what does sony, panasonic say about red!!

[Zakaree Sandberg]

i bet you all wanted to see what they say about red! but so do i.. thats why im posting this. anyone have any articles with quotes from any of these companies?
last i heard some reps were spitting out "vaporware".. but now that footage has been shown.. spike being built.. and so on, i havent heard anything.

[Akcelik]

they suffer in their jox. :rolleyes:

[Blue]

I'd say those reps are trying to avoid the subject as if it was some (excuse me) genital infection. I know I would if I were them.

[Kenn Christenson]

They're probably too busy figuring out rebate programs that will make their cameras look attractive - as they say, "You can put lipstick on a pig..." :)

[Zakaree Sandberg]

maybe they arent worried too much.. because the consummer market is of much more value to them.. how many f900's, varicams, or dalsa's do they actually sell..?
i think arri and sony are at more risk.. (sony makes the panavision genesis right?.. pana just panavised it.. correct?)

[Blue]

how many f900's, varicams, or dalsa's do they actually sell?

Not many, and fewer in the future I dare say.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Not many, and fewer in the future I dare say.

i concur

[Kenn Christenson]

I think Red is going to cut into their lower end $10K-30K market as well. (Just look at the recent JVC rebate program for their brand new cameras.)

Why buy one of those cameras that will end up being a spendy doorstop in 3 years or less, when you can get a camera that is built to be upgradeable?

[Zakaree Sandberg]

i just looked at jvc new hd200u or whatever and the 250.. i find it funny how its so obvious that they purposly dont put the "extra" stuff from the 250 into the 200. there is no way those extra adapters and the fact that it can output timecode shoudl cost an extra 3-4 grand. and your right.. if you buy that crap.. its just gunna be outdated in april;-)

[Ace]

Now now kids.. Lets not be mean to the slow ones.

[Tonaci Tran]

RED's progress thus far undoubtedly caused Sony's 4k camera announcement.

"Company executives estimated that it will take two to three years to release the camera and system, which they said will create better resolution when combined with their 4K projector, "

Two to three years for Sony.... but so far..around one year for the RED...and basically starting from scratch.

Without RED, 4k cameras would only be a pipe dream for most of us.

[donatello b]

at LA DV expo panasonic floor person said RED would never reach the market place, it's ALL BS " the price tells you that" ... i mentioned that the day before i saw a screening of 4k clips and his response was "did you see the camera?"

[Zakaree Sandberg]

at LA DV expo panasonic floor person said RED would never reach the market place, it's ALL BS " the price tells you that" ... i mentioned that the day before i saw a screening of 4k clips and his response was "did you see the camera?"
i remember hearing you say that.. thats funny

[Thomas Mathai]

Well whatever Sony and Panasonic do, be it rebates, more camera for less, etc, we're the ones who benefit.

Not everyone needs or wants a Red camera. Data centric workflow doesn't work for everyone.

I wouldn't be surprised if the HVX-200A comes out WITH two P2 cards costing under $5k.

Red just accelerates things.

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Market stratification strategies that leverage a common base platform have been employed for years. Remember the "crippling" of the original Sony VX-1000s by unlocking the audio to try and dissuade the low end broadcasters from jumping to Mini-DV from BetaSP. Sony has long been one of the most egregious offenders as they actually have discrete divisions within their infrastructure to market to each strata of customers and try mightily to wall each channel off.

Almost 10 years ago I spent $25K to buy a Sony DXC30 head with DVCAM back and BQ Fujinnon zoom. I still go out with it regularly but if I wanted to upgrade what would I have to choose from? Let's use the RedOne with the 18-85 Red Zoom, 3 Red Drives and some accessories as a reference point of around $30-35K - I already have Anton bricks, decent sticks, Lectro package, et al. Guess what, the units aimed at the Broadcast market from Sony and Panny are in the same price range. XDCAM-HD anyone, of course we're talking 1/2" chips and brutal compression rates but at least the workflow is easy and the media cheap and easy to archive. Panny is releasing some P2 based rigs with 2/3" chips that are promising an H.264 codec upgrade by NAB so that you can cram more footage onto the P2 cards - which are going to get cheaper any day now :D . I have seen demos of the Thompson Infinity but does anyone actually have one yet? Keep in mind that a decent B4 HD zoom lens for any of these rigs is north of $20K.

