Audio Controls

[Finner]

Hi this was brought up quite few months ago, maybe even dvx user days but what ended up being decided for audio control pots. I have not seen any pot controls on the camera and if audio control is all menu based I could see it being an issue for EFP and doc shooters. I mainly do production work 95% of the time so it will not effect me as much.

Just interested on how the audio control system will work?

[Kyle Presley]

Could it be an add on? Everything is modular thus far.

[Clayton Harper]

i was talking about making a usb-based mixer board that could control the pot levels. I think physical controls are a must.

Changing little menu settings is miserable and difficult to do under the gun. I am all for muscle memory.

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

I asked about this about six weeks ago and didn't get a real answer. There was some talk of using the menu to assign buttons to adjust the audio level; which is cool I suppose, assuming there are plenty of redundant buttons on the camera body :pinch:
It's a bit weird though eh. Maybe there's a master plan, everything else about the camera seems so well thought out. But if there is such a plan I wonder why no one can tell us.

[Nook Kim]

i was talking about making a usb-based mixer board that could control the pot levels. I think physical controls are a must.

Changing little menu settings is miserable and difficult to do under the gun. I am all for muscle memory.

Anything connected to the camera through USB/Firewire connections scare me,
except when the camera is not working. I don't consider USB port stable at all for
production use as, in this case, the mixer will have to stay connected for the
whole time during the shoot. Even on my laptop, I experience from time to
time where the USB connector gets loose. And I don't move around while
using my laptop. :detective2:

Regards,

[Bruce Allen]

The audio system of the Red has always confused me. I have posted about this a couple of times. It has some weird middle-of-the-road compromises. I'd much rather they'd either:

1. made the audio system truly first-class (eg proper controls, good levels meters, top-end DACs and pre-amps, 96khz recording)

or

2. Given you an external digital audio input (so you could feed the Red with a Sound Devices recorder / mixer's digital outs and have that pristine audio signal recorded sync'ed to picture - would have been great!).

or

3. Just gone cheap (make it 16bit 48khz, 2 inputs)

Maybe they are doing #3 but found it wouldn't cost much more to do 4 inputs and 24bit?

Your current best option for audio control is to send everything through an external mixer. But you have to go in analog, through the (presumably not top-flight) Red audio system, so you lose some of the benefits of your gear.

Maybe Red will allow for an upgrade of the audio system like they plan their sensor?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[jbeale]

Last I heard, sound recording wasn't even enabled on the prototype REDs. But until we're told otherwise, I think for pristine sound you have to do it like you've always done it for film... 2nd-system sound with your external recorder of choice. There's a lot of recorder models out there these days and prices are coming down.

[Mark L. Pederson]

the jury is still out on this one for me too -

very curious to see if they take this seriously -

I want it pristine - or not at all -

but, physical controls via wireless are 100% possible -

[Steve Sherrick]

Finner, you're right this was a topic of discussion that never got fully resolved. I was into the idea of recessed pots, but there were other opinions on this as well. Perhaps this has all been worked out behind the scenes and we just haven't heard much about it. Hopefully we are going to get the following.

4 channels of 24 bit 48K audio running clean, low noise mic pres and circuitry with peak limiters, 48v phantom power, and accurate metering.

Steve

[number6]

Last I heard, sound recording wasn't even enabled on the prototype REDs. But until we're told otherwise, I think for pristine sound you have to do it like you've always done it for film... 2nd-system sound with your external recorder of choice. There's a lot of recorder models out there these days and prices are coming down.

Been wanting to pose this question but was too shy to ask... am going to be doing a "bailing wire" shoot for my first (very) low budget projects. Also, have numerous mini dv cameras that I no longer use. Can I place those cameras discreetly around the set out of the shot, and record audio on four or five of them and after clean-up, mix them in Premiere CS3? Also, can H264 (or MPEG4 or whatever) audio be converted and used and remain synched with the action?

[Steve Sherrick]

Sure, but are you using the camera mics or will you be running external microphones to them? Depending on the camera models, the audio may or may not be that good. Also, make sure that you record 16 bit 48K, as some of those older DV cameras default to 12 bit 32k. As far as h264 or MPEG audio, as long as your app can support it, or you can convert it to the appropriate format for your audio mix, it shouldn't be a problem, unless the audio is at a different speed for some reason.

[number6]

Sure, but are you using the camera mics or will you be running external microphones to them? Depending on the camera models, the audio may or may not be that good. Also, make sure that you record 16 bit 48K, as some of those older DV cameras default to 12 bit 32k. As far as h264 or MPEG audio, as long as your app can support it, or you can convert it to the appropriate format for your audio mix, it shouldn't be a problem, unless the audio is at a different speed for some reason.

Thanks, Steve. Was planning to use externals on all, although not really high quality ones. Ebay stuff. The cameras I will have available (I never sell anything) are a couple of the old Canon mini DV models, a canon GL1 and a Canon XL1. Also, have 2 Sanyo Xacti Hd1 (and 1a). Will be videoing behind the scenes footage with a JVC GZ HD7u, but will not be using the audio from that one, except if background noise might be useful. Probably won't use audio from the REDS if the other setups will cover my audio needs.

edit: thanks for the heads-up on the bit rate.

[number6]

, it shouldn't be a problem, unless the audio is at a different speed for some reason.

This got me thinking... those other cameras only record at 30 fps and I was planning on shooting 24 fps. Will this make a diff?

[Keith Nealy]

You may be in for a nightmare in post with all those DV sources.

Make sure you do an audible slate that you can use to sync them all up in post. If you are using the video portion for sync you can fire a flash that all cameras can see and then sync that up in post.

As Steve said, make sure all cameras are set for 15 bit 48k and use external mics as you might get camera noise.

Just a thought. A sound guy with a mixer who had control over a bunch of set mikes run to one or two tracks would give you more control and better quality sound AND much less headache in post.

Aloha,

Keith

[Keith Nealy]

Yes. All the more reason to use a good sound guy/girl who knows their stuff.

Just so I understand you better, from a creative point of view, what is the purpose of all those wild sound sources?

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I would just buy a few portable minidisk recorders.

They're relatively inexpensive and probably have significantly better ADCs than your camcorder.

[number6]

You may be in for a nightmare in post with all those DV sources.

Make sure you do an audible slate that you can use to sync them all up in post. If you are using the video portion for sync you can fire a flash that all cameras can see and then sync that up in post.

As Steve said, make sure all cameras are set for 15 bit 48k and use external mics as you might get camera noise.

Just a thought. A sound guy with a mixer who had control over a bunch of set mikes run to one or two tracks would give you more control and better quality sound AND much less headache in post.

Aloha,

Keith

Yeah, the flash to synch sounds, sounds like a good idea. Had intended to leave lens caps on all cameras and just record sound, but I guess the quality of the sound would not be affected by recording video too. I've got plenty of spare mini DV tapes and quite a few Secure Digital cards for the Xacti cameras which actually do fill up faster when recording video as opposed to just audio.

Just wondering... would an audible beep work as a synching device?

[number6]

Yes. All the more reason to use a good sound guy/girl who knows their stuff.

Just so I understand you better, from a creative point of view, what is the purpose of all those wild sound sources?

Shoestring production. Cash strapped. Pulled too many bank robberies in the past (signed notes) to get money that way. Will make do. Always have.

edit: maybe I misunderstood... you did say from a creative point of view. My reasoning is to have enough tracks to do 5.1 or maybe even 7.1 surround sound. Probably won't mix it as such for any festival entries, but will have the sound available should any distributor want the flexibility of re-editing that way.

