself. This weekend is blowing my mind! And to think I was starting to have unpure thoughts about the HPX500 and it's sensitivity . . . . .

Corrado Silveri

07-15-2007, 11:57 PM

Amazing, Jim.
Thanks a lot.

Just a simple question. Can you please post a 30/60 frame clip of a fraction of these boards? Just to see the "movement" of the noise...

Corrado Silveri

07-16-2007, 12:05 AM

Sorry,
just realized there are a already full thread about this request...

Álex Montoya

07-16-2007, 02:03 AM

Me thinks 4000 is usable in a LOT of circumstances. We may be not watching 4K here, but it it is very nice 720P, which is the resolution of the Varicam.

Ralph Oshiro

07-16-2007, 03:10 AM

HOLY FUCKING SHIT! And I was real f-cking worried about light sensitivity at 4K! Am I the only one pissing my pants here over this?!?!?! AWESOME work, RED TEAM!!! I've been on a self-imposed, "NO REDUSER" diet for a few weeks, and look what happens! I think the skeptics will be eating their hats AND their shorts once RED ships!

Ralph Oshiro

07-16-2007, 03:24 AM

I disagree, these images have convinced me that RED is the camera of exposed night skies and cityscapes. I'll be underlighting my forgrounds and cranking the gain, trading noise for a view of the world as I think it truly needs to be seen. The better it looks at 2000 or 4000 ISO the happier I'll be.

EXACTLY, my thoughts as well . . . Although, I'll probably never need to go above ISO1000. My DSR450 sees in the frickkin' dark, and it's only an f/11 @ 2,000 lux camera. I can shoot entire night exteriors with just exisiting mercury vapor street lights and a Kamio!

I Bloom

07-16-2007, 05:43 AM

EXACTLY, my thoughts as well . . . Although, I'll probably never need to go above ISO1000. My DSR450 sees in the frickkin' dark, and it's only an f/11 @ 2,000 lux camera. I can shoot entire night exteriors with just exisiting mercury vapor street lights and a Kamio!

Well I guess it depends on what lenses and what your depth of field needs be. One of my favorite parts of Dion Beebe's work on Viper was taking advantage of gain in order to show that orange glow on the clouds and small amounts of detail in difficult places like looking out across an ocean at night. There are some beautiful places that your eye can see but cinematography has thus far had too ignore. My hope is that with cameras like this and maybe some interframe noise reduction, these things become commonplace. I really think that seeing detail in dark wide landscapes will be the defining look of this new era of cinematography.

Which brings up an important question, and that is, what about REDCODE and gain. Obviously the more noise the worse the compression but where are the limits. Will shooting with high gain definitely be an optical port thing.

IBloom

Michael Schrengohst

07-16-2007, 06:11 AM

Frank Weeks

07-16-2007, 06:29 AM

The future has arrived. Unbelievable.

Mike Prevette

07-16-2007, 01:13 PM

Jim, can you or someone on the team comment about the color fluctuations between the frames? i loaded the into pshop and noticed a slight shift in the grey values as the ISO changed. Also with some extreme levels crunching that row of pixels athe the top of the 4000 frame, became evident in all of them. what is that? bad scan row? timing issue?

_mike

Graeme Nattress

07-16-2007, 01:22 PM

We've not calibrated over the full exposure range yet. Once that's done, you should not notice shifts. We know about the row of pixels - fix is in the works now.

Graeme

Gavin Greenwalt

07-16-2007, 01:34 PM

There also appeared to be a magenta/green gradient in the 32,000 iso. Is that just a small lens anomaly magnified or a DSP characteristic which can be compensated for?

Graeme Nattress

07-16-2007, 01:38 PM

When I do the calibration, I'll be looking at that in more detail. However, with a gain of 7 stops, it does highlight everything in the entire chain.....

Graeme

Jannard

07-16-2007, 01:39 PM

There also appeared to be a magenta/green gradient in the 32,000 iso. Is that just a small lens anomaly magnified or a DSP characteristic which can be compensated for?

Correcting for anomalies at ISO 32000 is not the highest priority on our list... but yes, it can be corrected for. All the posts were made to show the elasticity of our image and to have a bit of fun. None are perfect, but we haven't come near to finishing the DSP.

