Focus Assist

[G.A. Kokes]

Hi,

I came across this interesting focus assist by JVC the other day:

http://camcorder.jvc.com/microsites/GZHD3/features.html

It's less then half way down the page. It seems like a very intuitive method. Is their any details of how the Red's Magic Focus Assists will be implemented yet, or is the team still sorting that out?

Thanks,
G.A.

[Graeme Nattress]

If it's anything like the similar one on the earlier HDV cameras it's totally useless as it's binary - on or off on edges, and the edges obscure the very focus you're trying to see.

[ChristopherKenworthy]

If it's anything like the similar one on the earlier HDV cameras it's totally useless as it's binary - on or off on edges, and the edges obscure the very focus you're trying to see.

Tell it like it is Graeme. I hope you've got a good lawyer.

[PaulClements]

It looks like a child has drawn on a photo.

With production seemingly just around the corner is there any chance of some more info about the focus assist at all Graeme or is it being saved for IBC?

[Priyesh P.]

It looks like a child has drawn on a photo.

With production seemingly just around the corner is there any chance of some more info about the focus assist at all Graeme or is it being saved for IBC?

Yeah. With only a couple of weeks left why aren't they disclosing the system. Is it not patentable? Does Red fear that competition will copy it?

[S. Um]

Most cameras have edge enhancement features, and JVC is just colorizing the edges to make them easier to see. I think it's a great idea. I haven't played with one in person, though, but I would like to see how well it works in the field. I think Panasonic has a similar feature called Focus-in-Red.

From Graeme's comments earlier, I'm led to believe that Red's Magic Focus will be far superior. You've gotten our hopes up Graeme, now show us the money!

[Michael Morlan]

That simple focus assist works great for me when shooting with the GY-HD100 (and cousins.) Clean, simple, colored edge emphasis.

M

[Graeme Nattress]

If you hunt through the forum, or saw us at NAB you'll know all the details about magic focus assist!

I personally found the JVC system misleadingly telling me something was in focus when it was not, and the coloured edge (which in the HDV camera I used was not as thick as the edge in the link above) obscured the edge you were trying to see!

Graeme

[Vincent S]

I didn't get to go to NAB and I don't remember any photos taken of the FA from the event, but yes some people who did see it did kinda described it already, kinda!!

Can we please get a example? :)

[albert rudnicki]

"That simple focus assist works great for me when shooting with the GY-HD100 (and cousins.) Clean, simple, colored edge emphasis."

Agree with Michael
It’s extremely efficient on hd100.

Albert
----------------------
www.yayofilms.com

[Nils Ruinet]

I tried it on the JVC HD100. It's like an enhanced peaking.
It's better than just using the (bad) viewfinder to focus, but it's not very precise.
I think / hope Red focus assist will be much better.

Will the red magic focus assit always be visible in the viewfinder, or will you have to press a button to activate it for a few seconds, like on the JVC / HVX ?

[Poi Boy]

I wasn't at NAB and I pretty good about reading reduser...I don't recall seeing any detail explanation of the magic focus assist. How about a recap G ?
Aloha
-A

[wshultz]

I'm not sure if JVCs version is any different from Sony's Red colored peaking or the new Panasonic Red peaking I just saw on their new monitor. I think it's very cool but I'd sure like to see what Red has cooked up. I don't think there's ever been anything definitively described on this forum or any kind of visual example that I can recall. I'd LOVE to see it though.

[I Bloom]

What I've gathered is that, so far it was a waveform display. A high mark on the graph indicating a sharp edge or high frequency signal. No confirmation as of yet just scattered reports.

I'm hoping for some kind of indicator within the image. While I agree with Graeme's criticism of the focus overlays blocking your actual view, comparing between an image and a waveform also worries me especially in horizontal shallow field compositions. Just a little twinkle that hangs on eyelashes and so forth is something that I've imagined could work well.

I'm sure what they come out with will be subtle, giving you confidence that what you've shot is very sharp, while at the same time allowing you to concentrate on composition. I know they've got a few more tricks up their sleeve. I'm excited to see it when it comes out.

IBloom

[Häakon]

With production seemingly just around the corner is there any chance of some more info about the focus assist at all Graeme or is it being saved for IBC?

IBC is mid-September and the first cameras are [tentatively] scheduled to ship by the end of August. I certainly hope we hear more about it before then! :tongue:

[Shawn Nelson]

Uh, I was at NAB, and had the "magic" focus assist explained twice and then kinda got it. Mostly because it wasn't working and only a static image displayed. So truth be told, no one outside of Red has ever seen it.

