Trade-in Epic X for Epic FF35

[david farland]

How much will a 2nd hand Epic X be?

You may or may not want to upgrade depending on.....
- your Epic X use and s35 lens investment.
- Epic X -> Epic FF35 upgrade deals from Red.
- Epic X sensor upgrade potential.
- Latency of Epic ff35 release.
- availability of FF35 pro-cine lenses.
- and of course your R1 serial number.

Trade off may become....sell Epic X for Epic ff35 for additional 2 stops and less resolution (5.4 vs 6.0 um pixels) or buy FF35 lenses as well as Epic ff35.

Anyway, you may want to sell your Epic X (body only) to a 3rd party for cash for an Epic ff35.
Or if your Epic ff35 number is up, you could sell the old Epic X accessories for close to new and buy accessories with your Epic ff35.

Either way, will there be a market for second hand Epic Xs? How much...$20K?

Thoughts?
Dave,

[Mark B.]

Sensor upgrades (affordable ones < $5000) would make a big difference to the value of the Epic-X.

Specs and pricing are subject to change, but pretending that the current camera prices and specs are stable - my guess is that you could sell a used Epic-X brain for about $12k. The reason for the low price is that the Scarlet FF35 is going to be for sale at $10k. It has a better, larger chip. It would have the new factory warranty, and it could handle slow motion for short bursts. Epic-X has faster frame rates, and produces a less compressed file, but those features might not be enough to sway people to pay lots of money for your camera compared to buying the FF35 Scarlet.

Again though, all the prices and specs are subject to change, so coming up with guesstimates at this point would be mostly useless. I'm hoping Jim will lower the price of the Epic cameras before the shipping date arrives, to close the large price gap between the Epic and Scarlet cameras.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

I'm hoping Jim will lower the price of the Epic cameras before the shipping date arrives, to close the large price gap between the Epic and Scarlet cameras.

that would kill the RED ONE market..

we have a smaller sensor... but we have variable frame rates

[Mark B.]

that would kill the RED ONE market..

we have a smaller sensor... but we have variable frame rates

Red One's can be upgraded to Epic, so if Epic gets cheaper then that's better for Red One owners (and everyone else too).

[Fredrik Callinggard]

My opinion is that with the announcements of Scarlet/ Epic X, FF35, 645, 617 Jim and the gang created a hype, but they also created a knowledge of the shelf life for our future cameras.

It doesn't matter if they keep their deadlines or not. It will still be seen as it has 1 year. So IMO RED cameras will have the same life as DSLR cameras and/ or (god forgive) computers. As soon as serial number doesn't mean a spot in the queue for an upgrade path the cameras will be worth a lot less.

[david farland]

Epic X resale value of $10K. That is such an interesting thought!!

- For $50K we got a 4K camera with accessories.
- For say $20K more we can upgrade the R1 to another Red camera (Epic X) with 10% more latitude, 10% more resolution and 3X fps.
- For yet another $20K (33K-10K) we can upgrade the Epic X to an FF35 with 20% more latitude, 10% less resolution (w/o FF35 lenses).

D

[Michael Hastings]

Sensor upgrades (affordable ones < $5000) would make a big difference to the value of the Epic-X.

Specs and pricing are subject to change, but pretending that the current camera prices and specs are stable - my guess is that you could sell a used Epic-X brain for about $12k. The reason for the low price is that the Scarlet FF35 is going to be for sale at $10k. It has a better, larger chip. It would have the new factory warranty, and it could handle slow motion for short bursts. Epic-X has faster frame rates, and produces a less compressed file, but those features might not be enough to sway people to pay lots of money for your camera compared to buying the FF35 Scarlet.

Again though, all the prices and specs are subject to change, so coming up with guesstimates at this point would be mostly useless. I'm hoping Jim will lower the price of the Epic cameras before the shipping date arrives, to close the large price gap between the Epic and Scarlet cameras.

To figure this out you have to look at two aspects, the technology and the business.

1) Technology: The REDONE is essentially a prototype or at least first gen camera. REDONE is excellent, game changing, and very fairly priced but still has issues. Its physical/electronic architecture compared to the next gen Epics is more like a desktop computer to a modern DSLR - modular circuit card/backplane vs. the more robust highly integrated architecture of the typical DSLR. Consequently, it is a bit too power hungry, and a bit too quirky for the mainstream of the industry to fully embrace (and to be fair this is basically true in one way or another with Dalso, Viper, Arri, etc. electronic cameras too) given the huge budgets and reputations at stake. And over the long term the current REDONE architecture in a rough and tumble portable application is probably inherently more prone to failures.

