Why I wouldn't recommand RED for features

[Marco Graziaplena]

You guys at RED are doig a terrific job and probably changing the ways of making movies but you need to correct a couple of things:

1- Switching on the camera
It' simply impossible to wait 3 min for the camera to start up. More and more you need to be fast during productions. If a director wants to see the shot on a new camera position you can't answer "wait few minutes please, camera is starting up". You can imagine what happens during scenes at sunset, dawn etc... if you have to change batteries. Or if you got an actor that has to do something that requires lot of concentration. You just can't ask the whole crew to wait.

2- Batteries
This leads to the second problem: batteries life is too short compared to 35mm, 16mm or video cameras. Original RED batteries least 3h max, and custom built block batteries requires lot of Ah so not every rentals got some.

3- Hand held
Too difficult to unscrew and re-screw all those allen keys. You should find a faster solution as on Arricam or 435.
An israeli arm is to weak for the eyepiece: after 1 minute of hand held it will change position... I saw some interesting 3rd part companies solutions, you should copy or even think something better.

4- No 24V out
You should really add al least 3 24v out on RS. For wireless foucus, HF systems, remote on-off, cine-tape etc.

5- SD video out
I known SD is dead, but we're still in a transition. Lot of steadycam does'nt have HD yet (execpt for Ultra II and some customs built with Transvideo HD), lots of combo can't record HD and same for video HF systems. Using Miranda or any downconverter adds lot of weights (and batteries) on steadycam.

[Mark Pugh]

all 5 of your points are either incorrect, or the most ridiculous reasons for not wanting to shoot on Red.

[Marco Graziaplena]

hi mark, I'd love to know where my points are incorrect

thanks

[Mark Pugh]

for a start, go turn on a camera and time the boot up.
if you're hiring a kit with the EVF held by the israeli arm (red arm) you haven't looked hard for a good kit.
bigger batteries, or hot swap units are not hard to find.
you don't need to fiddle with allen keys unless you choose to build and break down the camera in a way that needs it.
some downconverters are almost weightless, and HD cameras have been used on steadicam many, many, many times...

[Peter Hodgins]

Marco ....
Interesting points ...

Now let's say you want to shoot a feature ... what camera would you use and why?

How much would it cost to produce a feature with your choice vs. a RED?

Who is going to come up with the extra money, and where are they going to get it?

Let's say it's not with Christian Bale, so breaking the Actors concentration will not be a major problem.

(part of the DoP job is now having enough batteries etc.)

[Marco Graziaplena]

Sorry I don't know exactly if it is 1 min, 2 or 3...
In any case is much much more than any other camera...
the problem is that with reflex you can see also if the camera is off, but in digital you need to switch on, and should be as fast as possible

[Marco Graziaplena]

Hi Peter!
I'm just saying that if RED wants to be in the same place as Arri and Panavision and Sony, and it is possible cause the quality of the image is astonishing, has to focus on several "technical" problems.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

1- Switching on the camera
It' simply impossible to wait 3 min for the camera to start up.

3 minutes? More like 1 minute. There are ways around this. In most situations, the start-up time should not be an issue. I usually have the camera powered-up and ready before I'm done attaching all my accessories and mounting the lens if I'm in that big of a hurry. At this point, directors and producers who are choosing to work with RED should be accepting of its little quirks and compromises. Every camera has flaws...


2- Batteries
This leads to the second problem: batteries life is too short compared to 35mm, 16mm or video cameras. Original RED batteries least 3h max, and custom built block batteries requires lot of Ah so not every rentals got some.

Once again, there are ways to work with this. RED batteries actually have quite good lifespan. I'm not sure what you are comparing with. The camera takes a good deal of power to process everything it does. There are dual-battery mounts like the ones from Switronics and Action Products. With these, you never have to power down the camera all day long to swap a battery.


3- Hand held
Too difficult to unscrew and re-screw all those allen keys. You should find a faster solution as on Arricam or 435.