To be blunt, what I saw wasn't that magic, it seemed hard to read and much less practical then a simple zoomed in image (like the Sony Z1u focus assist). For Jim to repeatedly refer to Red focus assist as "magic" I had high hopes. I hope that this is simply my misunderstanding talking and that the real thing isn't what I thought I saw at NAB.

[Evin Grant]

Well I only got to see the still as well, but I immediately got the genius of the system. It may seem hard to read at first but so is a wave form monitor or a histogram. Once you understand the values displayed it's imensely powerful. I only hope (Enlighten me if any of you have found this in another thread) that you can turn it on in one display, like the LCD or Monitor out but leave it off in the EVF lets say.

If so then a side mounted Red LCD will be the ACs best friend and even if you can't actually hit focus at f1.2 you can at least know you're out :)

[Steve Gibby]

Some RED Team Magic Focus Assist Comments
(From the "Gibby Archives" - sequentially listed by date posted)

“Pulling focus will be the big surprise to those moving up from 1/3" or 2/3" sensors. It is a whole new ballgame. Standard LCD's won't cut it. It will take a new "trick" not seen before to help the shooter focus accurately without an optical finder (which many will tell you is still a challenge in lower light conditions). I think we have one.”

Jim Jannard
DV Info Net
5/1/06
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=66038&page=2

(Gibby note: this post was way back in May 2006. I believe Jim’s reference in the last line was to the Focus Assist)



“The RED-EVF has one or two additional capabilities I can discuss later, but essentially either one of them would be fine for camera operation. Both show Surround View, Histograms, Focus Assist, Frame Guides and Camera menus / status. As an example, if you were shooting underwater or on steadicam the RED-LCD would be the best choice.”

Stuart English
3/13/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=900&page=4



“Yes, it's on a line by line basis, not an average of that column, so it's pretty useful in most situations. And because you can see when the graph bit you're interested in peaks (a new meaning to the word peaking!) you know it's not just in focus, but in maximal focus. Traditional techniques just say that you're sorta-sharp, not maximally sharp....”

Graeme Nattress
4/19/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1540&page=5



“Remember the focus graph sees the entire image and displays a graph that gets built up from all those lines across, meaning you'll see when the other objects come into or out of focus whether they're arranged vertically or horizontally or not.”

Graeme Nattress
4/20/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1540&page=7



“It's in the list of things to get turned on in camera. When that will be is something that is effected by a large number of factors, so no predictions. The test footage I used to prototype it seemed to show that everything would work good, but the proof is in the pudding. I'm pretty confident though that this will be yet another very useful aid to camera operators, and you can never have enough useful aids.”

Graeme Nattress
4/20/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1540&page=7



“Focus “waveform” that appears under the main image”

Stuart
4/26/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2014&page=2




“So to return to the question first posed on this thread. Is the LCD sufficient to set critical focus ?

To back up the LCD's native WISIWG capability up we have two other modes of focus assistance which are available to both the RED-EVF and RED-LCD feeds - which are 1280 x 848 pixel and 1024 x 600 pixel displays respectively.

a) Native pixel analysis : - i.e. zoom into a selected portion of the 4K image at a 1:1 ratio.

b) Focus Assist : - i.e. the graphical representation of the focus within a selected area of the 4K image (as previewed at NAB with a stills mockup)”

Stuart English
5/10/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=42092&posted=1#post42092



“RED ONEs focus assist feature will certainly let the solo operator "achieve focus". The difference between that and dynamically pulling focus on actors etc is where electronics currently steps aside and human skills take over.”

Stuart English
5/11/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1886&page=8


----------------------


Gibby end note: I think the Magic Focus is going to kick some serious ass! I think we'll know shortly...

[Chris Gearhart]

a) Native pixel analysis : - i.e. zoom into a selected portion of the 4K image at a 1:1 ratio.

b) Focus Assist : - i.e. the graphical representation of the focus within a selected area of the 4K image (as previewed at NAB with a stills mockup)”

[/QUOTE]


Cool, Gibby. I missed this one. It's hard to say what one will use more, but I like the idea of having the extra safety of image magnification along with the RED magic focus.

[Steve Gibby]

I only hope (Enlighten me if any of you have found this in another thread) that you can turn it on in one display, like the LCD or Monitor out but leave it off in the EVF lets say.

