PDA

View Full Version : RED service...



Eric Ulbrich
07-18-2009, 01:28 PM
I just wanted to share with everyone some of my problems with the service that RED has been offering as of late. Im just looking for help to resolve the issue quickly. Anyone who has any ideas please let me know. Im not trying to air out my dirty laundry, im just trying to solve the problem.

Keep in mind that my camera is less than a month old, its worked on only three jobs in total and is diligently serviced by myself when its either checked in or out.

We were on build 17 as well

Recently I shot a job up in Lake Tahoe, on the first day of shooting we noticed that the right 1/3 of the shots we were getting were oddly desaturated. When we viewed the .r3d files we noticed that the sensor was actually capturing this shift (not just in the viewfinder or monitor of the camera.) This issue presented itself while shooting 4k 2:1. We found it was not apparent in 3k or 2k, but only when we utilized the full sensor in either 4k 16:9 or 4k 2:1. We checked our whole set of lenses Arri standard speeds MKI as well as an angineiux 25-250 HP and found that the lenses all presented the same set of issues.

Here is a link to an .r3d file that illustrates the problem:
http://idisk.mac.com/ericulbrich-Public?view=web

I called RED:
Nate in the service department was more than helpful to me, we reset the camera to factory defaults re black shaded the camera. The issue disappeared. we felt we solved the issue.

Later in the day, (approx 6-8 hours later) the
issue re-presented itself again. We reset all factory defaults, re black shaded the camera (we went as far as installing build 20 and then rolling back to build 17 when the issue wasn't resolved) By then we felt that we had done all we can and got a new body out on the show (out of my pocket as the owner operator.) I lost about 500 dollars out of my rental for the show.

When I arrived back to LA I took the camera to RED.

When I got to the office I was told that I couldnt leave the lobby, I asked if I might be able to use the bathroom (2 cans of sweet tea and an hour drive dont agree well with the bladder.) I was told it was company policy that no one was allowed to use the restroom unless you were an employee and I was told to drive down the road to use the local coffee shop bathroom.

I waited for about 20-30 min before the techs came out and got my camera. They took it back and I waited again for another 20-30 min.

When Nate came out he was very nice, and Nate is a godsend at RED and assured me that he would work tirelessly to solve the issue

He brought out another tech who told me that he was worried because the issue was intermittent and wasn't presenting itself on the bench right now.

I asked if they had looked at the .R3d file and they assured me that all their techs had looked at it and in fact they had noticed the problem and were aware of it.

So I asked simply, what can you do to fix my camera?

They said that they were going to do everything they could to fix it, however, if they were not able to re-create the issue in the shop, then there was nothing that they could do for me and would send it back the same way it came in.

My response was simple. If the camera cannot be guaranteed to be fixed and the issue might present itself again weather it be tomorrow or 6 months later, the camera could be a lemon and I would like another body.

RED's response was simple "we cant do that"

I asked if they could then replace all the major components inside the camera if they couldnt give me a new body

RED's response was the same "we cant do that, we have to prove that the camera is defective"

I said: "well you guys have told me that you see a problem with how the camera shoots, you've seen the desautration problem appear in files that I have shot. You acknowledged that there is a problem with the camera. How does that not constitute a defective camera?"

RED's response was "we need to be able to replicate the problem at our shop under supervision."

So basically I said "if the camera could be bad, and you guys cannot fix it, Ive basically bought a camera which in the future could go down on me again, costing me more money out of my pocket, damaging my reputation as an owner operator and basically making it so when I rent my camera out, I have to tell people that I dont know if it will preform flawlessly."

RED had no answer...

I asked for a loner body while mine was in the shop.

RED's response "We cant do that, we have no loner bodies to give out"

There were 2 bodies in their store, on the showroom floor, why couldn't I have one of those???

RED "Those are not loner bodies to give out, they are showroom models only."

Upon this, I decided to let them get to work on the camera, they assured me that they would call me everyday with updates (something that so far Ive only gotten one phone call from Nate telling me that they still have not been able to find the problem.)

I left RED with not only a very full bladder but an uneasy feeling in the pit of my stomach. Were they actually going to be able to fix my camera or not?

Now I know Im a very small fish in a big pond, and I know that I'm no Soderberg or large production company shooting million dollar features, but does that mean that im any less important? I still paid the same amount as everyone else did for my camera, doesn't that still at the least entitle me to knowing that the company that sold me the camera has got my back?

It seems to me that when you spend this much money to buy a piece of gear your not just buying the gear, your buying into a company. Your showing them that you have faith in their product and want to be a part of their community. Don't get me wrong, I think RED is a fantastic innovation in the world of filmmaking, I just worry that the company I bought into wasn't what it said it was. If RED is a revolution in image capturing, shouldn't they also be a revolution in taking care of the people who work their camera?