WTF are you talking about? Lots of hand-held solutions. I can slide my camera off the Arri dovetail and slide the ET Mantis onto the bottom. It's like a 10 to 15 second procedure in most cases. To go from my shoulder back to the tripod it's the same way. And I can do it unassisted. There's also great handheld solutions from uGrip, ALLSTAR and more. In many situations I like my uGrip kit a bit better than the Mantis. I have the shoulder pad already on my shoulder, just wear it. I slide the camera off the Arri dovetail from the tripod / dolly, wherever and just swing it up to my shoulder. Pad is there, handles already on the camera...


An israeli arm is to weak for the eyepiece: after 1 minute of hand held it will change position... I saw some interesting 3rd part companies solutions, you should copy or even think something better.

RED isn't going to make every accessory. But there are EVF mounting solutions from Element Technica, Ronford Baker, SIM Video, Zacuto and others. If you rented or used a camera that only supplied a 9" "Israeli arm" with the EVF, then whoever supplied the camera package should be kicked in the nuts. Yes, seriously, kick them in the nuts.


4- No 24V out
You should really add al least 3 24v out on RS. For wireless foucus, HF systems, remote on-off, cine-tape etc.

Uh... Why? 24V??? There's 12V out via the d-tap connector on the battery plates. How are you going to get 24V out of a 12V system without additional converters and excessive power drain.


5- SD video out
I known SD is dead, but we're still in a transition. Lot of steadycam does'nt have HD yet (execpt for Ultra II and some customs built with Transvideo HD), lots of combo can't record HD and same for video HF systems. Using Miranda or any downconverter adds lot of weights (and batteries) on steadycam.

HD is dead. Transition happened already. You missed the boat. Of course, that's the case in the USA... The rest of the world isn't quite up to speed yet. Who in the last 3 years has even bought an SD monitor? Lots of options and work-arounds here. Even very compact, in-line converters that take minimal battery power to go from HD SDI 720p to 480/576i if you really need them. I'm actually glad that RED chose to not include additional circuitry for SD output.

My regular steadicam operators (two different guys) both still have SD monitors. We just mount the RED LCD to their rigs, what's the big deal? I fly the ActionCam RED Edition myself... Use the RED LCD. The 7" model is definitely preferred for this application. Actually, it's a really good size for this.

[Marco Graziaplena]

Uh... Why? 24V??? There's 12V out via the d-tap connector on the battery plates. How are you going to get 24V out of a 12V system without additional converters and excessive power drain.

That is the point... it would be easier if it was a 24V camera

[Liam Hall]

HD is dead. Transition happened already. You missed the boat. Of course, that's the case in the USA... The rest of the world isn't quite up to speed yet.
HD is working fine here thanks. As it is in many places around the world.

[Mark Pugh]

That is the point... it would be easier if it was a 24V camera

That's the most completely ridiculous reason for not shooting a feature on Red.
Sorry. I question your priorities in the decision making. I'll be taking a second opinion on cameras. Thanks, though. It's been a real eye-opener.

[Marco Graziaplena]

of course HD in europe is fine but I'm talking also about combo HD that can record... that's bit more difficult to find, especially if you're on lo-pro production
It's just a question of time for sure... but right now could still be a problem

[Michael Schmitt]

HD is working fine here thanks. As it is in many places around the world.

I'm pretty sure Jeff meant SD.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Yeah, I was just saying that most places have already converted to HD. Some parts of the world are still SD.

I'm confused as to why Marco wants to record to HD from RED. Kinda defeats the purpose of shooting RED, IMO. The SDI outputs on the camera are for monitoring / preview, and are not full quality for recording.

