Nikon or Canon better for RED?

[Keith Nealy]

I am thinking about upgrading my still gear with a good DSLR.

I have used Nikon for 35 years and have several bodies, motors, and lenses.

In terms of the usage for RED, ie lenses, etc. Are Nikon lenses going to be as useful as Canon?

I know in general it is a Ford vs. Chevy comparison.

I've heard talk of Birger mounts for Canon lenses and I get sense that more accessories may be Canon friendly.

If that is going to be the case I may switch.

Any thoughts would be helpful, thanks.

aloha,

Keith

[Clayton Harper]

http://www.stickergirl.com/images/BBonChevy.jpg

[Barry Gregg]

I have been shooting with a Canon 5d dslr for the past year. The Canon digital camera are awesome! As are the L lenses. I hope that Birger can build a mount for the Red that will allow the use of the EOS lenses with Red. The Canon RAW files allow for an amazing amount of manipulation in Photoshop and I can only hope that the Red Raw will be the same for motion files.

[J. Bernard Vallon]

Birger is also making a nikon lens, so they're still tied on that front. Evin has said that nikon makes the best wide lenses, which are going to be important on a digital sensor, which sometimes have problems with vignetting.


Here is my read on the two. (This is my subjective opinion based on 10 years being primarily a Nikon shooter but having shot my share of Canon as well)

Sharpness: Depends on the lenses, both have gems and duds.
Build: Nikon AI & AIS best, Nikon Pro AF, Canon L series and FD tied.
Color: Nikon-Red/Cyan bias, Canon Green/Magenta bias (This is very subtle)
Contrast: Nikon-punchy, Canon-medium to soft
Strengths:
Nikon- Wides, DX Zooms (The Canon 10-22 is a contender here though), MF/AF compatability, exotics (8mm FE/300 f2)
Canon- IS super teles, tilt/shift lenses, In lens AF motors (AFS Nikkors now have this too)
Weaknesses:
Nikon- Focus wrong direction
Canon- Lack of aperture ring (True for DX/G Nikkors as well)

I personally just liked the "look" of Nikkors better, but I'll never say Canon doesn't make good lenses.

i'm trying to find his list of top 10 optics houses...I think its a few pages later...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1122&page=4

[Shawn Nelson]

Birger is also making a nikon lens, so they're still tied on that front. Evin has said that nikon makes the best wide lenses, which are going to be important on a digital sensor, which sometimes have problems with vignetting.

i'm trying to find his list of top 10 optics houses...I think its a few pages later...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1122&page=4

BUT...the Red is of a similar size to a normal DSLR and thus will have a crop factor of 1.6x, thus mitigating any advantages of the Nikon at the wide angles since you won't be touching the wider parts like you would on a full frame or 35 still.

As for the original post, whether Nikons or Canon are better will hinge on how good the Birger mount is. If it's as good as I think/hope it will, then Canon wins (at least until the Nikon mount is released), but if it falls short, then Nikons are better because you can go all manual and use the $500 mount from Red.

[chuck colburn]

http://www.stickergirl.com/images/BBonChevy.jpg

Hahahahaha!

Lord#0

My kinda man. lol

[Jeff Kilgroe]

NIKON rules!

...And so does my Ford.

[Keith Nealy]

Thanks, that indeed was a great thread, but it seems the final answer is not in yet.

[chuck colburn]

It does not matter what mount is on the camera (short of a device that has seperate optical componets in it) the lens be it Canon or Nikon or whatever is only going to be as good as the lens you mount on it.

[Tonaci Tran]

BUT...the Red is of a similar size to a normal DSLR and thus will have a crop factor of 1.6x, thus mitigating any advantages of the Nikon at the wide angles since you won't be touching the wider parts like you would on a full frame or 35 still.

As for the original post, whether Nikons or Canon are better will hinge on how good the Birger mount is. If it's as good as I think/hope it will, then Canon wins (at least until the Nikon mount is released), but if it falls short, then Nikons are better because you can go all manual and use the $500 mount from Red.