[number6]

I would just buy a few portable minidisk recorders.

They're relatively inexpensive and probably have significantly better ADCs than your camcorder.

Gavin, am unfamiliar with the minidisk recorders. Do they have external mic inputs? Do they require special recording media?

The reason I am using the available cameras is because I already have them and the media to capture the sound on. Frees up limited funds for other things.

[readyandaction]

sounds like quite the mixtures of formats and production quality. (?)
you are planning on using the red on this... when do you plan on receiving your camera? (or rather... which reservation number are you? )

[number6]

sounds like quite the mixtures of formats and production quality. (?)
you are planning on using the red on this... when do you plan on receiving your camera? (or rather... which reservation number are you? )

I don't know. Optioned one in late April and another in early June.

[Finner]

This has gone way off topic.

As far as the audio system the way you descibe #6 it is way to much work and will slow you down a ton. It's a terrible option just hire a sound person.

Back to the topic. It would be nice to hear from someone at red about the audio control situation the camera has been given. If it does not have designated pots or controls I see this camera being a bigger pain to EFP/ENG and doc shooters then it would be worth. Please someone at red comment on this.

[Teague Kennedy]

It would be great if anyone from Red would chime in here. I am wanting to use on-board recording (I often times use a lecro wireless and/or shotgun plugged directly into my cam for doc work) I don't need it to be 24 bit necessarily, but I need quality audio, and obviously some control. Anyone?

[Michael Mann]

Yes, please, RED team, give us information about the audio control!
Solid Sound Devices-type of gain control (pop-up potentiometers) are adequate for the RED. Pure menu based gain control would be quite a drawback.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Something like this would do it. They're usually less than $80 and media is a buck or two a pop for an hour. I use them for running around recording foley however I could easily see a boom operator popping one into his front pocket. I would imagine the results turning out much better than trying to keep a small pile of DV camcorders in line.

Edit: Whoops link... http://www.amazon.com/Sony-MZ-N420D-Net-Walkman-Blue/dp/B0001Y74FE/ref=pd_sim_dbs_etk_ce_av__3/104-9132429-6863118?ie=UTF8&qid=1184828467&sr=1-7

[martinnoweck]

Been wanting to pose this question but was too shy to ask... am going to be doing a "bailing wire" shoot for my first (very) low budget projects. Also, have numerous mini dv cameras that I no longer use. Can I place those cameras discreetly around the set out of the shot, and record audio on four or five of them and after clean-up, mix them in Premiere CS3? Also, can H264 (or MPEG4 or whatever) audio be converted and used and remain synched with the action?

number6,

a) with this setup you will get a lot of phase-cancellation problems, so why don't do it the easier way: get a directional microphone (mono) as close as possible to your talent, record the sound as dry as possible and do the 5.1 mix in post?

b) most of miniDV cameras i know don't use very good A/D converters

kind regards,
martin

[number6]

Something like this would do it. They're usually less than $80 and media is a buck or two a pop for an hour. I use them for running around recording foley however I could easily see a boom operator popping one into his front pocket. I would imagine the results turning out much better than trying to keep a small pile of DV camcorders in line.

Edit: Whoops link... http://www.amazon.com/Sony-MZ-N420D-Net-Walkman-Blue/dp/B0001Y74FE/ref=pd_sim_dbs_etk_ce_av__3/104-9132429-6863118?ie=UTF8&qid=1184828467&sr=1-7

Gavin, sounds interesting, especially if it has a useable built in mic. Couldn't find a mic jack in the specs, but some rival brand may have such a capability. Like the size, battery life, and hide-a-bility of it though.

[number6]

number6,

a) with this setup you will get a lot of phase-cancellation problems, so why don't do it the easier way: get a directional microphone (mono) as close as possible to your talent, record the sound as dry as possible and do the 5.1 mix in post?

b) most of miniDV cameras i know don't use very good A/D converters

kind regards,
martin

Just wondering if that would give me the ability to get distinct sounds from around the scene. May not be considered good moviemaking, but I want the option to place subtle emphasis on parts of a scene using sound in post. I suppose some would call it "reality Foley".

But Finner was right (pains me to say it) in his last post. This has gotten way off his original topic, so I will close this part of the audio discussion and return everyone to the regularly scheduled topic.

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Number6 you are clearly either crazy or a genius or both :usd:

No answer from RED team yet huh.. I suspect it's they've made a big mistake with the sound and now they don't know what to do. for doco/eng work you NEED at least one professional sound port (as found on your average prosumer dv camera) you don't NEED 4.. for film work and much doco/eng work the sound is of course recorded to a HD recorder (l use the sound devices 744..). But having pro sound on the camera can be really useful on any film and I usually use both options depending on the circumstances. I'd take two mic level imputs with real physical knobs to change the level, and a digital input please.

We can't be saying anything here that Jim and the team don't know already!

[combatentropy]

From pictures on Red's and news web sites, I've gotten a pretty good look at each side of the camera, and I have seen no audio pots to speak of. Most likely audio levels are in a menu.

In that case, would attaching something like this work?

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/2100_1184854011.jpg

(Sound Devices MixPre)

It would not be ideal. You would have to be careful to attach it securely and keep whatever short cables you run out of the way -- with gaffer's tape, twist-ties, etc.

All in all the Red camera is a well-engineered machine that has exceeded the expectations of us all and even famous and talented (and no doubt demanding) Hollywood professionals. I just hope the next generation of models from Red, Silicon Imaging, and others realize that a cinema camera and an ENG camera are not mutually exclusive. A movie-quality camera can be lightweight, shoulder-wieldable, and ergonomic for making quick, run-and-gun adjustments (The Red is 80% there). And ENG can be simpler. They don't need gain, white balance, and all those other crazy buttons because you can do them renderlessly in post now -- or live, back in the truck. Nor do they need three CCDs because Red has clearly shown us that Bayer is quite adequate.

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

with respect,
no it wouldn't work amigo

It's like the DALSA: "carry half the house around to record your data" works but is shit compared to the RED drive.

I'm sure the RED team have something up their sleeves. Like you I am full of respect for the camera they have created, but audio wise the machine is very badly designed it would seem.

Come on guys: post here to prove me wrong...:innocent:

[Steve Sherrick]

Number 6, start up a differnt thread elsewhere and we can continue to comment on your situation. I think in the end, you may want to explore having a qualified sound person on your shoot and I'll explain why it will be technically superior and in the long run, much cheaper.

Back on topic here. Having audio gain control buried in menu will not be good for run and gun shooting. For feature work and other high end productions it may be fine because their will be a sound team that will be using mixers and hard disk recorders and once they align the tones with the camera they can pretty much focus on their own thing and the audio will be under control. But someone who is trying to use this camera in a one man band scenario is going to have their hands full with the visuals and having to go into a menu for audio could be a problem.

Reason for having 4 channels: More of a luxury then a necessity, but I could see it being used to isolate actors/interviews for more control in post or if there is no mixer available. The more I think about it though, I'd rather see 2 channels with physical pots then 4 channels if it came down to choosing.

I know there has been talk of remote possibilities, i.e. adjusting audio levels from an external device that gets kooked up to the camera. Any more info on that kind of arrangement?

Steve

[soundoc]

with respect,
no it wouldn't work amigo

It's like the DALSA: "carry half the house around to record your data" works but is shit compared to the RED drive.