We heard that one of our competitors recently said that RED was a noisy ISO 250 camera. We kinda wanted to poke a bit back at them. :-)

Jim

GlennChan

07-16-2007, 02:18 PM

Well whatever image you post, someone is going to point out even the tiniest flaws in them. Please keep them coming... the big picture is that it looks awesome so far. If other cameras are held to the same scrutiny, it is very likely that Red comes out ahead (most cameras will produce terrible images at 32,000 ISO).

Graeme Nattress

07-16-2007, 02:25 PM

Thanks Glenn - I think you're right about the kind of scrutiny our images get. Looking at the big picture though, I'm happy where we are today. I had no idea 32k ISO could look even like an image that you can recognise!

Graeme

Antoine Fabi

07-16-2007, 02:34 PM

It is simply INCREDIBLE. period.

Nobody has ever dreamed about such high resolution AND quality AND ISO capabilities...At THE SAME TIME !!!!!

Cheers !

Gavin Greenwalt

07-16-2007, 04:25 PM

Correcting for anomalies at ISO 32000 is not the highest priority on our list... but yes, it can be corrected for.

Jim

Well if it's just a near invisible lens characteristic then the only correction necessary would be to use a higher gain instead of boosting it in post. Did all of the tests (4,8,32k iso) use the same gain setting?

Zach Hilton

07-17-2007, 03:18 PM

Correcting for anomalies at ISO 32000 is not the highest priority on our list... but yes, it can be corrected for. All the posts were made to show the elasticity of our image and to have a bit of fun. None are perfect, but we haven't come near to finishing the DSP.

We heard that one of our competitors recently said that RED was a noisy ISO 250 camera. We kinda wanted to poke a bit back at them. :-)

Jim

And Poke you did! I would call it more like a deathly blow or a killing jab though.

Chris Pickle

07-17-2007, 05:30 PM

Häakon

07-17-2007, 05:36 PM

I still don't understand the differene between gain and ISO as it relates to digital. Isn't a higher ISO just gain? Is there an adjustment for both? I always thought putting an ISO function on a digital camera was just to be a "familiar" feature vs calling it gain.

Cheers,
Chris
I admit, I've been a bit confused with this as well. I'm equally confused as to why - with such great sensitivity levels - they'd even consider using gain in the first place (especially when these are images they know will be scrutinized to death). Jim said something relating to it in another post:

Right now, gain up takes an upload. So we just shot everything with gain today. Tomorrow we shoot normal.

Jim
...but what "gain takes an upload" means or how it's different from the ISO rating is beyond me. Perhaps someone could shed some more light on this subject? (har, har...) :)

PaulClements

07-17-2007, 05:44 PM

Taken from Bobdiaz on dvxuser

"The Gain Switch can be thought of as a volume control for the video signal. When you play music on the stereo and the music comes to a soft quiet spot, you turn up the volume to make the music louder. In the same way, Gain increases the voltage level in the video signal making the image look brighter. Voltage Gain is calculated as follows:

Gain (in dB) = 20 x LOG(Voltage Out / Voltage In)

To save everyone a lot of trouble, just remember, a +6dB Gain is equal to a 2x increase in the signal. A +12dB Gain is equal to 2 x 2 or 4x increase in the signal. A +18dB is a 2 x 2 x 2 or 8x increase in the signal. When we express Gain as dB, every +6dB increase represents another doubling the signal. Another way to think of it as F Stops. If I open the lens from F8 to F5.6 (1 F Stop), I double the light. If I open the lens from F8 to F4 (2 F Stops), it's 2 x 2 or 4x increase in light. You could say it's like this:

+6dB = Adds 1 F Stop of light
+12dB = Adds 2 F Stops of light
+18dB = Adds 3 F Stops of light

If +6dB is like adding an F Stop, +3dB is like adding 1/2 an F Stop of light and +2dB is like adding 1/3 an F Stop."

I presume Jim was refering to "gain takes an upload" as meaning he has no switch on the camera, rather he has to upload it via CF or USB and recalibrate the sensor with extra gain.