[Marco Graziaplena]

Mark
may be i didn't explained myself:
the title of this thread was actually "provocative" (I hope this is the right word to use)
the thing that really matter is that a manufacter of camera should try to make the camera as friendly and simple to use as possible.
I just noticed some "failures" on the RED and I'm posting so may be someone will read and think if is the case to change or not
I still want to use RED, and the more I use it the more I find things that could be corrected to have a better camera
sorry for misunderstanding

[Marco Graziaplena]

and there is also one more point

6- Is absolutly necessary a LOCK switch for all those buttons on the camera body and on the viewfinder... Hope everyone agree at least on that

[Marco Graziaplena]

Yeah, I was just saying that most places have already converted to HD. Some parts of the world are still SD.

I'm confused as to why Marco wants to record to HD from RED. Kinda defeats the purpose of shooting RED, IMO. The SDI outputs on the camera are for monitoring / preview, and are not full quality for recording.

I just regret to use sometimes downconverter especially if the steadycam operator is in SD and maybe at the rental you can't get a long cable for the RED on board monitor

[Christian Edwards]

Marco,
i dont want to sound harsh dude so forgive me before i start if i sound belligerent. let me Begin by saying i haven't shot a feature on red as yet, however, if these issues youre having with the camera are so detrimental your unable to see any possible way of shooting a feature adequately with red id be more inclined to think that it was you i wouldn't recommend to be shooting a feature .No camera system is perfect a lot about being a professional means you are able to work under pressure and devise and implement methods to help you work efficiently and effectively, a big key is to learn how to problem solve and or avoid these issues with logical work practice . it could be something as simple as a stand by camera for instance, you get my drift? a tradesman never blames his tools .

[Marco Graziaplena]

Ok i got you.. i?m just saying there plenty of things on the camera that COULD be better.
And I hope they will soon. for example look at the first picture that Jannard posted
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=30737
where is going the power cable of that preston (coming from the other side of the camera)? I hope not to a battery...

[Jason Diamond]

I have shot numerous feature on RED and have had none of the issues you seem to have issue with. Every camera has its ins/outs/ups/downs. go with what works for your production but none of the issues you posed really need any concern given the right prep and research for a project.

[Mark Pugh]

where is going the power cable of that preston (coming from the other side of the camera)? I hope not to a battery...

Um - that would be going to the MDR unit on top of the camera
...An integral voltage booster allows for
operation over a voltage range of 11 – 28 VDC.

[Meryem Ersoz]

Ok i got you.. i?m just saying there plenty of things on the camera that COULD be better.


And there are many things about your critical process which could be vastly improved upon...for starters, loading up your criticisms with careless inaccuracies doesn't do much for your credibility.

People in glass houses should not be the ones casting stones.

Start-up time has already been addressed in future incarnations of the camera. The EPIC and the SCARLET have already been announced as having a 2-second start-up time. RED ONE start-up is actually around 80-90 seconds, not 3 minutes, and you can be framing your shot while the camera is booting, since the image is in the viewfinder.

My question for you is...Why should RED (or anyone else, for that matter....) attend to someone who themselves can't pay reasonable attention to details or keep up with the basic information about what is actually going on with the camera development?

[Stuart English]

You guys at RED are doig a terrific job and probably changing the ways of making movies but you need to correct a couple of things:

1- Switching on the camera

2- Batteries

3- Hand held

4- No 24V out

5- SD video out

Marco, thanks for the feedback. We are always interested in making the product line better.

A few comments.

1. Boot time is 1 minute, this is because the camera technology is FPGA.
The new series will be much shorter than that - similar to other electronic cameras I predict.

2. Battery time is 90 minutes.
That's pretty typical for electronic cameras, and dual battery plates do exist as do block batteries.
Again the new camera series will use much less power.

3. I'll pass on that one .. others have offered their opinion.

4. No plans for 24V outputs from any of our cameras. Time to move forward.

5. No plans for SD outputs from any of our cameras. Time to move forward.

Also - menu lock out is under discussion.
But as the camera is a professional tool, there is a balance to be struck is between "idiot proofing" and "ease of use"

[Marco Graziaplena]

Thank you Stuart
really appreciate that... just why you say "time to move forward" regarding 24V?
and why you don't think about original RED aks for hand held & eyepiece leveller?