I think RED's ultimate goal - and they have laid the foundation - is to make the Epic-X the workhorse standard of the industry. With ASICs it will be smaller, lighter, more robust and much lower power, and it should be more solid in general and over the long term. Increased reliability combined with the current well developed camera firmware, color science, and codecs plus true 4K (after debayer) resolution, and tremendous options for S35 lenses, should mean there is no technical OR practical reason the Epics shouldn't be a comfortable choice for anyone considering electronic acquisition. So I think RED's goal is to get EVERY REDONE traded in.

As far as the pricing difference between the cameras, there probably isn't that much actual hard cost increase between the Scarlet S35 and Epic-X and as pointed out the technical differences may not be huge. But they are there and they are real. There isn't a HUGE quality difference between say a Sony EX3 and the F23, but it's there and you have to pay a big multiplier in dollars to get that last bit of extra performance.

$28K for an uncompromised camera just isn't that much for most professional users - less than $600/mo lease payment - and many of us paid much more than that for our Sony Betacams. The 17500 full credit on our REDONE's makes it more attractive and should get the vast majority of REDONE's traded in. Another reason for the high price on Epic-X is that there is no reason RED should lose money on the exchange and once Epic and Scarlet are out, because of technological, competitive, support, and other reasons, it won't make sense for RED to try to resell or recoup anything (other than spares inventory) from the traded in REDONEs. They certainly won't make normal manufacturing margings on the EpicXs at the 10K tradein but they will probably cover all of their direct costs. And I think RED will try to hold the price level on the Epics. Even though it will leave a large gap between Scarlet and Epic pricing - which could allow competitors to come in a year or so down the line with similar technology at the midrange price point (say 17.5) by then RED will have sold thousands of Epics and if all goes as expected it will be tough to overcome as it will be seen as the standard of the industry.

Now on to the big question:
So, Jim when can I have my Epic-X?

(sing with me to the tune of Money for Nothing/I want my MTV...) "I ..want.. my.. Ep..ic..X..!

[Tom Lowe]

Red has stated categorically that there will be no sensor upgrades in DSMC brains, because the sensor is tied to the processing components inside the brain.

In the end, I imagine that most pros will want to work on FF35 Monstro. I know all the arguments about lenses, but I also know that once people really get a taste of shooting full-frame motion with that badass new sensor, they are going to figure out ways to address the lens situation.

IMO, it will make sense for a lot of R1 owners to wait for FF35 Epic. If there are hundreds of Epic-X brains suddenly on the market at the same tiime, there could be a glut. Then again, if you are working a lot and renting out your camera a lot, then you could easily afford to get Epic-X, sell it, and trade up to FF35. It will depend on personal situations.

[David Mullen ASC]

I believe only the Monstro sensor will be 14-bit (the others are 12-bit) which may or may not promise greater dynamic range, which is the main reason I'm interested in it. But I could be wrong.

[Tom Lowe]

Seeing as how it's a next-gen sensor, you will probably see improved ISO/ASA ratings with Monstro as well, which is hugely important to many of us.

[david farland]

Yeah...Red have said the Monstro with it's 6 micron pixels will be 2+ stops over the Mysterium X.
They also mentioned the adc would be 16bit...unless they've countered that since.
Hope we'll get another stop (or so) out of the sensor also.

$10K trade-in for a Epic X body, looks a little weak because if you paid $17K for a R1, added $10K to get the 28K Epic X (plus say $7K accessories), you have paid $20K for the Epic X body.
I'd hope (particularly early on) people may want either a second or first Epic X body only.
Also be dependant on whether you could drive the Epic X with only R1 accessories....anyone?
D

[Michael Hastings]

I believe only the Monstro sensor will be 14-bit (the others are 12-bit) which may or may not promise greater dynamic range, which is the main reason I'm interested in it. But I could be wrong.

With that sensor, do you see yourself still shooting in an S35 format, or the larger full frame format with even shallower depth of field/critical focus issues?

[Stephen Williams]

$10K trade-in for a Epic X body, looks a little weak because if you paid $17K for a R1, added $10K to get the 28K Epic X (plus say $7K accessories), you have paid $20K for the Epic X body.