For without us, the small owner operators who test tirelessly when beta builds come out. Who spend hours every day on REDUSER helping people with problems, discussing the camera and how to make beautiful images with it Without us, RED is just another camera company.

Without us the Revolution is just an idea, not a movement.

I feel that people who have shown faith and put forth effort to helping promote the idea of RED should be shown the same faith back from RED regarding customer service.

Thanks for reading.

Jarred Land
07-18-2009, 01:39 PM
Thanks for sharing Eric.. moved to the complaint department as it was posted in the wrong thread.

Anyways... we need to see the problem before we can do anything to solve the problem.. its just the way it is unfortunately.. kinda like when you take your car to the shop and say the headlights don't work but the mechanic flicks the switch and they turn on... the only thing you can do is a complete diagnostic (which i assume was done on your camera ) and check the wiring.

The bathroom thing is pretty dumb I know. We just don't have public restrooms, we used to bring people into the bowels of RED to use our internal restrooms but unfortunately we had quite a few customers "abuse" the internal restrooms so we had to lock it down :(

Sorry you feel let down.. customer service is really important to us. Our margins are incredibly low so we cant just swap cameras at will before we can see the problem.

Eric Ulbrich
07-18-2009, 02:08 PM
I understand Jarred. I know that this is the proper place to make complaints, however I feel my post is more than just a complaint, its a comment on what I feel is the RED philosophy. Besides, no one reads the complaint department anyways,

With that said, I dont care about the bathroom issue, I just think its kinda silly.

I agree regarding the car analogy, however I must respond:
Its not just a headlight issue, its not something simple that can be tracked down. This is a complex issue with the internal workings of the camera. And also, regardless of what the issue is, when you take your car in, dont you get a rental or a loner so you can at least get from place to place?

Perhaps your margins should be higher, perhaps you should have at least 20-30 bodies in the shop that are only for these kind of issues. Perhaps you should have your own rental house that stocks these products for just these reasons?

My other issue is that im booked through August, my company cannot have its body go down like this. I had a rental on a job this week that it needed to go out on. I need to know that RED had my back, and frankly RED didnt.

I was able to secure a loner body from a company, they were more than happy to extend it to me even before I brought the camera down to RED. Their comment was "If RED doesn't take care of you, we will, because your business is that important to us."

I find it odd, that a company who has no affiliation with RED is more than happy to help an RED owner operator just on the basis that they value my business. Isnt that REDs job?

The only reason I state this is because I feel its in your guys best interest to not have other companies taking care of your clients. Some might think it reflects poorly on your guys service.

Just a thought.

Evin Grant
07-18-2009, 02:09 PM
Was it particularly hot when the problem occurred? Maybe the Red techs need to leave it in the Sun in the parking lot for an hour for the issue to come up?

Eric Ulbrich
07-18-2009, 02:24 PM
Negative. All Day INT and Night INT in Tahoe, Temp never got above 85. Also, I shot the whole day previous to the issue happening DAY EXT timelapse stuff. The problem never showed.

Jarred Land
07-18-2009, 02:29 PM
With that said, I dont care about the bathroom issue, I just think its kinda silly.

agree...



And also, regardless of what the issue is, when you take your car in, dont you get a rental or a loner so you can at least get from place to place?

not always... maybe if you have a BMW or Luxury car. And they charge you for it.. if not directly indirectly. We dont build that kinda thing into our pricing, and most people prefer that. That said, we are working on an "special service" contract that offers these kinda perks.



Perhaps your margins should be higher, perhaps you should have at least 20-30 bodies in the shop that are only for these kind of issues. Perhaps you should have your own rental house that stocks these products for just these reasons?

We decided not to do this to make the camera as affordable as possible.. its a subjective policy i know. Even then, we do have a small number of Demo cameras for this purpose, but they are all out now.



My other issue is that im booked through August, my company cannot have its body go down like this. I had a rental on a job this week that it needed to go out on. I need to know that RED had my back, and frankly RED didnt.


We just need to see the problem so we can fix it... I know its frustrating, just like the guy that brings his car in and his headlights stop working as soon as he leaves the shop. This is a professional camera and there is so much margin for user error (not saying yours is the case ) that we need to just make sure there is a problem before just swapping out cameras.



I was able to secure a loner body from a company, they were more than happy to extend it to me even before I brought the camera down to RED. Their comment was "If RED doesn't take care of you, we will, because your business is that important to us."

I find it odd, that a company who has no affiliation with RED is more than happy to help an RED owner operator just on the basis that they value my business. Isnt that REDs job?


They are a rental company.. a service company. Again, you pay for that, if not directly, indirectly. This is why they exist, and this is the value of using them. It's always been like that.

We tried to help you.. but could not find a problem ( as far as I know, I have not talked to my team about this yet, i am basing this off your side of the story ) If we saw the problem, you would have had a very different outcome.