I'm sure the RED team have something up their sleeves. Like you I am full of respect for the camera they have created, but audio wise the machine is very badly designed it would seem.

Come on guys: post here to prove me wrong...:innocent:

I agree, I think that the audio controls will be menu driven only because of Ted's background, it would make sense. I don't know about everyone else but I haven't had a camera yet that had a good mic pre. I was planing on off camera audio for main audio and using the camera audio as backup and possibly for ambient audio.

[Steve Sherrick]

Yes the RED Supergrip can be used to adjust audio levels. That's mainly for the run and gun single operator application, at the other extreme is dual system sound where of course there is an external mixer.

There is also audio level adjustment from the multi-function joystick / pot on the back of the camera, but if you must have audio level adjustment available to a not sound guy / not cameraman, there is always the option of writing an app for a PDA and adjusting it via wireless....

That is from Stuart back in april. Maybe things have changed.

Finding quality mic pres in a camera is hard to do. Cost, implementation are factors.

Steve

[Steve Gibby]

Some comments by Stuart English about the audio on RED One:

"All four audio inputs are mic/level switchable

All inputs support 48V phantom power for mics

The camera can suppress any active cooling (and hence sound) during a take

RED-DRIVE and RED-RAM and RED-Flash are all fan-less designs

Each audio input is sampled at 48KHz at 16 or 24-bit depth

We have considered methods for pre-digitized audio capture, but we have no news to share at this moment."

Stuart English
1/20/07
REDUser
http://205.234.134.160/forum/showthread.php?t=328



"This audio levels question has been answered before …of course you can do that.

There are menus to control audio level of course, but those map to a physical input device - primarily the joystick, or you can assign individuals channels to other physical controls on the camera body, or to a SuperGrip. Via USB or wireless there is the possibility of other physical expressions for multi-channel audio level control.

The other comment I would offer is a 24 bit 48KHz audio recording has WAY more dynamic range than your normal 16 bit 48KHz recording, just as 12 bit RAW has WAY more dynamic range than 8 bits 4:2:2 video recording."

(confirmed in next post on that page that audio level info will be available in the EVF)

Stuart English
6/15/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2831&page=4


Nothing has been stated as being "final specifications" yet...

[martinnoweck]

Gibby,

you are a master of archiving!

thanks,
martin

[Finner]

Thanks for that Gibby.


There are menus to control audio level of course, but those map to a physical input device - primarily the joystick, or you can assign individuals channels to other physical controls on the camera body, or to a SuperGrip. Via USB or wireless there is the possibility of other physical expressions for multi-channel audio level control.


Too bad though standard audio pot contols would have been much simplier and functional.

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Exactly Finner..

And you can hear the reviews now eh: "We can't give this amazing new camera 5 out of 5 because the sound controls etc etc". It's an oversight, and I'll take bets the RED 2 will have proper audio controls. I wonder much the Supergrip is, when will it be released, and what it weighs.

[Scott Webster]

[I]"This audio levels question has been answered before …of course you can do that.

There are menus to control audio level of course, but those map to a physical input device - primarily the joystick,


What is/where is the 'joystick' on the camera? (first time I've seen that mentioned) Is that part of the back panel controls? (checked Anders sticky, they haven't been tagged yet)

[Finner]

Exactly Finner..

And you can hear the reviews now eh: "We can't give this amazing new camera 5 out of 5 because the sound controls etc etc". It's an oversight, and I'll take bets the RED 2 will have proper audio controls.

These have been my exact thoughts on this for a while now. Luckily I rarely have to deal with audio but for guys like TJ this will become a pull your hair out kind of thing and from my mental image of TJ I am not sure if he has much hair to spare.

[Steve Gibby]

What is/where is the 'joystick' on the camera? (first time I've seen that mentioned) Is that part of the back panel controls? (checked Anders sticky, they haven't been tagged yet)

Yes, it is part of the back panel controls, or at least that was RED's stated plan as of 4/20/07:

"There is also audio level adjustment from the multi-function joystick / pot on the back of the camera"

Stuart English
4/20/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1801&highlight=joystick

[Steve Gibby]

Finner and Fergus,

What's the point of passing judgement on the audio specifications of RED One when the final specifications for audio haven't even been finalized and released? Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to reserve your opinions until that time?

[Bruce Allen]

Finner and Fergus,

What's the point of passing judgement on the audio specifications of RED One when the final specifications for audio haven't even been finalized and released? Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to reserve your opinions until that time?

Because if the specs haven't been finalized and we let Red know that the current setup is a little worrisome, then there's still a chance they'll listen to the thread and improve their design?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Steve Gibby]

Because if the specs haven't been finalized and we let Red know that the current setup is a little worrisome, then there's still a chance they'll listen to the thread and improve their design?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Yeah, except a quick use of the Search tool will reveal that every issue raised in this thread has been raised repeatedly for the past several months now, including by some of the posters on this thread. RED has been listening all along throughout the development process for RED One and incorporating what they felt was necessary, workable, and cost-effective. I'd guess they'll do the same thing with audio. Hammering them time and again on the same points isn't necessarily going to achieve anything. I know all these guys on the RED Team personally and they're a bunch of smart, hard working guys who actually listen to the target market during a camera development process - a novel concept in this industry. That said, IMO they'll incorporate what they can and they'll also have some good reasons why they don't use certain suggestions.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Yeah, except a quick use of the Search tool will reveal that every issue raised in this thread has been raised repeatedly for the past several months now, including by some of the posters on this thread.

Any news on the RED Mini!?!!?

I kid I kid. :innocent:

[Steve Gibby]

Any news on the RED Mini!?!!?

I kid I kid. :innocent:

:angry01::gun: :rip_1:

[Bruce Allen]

Sorry Gibby, I guess I am still hoping for Red's sound department equivalent of Graeme Nattress to come forward and explain why they are doing things the way they are in a similarly open, compelling, eloquent and polite manner to the way Graeme explained Red's imaging philosophy. Ah well, no matter!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[tj williams]

Finner I'm actually quite hairy and look at least as good in tights as your ikon!! well maybe not quite as good?

At NAB mention was made that the accessory grip handle would have a control of audio levels and that they would show in the VF. So single ops can set levels with a button to rotate thru the channels and pressure switch on the grip handle to adjust levels!!

[Jeff Kilgroe]

At NAB mention was made that the accessory grip handle would have a control of audio levels and that they would show in the VF. So single ops can set levels with a button to rotate thru the channels and pressure switch on the grip handle to adjust levels!!

That sounds great. Would be nice if they had the controls on the side of the camera too.. I wish RED would spill a few beans about the audio controls. I'm not too worried about it because, like Gibby mentioned, these concerns have come up many times in the past. Even back in the DVXUSER RED forum days and RED has been very good about listening to public input. I'm confident that they will deliver a very functional audio solution.

I suppose if they don't, a giant WTF will be in order. :huh:

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

You're right of course Gibby, fair enough.. we shouldn't review a camera we haven't got our hands on yet.

You'll remember a few weeks ago there were a lot of concerns voiced here about there being no T-stops on the RED lenses, and Jim himself posted and engaged with that argument. The result was T-stops on the lenses. Hurrah!

You're right, we have been bellyachin' about the audio for months, but the RED team don't appear to be listening and that's a bit worrying.