Hi keep in mind that the RED one should have paid for itself by the time you upgrade to Epic X and that should be recouped before you upgrade again. If it's not the case then the case for ownership for you is not very strong. Seems like a $10k gift to me

[Roberto B]

maybe some people here think the ownership as a basic business.. like rentals or 2-days shooting commercials business.. for some who's used to think any truly indy movie project on at least bimonthly basis.. it is not.

[David Mullen ASC]

With that sensor, do you see yourself still shooting in an S35 format, or the larger full frame format with even shallower depth of field/critical focus issues?

I don't know yet, but you have the option of shooting either S35 of FF35 on the Monstro sensor.

[Tim Whitcomb]

Yeah...Red have said the Monstro with it's 6 micron pixels will be 2+ stops over the Mysterium X.
They also mentioned the adc would be 16bit...unless they've countered that since.
Hope we'll get another stop (or so) out of the sensor also.

$10K trade-in for a Epic X body, looks a little weak because if you paid $17K for a R1, added $10K to get the 28K Epic X (plus say $7K accessories), you have paid $20K for the Epic X body.
I'd hope (particularly early on) people may want either a second or first Epic X body only.
Also be dependant on whether you could drive the Epic X with only R1 accessories....anyone?
D

Well you can always spend $150 to $250K for a SONY 1080P camera :001_tt2:

[david farland]

ho hum..here we go. If you read the subject line "trade in Epic-X for Epic FF35" it suggests buying an Epic FF35 after the Epic X.
What will it cost to have an Epic X for the 4-5months until the Epic FF35 is available ...>$20,000?
That's $4,000 - $5,000 per month!!...something to think about!
So the thread is intended to weigh up business case/ROI scenarios in your particular business...not some twitter about gifts/sony cameras.
Dave,

[Tom Lowe]

For all we know, it could be a year between Epic X and Monstro. No one really knows.

[david farland]

sure...we can only go on their published dates and they're affirmed the first new camera release date.
Be an interesting poll of who will buy an Epic X then an Epic FF35, as soon as they can.

[Stephen Williams]

maybe some people here think the ownership as a basic business.. like rentals or 2-days shooting commercials business.. for some who's used to think any truly indy movie project on at least bimonthly basis.. it is not.

Probably the reasons that productions have traditionally rented equipment.

[Roberto B]

ehehehehe on that bimonthly basis you're right.. you're missing something thou.. wrote at least.. when a truly indy movie project goes on a several-monthly basis.. to succeed.

red is the difference between to be or not to be.. truly indy.

[Stephen Pruitt]

Agreed, Roberto. . .

We shot our first feature over 3+ months. We are planning on shooting our second one over 4 months. Rentals just don't work in that environment.

Stephen

[lediana]

credit auto (http://creditauto.net/)

:driving:

[Jarred Land]

This is an interesting thread to read how some of you are dealing with the old and new business models of dealing with amortization and rejuvenation/upgrade.

The modular foundation is really something that we just touched on with the RED ONE ( upgradable sensor, media modules and mounts, ) and have taken to a whole new level with the DSMC cameras, I think will be interesting to watch over the next couple years how this plays into everyone's accounting.

If there are any Medium Format guys here you can see how the Mamiya RZ67 has lived a very long life, and is still used extensively in the fashion world, mostly due to the fact that it was developed almost 30 years ago to be somewhat modular.. even today almost every digital back company still makes an adapter to keep that camera in service with the newest technology.... on a body that really hasn't changed over three decades.

It is a bit of an contradiction now a-days with the current 18 month technological revolution cycles to anticipate holding onto a piece of digital kit for longer than a couple years, but hopefully we have done our job and created a solid foundation to bring back some of that investment longevity with the DSMC family.

Who really knows though.. There is nothing permanent except change. :)

[Sanjin Jukic]

This is an interesting thread to read how some of you are dealing with the old and new business models of dealing with amortization and rejuvenation/upgrade.

The modular foundation is really something that we just touched on with the RED ONE ( upgradable sensor, media modules and mounts, ) and have taken to a whole new level with the DSMC cameras, I think will be interesting to watch over the next couple years how this plays into everyone's accounting.