I also presume that Jim and Co. created the normal shots without the use of gain, using ND's, f22, etc to create the ISO ratings rather than modifying the settings of the sensor.

My presumptions have been known to be wrong btw lol :)

Graeme Nattress

07-17-2007, 05:45 PM

Chris Pickle

07-17-2007, 05:49 PM

There's two things - analogue sensor gain ahead of the A-to-D, and digital gain, which occurs post digitisation. Both are useful.

What we're doing in these tests is to show that if you under expose, and gain up in post (ie digital gain) what results you get.

Graeme

So when you mention ISO, you are talking about gain in post? Does the Red have the ability to gain between the sensor and wrting the file? Plus Gain/ISO as it converts from Raw to whatever? Maybe I'm asking the wrong question because of my lack of understanding?

Thanks,
Chris

Graeme Nattress

07-17-2007, 05:53 PM

We have ability to do both types of gain. What these tests are are "equivalent ISO".

Graeme

zak forrest

07-17-2007, 05:53 PM

Chris Pickle

07-17-2007, 05:56 PM

We have ability to do both types of gain. What these tests are are "equivalent ISO".

Graeme

Thanks.

I suppose the issue with using gain between the sensor and writing the file is that you are stuck with it. Whereas, if you push in post you can try various levels.

Chris

Steve Gibby

07-17-2007, 06:00 PM

I own a Canon DR XTi (D400) and I've shot a ton of 10 megapixel RAW pics with it. It is an excellent camera for the price, and the results are great...but I assure you IMO frames from RED One should blow the XTi's frames away. They're reasonably close in technology...but they'll be far apart in results IMO.

Häakon

07-17-2007, 06:00 PM

Does this mean that the shots posted at high ISOs "with full gain" were using both kinds of gain - the "full gain" that the camera applied, as well as the digital gain applied to the image in post to bring it out of the dark?

All this talk of gain is making my head spin. I think I'm just going to expose correctly the first time. :)

PaulClements

07-17-2007, 06:01 PM

semi off topic but:

i just got a canon digital rebel xti, and im really happy with the way everything looks. if red looked like this, i would be more than happy to shoot my movie with it. but i know that red probably blows the hell out of the canon digital rebel xti.. can anyone shine a light on this for me? like how much canon xti ass does red kick, exactly...

The Canon digital rebel xti (400D) is about the best comparitive digital SLR sensor available, size and pixel wise at least.

The following shows the sensor figures for both the RedOne and the Canon:

RedOne (@35mm 4k RedCode)
Sensor Physical size: 22.2mm x 12.49mm
Pixel Size: 5.5µm
Pixels: 4096 x 2304
Megapixels: 9.5

Canon EOS 400D Digital Rebel XTi:
Sensor Physical size: 22.2 x 14.8mm
Pixel Size: 5.7µm
Pixels: 3888 x 2592
Megapixels: 10.1

If you take a picture on the Canon then crop it by 405 pixels in height (Although it'll be slightly lower resolution) it ought to give you the same field of view as that lens would when attached to the RedOne.

As for colour and light only Graeme and co with hands on could inform in any way shape or form at this point.

Häakon

07-17-2007, 06:03 PM

but I assure you IMO frames from RED One should blow the XTi's frames away. Reasonable close in technology...but far apart in results IMO.
That's actually an interesting theory, Steve. Since both cameras are ~12MP it would be very interesting to do a side-by-side and see how the results differ. After all, many people are calling RED a "dSLR on steroids." Perhaps we can add some XTi test shots to the LART; I'll add that suggestion to the list.

PaulClements

07-17-2007, 06:05 PM

Out of interest here's the figures for the Nikon D40x:

Nikon D40x:
Sensor Physical size: 23.6 x 15.8 mm
Pixel Size: 5.89µm
Pixels: 3872 x 2592
Megapixels: 10.1

If you took pictures on the D40x you'd need to crop them by -230 px width wise and -543 px height wise in order to see the same field of view as the attached lens would on the RedOne.

PaulClements

07-17-2007, 06:08 PM

I was studying sensor sizes on comparitive DSLR's the other day by the way which is why I worked these out... hope they're correct now!