I mean I don't know your work, but you clearly are a very experienced professional. Doesn't the audio set up strike you as a bit weird?
For example:

The more the merrier of course, but why would you need four mic level inputs on a camera? If you've got four mics on the go then surely you'd have a sound recordist, and they'd have a recorder of some sort.

Why no digital audio in?

Recording 24bit, setting the levels way low and boosting them in post would work but it's a pain in post and you're editor is going to hate you.

The beauty of standard audio faders is that they can be minutely lovingly adjusted mid-dialogue, or crash faded mid-explosion. It's a very hard to make buttons work like that.
I could go on..

But we all know this stuff already and I'm repeating myself, so enough already..:clown2:

Perhaps it'll all be alright on the night:biggrin:

[Finner]

Yeah, except a quick use of the Search tool will reveal that every issue raised in this thread has been raised repeatedly for the past several months now, including by some of the posters on this thread. RED has been listening all along throughout the development process for RED One and incorporating what they felt was necessary, workable, and cost-effective. I'd guess they'll do the same thing with audio. Hammering them time and again on the same points isn't necessarily going to achieve anything. I know all these guys on the RED Team personally and they're a bunch of smart, hard working guys who actually listen to the target market during a camera development process - a novel concept in this industry. That said, IMO they'll incorporate what they can and they'll also have some good reasons why they don't use certain suggestions.

I totally agree that RED has been great at listening but disagree that this is an easy quick thing to find info on with the search tool or that red has addressed and answered this question. I have used the search tool for a lot of things and been able to find the consise info that I was looking for but not so with this audio pots question. Heck I believe I started the last thread about it months ago watched it very close and never got much of an answer. Red has not given an explanation of how the audio system would work and I remember Stuart asking me a lot of questions some even were PM questions but no real description of how the audio controls and system would work was ever given that I saw or could find.


PS- TJ it's good to hear you are so hairy. I bet you are one hell of a sexy beast.

[Shawn Nelson]

It's interesting that Red hasn't chimed in here yet.

I think all ya'll are being too hard on Red. Red is not trying to be all things to all people. They have fully admited that they are not creating the ultimate solution up front and are leaving room for 3rd party tools. I am not at all worried about the audio not having external pots. You just run the miniXLRs into the full size ones of a mixer. Maybe they'll come out with an Audio Module that could be small and plug in via usb and control the audio ports that way. Shit, that would be so easy, there's no reason for it to cost more than $100.

But I strongly disagree with the people who think Red should have only had a digital in. Most mixers don't have a digital out! So how the hell do you propose to feed Red a digital signal?

[ericyoung]

...Red is not trying to be all things to all people. They have fully admitted that they are not creating the ultimate solution up front and are leaving room for 3rd party tools. I am not at all worried about the audio not having external pots...

But they ARE trying to cater for more shooting styles than a controlled studio shoot.

Built-in operational pots for at least two of the channels is a necessity if you're doing minimalist single person shooting. If you have to keep reassigning a channel to a control in order to change the level, it's going to be mighty frustrating using it in a run and gun situation. You just want to grab a control knob without having to first check you've got it assigned to the correct audio.

Something as basic as this should not be an additional purchase. It's not hard or expensive to include a couple of tough longlife audio pots.

I'm certainly keeping positive that Red haven't forgotten about the importance of the audio side too.

[Obin Olson]

I just hope it has simple pots like an hvx or any other pro camera and a limiter

[JohnF]

As mentioned earlier:



4 channels of 24 bit 48K audio running clean, low noise mic pres and circuitry with peak limiters, 48v phantom power, and accurate metering.

Steve

Yes please! My exact request also. Though I might also ask for an option of onscreen audio metering. (alongside exposure meters etc a small bargraph at the bottom of the screen with peaking indication)

I must say that menu driven audio controls sound like a bit of a nightmare.
If this is to be the case there must be limiters onboard to prevent peaking as for people shooting docs/ENG fast changing situations do not give time for one to fiddle with menus. Limiters would provide a safety margin allowing time for operators to adjust levels.

And please onboard/per channel limiters not AGC!

I often scratch my head in both wonder and frustration when I look at audio recording for filming. Why is it so bad when compared to the actual sound equipment market? They are miles ahead of us in terms of design and flexibility and price.
When I compare a video camera's 16bit 48k recording to the same on my cheapo portable DAT the quality difference is amazing(using the built in A to D's). How does the filming world get it so wrong? (with such regularity)

JohnF

[Bruce Allen]

When I compare a video camera's 16bit 48k recording to the same on my cheapo portable DAT the quality difference is amazing(using the built in A to D's). How does the filming world get it so wrong? (with such regularity)


I can think of three reasons:
1. It's damn hard to get a totally clean sound when your sound electronics are surrounded by all of the other camera electronics.

2. Camera engineers and camera company bosses think video is cooler than audio. The good sound guys & gals are working in the audio gear world where they are appreciated more.

3. People often don't buy a camera because of sound specs - well, it's the DP buying the camera, not the audio person usually ;) I know that the DVX had a lot better audio circuitry than the XL1 and the PD150... but how many other people care? Manufacturers don't seem to feel that they have to give accurate statistics in terms of distortion, signal-to-noise ratio, etc. Red is changing that for video (they're trying hard to actually stick to their signal-to-noise ratio projections, bravo - this is an industry-changing practice that I really like!), let's hope they do it for audio too one day.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[JohnF]

Whilst I largely agree with your points Bruce I'll comment here:

Point 1: Faraday cage around audio electronics - not difficult or costly. Plus have you seen the amount of electonics in some audio kit? Some mixers and recording gear are mostly computer! (plus motors in the case of Harddisk R's, DAT's, minidisk etc)

2: Someone should point out that "Talkies" are going to be big business!

3: Let's hope RED do it with RED 1!!!

JohnF

[Steve Gibby]

Finner,

Your thread opening post was:

“Hi this was brought up quite few months ago, maybe even dvx user days but what ended up being decided for audio control pots. I have not seen any pot controls on the camera and if audio control is all menu based I could see it being an issue for EFP and doc shooters. I mainly do production work 95% of the time so it will not effect me as much.

Just interested on how the audio control system will work?”

You expressed concern that RED's proposed audio controls would be all menu driven, with no manual control in the form of pots, and that it would be a hindrance for run ‘n gun shooters (EFP and doc). My point is that a quick use of the Search tool could have answered your concern with these 4/20/07 and 6/15/07 answers provided by Stuart English:

“Yes the RED Supergrip can be used to adjust audio levels. That's mainly for the run and gun single operator application, at the other extreme is dual system sound where of course there is an external mixer.

There is also audio level adjustment from the multi-function joystick / pot on the back of the camera, but if you must have audio level adjustment available to a not sound guy / not cameraman, there is always the option of writing an app for a PDA and adjusting it via wireless....”

Stuart English
4/20/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1801&highlight=joystick


“This audio levels question has been answered before …of course you can do that.

There are menus to control audio level of course, but those map to a physical input device - primarily the joystick, or you can assign individuals channels to other physical controls on the camera body, or to a SuperGrip. Via USB or wireless there is the possibility of other physical expressions for multi-channel audio level control.”

Stuart English
6/15/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2831&page=4


--------------------------------

So, on 4/40 and 6/15 Stuart English directly answered the concerns you voiced on 7/18 when you opened this current thread. A quick search would have revealed that.