[Colin Sheldon]

where is going the power cable of that preston (coming from the other side of the camera)? I hope not to a battery...

We use a P-tap to lemo cable. Works great.

[Colin Sheldon]

Thank you Stuart
why you don't think about original RED aks for hand held & eyepiece leveller?

There's already great products out there - why do you want Red to supply every single camera accessory? Why not allow them to focus on making cameras?

[Marco Graziaplena]

cause they look like thinking big. So like Arri and Panavision, I think they should have all their own aks

[Mark Pugh]

cause they look like thinking big. So like Arri and Panavision, I think they should have all their own aks

what difference does it make, as far as your provocative thread title is concerned?
please:
:closed2ur0:

[Shawn Booth]

and there is also one more point

6- Is absolutly necessary a LOCK switch for all those buttons on the camera body and on the viewfinder... Hope everyone agree at least on that

Sure - EVF buttons have been known to get pushed all the time. Well, you can disable these buttons OR you can use the Element Technica EVF Guard.

If you're pushing buttons on camera while operating... Well, you have a problem in my IMO.

Marco ask yourself this. Are the "cons" that come with working with RED worth the final product?


And, what is the point to getting all of your AKS from one place? Anyone else get ALL of their AKS from the same rental house?


Can you name a perfect camera system? (Correct answer is no, perfection does not exist)

[Marco Graziaplena]

mark.... it makes a lot of difference
anyway you're right,
this thread is closed

[Marco Graziaplena]

and just a word for shawn:
435, 535, arricam st and lt, millennium, platinum (i'm not sure about GII) has a switch to lock... and you're not talking of amateur cameras

[Shawn Booth]

and just a word for shawn:
435, 535, arricam st and lt, millennium, platinum (i'm not sure about GII) has a switch to lock... and you're not talking of amateur cameras

No, we're not. I am familiar with all of the mentioned camera systems. In the last 11 years of working in this industry, I have never seen an operator (or a DP) utilize this option. But, what's your point?

Perhaps the real problem here isn't the RED...

[Dylan Macleod, CSC]

Sorry I don't know exactly if it is 1 min, 2 or 3...
In any case is much much more than any other camera...
the problem is that with reflex you can see also if the camera is off, but in digital you need to switch on, and should be as fast as possible

I run a hot swap system. The camera remains on all day. This is not an issue, unless you want it to be.

[Marco Graziaplena]

Sorry Shwan
may be in fact I'm not talkin as an operator..
I've been AC for long time.
My point is that you can't swicht frame rate on a 435 unless you REALLY want to
by the way you can for example switch to COLOR MODE just because you hitted a button while you were hand held
I just say that a LOCK SWITH would be safer for all of us

[Marco Graziaplena]

and to Colin Sheldon:
hi I dind't know about that P-Tap...
could you please show me in the photo where exactly it is
thank you very much

[Marco Graziaplena]

dylan..
I think is a BIG issue if the camera takes 90sec or even 1 min to start up. Just bacause every one is used to se the frame immediatly.
As plenty answered soon this won't be a problem no more. Well I really hope so

[Greg M]

Marco,
Next time you shoot a feature, give us a call. I think you will find that if you rent your package from a quality vendor (like us) that has in depth knowledge of the camera and accessories your list will quickly vanish. All of our camera packages are designed for professional productions and as such have the appropriate accessories that address all of your concerns. We regularly supply packages to large budget productions and have not once had a single complaint.

http://www.digitalfx.tv/#/red/camera

1- Switching on the camera
Our cameras boot in 1 minute...never had a complaint, but in case thats not fast enough we have accessories that will prevent you from ever having to shut down the camera.

2- Batteries
We have numerous battery options including Blocks that last longer than any of our 435 packages.

3- Hand held
We can switch our cameras to hand-held in far less time than our 435, and its much more comfortable rig. 30 seconds tops.