Blair previously brought up a question pertaining to the 1.6x cropfactor.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=50037&postcount=16

"Quote:
Originally Posted by Blair S. Paulsen
Point of information: to my knowledge there is roughly a 1.6 conversion factor with the Mysterium chip @4K. Evin or one of the other lens mavens posted a chart about 3 months ago if you want some details. I have been assuming that a 15mm lens on the RedOne will feel like a 23mm"

The conversion factor is only if your frame of reference is 8-perf 35mm still camera photography. If you are used to shooting in 35mm cine, like Super-35, then you are already familiar with the field of views of an 18mm, etc. because the RED sensor is about the same size as the Super-35 cine frame.
__________________" David Mullen, ASC

[Brook Willard]

Be sure to check the FAQ thread [linked in my signature] for an in-depth explanation of FOV, DOF and "crop" or "conversion" factors.

[donatello b]

IMO if one was really "better" then one would fade away ?
either lens will get you a good image .. many will prefer one over the other ..
back in 1973 i bought a 39.95 400mm f5.6 lens and it must be the best because i've never have replaced it .. now there might be 400mm lens that can do test charts better and if you magnify image 400% you might see weird things BUT hey the normal size image looks great - these newer lens are a bit too sharp for my taste ...
remember in the end we don't stare for minutes at one still frame - the bottom line is how it looks at 24fps or 29.97 or 23.976, or 30fps or xxxx.........

[Keith Nealy]

Thanks for all your help guys,

I found a ton of useful infomation in other threads.

[Keith Nealy]

The question wasn't really about quality of lenses it was about if one lens system will be favored over the other by third party sources like Birger.

The question of Canon having internal focus motors and Nikon not having them may be an issue for some future applications like autofocus.

If one system "talked" to RED via protocols better than the other and became a favorite - that might be a deciding issue.

I wouldn't dream of getting into a lense quality conversation. I'll leave that to Evin and the "Glass Geeks."

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I think either Nikon or Canon DSLR systems will compliment RED just fine. Birger is making both Canon and Nikon mounts for RED... The Canon mount will be available first.

I don't think either system truly has an advantage, both are very similar and have their strengths and weaknesses. I wouldn't start selling off any Nikon gear to buy Canon stuff or vice versa.

[John Wee]

What about light loss ? I remember using the 50mm f1.8 on my HVX with the redrock indoors, and it wasnt fun having to add all those extra lights.

[Michael Schrengohst]

Ah Ha! The crux of the biscuit! Using Nikon or Canon lenses on the RED is
more akin to using it on your DSLR. Of course a still camera lens will not
have as much control as a true Cine Lens. But when you stick a lens on a
device that filters the light and then has to go though a fixed mount lens
is just well - as you say - "it wasn't fun having to add all those extra lights".

I tried the Redrock and the Brevis on the HVX and unless you were
shooting outdoors in bright sunlight or could afford to hire a grip
truck with 2K HMI's it just was not that practical. I have seen some
great work done with those devices but it takes skill and practice
and a sense of knowing what the image was going to look like.

But jumping to the RED will be like driving a Ferrari flat-out vs. your
Japanese import.

[Paris Remillard]

the light loss is caused by the ground glass that is used in the redrock and all of the other small format to 35mm lens adapters on which the 35mm sized image is resolved. It has nothing to do with the lenses themselves. Since the red sensor is cine 35mm sized (or nikon dx/canon 30d-ish) the 35mm lenses resolve right on the sensor as they would in the dslrs or on the film plane of motion picture cameras. So, no light loss.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

You won't have light loss issues like that with RED and a proper lens mount. The Nikon and Canon mounts from RED and from Birger actually replace the front mounting point on the camera. There is no "adapter" or glass or optics involved. So a Nikon or Canon lens mounted on RED with the proper lens mount will still exhibit the properties of its rated f-stop. A Nikkor 50mm f1.2 AIS is going to be quite a bit faster than a PL mount RED 50mm prime at f2.8 / T3.

Lighting with the HVX isn't that fun at all, especially when you have a 35mm adapter on there soaking up another 1 to 1.5 stops.

Edit> I took too long to type and post this. Two others beat me to the response.