Most of what I produce/direct/shoot is run ‘n gun EFP style. For that, I see no problem with being able to physically adjust audio on the run with a choice of either the joystick on the back of the camera, the controls on the SuperGrip, or both. Stuart made it quite clear in his statements that audio controls was not something that you’d have to search in menus for each time you wanted to change levels.

Do you see where I’m coming from on this? You opened a new thread voicing concerns that have already been addressed many times over several month’s time, and field workflow solutions to those concerns have already been explained by RED Team previously – which I’ve quoted above. Then this thread bloomed out into an audio complaint session that went way beyond the concerns you voiced in your thread-opening post.

We’re all anxious for answers – but I think we also need to pay attention to the answers that have been given already.


-----------------------------


Fergus,

Yeah, I’m a 30-year professional veteran of several hundred national television programs – producer, director, editor, DP, and cinematographer. I got that experience level by paying attention to every aspect of production – including audio. Audio is absolutely critical to every production of every size. In fact, IMO it’s the bedrock starting point for every production. That said, I’m happy with the physical controls (joystick & SuperGrip) RED has proposed, menu controls for setup, and remote control options for audio they’ve proposed. Your foregone conclusion that RED has developed a great camera but somehow has dropped the ball on audio, before the final audio specs are announced, is very premature judgment IMO.



--------------------------



Again everybody, RED has listened throughout the development process, and IMO they’ve listened to the audio input too. Nobody is telling them anything on this thread that they haven’t heard from you before. The prototype cameras are in beta testing and I’d guess the specs should be finalized sometime soon. Hopefully the audio specs will easily enable the same broad range of cine style and EFP style production genres that the rest of the camera will. How about if we reserve judgment on that until the specs are finalized and we’re able to test them out….

[tj williams]

Gibby
You should write a star thread at the top of each of these about using the search. You are the very master of searching. I have also searched, and not found the very things you found? I had to scratch my head and remember the conversation I had with Stuart at NAB to remember the stuff about the Super grip, and it was incomplete. Hey all this is much better than trying to set levels on a Betacam while its on your shoulder.... which might lead to dislocation of the shoulder or elbow...
ps Finner Hairy or no I am a sexy beast for my advanced years! just not much of a librarian, which is fun given that my film studies program was housed under libriarianship. (sp?).... Don't ask why????

[JohnF]

So the Supergrip sounds like it is the accessory to have.

I know the RED team are concentrating on getting the camera ready before announcing further details as said earlier on another thread:


We'll have some more data on the RED SuperGrip and RED MOTOR accessories in the near future. At the moment we are focussed on finishing up the mechanical engineering and camera control software integration.

But for the more doc/ENG orientated shooters my spider-senses detect a thirst for more info.

I suggest that a basic annoucement of what the Supergrips possible functions(continuing the modularity of RED) are likely to be, subject to design changes, will be helpful for some.

Knowing that the menu driven sound controls are remotely accessible via the Supergrip has lifted my concerns. Infact thumbs up as it means that users that are short of a bob or two can still use the camera to the full - if a little slower.

JohnF

[Stuart English]

As commented, most of this has been covered in earlier threads, but in summary :

We get the point of the question - where are the discreet sound pots? We continue to work on a variety of solutions to that, but the answers for now are a) Joystick and b) Supergrip and c) external mixer

[Bruce Allen]

Thanks Stuart.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Finner]

My point is that a quick use of the Search tool could have answered your concern with these 4/20/07 and 6/15/07 answers provided by Stuart English:

So, on 4/40 and 6/15 Stuart English directly answered the concerns you voiced on 7/18 when you opened this current thread. A quick search would have revealed that.
Hi Steve

I have been on this site for a while and feel I have learned to use the tools on the site fairly well and I did use the search tool before putting this up and finding answers was niether fast nor easy. In fact I found nothing thus the reason I posted this thread. Like TJ mentioned I feel your skill with using search options is much better then most of us. So we are not lazy just not nearly as skilled at it as you are.


Most of what I produce/direct/shoot is run ‘n gun EFP style. For that, I see no problem with being able to physically adjust audio on the run with a choice of either the joystick on the back of the camera, the controls on the SuperGrip, or both. Stuart made it quite clear in his statements that audio controls was not something that you’d have to search in menus for each time you wanted to change levels.

I do see possible problems with it. Every camera I have worked with that has audio contols has them on the smart side thus they are something a shooter gets use to using with their left hand (some are badly designed and are put directly where your head will be when shooting hand held which sucks but better then on the back of a camera.). So if you imagine an EFP/ENG red on your shoulder with a HD zoom controled lens and your right hand through the lens strap/zoom rocker on that lens. Now physically acting like you have that set up on your shoulder try and reach behind your head with your left hand to acurately adjust the joystick. When I do it I quickly feel like I would have to become a contortionist to achieve audio contol.


Do you see where I’m coming from on this? You opened a new thread voicing concerns that have already been addressed many times over several month’s time, and field workflow solutions to those concerns have already been explained by RED Team previously – which I’ve quoted above. Then this thread bloomed out into an audio complaint session that went way beyond the concerns you voiced in your thread-opening post.

IMHO I feel that this concern has not been addressed many times over and a good workflow solution has not been given from the quotes you listed. Also I do not have control over others making it an audio complaint session. I feel if people make something a point of complaint and post their concerns it is not challenging red or calling them down rather just concern over what could be a problem.



We’re all anxious for answers – but I think we also need to pay attention to the answers that have been given already.

I feel that I have paid very close attention to answers given on this topic. I just think the answers and solutions given have been very little and quite poor.




In the end we are all striving for the same goal here. I look at this forum as a team that comes together and express concerns about some things and excitement about other things. As lucky as we are to have Jim be open about the development of the camera with all of us Jim is also very lucky to have all of us as pretty much a free focus test group for the camera. I read an article in a news paper a few months ago about a gold mine company up here in Canada that owned land that geologists had proven had gold on it but were having trouble figuring out the best place to mine for it. They also were almost out of money and could not hire the appropriate engineers needed to find the best solution. So the president of the company pulled in a bright 22 year old that had recently graduated and been hired by the company and asked for his opinion. The young employee suggested they go online open all their current information, studies and findings and offer a $25,000 prize to the person that could offer the best soulution to their problem of where and how to mine. The response they got was worldwide and larger and better then they ever could have imagined and worth over 40 times the amount they gave away as they got responses from some of the best minds from that field in the world. That company now has one of the best goldmines in the country and is very rich.

I personally do not see praise or complaints as good or bad but just as information. I try and run my bussiness the same way and even though the complaints sting a little they are often the most valuable information I get. So yes I see this as a bit of a complaint RED is getting but it is also more then likely some very valuable information.

Just my thoughts.
Daren

[Finner]

I got a phone call in the middle of my post and just finished it to see Stuart had posted in the meantime.

Thanks for that Stuart. It seems to me that the joystick control on the back of the camera would be really hard to get at with the camera on your shoulder. Also I see possible problems with one joystick control if you are running 2 audio inputs.

[tj williams]

Hi Finner
I think the best hope for shoulder cam single ops is that the super grip has seperate sliders for all the audio channels. So that we can make adjustments with the opposite hand on sliders which are locked unlocked with a button or otherwise out of the way of the zoom etc controls which are operated with the right hand. This will be a necessary accessory for using the camera in that way.

[Steve Gibby]

I have been on this site for a while and feel I have learned to use the tools on the site fairly well and I did use the search tool before putting this up and finding answers was niether fast nor easy. In fact I found nothing thus the reason I posted this thread. Like TJ mentioned I feel your skill with using search options is much better then most of us. So we are not lazy just not nearly as skilled at it as you are.