If there are any Medium Format guys here you can see how the Mamiya RZ67 has lived a very long life, and is still used extensively in the fashion world, mostly due to the fact that it was developed almost 30 years ago to be somewhat modular.. even today almost every digital back company still makes an adapter to keep that camera in service with the newest technology.... on a body that really hasn't changed over three decades.

It is a bit of an contradiction now a-days with the current 18 month technological revolution cycles to anticipate holding onto a piece of digital kit for longer than a couple years, but hopefully we have done our job and created a solid foundation to bring back some of that investment longevity with the DSMC family.

Who really knows though.. There is nothing permanent except change. :)

As I wrote long ago RED1 has a perfect body.

I would just need always a new sensor upgrade the same as Mamiya RZ67 can have a brand new digital back.

Also I'm say it again because I have got a perfect mount for the most of new sensor upgrade sizes (unfortunately it is still in a pirate stage).

[Van Din]

Speak by yourself. We need a Scarlet body as soon as possible.
________
Honda h4 transmission specifications (http://www.honda-wiki.org/wiki/Honda_H4_transmission)

[Matt Uhry]

As I wrote long ago RED1 has a perfect body.


Totally disagree. Looking forward to DSMC's big time. No nostalgia about the RED1's wonky physical form.

This is not to be confused with my total enthusiasm for the images that you can make with it. I love the sensor, PL lenses, and redcode. They all rock. those will be in the DSMC, updated, with a better designed body - whats not to like about that ?

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Jarred Land]

No nostalgia about the RED1's wonky physical form.

www.mattuhry.com

Love it or Hate it, we are very proud of RED1 and what it has accomplished. It is by all means not perfect, but IMHO It really isn't as bad as some people make it out to be.. to each his own though.

[Christian Edwards]

Love it or Hate it, we are very proud of RED1 and what it has accomplished. It is by all means not perfect, but IMHO It really isn't as bad as some people make it out to be.. to each his own though.
“A man who uses his hands is a laborer. One who uses his hands and mind is a craftsman. He who uses his hands, and his mind, and his heart is an artist.”

[J. Bernard Vallon]

“A man who uses his hands is a laborer. One who uses his hands and mind is a craftsman. He who uses his hands, and his mind, and his heart is an artist.”

A man who uses his tongue...is a politician.

[Christian Edwards]

A man who uses his tongue...is a politician.
Ha hadnt heard that before ,
quote seemed rather beffiting, eluding towards the more objective view of the Redone body as a creation

[Tim Whitcomb]

ho hum..here we go. If you read the subject line "trade in Epic-X for Epic FF35" it suggests buying an Epic FF35 after the Epic X.
What will it cost to have an Epic X for the 4-5months until the Epic FF35 is available ...>$20,000?
That's $4,000 - $5,000 per month!!...something to think about!
So the thread is intended to weigh up business case/ROI scenarios in your particular business...not some twitter about gifts/sony cameras.
Dave,

Just seemed to be a lot of whining in the thread over thousands of dollars... NOT TENS OF THOUSANDS =

I don't understand your point frankly, but to me, the point of modularity is to be able to keep your acks and simply swap out brains.

YES, RED confirmed you can use RED ONE Acks with EPIC/SCARLETT.

But with modularity, we plan on having one of EVERY Brain and 2 EPIC Systems.

Plus 2 Scarlett Systems 1 S35 and 1 Fixed. I see no point in going Scarlett F35 as for the money differences versus performance gains of the PRO SERIES EPIC. I dont get it.

I think many who believe the insane rental rates that were had for RED ONE
will return on Epic are mistaken, as RED has also grown infrastructure, learned a ton and will ship faster.

With the exception of Mark P who has 6 and 7 and will obviously have some lead time... Id say that for the first 50 to 100 and hopefully the first 105 :)

Not to mention films and TV shows are being shot successfully on RED ONE
and making money... so the extra 2 stops may be awesome for guys like you and David Mullen etc, but to guys like me...

Im more worried about having a great story to match the technology capturing it... much much more.

best

[Roberto B]

A man who uses his tongue...is a politician.
a man who uses his keyboard and mouse.. is a geek.

[Roberto B]

I see no point in going Scarlett F35 as for the money differences versus performance gains of the PRO SERIES EPIC. I dont get it.
the majority majority majority coming from the convergence dont get your mind.

[Tim Whitcomb]

horses for courses...

back to the thread title.