[John Wee]

Thanks for the response, I would love to get cine glasses but cant justify the expense right now. I am also considering the HPX500 but, seems that for narrative work it seems that RED is much more suitable candidate.

[Shawn Nelson]

I am personally extremely excited about the Birger mount. If they can make the ff part of it smooth, then it could become a knock-out product!

[Bruce Allen]

I tried the Redrock and the Brevis on the HVX and unless you were
shooting outdoors in bright sunlight or could afford to hire a grip
truck with 2K HMI's it just was not that practical.

Haha, funny thing is, thanks to the fact that I decided to go with a cheap HV20 & 35mm adapter & used Nikon lens combo instead of buying a fancy camera, I had the cash available to buy a used 1.2K Arri HMI ;) But then I am a funny fellow... also, a lot of people I know own cameras but no lights, so I thought that getting lights that I can lend to them would be better than buying a camera that sits gathering dust and going out of date when I am at work doing title graphics... I am realistic enough to admit that directing won't be my daily source of income for a while to come ;)

Sorry, this is getting OT. Regarding Nikons vs Canons, you really won't know for sure until you've played with the Birger system yourself. There are 3 possibilities:

1. the Birger system will blow you away - great responsiveness, VR / IS is a huge value add, etc. You can use their focusing system for most shots, etc.
2. the Birger system works, but there are occasionally irritating things about it that means that you would do just as well using manual Nikons for what you want to do.
3. the Birger system doesn't work well (not that likely, IMHO).

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Finner]

Exactly Bruce

Knowing which lenses are best will have mostly to do with if there is much focus slop with either the cannon or nikon. It may work great but I am not sold that the stills built mechanical focus system of either the cannon or nikon will work that smoothly. Hopefully Birger will have both the cannon and nikon mount ready for when we do the LART testing and we will be able to do a little head to head testing.

[Erik Widding]

Knowing which lenses are best will have mostly to do with if there is much focus slop with either the cannon or nikon. It may work great but I am not sold that the stills built mechanical focus system of either the cannon or nikon will work that smoothly. Hopefully Birger will have both the cannon and nikon mount ready for when we do the LART testing and we will be able to do a little head to head testing.

Unfortunately we will have Canon, but not Nikon, for LART. At the end of the day it isn't going to be one manufacturer or the other. Each have some lenses that are very well constructed for this, and each have some that are not. The real key is going to be deciding which has the right set of good lenses that allow you to do what you want.

The Canon "L" lenses that have ring-type USM motors (I think this is all of them in the "L" series) are incredibly smooth for focusing. The $100 kit lenses with geared DC motors aren't worth the $100 that they cost, for this application. The real interesting part is going to be deciding which of the other low cost lenses (geared USM motors) that are going to be useful, for which applications.

I still don't have enough time in to speak intelligently about the strengths and weaknesses within the Nikon lineup.

We also have made it a priority to make the mounts easily switchable, just in case someone needs to assemble a set that requires more than one mount. Obviously not for switching from shot to shot, but with only four screws to remove and replace, it is really only a five minute job; requiring a dustcloth and an allen wrench. The front of the RED camera is built like a tank.

[Finner]

A small torque wrench and info on torque tightness amounts would be a very useful tool to have come with the mounts.

[Christian Berg]

Hi Erik!
When is the Nikon adapter going to be out? I have Nikon lenses and hope to use them with your adapter.
/Christian

[Digigenic]

Nikon Offers a 5-year warranty on all of their lenses.
Why does Canon only offer a 1-year warranty?
Even on their L glass, it's still just 1 year.

Also, as I understand it, Nikon is expected to make a huge announcement very soon that will feature the introduction of new DSLR lenses, primes, zooms, maybe even a new tilt/shift lens or two.

People are expecting to see AF-S added across the line, larger apertures on primes, and Nikon's Nano-crystal lens coating applied across the line.
There may even be a VRIII lens, but that wouldn't really matter for RED applications.