4- No 24V out
FYI- Cinetape does not require 24v, we power it fine from our Red...all the other accessories we provide and they work just fine with our power system.

5- SD video out
Its 2009...time for your steadicam ops to move forward. We were tired of the Video Assist guys bringing in their circa 1985 gear so we built our own systems that are full on HD 2 camera video assist stations that run circles around ANYTHING on the market. But if you still want to remain in 1985 we have plenty of downconvert options that wont break your back.

6- Buttons- all our Reds are equiped with guards which eliminate your problems.

Bottom line is, if you are shooting a feature you shouldnt be renting a $500 Red Package...you get what you pay for.

[Shawn Booth]

Sorry Shwan
may be in fact I'm not talkin as an operator..
I've been AC for long time.
My point is that you can't swicht frame rate on a 435 unless you REALLY want to
by the way you can for example switch to COLOR MODE just because you hitted a button while you were hand held
I just say that a LOCK SWITH would be safer for all of us

Uh... Marco... Unless you program a user button and then take additional steps, you "can't switch frame rates on a RED unless you REALLY want to" either.


I don't care if you're talking about being a camera PA, an assistant, an operator, a DP or even someone else on the set that shouldn't be playing with cameras. It's obvious your issues with this camera system are your issues and those issues go beyond the RED.

Operator error can not be fixed or updated by RED.

It really appears you are just new to both the camera and REDUSER. Welcome. Sorry it isn't the best experience for you.

But I know what you mean. I think RED needs to get off their butts and figure out how to make the CF cards and drives emit the celluloid fragrance while the camera body plays the sounds of internal mechanics purring away. Until then... I just don't know how I'm ever gonna do my job again...

[Blair S. Paulsen]

The RedOne camera is not perfect - that's news?

The Epic will be better in many ways, including dealing with many of the issues in this thread.

The Epic will still have flaws, just like every camera system in the world.

There are at least a half dozen camera systems appropriate for shooting a feature, it has been proven on many occasions that the RedOne is in that group.

If the RedOne's particular idiosyncrasies cause too much interference with your creative process, by all means, select a different camera system.

Keep in mind that most other camera systems appropriate for feature work have had far longer to develop best practices to mitigate their inherent limitations. So much so, that it is easy to forget they exist.

It should be noted that some of your issues relate to incomplete support packages at some rental houses, not the RedOne itself.

Cheers- #19

[Jonas Rejman]

Experiences from 2 features had shown me, that none, really none of your points are something to be concerned of. For everything there is a sollution, and you do not even have to look hard those days....

20 minutes takes, out to SD wireless, crane, steadycam, -10C, shooting in rain, ... all was doable with the proper research in advance and there were not more hiccups, than with any other camera.

Not sure where you got your package, but I think that is the real problem here.

I also question, why you are posting "provocative" not-well-researched facts by intention, because the reasons you give actually reveal quite a lot about your qualities as AC. AC's like you probably should not decide on what to shoot a feature, and luckily they rarely are. Thanks for your opinion however.

There are other issues with the RED, one have to be very careful of. They all have to do with image capturing and processing, and they are those that decide if you shoot RED or not.

[Marco Graziaplena]

To Blair & Jonas:
I don't want to select a different camera system... I'm just saying to change something on RED cameras to be more "user friendly"... I like very much RED otherwise I wouldn't spend the whole evening answering those posts!

[Alex Carr]

1. Block Batteries and hot swap plates. Turn the camera on in the morning, turn it off at lunch.

2. Block batteries have 24v.

3. down converters are usually standard in most Steadicam ops kit.

4. Handheld is not hard to configure.

I agree with you on #6.

I think you need a 1st AC better experienced with the Red and known accessories and practices. Everything youve mentioned is 100% avoidable. A good rental house will have many of the options you desire.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

To Blair & Jonas:
I don't want to select a different camera system... I'm just saying to change something on RED cameras to be more "user friendly"... I like very much RED otherwise I wouldn't spend the whole evening answering those posts!