David, do you believe shooting S35 (cropped sensor) with the FF35 and S35 glass will be superior to just shooting S35 with the S35 brain?

I thought I read there were going to be limitations to that... ones that exceed any DR gains?

Because, if indeed, that S35 cropped on a monstro will be superior to S35 full sensor,
then I think Epic resale value will suffer for sure.

As this means essentially one would be getting two great cameras for the price of one with FF35... i.e one that takes both S35 and FF35 glass...and works better than having separate brains.

[Roberto B]

horses for courses...
ehehehehe you bet.. :001_smile:

- the gang

[Dominic Jones]

do you believe shooting S35 (cropped sensor) with the FF35 and S35 glass will be superior to just shooting S35 with the S35 brain?

I thought I read there were going to be limitations to that... ones that exceed any DR gains?
Well, as far as I see it, the only downside to shooting S35 on the FF Epic vs the S35 Epic is resolution - on the S35 you get a resolution of ~4.5K (for an actual S35-sized portion of the sensor) or 5K (for X35 or whatever we're now calling the Red "S35" chip size) vs 4K and ~4.4K respectively on the FF Epic.

In compensation for that resolution loss you get around 2 stops more DR and higher framerate capability.

I would suggest that unless you are finishing in 4K there is no contest - the extra latitude and (presumably) lower noise of the FF system will win out over the extra resolution for 2K and HD finishes without a doubt.

What will be interesting to see is whether when finishing at 4K the extra resolution for a "true" 4K frame (which assuming similar stats to the Red One's bayer detail when measured will need a 5K originating resolution) will outweigh the other visual factors of the FF system...

In part the answer to that will be subject and budget dependent - if you've got the budget and/or time and/or opportunity to keep the contrast ratio within the lower dynamic range of the M-X chips, then you might well favour the S35 camera for 4K finishes. If, however, you are exceeding the range of the sensor (or stretching it close to it's limits) on a significant amount of setups, then I'm guessing the FF's higher DR will outweigh the slight lack of post-debayer resolution.

That's my thinking, at least. Me? I'm holding out for the FF Epic...

Dom.

[Shawn Nelson]

My prediction is a large price drop on the FF35 brain. $33k/$9750 for just the brain? Yeah, I don't see that holding for long (maybe still on release, but just watch).

When Canon releases a FF RAW 24fps that doesnt line skip for <$3k, I'm betting Red will have to fight the price wars. They can take the Apple approach of "we're better so you can pay more", but they can't be 400%->1000% more.

But we'll see, i'm just the bird on Jim's shoulder saying "make it cheaper Jim!" :-)

[Stephen Williams]

My prediction is a large price drop on the FF35 brain. $33k/$9750 for just the brain? Yeah, I don't see that holding for long (maybe still on release, but just watch).

When Canon releases a FF RAW 24fps that doesnt line skip for <$3k, I'm betting Red will have to fight the price wars. They can take the Apple approach of "we're better so you can pay more", but they can't be 400%->1000% more.

But we'll see, i'm just the bird on Jim's shoulder saying "make it cheaper Jim!" :-)

Hi Shawn,

I think Canon will have an economy of scale advantage over Red. Remember Red is giving a credit of $17,500 so that has to be factored into the Epic price structure, Scarlet only has a small allowance built in to the price.

Stephen

[Tim Whitcomb]

My prediction is a large price drop on the FF35 brain. $33k/$9750 for just the brain? Yeah, I don't see that holding for long (maybe still on release, but just watch).

When Canon releases a FF RAW 24fps that doesnt line skip for <$3k, I'm betting Red will have to fight the price wars. They can take the Apple approach of "we're better so you can pay more", but they can't be 400%->1000% more.

But we'll see, i'm just the bird on Jim's shoulder saying "make it cheaper Jim!" :-)

=Good point, but Im thinking the caveat "doesnt line skip" could be a bigger hurdle than we know. And I remember Jim saying (trying to find the thread) that nobody was as close to RED in compression tech and FPS... thats obviously a HUGE difference and cost. Not to mention cooling systems...
the latter is what has my interest as shooting 250 FPS is going to generate some incredible heat issues.

I am now wishing their was a trade in allowance on the FF35 EPIC

[Dominic Jones]

I am now wishing their was a trade in allowance on the FF35 EPIC
There is - the $17,500 rebate on the Red One body can be applied to any brain in the Epic line.