Like you, I’m happy to help and contribute. This is a community and everyone helps everyone else.


I do see possible problems with it. Every camera I have worked with that has audio contols has them on the smart side thus they are something a shooter gets use to using with their left hand (some are badly designed and are put directly where your head will be when shooting hand held which sucks but better then on the back of a camera.). So if you imagine an EFP/ENG red on your shoulder with a HD zoom controled lens and your right hand through the lens strap/zoom rocker on that lens. Now physically acting like you have that set up on your shoulder try and reach behind your head with your left hand to acurately adjust the joystick. When I do it I quickly feel like I would have to become a contortionist to achieve audio contol.

Virtually all EFP style cameras have the audio pot controls on the left side of the camera, and the XLR taps on the back. With this arrangement, there is no adjustment of audio levels when shoulder held, without taking the camera off your shoulder and physically adjusting the pots. So if we always have to take a camera off our shoulders to adjust audio levels in the traditional EFP configuration, what is the big difference between doing that on the side and simply doing it on the back of RED One with a joystick? If the camera configuration is using a SuperGrip, then adjustment of audio levels is possible without taking the camera off your shoulder, because RED has confirmed that that the audio level meters will be viewable in the EVF, and presumably in the LCD also. In summary, the worst I have to do is take the camera off my shoulder if I’m not using a SuperGrip, just as I’ve always had to with traditional cameras, and the real improvement is in using the SuperGrip, where I can leave the camera on my shoulder and simply adjust the audio levels while I view them in the EVF or LCD.


IMHO I feel that this concern has not been addressed many times over and a good workflow solution has not been given from the quotes you listed. Also I do not have control over others making it an audio complaint session. I feel if people make something a point of complaint and post their concerns it is not challenging red or calling them down rather just concern over what could be a problem.

I’ve been able to extrapolate the field workflow from the info Stuart previously gave previously, as I outlined in my answer above. I understand that you have no control over what others post, but you did open a thread asking questions that had already been answered, and you know how threads often are here – brushfires of rampant threadjacking.



I feel that I have paid very close attention to answers given on this topic. I just think the answers and solutions given have been very little and quite poor.

They gave what info they felt they could through the process. It’s their camera system and we’re privileged to get the opportunity to give input progressively throughout the process. When all is said and done, they have the right to dish out the info on their schedule…not ours. I think the point is that they’ve listened real well and there was no indication that they stopped listening when it came to audio. There are periodic times in the motion media industry when new technology enables to move beyond the comfort zone of how we’ve always done things and adjust to new ways of doing them. IMO the use of the SuperGrip and joystick to adjust audio are one of those times.



In the end we are all striving for the same goal here. I look at this forum as a team that comes together and express concerns about some things and excitement about other things. As lucky as we are to have Jim be open about the development of the camera with all of us Jim is also very lucky to have all of us as pretty much a free focus test group for the camera.

I couldn’t agree more! The development process of RED One and its lenses/accessories has been, and continues to be a mutually beneficial symbiosis. We’ve collectively given vast amounts of input, and RED has sifted through that and incorporated what was reasonable, cost-effective, and necessary as they developed what was targeted as a scalable, flexible, and affordable camera system. That process is still ongoing. When the camera, lenses, and accessories finally ship, and we use them, we can smile knowing that we have collectively and individually played a key role in the development of it.


I personally do not see praise or complaints as good or bad but just as information. I try and run my bussiness the same way and even though the complaints sting a little they are often the most valuable information I get. So yes I see this as a bit of a complaint RED is getting but it is also more then likely some very valuable information.

Praise or complaints is valuable feedback, but repetitive praise or complaints about issues that have already been noted, addressed, and/or solved, are time and energy wasters, both for the issuers and the receivers. With a small staff and a huge overall project, I think RED Team has been extended way beyond the limits of human endurance throughout this development process. The more attention their small staff has to pay to repetitive issues that have already been noted and addressed, the more it slows them down in getting the development cycle completed, the production cycle started, and the cameras/lenses/accessories into the end user’s hands. At some point they have to quit the development of the equipment and send the specs out for production. There will undoubtedly be bugs and things that could have been done better. Hindsight is always 20/20.

You were invited to be a part of the LART team because you have extensive experience, an inquisitive mind, and can analyze the issues involved with the design and use of camera systems. Your experience and mind will be a good asset to the LART team. Let’s press on from here and put this discussion behind us!

------------------

P.S. - Today is me and my wife's anniversary and I need to bail out of here! I remembered it this morning with a "Happy Anniversary!" and a long walk on the beach by our house. I sneeked away to post here, but it's time for us to celebrate for most of the rest of today. I'll catch up with everyone later...

[ericyoung]

...Virtually all EFP style cameras have the audio pot controls on the left side of the camera, and the XLR taps on the back. With this arrangement, there is no adjustment of audio levels when shoulder held, without taking the camera off your shoulder and physically adjusting the pots. So if we always have to take a camera off our shoulders to adjust audio levels in the traditional EFP configuration, what is the big difference between doing that on the side and simply doing it on the back of RED One with a joystick?...

Well that sounds like an argument for moving the pots further forward than the traditional EFP style camera. The difference is two pots which you know are each controlling a known channel - no thought required. One joystick means we may have to check what channel it is assigned to.


...If the camera configuration is using a SuperGrip, then adjustment of audio levels is possible without taking the camera off your shoulder, because RED has confirmed that that the audio level meters will be viewable in the EVF, and presumably in the LCD also...the real improvement is in using the SuperGrip, where I can leave the camera on my shoulder and simply adjust the audio levels while I view them in the EVF or LCD...

Yes, which is great for Red buyers with deep pockets or who want every accessory, but not so great for buyers already stretching their finances and where every extra option is another thing adding weight & bulk, time to rig, cost etc. I would probably get a SuperGrip, but I don't want to be forced to buy it and always rig it to control something as fundamental as riding audio levels on a couple of channels.


...I think the point is that they’ve listened real well and there was no indication that they stopped listening when it came to audio. There are periodic times in the motion media industry when new technology enables to move beyond the comfort zone of how we’ve always done things and adjust to new ways of doing them. IMO the use of the SuperGrip and joystick to adjust audio are one of those times...Praise or complaints is valuable feedback, but repetitive praise or complaints about issues that have already been noted, addressed, and/or solved, are time and energy wasters, both for the issuers and the receivers...

No argument that the Red team has listened to the max. And it's great to have new options, but if all you want is the minimum basics? New options shouldn't completely replace tradition, unless they really duplicate every advantage of the old. If a topic hasn't been aired recently, then all we are doing is bumping. No harm in that, especially when responses are understandably short and not exactly addressing a legitimate concern? With respect, Stuart has mentioned new ways of controlling audio, but hasn't revealed exactly how they replicate and better every function and advantage of the old paradigm. He has said they continue to work on a variety of solutions, so I am reassured that that it is being addressed.


...P.S. - Today is me and my wife's anniversary and I need to bail out of here! I remembered it this morning with a "Happy Anniversary!" and a long walk on the beach by our house. I sneeked away to post here, but it's time for us to celebrate for most of the rest of today. I'll catch up with everyone later...