Im sorry you have had such a bad experience.. but to the same tune with everyone else.. most of your issues are non-existent. switching to false color during the middle of the take = completely avoidable.. disable that user button..(1st AC should have the camera prepped ahead of time)

90sec boot time... for feature film making this is really not an issue..
I have never been on a set where they were like.. "QUICK FIRE IT UP AND LETS GET THIS SHOT THAT IS HAPPENING IN THE NEXT 4 SECONDS"

PLUS.. if its for framing purposes.. the camera comes to life in 5 seconds with picture.

but regardless.. keep the camera on all day if you want.. its really easy to do so.

granted.. if your just using an out of the box straight from RED bare bones camera system.. things will be tougher on you. but that is why there are so many smart companies with excellent red support (element technica, able cine.. so on)
I can see you enjoy the camera somewhat.. but the thread title is a harsh and unfounded opinion
hopefully you have a better experience next time.. :)

[Roberto Lequeux]

Marco needs to read a little. If you want to find excuses just call your girlfriend and she'll be glad to nod and agree with whatever you say. then you can trade in your Red One to "upgrade" up to a Varicam!!! Weee!!! lol... Does your paycheck say Panasonic? :thumbsup:

Seriously though... Have you heard about dynamic range, color reproduction and detail? That might be a few good things to start the other side of the pros and cons list with.

And keep in mind that there is a new camera coming out like now which will address many of your issues. And Red Ones are taken in by Red at full value for an upgrade the the new ones... I mean... I just don't get where you are coming from. If you said film that is one thing, but you didn't.

[Stefan Christou]

Wow you guys really took that list seriously. :coolgleamA:

[Cail Young]

I have never been on a set where they were like.. "QUICK FIRE IT UP AND LETS GET THIS SHOT THAT IS HAPPENING IN THE NEXT 4 SECONDS"

I have - camera truck arrives at 0830, day exterior, it starts snowing and the DOP wants the camera and an 18mm for a landscape shot NOW.

Took us longer to sprint up the hill to the position than it did for the camera to boot.

[jimhare]

I think it was more the shock of that list being the cause of someone saying "Why I wouldn't recommend RED for features"



Wow you guys really took that list seriously. :coolgleamA:

[J. Eric Camp]

Multiple features with:

Every piece of AKS that needed to work getting it's power from the red system one way or the other. (this includes but is not limited to: Wireless FF, Cinetape, Down-converter + wireless SD or simply wireless HD.)

Handheld to tripod... maybe 15 seconds.

EVF.... hasn't been on a Israeli arm in over a year.

I only shut the camera down when I want to or make a mistake.

Boot time is a drag. Nothing new and there is no one here that will say that they don't want a faster boot. However, it does take very little to move into the practice of booting in advance. If we are headed into a location, on the way in just simply hit the power button. When the camera lands it is magically ready.

Simply put we have heard your points. They are valid, however most of them have already been "solved." So rather than seeking out solutions you come here and make dismissive declarative statements. It is a natural reaction on many peoples part to respond with short declarative answers.

[Andrew clemson]

Sorry to hear you're not loving the camera.

If your rental house doesnt supply a better option, I would suggest you buy the Zacuto EVF mount for your own benefit. Its not perfect, but its only a couple of hundred dollars and is infinitely better than the magic arms.

[Bob Gruen]

I'm shooting a feature with it right now...


You guys at RED are doig a terrific job and probably changing the ways of making movies but you need to correct a couple of things:

1- Switching on the camera


I have an A/C power supply, 3 Red Bricks, charger, and a battery belt clip. My HMIs and flos take much longer to spool up.



2- Batteries


3 hours on a charge is a problem???



3- Hand held


I built a bracket that holds a pro LCD up front next to the Mattebox. Granted it's custom but you can achieve the same thing with a little Red hardware. I don't even own a viewfinder.