If so then a side mounted Red LCD will be the ACs best friend and even if you can't actually hit focus at f1.2 you can at least know you're out :)

I know of at least one instance where this was suggested to RED Team, and Stuart English responded that the suggestion was noted:

“Yes, it is possible to have the EVF and LCD connected at the same time Petros. As to your second point - can the LCD have focus assist enabled, but the EVF not display that - I can't comment, but the request is noted. Thanks for your feedback.”

Stuart English
10/6/06
DV Info
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=76929&highlight=RED+focus+assist

(Note: Stuart’s reply was in response to this question that preceded it: “I know its probably too late since you are near lock-down but while being in a shooting today I had an idea: If its possible to have both the lcd and viewfinder connected to the camera in the same time, then the focus puller could setup the lcd with the focus assist enabled(being a 500% zoom in, or whatever else you have planned) while the camera operator uses the EVF in normal mode. How about it?” – Petros Nousias)

[S. Um]

Thanks for compiling that list, Gibby. That's about what I remembered reading, and I still don't understand it. But I know the Red folks have a lot on their plates, so I'll be patient. I'm sure you'll do a thourough review if it's available when your camera ships.

Having magic focus or not is really not a deal breaker for me. But I know there will be many times in EFP situations where I'll be the only camera operator, so I welcome anything that can make my life easier.

[Casey Green]

Gibby,

Thanks for taking the time to copy, paste, and organize all of these valuable posts from the RED team.

[chuck colburn]

From what I understand the inherent resolution of the EVF should allow critical focus, as in WYSIWYG. One thing that comes to mind though is does the EVF have a variable diopter to correct for different eyes?

[Poi Boy]

Thanks for the list Gibby, I look forward to getting my hands on.
Aloha
-A

[Alex Boothby]

"....we have two other modes of focus assistance...

a) Native pixel analysis : - i.e. zoom into a selected portion of the 4K image at a 1:1 ratio.

b) Focus Assist : - i.e. the graphical representation of the focus within a selected area of the 4K image (as previewed at NAB with a stills mockup)”[/I]

Stuart English

Does anyone know if both focus assist modes will work during playback? It would be helpful to review shots for circle takes.

[I Bloom]

From what I understand the inherent resolution of the EVF should allow critical focus, as in WYSIWYG. One thing that comes to mind though is does the EVF have a variable diopter to correct for different eyes?

I feel confident that it will have that feature. I think it goes without saying.

IBloom

[chuck colburn]

I feel confident that it will have that feature. I think it goes without saying.

IBloom

It might go without saying, but I found nothing either in the RED store under EVF or searching under EVF diopter to confirm this. Nor do the photos of the EVF show a focusing ring to indicate thus.

[Ace]

It might go without saying, but I found nothing either in the RED store under EVF or searching under EVF diopter to confirm this. Nor do the photos of the EVF show a focusing ring to indicate thus.

If Accuscene's EVF's were any good, I would bet that the RED EVF's are equally as good.

[chuck colburn]

Just asking.

[Nick Shaw]

The Accuscene certainly has a dioptre (p12 in http://www.accuscene.com/umvf1280sMkII.pdf) and although the RED EVF is not exactly the same device, I suspect a lot of info in that manual will still hold true.

[PaulClements]

Ok, so you have to forgive the cruedity of my suggestion, but I was thinking a focus assist could involve something like the attached. Personally I don't think such overlays get in the way of the framing, especially when your concern is on focussing at this point.

The Focus level dictates how severe the transparent focus overlay is, at 30% it gives a general fuzziness to the overlay around the focussed areas with the most in focus areas being warmer. With the focus level at 100% it picks out only the 0.08% (Made up figure) that the camera estimates is 100% in focus.

On fast moving subject matter (Such as the lizard in the picture) an actual visual representation would be quite intuitive in my mind. Being able to check the overlay in playback to be sure you'd got the shot would be good too.

[Ace]

Ok, so you have to forgive the cruedity of my suggestion, but I was thinking a focus assist could involve something like the attached. Personally I don't think such overlays get in the way of the framing, especially when your concern is on focussing at this point.

The Focus level dictates how severe the transparent focus overlay is, at 30% it gives a general fuzziness to the overlay around the focussed areas with the most in focus areas being warmer. With the focus level at 100% it picks out only the 0.08% (Made up figure) that the camera estimates is 100% in focus.

On fast moving subject matter (Such as the lizard in the picture) an actual visual representation would be quite intuitive in my mind. Being able to check the overlay in playback to be sure you'd got the shot would be good too.

Thats hot. Would love that. Although, with the waveform type display, it would essentially do the same thing.. I mean, a person operating a camera KNOWS where on screen the subject their trying to focus on is, so the waveform would be more of a honing device than a general instrument. Although it may work differently in my minds eye than in real life..