Congratulations by the way!! :biggrin:

[Jeff Kilgroe]

P.S. - Today is me and my wife's anniversary and I need to bail out of here! I remembered it this morning with a "Happy Anniversary!" and a long walk on the beach by our house. I sneeked away to post here, but it's time for us to celebrate for most of the rest of today. I'll catch up with everyone later...

Congrats on another year! Of course I don't know how many there have been... But you don't want to forget. I forgot our anniversary this year (8 years) and I had to break out my stealthy ninja skillz in order to cover my butt. I pulled it off, wife was happy. :shiftyph34r:

[Michael Ragen]

Hey TJ,
Unless the Supergrip design has changed since NAB I believe that it just has 4 buttons that correspond to the 4 audio channels and you use the joystick on the grip to control the level. I think those buttons can be assigned to other stuff as well.
It seems like someone could just design a cage mountable usb/wireless tiny controller with pots.

[Finner]

P.S. - Today is me and my wife's anniversary and I need to bail out of here! I remembered it this morning with a "Happy Anniversary!" and a long walk on the beach by our house. I sneeked away to post here, but it's time for us to celebrate for most of the rest of today. I'll catch up with everyone later...

Go get her TIGER! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

[Bruce Allen]

P.S. - Today is me and my wife's anniversary and I need to bail out of here! I remembered it this morning with a "Happy Anniversary!" and a long walk on the beach by our house. I sneeked away to post here, but it's time for us to celebrate for most of the rest of today. I'll catch up with everyone later...

Congrats Gibby! Have a great day...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Stokestack]

The difference is two pots which you know are each controlling a known channel - no thought required. One joystick means we may have to check what channel it is assigned to.

Maybe not: They could use upper-left and lower-left joystick corners to bring the left channel up and down, and likewise for the right. Straight up and down could do both. So the joystick could adjust two channels pretty intuitively, as long as there's sufficient tactile or graphical feedback.

Although it's hard to evaluate in the abstract, it doesn't seem likely to me that controls on the back of the camera will be as convenient as controls on the side, even if the side controls can't be adjusted on your shoulder. Tilting the camera away from your head or cradling it in your arm to expose the side is easier and more secure than lowering the whole thing in front of and away from you (with one hand, by the grip, while keeping the whole heavy rig from flipping around) to mess with the back. Especially when you have batteries and storage bricks back there.

The SuperGrip sounds great, however.

[ericyoung]

Maybe not: They could use upper-left and lower-left joystick corners to bring the left channel up and down, and likewise for the right. Straight up and down could do both. So the joystick could adjust two channels pretty intuitively, as long as there's sufficient tactile or graphical feedback...

Nice idea, but still not as good as individual pots IMHO.

Want to whip the level to about 2/3 of full level on a pot? You just whip it round to about that angle, and then finesse it. There's no learning curve. With a joystick, I'd take a lot of convincing that tactile feedback would be good enough that you couldn't easily overshoot and end up oscillating around the desired level. Especially if the joystick is very small and so has tiny physical travel - difficult for a gentle touch. Even if the joystick was rate adjustable like a zoom demand - yes, with practice you could get pretty good at doing the adjustment, but why should we have to learn a new skill, unless it's clearly superior to old fashioned pots?

Take a look at a modern jet cockpit - still plenty of knobs! Why? Because physical angular feedback is hard to beat for quick adjustment. I'm not talking about rotary encoders - which are only good in certain applications, and not a universally superior replacement for physical controls. Why do professionals hate servo focus rings on prosumer camcorders? No physical angular feedback and lag is why.

[Shawn Nelson]

Guys, you do realize that this thread would have possibly been worthwhile a year ago, but when Red is already done, and the production units ship in 5 weeks, this discussion is nearly pointless.

[ericyoung]

Guys, you do realize that this thread would have possibly been worthwhile a year ago, but when Red is already done, and the production units ship in 5 weeks, this discussion is nearly pointless.

Yeah, I realise! This discussion was certainly brought up months ago, but since then the image side has understandably taken most of Reduser bandwidth. Guess we're just venting and hoping that the audio side will kick ass too. :help:

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Exactly. I'm just terrified it's not going to work.
It may be late in the day now but once they start mass producing the thing it really will be too late. :cold:

To put this thread to bed we now need some more info about the Supergrip please.

[Shawn Nelson]

It'll work, go buy a Sound Devices MixPre, SD302 or SD442.

[Bruce Allen]

It'll work, go buy a Sound Devices MixPre, SD302 or SD442.

That'll definitely help a ton.

The added advantage is that you use the (presumably leagues better) Sound Devices preamps to amplify the signal to line level before you go into the camera's DAC. This is much better than having a low-end preamp trying to amplify a weak mic signal while surrounded by electronics of a running camera.

Of course, once you're spending somewhere between $670 and $1300 on a preamp (MixPre or 302), it does seem to make more sense just to get a $2500 702T, which not only has an excellent preamps but also an excellent DAC and is a self-contained high-def sound recording device with digital outputs, etc. In a pinch, you could go with the $1900 702, but it has no timecode and then due to lack of Red digital inputs, you'd be stuck with either using it as a mixer and recording through the inferior DAC of the Red, or recording without timecode if you wanted to get full recording quality by recording to the device.

Anyway, I guess the answer of how much to spend on the external preamps for the Red will depend on the quality of the rest of the signal chain - if you feed the Red a good line-level signal, how well will it hold up once the Red's DAC has converted it? Will you notice the difference between a MixPre and a Beachtek?

All of these analog solutions will hinge entirely on the quality of Red's DAC, which we will only be able to determine via testing.

If anyone is not convinced, read
Jay Rose's excellent article "DV Camera Audio: Real Numbers, Real Recommendations"

http://www.dv.com/features/features_item.php?articleId=23902929

You will be STUNNED at the differences in SN ratio, etc between a "respected" prosumer DV camcorder and DAT or even compressed MiniDisc.

Again, this is tied in to the whole issue of pots, because the lack of pots on the Red, makes an external mixer start to be a good idea... and once you decide to get an external mixer, your choice of how expensive an external mixer (or whether to get a mixer / recorder) will be determined by the quality of the Red's DAC and whether you'd be using it for primary audio recording or dual-system (my compromise suggestion of digital input obviously looking like it just won't happen).

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Yeah, I've had a Sound Devices 744 for ages. I'm perhaps less stupid in reality than I sound on this forum :clown2: (perhaps more.. :biggrin: )
The point is that having and using 4 inputs on RED without Sound Devices quality circuitry and control is arguably a waste of time when we're going to be using this camera for work that will demand the ultimate in high quality reproduction.

Look at how every frame of beta fotage is currently being pored over to prove that RED is either revolutionary or overhyped!

I'm not saying that RED has missed the sound boat! How would I know that? But I am askin'...:ninja:

Anyway, I'd better get back to reading Harry Potter :sorcerer:

[Steve Sherrick]

I feel I have enough info now to say that there is potential in these new methods of adjusting audio via camera. I have already put a lot of faith in these guys on the image side, and will put that same faith into the audio side.

Gibby, will there be enough bandwith (people, cameras, etc) to put the audio through some tests at your event? It will be good to get some real world feedback on how the audio is handled, actual real world sound quality, etc. I'd volunteer to help bringing my Sound Devices gear, mics, etc. but you probably already have your hands full with everything else.

As it is getting close to shipping time, let's take a wait and see approach and assume Red has this fully under control.