You do lose out a little when trading in for the FF35 Epic vs the Epic X, however, in that you don't get the additional free accessories (which is a fairly major disadvantage, but probably won't outweigh the loss you'd make from selling your Epix X brain and buying an FF35 one when they're released) and you'll have to wait a little longer to upgrade, probably taking a hit on rental cost and also demand for your Red One in the meantime...

In my thinking it's a fairly finely balanced gamble on whether to go for the Epic X package and sell on the brain to finance the FF35, or whether to wait for the FF35 in the first place. I'm leaning toward the latter, but I guess I'll have to decide when the Epic X starts shipping...

Either way, you're going to get a hell of a camera for a bloody good price!

Cheers,
Dom.

[Andrew Walker]

=Good point, but Im thinking the caveat "doesnt line skip" could be a bigger hurdle than we know. And I remember Jim saying (trying to find the thread) that nobody was as close to RED in compression tech and FPS... thats obviously a HUGE difference and cost. Not to mention cooling systems...
the latter is what has my interest as shooting 250 FPS is going to generate some incredible heat issues.

I am now wishing their was a trade in allowance on the FF35 EPIC

If I am mistaken the trade-in works towards any Epic brain...at least the 5K and 6K FF35 brains. Has someone heard something different.

[J. Bernard Vallon]

Canon wont be able to make a 24fps raw camera for <$3k anytime soon. Remember when JJ floated the idea of a Raw Recorder for Epic/Scarlet? Asking for a $100k deposit from 10 people? Record speeds are the killer. Throughput costs epic dollars. You just cant push data through a big pipe for cheap.

Thats the real reason epic costs so much more than scarlet, its not processors, its datarates.

Your investment will be safe until you can cheaply write 250MB/s to a 64 GB CF card. When that happens, buy more glass.

[Michael Hastings]

Canon wont be able to make a 24fps raw camera for <$3k anytime soon. Remember when JJ floated the idea of a Raw Recorder for Epic/Scarlet?

When people say Canon will make a 24fps "raw" camera, I think they mean a "compressed raw" similar to redcode rather than H.264 or other compressed color formats.

I'm eagerly waiting my Epic-X and counting on Jim and team to give it enough extra oomph and pro-level features to make me happy with that extra expense for awhile.

But it would be foolish to ignore the expertise in all of the relevant areas that Canon brings to the table i.e. lenses, sensors, capture, ASICs, large scale manufacturing, etc. - simply because we are fans of what RED has done so far and promised for the future.

BTW someone made an interesting point to me recently which was that the Epics specify REDCODE 225 but don't explicitly state that they will ALSO do lower data rates like the current REDCODE36 and that it may be because although it takes greater data transfer, it actually takes LESS processing power to do less compression (ala H.264/Mpeg4 vs. Mpeg2). Has anything been stated that we will ALSO get the higher compression codecs? Don't get me wrong I like that we can get closer to the "raw" raw but it is also nice to have the option - or are we going to be stuck with extreme data rates for field recording and/or field editing?

[Lauri Kettunen]

REDCODE 225 but don't explicitly state that they will ALSO do lower data rates like the current REDCODE36 and that it may be because although it takes greater data transfer, it actually takes LESS processing power to do less compression (ala H.264/Mpeg4 vs. Mpeg2).

We'll see, but not sure whether the efficiency of a framewise wavelet compression should be compared to H.264, Mpeg4, and Mpeg2, which include temporal compression.

If the market segments overlap, all camera manufactures whose equipment are sold by dealers will be pricewise in a kind of uphill battle compared to RED.

Excluding 16 stop dynamic range, for my needs --wildlife stuff and HD productions-- it sounds Epic-X will already contain everything needed. Consequently I have some faith, or is it wishful thinking, that will not need to change Epic-X to another camera for some time. Or, even if so Epic-X should be a great 2nd camera for along time.

[J. Bernard Vallon]

People will be very upset of the option to shoot RC36 isnt available. The whole point of why red was so cool in the first place was you can do all this and still record 5 minutes to an 8GB CF card on your shoulder.

RC225 is something like 30 sec/8GB card. no dice.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

I don't Know where i̇s the datarate of redcode 225 confirmed. It could also mean redcoder nr2. Size 25 MB.

[Dominic Jones]

No-one (outside of Red) knows the actual datarates of the new compression types - but we do know that the numbers are not an explicit reference to MB/s.