[John Wee]

Also, as I understand it, Nikon is expected to make a huge announcement very soon that will feature the introduction of new DSLR lenses, primes, zooms, maybe even a new tilt/shift lens or two.

when are you expecting the nikon announcement ?
I hope they have a D200 replacement. Is it at that show in Europe (Germany ?) at the end of August ?

[kunal2]

Hi,am also a Canon user(20D) recently i've been shooting exclusively on Raw and
discovered the benefits of it..c the results

I have been shooting with a Canon 5d dslr for the past year. The Canon digital camera are awesome! As are the L lenses. I hope that Birger can build a mount for the Red that will allow the use of the EOS lenses with Red. The Canon RAW files allow for an amazing amount of manipulation in Photoshop and I can only hope that the Red Raw will be the same for motion files.

[Mark B.]

If Nikon goes all digital with their future lenses, which is the direction they seem to be headed, then the differences become nitty-gritty between the lenses. On the other hand, if Nikon manufactures lots of new manual aperture lenses then they might be the better way to go.

Personally I'm going with Canon lenses if the Birger mount works smoothly and is affordable. I currently use a Canon 10D (I bought it back when it was novel and random strangers would ask "What's that?!"). I've been pretty happy with Canon lens offerings, even though I usually cheap out and get Sigma gear instead.

If you're debating the issue, why not compare similar lenses from the two companies:
Canon 70-200 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/234444-USA/Canon_7042A002_70_200mm_f_2_8L_IS_USM.html)
Nikon 70-200 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/278173-GREY/Nikon_2140_70_200mm_f_2_8D_VR_G_AFS.html)

Picture quality is the ultimate determination and won't show in the numbers, but if the picture quality does end up indistinguishable, then the closer-focusing; shorter lens size; and greater F-stop range of the Canon make it the winner in my eyes.

[Darwin]

never mind

[Karl H]

I appreciate all the work Evin has done here with Nikkors, but now the EOS adapter is immenent, would anyone have a reccomendation or a link to the best EOS lenses for use on the RED?

From what I understand, we need a newer one with a smooth motor action. Therefore making my old 50mm lens probably redundant.

Any thoughs out there for a decent but affordable lens kit with canon? I feel the nikkon crowd have got it easy from all the info here :-)

[Christoffer Glans]

The 85mm 1,4 (or 1,8 not sure) L serie prime is one of the best lenses of all lenses, to recommend one. :)

[sandesh]

How about getting the EOS mount and then use Nikon adapter to use both Canon & Nikon lens.
Best of both world.
Do people/expert see any issues?

[Michael Hastings]

How about getting the EOS mount and then use Nikon adapter to use both Canon & Nikon lens.
Best of both world.
Do people/expert see any issues?

Sandesh, at first I though no because the EOS mount won't work the Iris, but then I realized that if you use manual nikon lenses it should still work. Now you have me intrigued because I almost definitely will be using the Birger EOS mount so that we can use the 10-22 for underwater work, but it would be nice to be able to use some of those Nikon manual lenses that Evin raves about - so this might give us the best of both worlds.

So back to the experts - should this work without any major problems?

[PaulClements]

I appreciate all the work Evin has done here with Nikkors, but now the EOS adapter is immenent, would anyone have a reccomendation or a link to the best EOS lenses for use on the RED?

From what I understand, we need a newer one with a smooth motor action. Therefore making my old 50mm lens probably redundant.

Any thoughs out there for a decent but affordable lens kit with canon? I feel the nikkon crowd have got it easy from all the info here :-)

Checkout http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-Lens-Reviews.aspx for Canon reviews, they're pretty thorough. Skip to the bottom of the page to see a list of most of the lenses. The reviews seem to be unbiased and he doesn't go overboard. Seem like very honest and complete opinions of the lenses. One problem however is that he is not discussing them in a cine environment, so no mention of breathing or pulling focus etc.

If you are going to go Canon and can afford it go with the L Series as they have some beautiful glass. Buy brand new if you can (BH Photo do them cheaper than anywhere else I've seen, even most of the imports on eBay). They hold their value pretty well so even if you find you're not using them you'll be able to get back most of your money when you come to resell them. The downside of this is that you won't find cheap second hand ones which is why I say to buy brand new.