The only reason I state this is because I feel its in your guys best interest to not have other companies taking care of your clients. Some might think it reflects poorly on your guys service.

see above.



[Just a thought.

and I appreciate the thought... I will review the details on monday with Nate, and make sure the proper procedures were followed. There are always 2 sides to every story, but just basing things off your side, there is nothing more we could of done.. we will not just replace your camera with a new one if we don't know there is a problem. We might of been able to bend the rules and borrowed you a loaner, but there wasn't one available.

Eric Ulbrich
07-18-2009, 02:51 PM
not always... maybe if you have a BMW or Luxury car. And they charge you for it.. if not directly indirectly. We dont build that kinda thing into our pricing, and most people prefer that. That said, we are working on an "special service" contract that offers these kinda perks.

So RED is not a high end camera? If you were to compare it to a car it isn't a BMW or better? When I take my old Nissan Xterra to the shop, I'm given a rental car at no additional cost to me or my business. I mean it surly costs around the same once you factor in accessories ect. ect. I would have gladly paid another 3-5 thousand more just to know that RED had my back with the camera. At least tell people this when you sell a camera to them, so at least they know that when it breaks their might be a chance that RED cant do anything to fix it.




They are a rental company.. a service company. Again, you pay for that, if not directly, indirectly. This is why they exist, and this is the value of using them. It's always been like that.

Who says I paid anything for it? That's beside the issue. The issue here is that someone else had to cover for RED. And even if I did have to pay for it, why is that my responsibility as an owner? What would have happened if I wasnt able to get a loner? Would I have to just cancel the rental and potentially damage my reputation with the client? Remember were talking about a camera that is less than a month old here.



We tried to help you.. but could not find a problem ( as far as I know, I have not talked to my team about this yet, i am basing this off your side of the story ) If we saw the problem, you would have had a very different outcome.

OK, well the Tech Guys have confirmed that their is a problem, they saw the .R3D file and stated "This is a unique problem."



and I appreciate the thought... I will review the details on monday with Nate, and make sure the proper procedures were followed. There are always 2 sides to every story, but just basing things off your side, there is nothing more we could of done.. we will not just replace your camera with a new one if we don't know there is a problem. We might of been able to bend the rules and borrowed you a loaner, but there wasn't one available.

Ok, well I would very much appreciate a phone call on monday from either you or Nate explaining what you guys have been able to uncover.

Again I dont want to seem like Ive got a pitchfork and Torch here, I just want to solve the problem just like you guys want to as well.

Jarred Land
07-18-2009, 03:00 PM
OK, well the Tech Guys have confirmed that their is a problem, they saw the .R3D file and stated "This is a unique problem."


Ah hah!!! Right there is a new nice little piece of info.. if we knew there was a problem, and we still treated you poorly, the whole story changes...

Ill kick some ass on your behalf shortly for you... :)

Eric Ulbrich
07-18-2009, 03:07 PM
Word. And remember. There will be a bottle of whiskey for the person who solves it by this week.

Evin Grant
07-18-2009, 04:06 PM
If it's a good Scotch I bet Graham will fly out to fix it personally:gnorsi:

Brent@RED
07-18-2009, 04:32 PM
Ok, well I would very much appreciate a phone call on monday from either you or Nate explaining what you guys have been able to uncover.


I won't repeat what Jarred said since we are on the same page. I will say that people do read the Complaint area - search how many times I have posted in this area :smile5:

Anyways, since Nate was your direct contact, I will get a status from him and give you a call or email as soon as I know. Please send a number I can reach you at (and what time zone you are in so I don't call you at 2am) and your email. I am at brent - at - red - dot - com.

BC

Brent@RED
07-18-2009, 05:01 PM
Just talked to Nate, Eric. Since you left, he has had your camera personally at his desk trying to replicate to issue and has been unable to do so once. If you have any more info about your shooting environment/settings you can tell me or Nate, please shoot us an email. I understand it was very intermittent with you as well so Nate has put in a lot of time trying to catch it.

Rest assured, we'll make sure you have a camera you are confident in. Sometimes issues are a combination of a bunch of variables that have to all hit at the same time to produce them. It's why we ask so many questions during diagnosis... As soon as we dial in on the right combination (hopefully, you can think of something else to help us help you), we will resolve the issue for you. Please do send me that email so we can chat on Monday.

BC

Zakaree Sandberg
07-18-2009, 07:28 PM
UR r3d looks completely fine to me..

Eric Ulbrich
07-18-2009, 07:34 PM
Brent, I sent you an email, thanks a bunch.

Eric Ulbrich
07-18-2009, 07:43 PM
Ive posted some sample images along with the .r3d file on my site. Here is the link again.

http://idisk.mac.com/ericulbrich-Public?view=web

Paul Leeming
07-19-2009, 05:58 AM
Eric, I'm looking at your example stills and wondering, is it maybe your lens that is causing the issue?