4- No 24V out


There are 12V accessories out there, or 24V batts with leads. First you say battery life isn't long enough then you say I want to pile a bunch of load on it. You make no sense.



5- SD video out


Why would you want it? A simple HDMI cable and a $130 HD TV and you have your director's monitor. The camera records the footage (that's its job) and the computer extracts to any format you want (that's its job).


Let's be honest: Why I wouldn't recommend RED for features -> "Because I know film and I don't want to have to learn anything new"

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I've heard people complain about the startup time, but if it's just one minute how is this really a big problem on a professional shoot? I mean I'm just trying to think about it myself here, but in my mind I can't really recall on any of my shoots a time where we needed to turn the camera on and were immediately ready to roll. Usually we are waiting on something to be tweaked, a lighting setup, last-second makeup, going over a line or something like that. If it's just about 60 seconds to startup, I really can't see this being much of a problem to most people...? I would just assume on a feature film that it's the last thing that would be a concern because you'd just anticipate it and it's only one minute, there is so much setup anyway you'd just have it on by the time you were ready to roll right?

[Andrae Palmer]

HaHa.... I guess the grips can do lighting in 60 seconds or less. The talent can also be ready in 60 seconds or less. The gaffer can run electricity in 60 seconds or less. They have a super fast set.

[Shawn Booth]

Consider for a moment that all film cameras switch on - immediately. Most digital cameras are ready in less than 60 sixty seconds. It takes time for change to take affect. Try to understand that. People are used to and comfortable with not having to wait on camera... And time IS money, even a minute can be costly. Crews are not used to waiting on camera. Camera moves silently and quickly. Rare is the time camera holds up production...

The boot time for the RED blows. It's one of a kind in this regard as well. But I'll take it for what I get.

But don't forget, the new lines of cameras are estimated to boot in about 2 seconds.

[Andrae Palmer]

Consider for a moment that all film cameras switch on - immediately. Most digital cameras are ready in less than 60 sixty seconds. It takes time for change to take affect. Try to understand that. People are used to and comfortable with not having to wait on camera... And time IS money, even a minute can be costly. Crews are not used to waiting on camera. Camera moves silently and quickly. Rare is the time camera holds up production...

The boot time for the RED blows. It's one of a kind in this regard as well. But I'll take it for what I get.

But don't forget, the new lines of cameras are estimated to boot in about 2 seconds.

How long does it take to load a film camera and check the gate?

[Shawn Booth]

How long does it take to load a film camera and check the gate?

Less than the time it takes for the RED to boot...

Both tasks can be completed in under 40 seconds most of the time. A lot of the time, reloading is done when other things are in motion. The 2nd AC knows at all times how much film is left in the mag. They also know the run time of the take roughly and attempt to reload right before moving the camera to the next set up, usually before the actors even clear the set. I wouldn't say camera reloading holds things up though. But even if it does hold things up, it's so fast no one bothers going to craft service while it is happening... "Camera's booting" is the perfect time to visit crafty, smoke, 10-1, adjust some lights and get a Coke.

Checking the gate only holds up moving on to the next set up or going home. It doesn't take a full sixty seconds to complete. IMO, this doesn't compare to the RED's boot time. I do see your point in that it takes time...

[Andrae Palmer]

Checking the gate only holds up moving on to the next set up or going home. It doesn't take a full sixty seconds to complete. IMO, this doesn't compare to the RED's boot time. I do see your point in that it takes time...

With film that's a process that has to be done quite often and with RED the boot time could only be every few hours if using batteries with a dual mount. I guess depending on your setup the boot time can be limited only to once.

[Douglas Underdahl]

Well I think the boot time is a drag, to a certain extent. But I made up a hot swap dual battery mount, and that along with six 90 watt hour batteries and the RED ac adapter means that downtime or waiting time with my RED is much shorter than with the Arri 35BL that I used to own. MUCH shorter.