The formula to check how much you need to crop an image on your camera is as follows (You will need to know the sensor's physical size and amount of pixels horizontally and vertically, your sensor must also be bigger than 22.2mm x 12.49mm, but DSLR's typically are):

Height
Ph = Pixel Height
Sh = Sensor Height
(Ph/Sh)x(Sh-22.2)=X

Width
Pw = Pixel Width
Sw = Sensor Width
(Pw/Sw)x(Sw-12.49)=X

X being the amount to crop either horizontally or vertically.

Canon sensor info can be found halfway down this page (http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Canon-Lenses/Field-of-View-Crop-Factor.aspx).

Gunleik Groven

07-17-2007, 06:08 PM

PaulClements

07-17-2007, 06:13 PM

Stick some Canon L series on the red and compare, infact compare some Cooke S4's with the Canon L series primes. It'd be interesting to see if the Cooke's were much greater in all honesty.

Steve Gibby

07-17-2007, 06:19 PM

That's actually an interesting theory, Steve. Since both cameras are ~12MP it would be very interesting to do a side-by-side and see how the results differ. After all, many people are calling RED a "dSLR on steroids." Perhaps we can add some XTi test shots to the LART; I'll add that suggestion to the list.

I believe Evin has been using his Nikon D2X as a comparision frame CMOS sensor DSLR - it's 12 megapixel. The XTi is 10 megapixel. In a lot of it's technology, RED One is a "DSLR on steroids", no doubt. Sensor type, sensor size, and pixel size are one thing, but the rest of the processing capability that RED One has should make a significant difference in the final product frames IMO. Also, other things like cine glass, etc. If it was a D2X frame with the same exact Nikkor lens used on a RED One, now that would be a more interesting comparison. Again, because of the capabilities of the RED One processing in-camera + REDCINE, my inclination would be to say that the RED One frame would be a fair amount better than the D2X frame. A RED One/Birger/Canon 10-22 frame compared to an XTi/Canon 10-22 frame, lets say, would IMO still find the RED One frame significantly better.

I shot all the magazine pics for my RED at NAB, Part 1 article of the Boris with the RED 18-50 CF zoom with an XTi. In that, I was shooting a $24k camera package (RED) with a $1.5k package (XTi + lens).

I love the XTi...it's my "go anywhere" DSLR nowdays.

Häakon

07-17-2007, 06:34 PM

Would be nice to see what 10k$ worth of glass would do to a rebel's image... -;)

Or did I misintertpret where you plan to put the PL lenses? -;)

I Certainly hope the glass only will be a big advantage for the Red.

Cheers!
Gunleik
Touché, although there are users interested in using the Canon and/or Nikon mounts on RED (and I believe that will be a big part of the LART as well, since Evin is directing). It would also be worth noting just for properties of dynamic range, et. al more than just overall sharpness, abberation, etc.

PaulClements

07-17-2007, 06:36 PM

Gibby do you anticipate people using a RedOne with Canon or Nikon lenses for shooting sport for still photography?

The biggest problem I see with it is the lack of autofocus.

Steve Gibby

07-17-2007, 06:49 PM

Gibby do you anticipate people using a RedOne with Canon or Nikon lenses for shooting sport for still photography?

The biggest problem I see with it is the lack of autofocus.

Hmmm...good question Paul. I don't have an answer for that. I guess time will tell. I've shot tons of sports for television and also stills for magazines, and I'm getting one of the first RED One cameras, so I'll definitely be shooting some action sports with #8 right after I get it. We don't know the final specs on RED One, but I'd hazzard a guess that still frames grabbed from motion sequences shot on RED One should be real good. There will still be advantages of using a dedicated DSLR for photography of sports still photos though. I use various Canon DSLR's for my sports still photography, and the L series lenses with autofocus are tough to beat for nailing fast action sports. Some guys swear by Nikon though. I still have my original Nikon F that I bought in Hong Kong in 1969, and occasionally I still shoot film with it...still works great.

It may only be as short as about 6 weeks now before the first RED One cameras ship and we start getting a flood of info from early shooters, to build upon what is being currently learned from the excellent beta testing of RED, and after that, the LART sessions. Gonna be a fun Autumn for sure!