From a price standpoint these are the direct competitors to the RedOne, not the Varicam (even with the recent price drop) or the Sony F900 series which are far pricier. From a performance standpoint one might argue that the Varicam and F900 series cameras are of sufficent quality to meet producer and audience expectations so why aim higher. I think that argument is specious because it assumes that display tech is static and that given exposure to better images audience expectations won't adjust. Don't even get me started on the value of creating assets that will hold up a decade or two down the road when display tech is substantially better and home screens are commonly over 70" diagonal.

The adoption of IT centric post workflows will not happen overnight, the installed base of major manufacturer cameras, decks, et al will not become obsolete overnight. The highly trained people who use and service the existing infrastucture will look to extend the useful life of their skill sets. When Ted bills himself as the leader of the Rebellion it is more than just a homage to Princess Leia. The new paradigm will be birthed with a lot of screaming from the Sony's of the world.

Get ready for a serious disinformation campaign, they are already planning it.

Blair S. Paulsen
RedOne #19

[PaulClements]

As far as Sony and Panasonic are concerned they will have lost around 1000+ customers that many of which probably wouldn't have been buying their $200k cameras anyway. I doubt they'll be all to bothered given they are worth as much as they are and have as many fingers in different pies as they do.

They'll simply continue to monopolise the market with aftersales BS that the studios will continue to eat up and invest heavily in their overpriced systems.

The independent film maker has never really been the top of their list, infact I doubt it's been the top of any camera makers list until the likes of RED, SI and Kinetta. The large majority of indy's spending as little as possible on production doesn't often appeal to many manufacturers but is a key demographic of any startup company entering into a saturated industry.

That said I'm sure they will learn from Red's approach and steal alot of ideas and come up with something very similar that'll keep them in the race, it's whether they choose to adopt a similar price structure that is of interest and should they do so we are all winners.

[Evin Grant]

Great post Blair.

[Tonaci Tran]

The modularity concept that makes RED so future proof (replaceable sensor) is the icing on the cake that I doubt Sony would ever take.

[Jared VanLeuven]

I would bet that the day RED ONE is used on a "major" shoot, with its beautiful picture quality for all to see, Sony and Panny and Pana will have some explaining to do to the studio bean counters.

[Tonaci Tran]

David Stump has already been asked by a director to use RED on a feature in 2007. If the camera ships as planned, we will be seeing a number of big features shot with RED next summer. Hopefully we will be able to see some of them released in 4k at Landmark.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

I would bet that the day RED ONE is used on a "major" shoot, with its beautiful picture quality for all to see, Sony and Panny and Pana will have some explaining to do to the studio bean counters.

exactly.. yah the price (for now) is aimed at us indi guys.. but the camera is no indi camera.. this camera doesnt just compete with xdcam-hd or the new panasonic hd p2 camera because its in the same price range.. this camera will blow those away.. as it will the d20 or f900 which would be listed above $100,000..

[Scott Webster]

Think about this. Marker Karahadian, owner of Plus 8 Digital, puts in reservations for 5 Red cameras at the NAB 06 launch.

In October, he sells Plus8 to Panavision, just prior to the IBC screening of Red. :)

Hows that for timing?

Which also means Panavision, whether intentionally or not will take delivery of 5 Red cameras.

[Steve Gibby]

Marker will need to pay for the RED cameras then do what he wants with them after that (sell them) - RED reservations are not transferable.

[Anders Holck]

Actually that brings up a good question.
It's not actually me buying my RED but my company, I did sign the reservation form, but I will not own it personally.

Will I still own my reservation if I quit my own company? Or would that be a transfer to myself :rolleyes:

[Tonaci Tran]

Which also means Panavision, whether intentionally or not will take delivery of 5 Red cameras.

Seeing that plus8 carries Viper and Varicam why wouldn't they take the REDs? Is panavision super tied with Sony to the point where they would not include RED in their HD camera lineup?

[robbo]

For NZ$40k I can deck out a Red with all bells and whistles, very nearly maybe not all bells but most.

For NZ$52k I get a Sony XD Cam F530 (body only).
For NZ$40k I get a Sony XDhd F350 (body only).
For NZ$40k I get a Panasonic SDX900 (body only).
For NZ$40k I get a Panasonic HDX900 (body only).
For NZ$40k I get a Panasonic HPC2100 (body only), sometime later.
And others yet to come but unofficially announced. The only cam I have heard about that remotely challenges red on price point only is the 2/3" HPX500 (hvx 200 big brother). With a lens that should work out to around 40ish nzd - but I still haven't heard what size ccd's are going in there.