[Ace]

The Accuscene certainly has a dioptre (p12 in http://www.accuscene.com/umvf1280sMkII.pdf) and although the RED EVF is not exactly the same device, I suspect a lot of info in that manual will still hold true.

Looking at that manual, the Accuscene's are pretty insane pieces of machinery. They're like a small computers all on their own.

[PaulClements]

Thats hot. Would love that. Although, with the waveform type display, it would essentially do the same thing.. I mean, a person operating a camera KNOWS where on screen the subject their trying to focus on is, so the waveform would be more of a honing device than a general instrument. Although it may work differently in my minds eye than in real life..

(I presume you are talking about the current focus assist when you refer to the waveform type display)
True, I'm just trying to get my head around the current focus assist and using it in situations other than those that are controllable. For instance, setting up a person infront of a camera delivering dialogue, having markers for them to move to etc is a method that is well suited to the waveform in my mind. But it doesn't necessarily seem as intuitive when filming organic or fast random movements or using the camera handheld.

Say if I was doing a shot where I was running with the camera, quickly looking one way then the other, the scenery constantly changing shape, with objects moving in and out of the shot, the focus puller could perhaps remotely monitor the feed from the camera and if they can keep the specific varying area or object they want in focus within the 90-100% of the focus level you'd have quite accurate focus on a fast moving rapidly altering landscape, could make for some awesome shots that I'm unsure as to whether a waveform type display would be as intuitive, as you are using it as a reference rather than a representation. It'd take a great focus puller to do it still, yet would be an interesting tool for their arsenal.

Perhaps I'm being harsh on the current FA since I've seen very little and only read a few tidbits. Maybe up close and personal it's just as intuitive. Like I say I'm just struggling to get my head around how it would look and feel to use.

[S. Um]

Great idea, Paul.

[Graeme Nattress]

Paul, would be fabulous if your diagram could be done via an algorithm, but I doubt it's easily possible, especially in the type of software that can run in real time in camera.

The idea behind the waveform is that you can see the height of the graph and know whether something is in or just partially in focus. This does help as then you can judge degree of focus.

Graeme

[AftonGrant]

Say if I was doing a shot where I was running with the camera, quickly looking one way then the other, the scenery constantly changing shape, with objects moving in and out of the shot, the focus puller could perhaps remotely monitor the feed from the camera and if they can keep the specific varying area or object they want in focus within the 90-100% of the focus level you'd have quite accurate focus on a fast moving rapidly altering landscape, could make for some awesome shots that I'm unsure as to whether a waveform type display would be as intuitive, as you are using it as a reference rather than a representation. It'd take a great focus puller to do it still, yet would be an interesting tool for their arsenal.

This is why I don't think anything can truly replace a good, human focus puller. The operative word in all this technology is "assist". The accuracy of focus becomes more critical as the resolution increases. Imagine its importance at 4k.

Any electronic focus assist that exists today is only reactive. It can only deal with what is currently in the frame (or what is in front of the lens). It does not know how the camera will move and how objects will come in and out of frame throughout the shot. If it is waiting for something to come into frame before doing its job, it is already too late.

[PaulClements]

Paul, would be fabulous if your diagram could be done via an algorithm, but I doubt it's easily possible, especially in the type of software that can run in real time in camera.

Creating a 4k Digital cinema camera isn't easily possible :)

[PaulClements]

This is why I don't think anything can truly replace a good, human focus puller. The operative word in all this technology is "assist". The accuracy of focus becomes more critical as the resolution increases. Imagine its importance at 4k.

Any electronic focus assist that exists today is only reactive. It can only deal with what is currently in the frame (or what is in front of the lens). It does not know how the camera will move and how objects will come in and out of frame throughout the shot. If it is waiting for something to come into frame before doing its job, it is already too late.

Shoot 2k and use the remaining screen real estate to focus as it comes into view.

[PaulClements]

This is why I don't think anything can truly replace a good, human focus puller. The operative word in all this technology is "assist". The accuracy of focus becomes more critical as the resolution increases. Imagine its importance at 4k.

Any electronic focus assist that exists today is only reactive. It can only deal with what is currently in the frame (or what is in front of the lens). It does not know how the camera will move and how objects will come in and out of frame throughout the shot. If it is waiting for something to come into frame before doing its job, it is already too late.

Though even if used in a relatively still shot just to focus on an object it would still be a valuable tool. You would simply set it to 100% and adjust the follow focus till you had the exact point you want in focus highlighted. Setting up the focus exactly where you want it for a shot would take but a moment - And not just by someone who is a veteran focus puller.