Steve

[Steve Gibby]

Gibby, will there be enough bandwith (people, cameras, etc) to put the audio through some tests at your event? It will be good to get some real world feedback on how the audio is handled, actual real world sound quality, etc. I'd volunteer to help bringing my Sound Devices gear, mics, etc. but you probably already have your hands full with everything else.

To my knowledge there has been no word yet on whether audio will be fully enabled on the first shipping cameras. If audio is sufficiently enabled on them, we'll definitely do some audio tests - but not extensive tests, due to time constraints.

Audio is a key element in every production, no matter what the genre. We all acknowledge the critical importance of good audio tools.

[Stokestack]

Nice idea, but still not as good as individual pots IMHO.

Hey, no disagreement here. But, as we all know, the physical design must be locked down at this point. So if they're going to use the joystick for audio, they might as well use it efficiently. The use of the corner positions of the joystick would also eliminate toggling the joystick between channels.

The talk of external devices does bring up the old digital-audio input again, though. If we're going to shell out for an external sound processor, it's too bad we can't make it a good flash-based recorder and run digital out of it into the Red. That'd provide sync sound from the get-go, along with a backup.

[Steve Sherrick]

The digital connection is an interesting one, hadn't even thought about that as a possibility. But, that means a dedicated clock for the camera, no? As in word clock, or some such clock that can keep things locked. If it could be implemented, then if it's stable that would certainly mean the process of sending the audio to the camera can be better controlled by the sound person. But, as was mentioned, not all mixers (actually very few have a digital out. Usually, it's the hard disk recorders that have them, which you do find now on many sets. Interesting idea.

Steve

[JohnF]

When I hear talk of external devices I can here my good friend, who has scored and played on an Oscar nominated movie plus many other big jobs, laughing at the cost of film related audio equipment.

Take microphone pre-amps for instance, check out the prices that musicians pay for decent pre-amps compared to that for the film world. It'll make your jaw drop! And don't get me wrong some of the musicians gear is actually better than what we have!

As for digital input I am surpised that we don't even have a simple SPDIF (or other digital audio in) connector onboard RED. (any latency can be corrected easily in post) Having this would have enabled the use of far cleaner signal path from mic to recording with minimal hassle.
That said having 4 audio in's is great and with a sound-op I'll probably be running them at line in levels using an external pre-amp to do this but when filming on my lonesome, as happens, I'll need the internal pre-amps with limiters 'cos I'll be running stereo mic and cam mounted shotgun setup. So I'll need decent controls plus limiters to handle this.


JohnF

[Steve Sherrick]

When you get into studio preamps it gets very subjective. Generally speaking, you get what you pay for, but price is not always the determining factor. How they match with certain microphones, what voices/instruments sound better on which combinations, etc.

In film/video field recording, it's all about getting nice, clean dialogue. It's almost tough to go wrong with a Schoeps hyper running through a SD 442, a Cooper, SQN, etc. for interior work. Not sure we can expect to see the quality preamps these devices have in a camera mic pre, but even if they were a notch below in quality, that will still be a good option for the run and gun market. What would be disappointing will be if the mic pres in the Red turn out to be very noisy. Somehow I don't see them settling for that, but I'm sure they have had to make some tough decisions along the way.

We will have to wait and see what they have come up with. Perhaps we'll all be pleasantly surprised.

Steve

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

The 24/48 spec is a good indication of Red´s intention when most other cameras have 16/48 max.

BTW, that external mike, that came with my "Professional Audio Signal Path" Sony HVR -A1E: I havent had a microphone like this since I bought my first Blaupunkt Kassetten Rekorder in the 70ies. I didn´t know they still make those. Recording dialog you can almost understand what somebody said. ;-)

Jochen

[Bruce Allen]

The 24/48 spec is a good indication of Red´s intention when most other cameras have 16/48 max.

True. If they implement 24/48 well with good pre-amps, DAC, etc, they will be okay.

For example. the Sony F900 is something like 20 bits, 48 khz, but is well regarded (except for the fact that the thing used to make quite a bit of noise on set if I'm not mistaken...)

http://www.sounddevices.com/tech/sony_tests.htm
http://www.sounddevices.com/tech/sony_f900-ap.htm

Here is it relative to some other cams (including a DVCAM and Beta SP unit)
http://www.sounddevices.com/tech/sony_chart.htm

Compare this to a full test of the PD150, which is nowhere near as good (it gets nowhere close to the theoretical limits of 16/48):
http://www.sounddevices.com/tech/pd150.htm

Sorry about all of the Sound Devices linkage. No affiliation with the company. I think they just did thorough tests because people were plugging external mixers into various cams and were asking questions about how much the cameras were limiting things...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[chuck colburn]

In this months (July) issue of Electronic Products I saw a little blub about a three in one control device. On a single shaft it has a joy stick, push button and a rotary control. So one could navigate functions with the joy stick and then push on it to choose an item and then turn the stick to adjust that function. Prety niffty.

http://www.electronicproducts.com/ShowPage1.asp?SECTION=&PRIMID=&FileName=csrc02%2Ejul2007%2Ehtml&Manufact=Grayhill&ReturnLink=%2FSearch1%2Easp%3FManufacturer%3D%26Ke yword%3Dgrayhill%26Slot%3D0%26StartNum%3D1%26stype %3D%26year%3D10&MonthYear=Jul+2007

[explosive]

Hi this was brought up quite few months ago, maybe even dvx user days but what ended up being decided for audio control pots. I have not seen any pot controls on the camera and if audio control is all menu based I could see it being an issue for EFP and doc shooters. I mainly do production work 95% of the time so it will not effect me as much.

Just interested on how the audio control system will work?

Forget add ons, a regular mixer will do.

I know i do not speak for everybody, but personally I would get a long cable which i would attach to a mixer w/ phantom power (right in between the shotgun and the camera input). It'd be prime to have it away from the camera so that whoever monitors/ does levels is not in the way of the focus puller, cameraman and grip.

It would be terribly awkward to be doing levels attached to the camera.
Anyhow, for doco's etc where sets are minimal you usually set the levels beforehand then adjust the boom mic direction to compensate for peaks.

my 2 cents...

[GlennChan]

If you wanted really high quality audio, a simple + high quality approach would be to record sound separately and sync it in post. You get essentially "unlimited" tracks (limited by how much equipment you have; and how the rest of the workflow works, whether it can handle so many tracks). And the best preamps and A->Ds in the world. But Redcine would have to implement something like sync to BWF timecode (and/or LTC recorded onto one of the channels) for that to happen.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3113

2- In practice, you can be limited in the quality of audio you can get.

If the location is very noisy, you have to resort to wireless lavs or do ADR. Both of which have quality shortcomings compared to what's ideal. Recording with ultra-low S/N, 24-bit 192khz doesn't really help that.

[explosive]

If you wanted really high quality audio, a simple + high quality approach would be to record sound separately and sync it in post. You get essentially "unlimited" tracks (limited by how much equipment you have; and how the rest of the workflow works, whether it can handle so many tracks). And the best preamps and A->Ds in the world. But Redcine would have to implement something like sync to BWF timecode (and/or LTC recorded onto one of the channels) for that to happen.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3113

2- In practice, you can be limited in the quality of audio you can get.

If the location is very noisy, you have to resort to wireless lavs or do ADR. Both of which have quality shortcomings compared to what's ideal. Recording with ultra-low S/N, 24-bit 192khz doesn't really help that.

ADR ... *shudder*... my least favourite thing, apart from radio mics...