No comparison - but horses for courses as we all know.
Wait ! What's that I hear ?
Someone's shouting - "Corporate Fat !"
hmm, we'll see. interesting times ahead.

edit: I went a varicam seminar recently and it was very interesting. Panny are doing a great pr job here in NZ, really. Can't speak too highly of their endeavours.
Anyways, one of the Panny reps said to me, "If you've got any ideas of what features you might want in the new cams let us know or tell Taguchi san ( the presenter)."
I said to him, "umm, just head over to Red.com."
He just rolled his eyes ..... wrote me off a hopeless case.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Actually that brings up a good question.
It's not actually me buying my RED but my company, I did sign the reservation form, but I will not own it personally.

Will I still own my reservation if I quit my own company? Or would that be a transfer to myself :rolleyes:

my situation is just the opposite... I bought the reservation with my own cash... yet my company (even tho its just me..cinematographer) will be buying the camera. that has to be fair game

[Scott Webster]

Seeing that plus8 carries Viper and Varicam why wouldn't they take the REDs? Is panavision super tied with Sony to the point where they would not include RED in their HD camera lineup?

Because you can't have the Genesis renting at $5000 per day and it's nearest 'soon to be available, subject to meeting specification' competitor renting at $500 per day.

[Chris Kenny]

Because you can't have the Genesis renting at $5000 per day and it's nearest 'soon to be available, subject to meeting specification' competitor renting at $500 per day.

I don't think this would be a major problem for them. They'd could stick PV mounts on their Reds and make a few other modifications, and rent them in the same price range as the Genesis. Their customers wouldn't even blink.

[Tonaci Tran]

I wonder if Panavision would ever break their partnership with sony to make a "panavised" RED. For businesses to survive ..they all must go through adaptation. Waiting for SONY to make a 4k camera that will likely cost 100,000 + would not be a good move.

[Scott Webster]

I don't think this would be a major problem for them. They'd could stick PV mounts on their Reds and make a few other modifications, and rent them in the same price range as the Genesis. Their customers wouldn't even blink.

Certainly the PV mount would be an attractive addition to the Red. If Panavision did go that way it would go some way to giving the camera a production stamp of approval.

It would help us all in fact. "Yes it's the same camera as rented by Panavision except with a PL mount"

Really depends how much Panavision have invested in making the Genesis 'The' camera for digital cinema. Would they want to detract from their own house brand?

[Alex Fostvedt]

Not to hijack the thread, but it is more a matter of WHEN than IF, in regards to Panavision "Panavising" the Red camera. This could open up some very cool lens options for productions that wish to rent the "panavised" Red.

[Scott Webster]

Not to hijack the thread, but it is more a matter of WHEN than IF, in regards to Panavision "Panavising" the Red camera. This could open up some very cool lens options for productions that wish to rent the "panavised" Red.

Or simply a third party providing a PV lens mount for the Red and productions hiring Panavision glass.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

500 a day for red sounds a little low.. (from a owner/renter view).. my package will be fully done up.. follow focus. matte box. filter set. efv..the works.. i dont think i would settle for 500.. not when im trying to pay this thing off and make money for myself.

also side note.. even if panavision just made a pv mount and attatched it.. how hard would it be for any guy with machine equipment to duplicate this mount. then basically anyone could have a panavised red and use their lenses

edit. sorry didnt see the post right above me...

[Chris Kenny]

500 a day for red sounds a little low.. (from a owner/renter view).. my package will be fully done up.. follow focus. matte box. filter set. efv..the works.. i dont think i would settle for 500.. not when im trying to pay this thing off and make money for myself.


$500/day sounds reasonable for the body. An entire package, obviously, is going to rent for a lot more.

[Blaine Golden]

I think they're in denial regarding RED. They don't believe it's really going to happen, when it does, then they'll start figuring out what to do about it.

Their attitude, in the words of Scarlett O'Hara: "I can't think about that right now. If I do, I'll go crazy. I'll think about that tomorrow."

[Finner]

$500/day sounds reasonable for the body. An entire package, obviously, is going to rent for a lot more.


I think it would be rare to rent just the body. A lot of the time a few acc. would go along with the body. Look at the daily rent on a HVX and that is a camera worth less then a third of a Red body. I would think $750 to $1,000 a day would not be anywhere out of range. That said a I would only charge rent for shooting days so with a 1 day commercial or music vid you still would need to let them have the camera for a prep day and a return day after the shoot so 1 days rental ties up the camera for 3 days. So situation like that I would probably base a rental as $1,000 for a one day shoot situation and fairly move that price down depending on the # of days rented.