It has also been stated here that lower bitrate modes will be available on the Epic systems - I can't remember where or when, I'm afraid, but it has definitely been discussed, no need to worry!

Cheers,
Dom.

[Rocco Schult]

I just like to have a different upgrade path. Some don't like the batteries, others never use CF , some don't like the sensor and would like to have FF35.
I bought the base production pack just because of the "package deal" and still the crappy bottom plate and dovetail are unused, because they are what they are.
Choice is what matters, and the current upgrade forces resale.

[Shawn Nelson]

After thinking on this further I'd like to take back what I said, especially since I poorly worded it in the first place. I think it will take Canon years to catch up to even where the Red One is (if they even have the brains to go there), much less go to the Epic level. That and form factor, alternate lens choices (which you know Canon won't do) and more. So while I still hope Red FF35 gets cheaper (for obvious selfish reasons), I dont think a $3k DSLR will be even a speck on its horizon.

[David Collard]

My two cents...
If the Epic X extends its latitude significantly where it approaches the FF35, then I'm sold on the Epic X for that reason. The other reason is the fact that 3-D film recording may be thrust upon us in a big way, so we need to be thinking about other things beside resolution. The FF35 sounds the best on paper, but I believe the "look" of the sensor's image becomes the key factor once resolution hits the 5K bayer image threshold.

[Dominic Jones]

If the Epic X extends its latitude significantly where it approaches the FF35, then I'm sold on the Epic X for that reason.
And that, my friend, is where the rubber meets the road, because it won't. We have been consistently told that the Mysterium-X sensor (in the Epic X and below) will have ~1 stop more DR than the R1, whilst the Monstro sensor (in the FF models and above) will have ~2 stops more than that, for around 3 stops more latitude than the R1...

Decisions, decisions...

Dom.

[Humberto Rivera]

I was just thinking, it’s really hard to decide between the two, but looking at the fowling factors in theFF35; there is the dynamic range of 13 stops over the Red One of 10 stops, the pixel size of 6.0 microns, there is the matter of 16 bits over the 10 bits for the Red One.

Comparing the S35 to the FF35 there is the matter of the sensor 30mm X 15mm for the S35, and for the FF 35 36mm X 24mm. In a 2 to 1 configuration of the S35 to the FF35 you pick up 1.2 xs in size. But it does not stop there, you can also cover the 1.85 area by adding the height, and the 16:9 by adding even more height, never surpassing the 24mm height of the FF35.

Now you would have to forget about all the cine lenses, but there are some good lenses available. First there are the Leica Summilux M 21mm, M24mm, and M35mm lenses all at f1.4, and the M50mm f0.95 all with latest technologies applied. On the other side of the scale in mm are the Arri Compact Primes. There is also the Red zoom lens with the Metadata build in. Of course there is also what is yet to come at NAB 2010.

It’s not the 22 stops of dynamic range you get with film, but 13 stops and a larger sensor, that should account for something.

Anyhow I’m still thinking of which way to go.

Humberto Rivera

[Shawn Nelson]

22 stops of DR on film? I presume that's a joke. I've heard somewhere in the 10-13 stop range for well exposed 35mm, much less once the full process takes its toll

[Michael Hastings]

My two cents...
If the Epic X extends its latitude significantly where it approaches the FF35, then I'm sold on the Epic X for that reason. The other reason is the fact that 3-D film recording may be thrust upon us in a big way, so we need to be thinking about other things beside resolution. The FF35 sounds the best on paper, but I believe the "look" of the sensor's image becomes the key factor once resolution hits the 5K bayer image threshold.


And that, my friend, is where the rubber meets the road, because it won't. We have been consistently told that the Mysterium-X sensor (in the Epic X and below) will have ~1 stop more DR than the R1, whilst the Monstro sensor (in the FF models and above) will have ~2 stops more than that, for around 3 stops more latitude than the R1...

Decisions, decisions...

Dom.

But that information is many months old and since Jim has told us that many new things are in the works and that they will not be announcing the latest developments (presumably to avoid tipping off the competition)

With that, and all of the extra development time we may see the Mysterium-X move closer to Monstro performance. With the encroachment of Canon and the other manufacturers I believe it will be in RED's best interest to make the Epic-X all it can be - in order to make it truly the workhorse of the industry.