[Jim Arthurs]

It might go without saying, but I found nothing either in the RED store under EVF or searching under EVF diopter to confirm this. Nor do the photos of the EVF show a focusing ring to indicate thus.

At NAB I remember twisting the diopter to my eyesight. I remember it being rather tight and sticky, and I had to go to the limit for my vision in one direction.

Unless I was dreaming.

Heck, it's possible I dreamed up everything, like going to NAB and seeing an affordable 4K camera.

As I mentioned months ago and others have brought up right here, I again put my vote towards the histogram thingy visable on playback as well. Really the bane of the current crop of HD cameras, not being about to recheck your focus on the built in EVF/LCD as well as you can check when live and recording...

[I Bloom]

The Focus level dictates how severe the transparent focus overlay is, at 30% it gives a general fuzziness to the overlay around the focussed areas with the most in focus areas being warmer. With the focus level at 100% it picks out only the 0.08% (Made up figure) that the camera estimates is 100% in focus.


Paul, what you want is exactly what I want but I see some difficulties. For example it seems like just using edge detection would give you a good idea of whats in focus for example I can redux you image below in photoshop and use the following steps.

1. Use Edge detection on the image.
2. Select a theshhold of the darkest pixels from the edge detection using color range.
3. Invert the selection and clear everything else.
4. Invert the selection and fill in red.
5. Overlay it on the original.

I get something like below:
http://ianbloom.com/focusassist2redux.jpg

And that seems like it's showing whats in focus. SEEMS LIKE. But it doesn't take into account contrast. A high contrast out of focus edge will also trigger the edge threshhold, like for example look at the edge of the pen below.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/582_1185126163.jpg

It's insidious because it seems to be working over there on her shoulder (my focus was off as you can see:pinch:) but on the pen the technique is clearly wrong.

This is, I think what Graeme is talking about when he says:


I personally found the JVC system misleadingly telling me something was in focus when it was not, and the coloured edge (which in the HDV camera I used was not as thick as the edge in the link above) obscured the edge you were trying to see!

I've been considering how you can solve this problem, not that I'm the guy too ask and I think what it would involve might be a Fourier Transform of the image to find high freqencies in the image followed by an inverse fourier transform to overlay those areas. That would be nearly if not more expensive computationally than REDCODE. This is all my guess.

This is also what I think Graeme means when he says:

Paul, would be fabulous if your diagram could be done via an algorithm, but I doubt it's easily possible, especially in the type of software that can run in real time in camera.

The idea behind the waveform is that you can see the height of the graph and know whether something is in or just partially in focus. This does help as then you can judge degree of focus.


So the question then becomes for me what is the waveform then, because what we normally think of as waveforms seems like it could readily translate back into an overlay. Well maybe it's a lot easier to compute a one dimensional transform than a two dimensional one, and also easier to not reverse-transform it back.

So my guess is that what you will see is a stripped down transform of each vertical line maybe on just the green channel. This appears as a waveform but each mark on the graph doesn't correspond to a pixel, it corresponds to a frequency. It basically tells you if that frequency is present in the image on that vertical line. Again I'm really guessing I don't feel like I can talk about this with confidence.

So Graeme my question: is there a way we can roughly localize that information on the image. Say within a block of pixels. So that one intuitively can see that the right area of the image includes some high frequency data but not exactly where? My fear is of having to look away from the image to get the info I need and of a possibly difficult comparison between the image and the waveform.

As below:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/582_1185125689.jpg

Thanks,
IBloom

[Brook Willard]

At NAB I remember twisting the diopter to my eyesight. I remember it being rather tight and sticky, and I had to go to the limit for my vision in one direction.

Unless I was dreaming.

Heck, it's possible I dreamed up everything, like going to NAB and seeing an affordable 4K camera.

As I mentioned months ago and others have brought up right here, I again put my vote towards the histogram thingy visable on playback as well. Really the bane of the current crop of HD cameras, not being about to recheck your focus on the built in EVF/LCD as well as you can check when live and recording...

The EVF definitely had an adjustable diopter - I used it myself.

[Finner]

I also played with the EVF diaopter and talked to stuart about how a numbered bezel around the diaopter would be good so the 1st AC could remember the director is 9.5, himself and the camera op are 9, and the DOP is 10 for example. That way each person does not have to find the sharp setting every time it is changed and just spin it to there correct # setting. I sure hope this was done.

[Brook Willard]

That makes two of us... I'd hate to have to put camera tape around the EVF.