[Alex Fostvedt]

Or simply a third party providing a PV lens mount for the Red and productions hiring Panavision glass.

Panavision Flange=56mm
PL Flange=52mm

Flange depth is fairly easy to change, adding 4mm. I believe the Panavision lensport is wider in diameter, thus you would have to fabricate an entire mount. Possible for sure. Guide pins would be an easy change. Could be cool to have the option to buy a third party BNCR mount for the RED. I wonder if Panavision would rent just lenses?

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Panavision Flange=56mm
PL Flange=52mm

Flange depth is fairly easy to change, adding 4mm. I believe the Panavision lensport is wider in diameter, thus you would have to fabricate an entire mount. Possible for sure. Guide pins would be an easy change. Could be cool to have the option to buy a third party BNCR mount for the RED. I wonder if Panavision would rent just lenses?

im pretty sure they would

[r. dahl]

imho... the big elephants are too deep w/ layers & layers of suits to concern themselves currently w/ such a single minded shark as red.

the big co's are silos of diff. divisions which fight amongst each other under the ol' brand umbrella.

sure some of the product guys @ those co's are watching & may simply try & buy red... or copy...

[Stephen Williams]

im pretty sure they would

Hi,

Panavision will rent just lenses, that's how their business started, cameras came later!

Stephen

[James T Mather]

Panavision are not in "denial" about the red - I've spoken to them about it - they're curious but cautious - which is sensible - they simply wont invest in a camera that is not market proven. Dependability is the most vital thing for them and they will, no doubt, adopt the Red camera when it hits the market and has undergone some independent and rigorous testing. Then they will, no doubt, get involved.

And I think Panavision will be dubious about renting lenses to people that they are unfamiliar with - you would need a camera assistant who is familiar and trusted by them before they let a set of primos out the door.

[Alister Robbie]

I know that recent Red announcements have certainly changed the scope of our recent camera purchase discussions. Up until recently, the mission was to buy a varicam, and it was a case of how and when. (the sony offerings were really quite underwhelming for the money) Now, we are holding back on any purchase decision pending red developments and release.

[Mardi_Gras]

I know that recent Red announcements have certainly changed the scope of our recent camera purchase discussions. Up until recently, the mission was to buy a varicam, and it was a case of how and when. (the sony offerings were really quite underwhelming for the money) Now, we are holding back on any purchase decision pending red developments and release.

If nothing else, the RedOne with its advertized specs has put a wrench in the works of the mundane, traditional and dogmatic mindset that permeates decision making as it relates to the purchase, acquisition and stocking of film/video cameras and workflow in general.

[Scott Webster]

Further info on the Sony F23 from Studio Daily:
http://www.studiodaily.com/main/news/headlines/7484.html

Reading between the lines you're looking at somewhere between US150-200K which I believe is comparable with a Viper/SRW-1 Combo purchase.

Quote:
'Willox also announced that Sony intends to build an entire pipeline of affordable 4K equipment for production, post and exhibition, although there was no hard time frame. This big news was somewhat downplayed by Willox, who called it “a design goal.”

“We’re going down the path to change imager technology, to take a quantum leap in signal processing,” he said. “There is no time frame, and nothing will be shown at NAB ’07. We expect that you’ll first see something in late 2008 or early 2009.”'

Based on the above, I'm not sure their definition of affordable and mine, are the same.

[Hoffmann Films]

very interesting, I also have heard about this technology from Japan but I'm sure it is many years away.


8K Television System “Ultra High-Definition TV”

Ultra High-Definition TV (Ultrahigh-Definition Wide-Screen System with 4000 Scanning Lines) is the technology developed by NHK Science & Technical Research Laboratories that delivers the images so real that viewers feel as if they were actually at the site of the broadcast and find themselves attempting to touch what’s on the screen. The large, wide-screen video images with the resolution equivalent to that of gravure printing strike viewers as a fresh surprise. The cutting-edge technology captures the attention of the international community.
Features of Ultra High-Definition TV
- The system uses a video format with 7680 x 4320 pixels (16 times higher than standard Hi-vision, NHK’s HDTV system) . This world’s first video system with 4000 scanning lines delivers ultra-clear, realistic three-dimensional images that can be achieved only by ultrahigh-definition technology.
- The individual scanning lines are not visually noticeable even when relatively close to the screen, reflecting the high resolution of the system. What’s more, a wider viewing angle conveys a stronger sense of a reality.
- The new 3-D audio system with 24 loudspeakers dramatically enhances presence.