Häakon

07-17-2007, 06:59 PM

I'd hazzard a guess that still frames grabbed from motion sequences shot on RED One should be real good.
Besides the autofocus, one reason that still cameras are better for sports is the shutter speed you can set to freeze the action. Of course, you'll be able to do this with RED, too, but the resulting video is going to be hyper-jerky (think Gladiator or Saving Private Ryan, but several times more severe). That's why I'm interested to see just how much better the RED picture will actually be over a solid dSLR; the difference in price alone may not be very worth it if you're thinking of using it primarily for pulling sports grabs.

Steve Gibby

07-17-2007, 07:18 PM

I don't think anyone would be buying a RED One just to function as a dedicated "DSLR", but if the still frames grabbed for motion sequences are good, then they could be nice for use as stills on web sites, certain mag articles, etc. It would just be a pleasant bonus item by an already highly utilitarian camera. But yes, for serious specialty still photography I'll continue to use a dedicated DSLR.

Häakon

07-17-2007, 07:25 PM

I don't think anyone would be buying a RED One just to function as a dedicated "DSLR"
It's true, but you never know... some newspapers are now sending out journalists with HDV cameras and pulling grabs from them for headline photos in their papers (http://digicade.blogspot.com/2006/07/newspaper-video-journalism-part-i.html)! With all of this convergence, if a RED frame is really that much superior than one from a dSLR, there's certainly a case to be made for using one. The cool thing is that we have options - if you know that you're going to use your footage for grabs, you can crank up the shutter speed and go to town. You just probably won't want to watch the resulting video as a series of moving pictures... it'll be one or the other.

Steve Gibby

07-17-2007, 07:30 PM

Yup...gonna be fun seein' what the possibilities are!

zak forrest

07-17-2007, 07:41 PM

i kind of knew all this already, i was hoping someone would chime in with how the xti rolls off the highlights, or how the dynamic range compares, or the noise levels, stuff like that...

but seroiusly if the red didnt even match the xti in terms of quality (i know it will be better though) i would still love the hell out of it

Keith Nealy

07-17-2007, 10:46 PM

Some guys swear by Nikon though. I still have my original Nikon F that I bought in Hong Kong in 1969, and occasionally I still shoot film with it...still works great.

Was that you at the other counter in Kowloon? :w00t:

I bought mine there the same year. I also bought a 21/4' Rolliflex in a RollieMarine U/W housing custom built by Hans Hass. Still have it.

Comment about RED shooting stills for sports: As I spent over ten years on the running and triathlon circuit shooting for major mags with my Nikons, I wonder about how the rolling shutter will effect sports stills?

Also, will we be able to get the shutter speeds we need?

But most of all how long will the camera/record cycle be?

Me thinks it will not be setup for sports shooting. maybe an occasional landscape but sports, I think not.

But the ninjas may surprise me. :ph34r:

One never knows, do one?

aloha,

Keith

Gavin Greenwalt

07-18-2007, 01:27 AM

Keith @4k you can shoot 30 frames a second for at least 6 minutes (CF Card) nonstop.

I would assume you can get at least 1/250th shutter. Which would have very very minimal rolling shutter artifacts.

If you just wanted stills I would bet you could shoot 30 frames per second @ 1/1000th shutter for 6 minutes non stop. Then it would just be a matter of grabbing the exact frame you want later. Of course... without autofocus... I would rather just grab a Canon DSLR. Might not get the exact moment I want, but at least it would be in focus.

zak forrest

07-21-2007, 08:41 AM

well, thank you boys....

still haven't recieved a proper answer to my query though

Sanjin Jukic

07-21-2007, 09:12 AM

Thanks Jim.

Very good tests.

Keith Nealy

07-21-2007, 12:08 PM

im.thatoneguy, I'm an old school schooter that never had auto-focus or autoexposure.

I've shot professional sports manually for so many years I think autofocus and autoexposure would get in the way.

That's why RED is going to seem so natural to me.

With video, I am used to a rocker switch for focus control, however, but still manual focus.

As I (and you) said earlier, a DSLR would still be a better choice for stills because it is designed for it.

RED will work - in a pinch - but it might be awkward I think.