[Joel J. Feigenbaum]

Yes, we all would like a shorter boot time on RED One. And as others have said, we can expect a much quicker boot time on future RED cameras. But having been on film sets for 30 years, in the course of a shoot day, we wait on each department for different reasons (all valid) many times a day during or between set-ups and takes. An actor's make-up needs a touch up. Hair has to remedy an errant fly-away. Sound needs to re-load (these days meaning format a new optical disk). Noisy film mag that needs to be changed out. Noisy crew talking or walking around on a set during a take. An actor walks on the set wearing the wrong wardrobe. Need to shoot another take because the mic dropped in the shot or we see the boom shadow. Props need to match food for take two, re-fill water glasses, match candle height. A light blows. Grips need to fix a squeaky dolly. Someone didn't turn off their CELL PHONE DURING A TAKE!!!!!!!!!!!! And the dreaded -- an actor can't remember or never learned their lines.

To cite a 1 minute boot-up time for RED is absurd. If that is the biggest problem on a set all day long, I'll take 60 RED boot-ups over any of the other normal delays that happen every day on the set.

[Dan Blanchett]

Maybe this was mentioned already in this thread, but ever since I got my Switronix hotswap mount, I typically leave the camera on all day, rotating four batteries out. Avoids the whole power down/power up (unless the camera gets too hot). And now that you can format drives with version 5 of R3D manager, you don't need to lose anytime between shots.

Dan

[Michael Hastings]

Well I think the boot time is a drag, to a certain extent. But I made up a hot swap dual battery mount, and that along with six 90 watt hour batteries and the RED ac adapter means that downtime or waiting time with my RED is much shorter than with the Arri 35BL that I used to own. MUCH shorter.

Was that Anton bauer 90s or what? I'm looking for a more reliable and travel friendly solution for my RED/ underwater housing setups.

[Antonio Forjaz]

I shot all day with my RED today, my first day, my RED is not even complete, I only have one 8 GIG card, no RED batteries (used Global media pro one's) I don't have my EVF yet, don't have my RED drive yet... still waiting for stuff to be delivered from RED, and yet it was great... I did notice the 1 minute boot's, but I did not find it too bad, it gave talent time, makeup time, and it even helped get every one settled and ready.
I had a happy day shooting for the first time on the RED.

[Shawn Booth]

Maybe this was mentioned already in this thread, but ever since I got my Switronix hotswap mount, I typically leave the camera on all day, rotating four batteries out. Avoids the whole power down/power up (unless the camera gets too hot). And now that you can format drives with version 5 of R3D manager, you don't need to lose anytime between shots.

Dan

How long is your shoot day? What batteries do you use?

I find it hard to keep 6 bricks charged and going throughout a typical day (14 hour) for me...

[Douglas Underdahl]

Michael - they are the 90 wh bats from Batteries for Broadcast. I wish I had got them in AB mount, which I'm pretty sure is much more robust than V mount. One of my V mounts on the B for B 4 gang charger is already messed up. With the two 90's I can run the cam for about two hours before I hot swap. I have six bats, and the charger will charge up 4 batteries in 2.5 hours, so I can keep cycling and not have to power down all day, though I usually power down when we do a big set up change anyway, like move to a new scene or come on or off the jib, etc. I believe that the 90's are more airline friendly than the RED 140's.

[Michael Hastings]

Michael - they are the 90 wh bats from Batteries for Broadcast. I wish I had got them in AB mount, which I'm pretty sure is much more robust than V mount. One of my V mounts on the B for B 4 gang charger is already messed up. With the two 90's I can run the cam for about two hours before I hot swap. I have six bats, and the charger will charge up 4 batteries in 2.5 hours, so I can keep cycling and not have to power down all day, though I usually power down when we do a big set up change anyway, like move to a new scene or come on or off the jib, etc. I believe that the 90's are more airline friendly than the RED 140's.

Thanks for the info. Airline friendliness on the 90s was my interest too. I suspect that is also a driving factor for the Epic/Scarlet batteries.