[Scott Webster]

This was shown at NAB last year. IMO although very clear it wasn't what you would call aesthetically pleasing, more 'Ultra Video'. There was also terrible smear or ghosting in the moving images of the soccer game shown. Similar to a LCD TV showing sport. As for the 3D audio system that was just loud and was detrimental to images rather than enhancing the experience.

[Hoffmann Films]

I thought is sounded familiar, ultra HD sounds funny anyway.

[Scott Webster]

Further info on the Sony F23 from Studio Daily:
http://www.studiodaily.com/main/news/headlines/7484.html

Reading between the lines you're looking at somewhere between US150-200K which I believe is comparable with a Viper/SRW-1 Combo purchase.

Quote:
'Willox also announced that Sony intends to build an entire pipeline of affordable 4K equipment for production, post and exhibition, although there was no hard time frame. This big news was somewhat downplayed by Willox, who called it “a design goal.”

“We’re going down the path to change imager technology, to take a quantum leap in signal processing,” he said. “There is no time frame, and nothing will be shown at NAB ’07. We expect that you’ll first see something in late 2008 or early 2009.”'

Based on the above, I'm not sure their definition of affordable and mine, are the same.

Edited to reflect the price as posted on CML. Bandpro are indicating US150-175K. Yet to be confirmed. No listing on the Sony Broadcast site as yet.

[Graeme Nattress]

The NHK 8k stuff is amazing. But in the wrong way. It's amazingly high resolution, but it also shows that resolution is nothing without art.

The aesthetic of the 8k footage shows a purebred video heritage, with over-agressive edge enhancment (yuck) and low dynamic range (very contrasty and blown highlights). To me it looked like ultra-high quality, high resolution VHS. It's not my aesthetic, and almost the antithesis of what RED is about, which is: resolution + aesthetic = RED. There's no point to resolution if the image processing is so bad it makes the picture unwatchably bad.

Also, I saw a 4k uncompressed downconvert at IBC of the 8k footage, and it showed some severe aliassing and attrocious bayer reconstruction artifacts. Ouch.

Graeme

[REDHKSC]

If NHK's R&D ( STRL ) helps SONY on just 4K sensors which I think it will be a name " Soony " But not like now " SOON ONLY NOT YET ".

Sometimes, the labs under National TV Station are too aggressive on technical data.

Again, very interesting in Japanese products that 4K projector without 4K camera and 8K Camera without 8K Projector !!!

Stewart

[Mardi_Gras]

The NHK 8k stuff is amazing. But in the wrong way. It's amazingly high resolution, but it also shows that resolution is nothing without art.

The aesthetic of the 8k footage shows a purebred video heritage, with over-agressive edge enhancment (yuck) and low dynamic range (very contrasty and blown highlights). To me it looked like ultra-high quality, high resolution VHS. It's not my aesthetic, and almost the antithesis of what RED is about, which is: resolution + aesthetic = RED. There's no point to resolution if the image processing is so bad it makes the picture unwatchably bad.

Also, I saw a 4k uncompressed downconvert at IBC of the 8k footage, and it showed some severe aliassing and attrocious bayer reconstruction artifacts. Ouch.

Graeme
Graeme, your bluntness is so infectious I can help laughing out loud.

[Graeme Nattress]

I'm telling you what I'd tell anyone from NHK: 1million points for resolution, but minus 1 billion points for oversharping and clipped highlights.

Graeme

[Dominic Cochran]

And I think Panavision will be dubious about renting lenses to people that they are unfamiliar with - you would need a camera assistant who is familiar and trusted by them before they let a set of primos out the door.

Not true, all you need is (alot of) insurance and a check!

[Scott Webster]

Graeme, your bluntness is so infectious I can help laughing out loud.

Yes...I was trying to be polite!

[James T Mather]

Not true, all you need is (a lot of) insurance and a check!

Unfortunately Dominic, you're a little in the dark there. Panavision, in my experience, are reluctant to send gear out with technicians they are unfamiliar with - particularly high value items (perhaps its a little different with an old beat up s16 camera and 10-1 zoom - who knows?)

[Dominic Cochran]

Never had a problem, even when we first started our company 10 years ago, even though they were shipping to Detroit.

Perhaps you sounded shady, or "in the dark" on the phone?