Were all these shots done on one lens, or several?

It looks like one sided vignetting more than anything else. It would also be useful to evenly light a white wall, and use False Color on camera to check this. Does False Color show uneven vignetting?

All your example shots seem to be lit from one side so it's difficult to judge if the exposure change is due to stepping into natural shadows etc.

Curious to see what the issue turns out to be.

HTH

Paul

Eric Ulbrich
07-19-2009, 12:55 PM
Done with several lenses. Even pulled the matte box on some shots to try and minimize the issue. The walls on the chip chart and the cam align were lit with a tweenie directly over camera with no more than at tenth of a stop variation from left to right. False color showed a dip in exposure on the right side but we chalked that up to the problem with the desaturation not with the lighting. Remember we tested this across 6 prime lenses as well as an anginieux 25-250 so we felt confident that the issue wasn't lens related.

Florian Stadler
07-19-2009, 01:19 PM
Portholing is common in even Zeiss Standards MKII. Yours are the tiny ones with the adapter? These lenses are not built for a modern digital camera. These aberrations can be used creatively to make beautiful images. Isn't that the point of using ancient lenses? (I own a set of Cooke S2's from the 50's and love them when appropriate)
Show me a frame that exhibits it from the 25-250 @ 100mm.... Shoot an evenly lit single color wall, 1 stop closed from minimum.

Rob Gardner
07-19-2009, 02:44 PM
I hope this has a happy ending. I can say that I have more than once shipped heavy expensive sony broadcast decks in for problems that were not replicated in their shop, and it was just tough shit for me. I'm not sure if that was the exact phrase they used, but those decks cost more than a Red, and the shipping was severe and I was out of use on the decks for a couple of weeks. Problem never fixed.

I think Red is kind of an odd company, but my experience has certainly been that for the great majority of the time, when it comes to customer service, their hearts are in the right place.

Re: Bathroom issue. I suggest Red invests in Customer Pee bottles to keep behind the desk, if a customer bathroom is so expensive...

I mean, really, if you have poped for the cost a Red package, you should be able to stop in and drain the pickle.

Zakaree Sandberg
07-19-2009, 06:33 PM
I mean, really, if you have poped for the cost a Red package, you should be able to stop in and drain the pickle.

heres the issue with the bathroom...

RED gets alot of visitors.. a lot are not from southern california..
so they come on down.. and what do they get for lunch? mexican food..
unless your like me and most orange countians and LAians, visitors are not accustom to the food we love..
by the time they get to red (20-30 min after lunch)
their foreign lunch tends to disagree.
now.. no one likes working in an environment in which the bathroom has fought a valiant fight against a man and his lunch..THUS.. red has decided to close down the toilet from hostel visitors.. it makes sense.

D Fuller
07-19-2009, 08:04 PM
heres the issue with the bathroom...

RED gets alot of visitors.. a lot are not from southern california..
so they come on down.. and what do they get for lunch? mexican food..
unless your like me and most orange countians and LAians, visitors are not accustom to the food we love..
by the time they get to red (20-30 min after lunch)
their foreign lunch tends to disagree.
now.. no one likes working in an environment in which the bathroom has fought a valiant fight against a man and his lunch..THUS.. red has decided to close down the toilet from hostel visitors.. it makes sense.

I spend 25K with you, then I come to visit and you don't let me use the toilet? I'm sorry, but that just seems rude.

Eric Ulbrich
07-20-2009, 01:42 AM
Ok now everyone. The toilet issue is simply not the issue.
I would like to share a response to an email from Jared:

I just want people to know that RED has taken care of my situation and I feel confident that the issue will be resolved.

"Things are looking good. I was told that they were going to work on it diligently and if they were not able to fix it or resolve the issue by Tuesday, RED would provide a loner body.

I must say, I am both surprised and satisfied. It truly shows me that RED is a community that does care, I feel like your company has my back.

Just what I asked for. Its a good feeling.

I will speak to Nate and Brent on monday to check in and see how we are doing.

Thanks again"

I feel satisfied with the situation. I belive the matter is now closed. :coolgleamA:

Nikolai Pigarev
07-20-2009, 02:33 AM
Glad to hear. Still keen on what the problem was. For me RED always goes an extra step in service and all strange requests LOVE THIS COMPANY!

Jarred Land
07-20-2009, 09:28 AM
Glad to hear. Still keen on what the problem was. For me RED always goes an extra step in service and all strange requests LOVE THIS COMPANY!

I think it was just that we ran out of Demo cameras.. Eric told Matt that it was no big deal because he had Keslow lined up when he was here, but i guess something changed so having a Demo become more important. Everyone at RED did their Job the best they could given the circumstances, and I 100% understand Eric's frustration.

The Bathroom thing probably was just insult to injury.