The 85mm 1,4 (or 1,8 not sure) L serie prime is one of the best lenses of all lenses, to recommend one.

The 85mm 1.2 II L series prime is better than either of the 1.4 or 1.8 as is the predecessor. However it does have an extending front element to it, but it's not too big so there ought to be ways of getting around it.

[sandesh]

AquaVideoRed206,
EOS mount can practically take any lens from Nikon...to ... whatever lens with an adapter... Has this issue been discussed on redforum... or should we start another thread?

[Digigenic]

Nikon Offers a 5-year warranty on all of their lenses.
Why does Canon only offer a 1-year warranty?
Even on their L glass, it's still just 1 year.

Also, as I understand it, Nikon is expected to make a huge announcement very soon that will feature the introduction of new DSLR lenses, primes, zooms, maybe even a new tilt/shift lens or two.

People are expecting to see AF-S added across the line, larger apertures on primes, and Nikon's Nano-crystal lens coating applied across the line.
There may even be a VRIII lens, but that wouldn't really matter for RED applications.
when are you expecting the nikon announcement ?
I hope they have a D200 replacement. Is it at that show in Europe (Germany ?) at the end of August ?
Succesor to the D2x/D2h series is expected first. Sometime this summer, with a release for fall/winter.
New lenses are expected around the same time, shortly thereafter, there might be a D200 successor.
But with the reported specs of the upcoming Canon 40D being leaked out today, I see no reason for Nikon to feel concerned enough to rush out a D200 successor.
The date being whispered and occassionally yelled out in forums as of late is July 26th.
That is when Nikon will be having a huge meeting of some sort to usher in their 90th anniversary.
Things are really quiet right now, though. No leaks. There's been some reasonably good speculation and some winks from people who've got a solid reputation for being great sources in the past, but there've been no real leaks of real images from ads or hidden literature on the specs on the web or anything.
So, as of right now there's nothing truly definitive, but eyes are fixed on the 90th anniversary later this summer.

[Karl H]

thanks Paul, much appreciated

[Karl H]

How would the canon IS lenses work on Red? In theory they are obviously designed for taking stills, but is there any reason this wouldnt give good image stabalisation on a moving shot?

[PaulClements]

I think part of the problem is that IS is moving the rear of the lens for the time the shutter is open to take the picture. It's open for a certain period of time, whereas in a cine scenario it'd probably make some weird kind of wobble. I guess LART will be able to tell us more and if not I dare say a number of users will. It might be useful in a few situations though.

[Mark B.]

I think part of the problem is that IS is moving the rear of the lens for the time the shutter is open to take the picture. It's open for a certain period of time, whereas in a cine scenario it'd probably make some weird kind of wobble. I guess LART will be able to tell us more and if not I dare say a number of users will. It might be useful in a few situations though.

The newer IS lenses have stabilization that can be set to only dampen perpendicular motion, and that might help prevent wobble when panning.

[Michael Hastings]

I think part of the problem is that IS is moving the rear of the lens for the time the shutter is open to take the picture. It's open for a certain period of time, whereas in a cine scenario it'd probably make some weird kind of wobble. I guess LART will be able to tell us more and if not I dare say a number of users will. It might be useful in a few situations though.

Paul, Check that because I don't think it is accurate. I sold my EOS20D and lenses last year, but it seems to me that I remember using the IS full time because I used to use the 300mm almost like a stabilised binocular/telescope, and it worked very well - I didn't notice any wobbles.

The IS on/off switch is on the lens itself. (you maybe had to have the shutter button partially depressed to power it though)

BTW I will be buying another Canon to be used in conjunction with my RED. I recall one of the gurus in another thread saying the DSLRs are one of the best ways to meter exposure rather than a special light meter - and it also takes pictures. I'm just waiting until the last minute for the latest Canon developments and lower prices.

[Mark Crabtree]

There are rumors of a new 22mp canon camera to be announced in September. One of the exciting rumors for us Red users is the possibilty of a new series of canon lenses to be provide better correction and resolution for high end digital images.