IRIDAS vs. COLOR

[OlaHaldor]

Hi, I've been working with Apple Color since the day it hit the shelves, and I'm pretty much confident with the tools and over time I've refined my workflow and most of the time I can produce something the clients will like in a very short amount of time.

However, one thing that's bugging me is how slow it can be sometimes. Playback from timeline is choppy and stuttering, about 12-20fps. There's nearly no difference if it's Prores SD PAL or RED RAW 4K.

My setup is a early 2008 Mac Pro (2 x 4 core cpu @ 2.66 GHz) 6GB RAM and I've got a RAID1 on eSATA, Decklink HD Extreme -> HD-SDI -> Panasonic LH1700w . As a freelancer, I can't really afford the most high-tech rocket science kind of technology, but I'm very happy with my setup.

So I'm thinking - is the application the bottleneck here?


I've been looking over at IRIDAS, since they're (as far as I know) the only Mac option out there. But which one would I chose?

SpeedGrade OnSet? Fairly cheap, works with RAW, but will it do the job like Color does, and how is the performance compared to Color? Primary in/out, secondaries, shaders alà Color FX room, custom masks?


Then there's SpeedGrade XR, very interesting piece of software, and I've checked the pricing - boy do I gotta get a load of jobs to get that baby even remotely close to home.



Where would you look? Better hardware? New software? Anything would help.

[Nook Kim]

I'm very interested on the topic as well since I'm looking at the Speed Grade DI and Onset combo. I think this combo could offer an extremely attractive digital cinema workflow. I haven't looked at the application too much, but I'm going to take a very close look. For a starter, it seems like the Speed Grade is more versatile as it supports most of the RAW formats natively.

I grade in Color, too, and I'm going to give it a bit longer use with the new version 1.5 upgrade. It's not like I don't like the app, and it's very logical when it comes down to "grading". But it's not too logical with other important features such as conforming, re-conforming, rendering, etc.

I hope to hear what people have experienced with the Speed Grade offerings.

[Hans von Sonntag]

Hi Ola,

I used Color in the days when it belonged to Silicon Imaging and was called FinalTouch. I dropped 5K for FinalTouch-HD and used it two tedious years on a couple of jobs. FinalTouch aka Color never satisfied my needs and here is why:

1. No RT-playback. RT playback is vital for colour timing because you need to keep the pace. Interupting the session because of rendering or stuttering playback is annoying. Any experienced colourist would agree here.

2. Akward interface. This is uo to ones taste of course but the "room" concept never convinced me - too slow. For a more convenient, fluent work you need a Tangent panel but then no RT-playback....

3. XML roundtripping with FCP caused many crashes. I often had to re-grade a project completely. Maybe Color 1.5 is more mature in this regard.

When I had my hands on Color the firts time and found out that it was just the old FinalTouch with all it flaws and hardly anthing improved. I had to look out for an alternative. Scratch was too expensive by then and needed new hardware because my lab was mac based. I evaluated SpeedGrade HD and found it much, much better than Color. Even with my old G5 and a non-specified Nvidia consumer board I had SD RT and HD ProRes with 20 fps right from the start. Some time later I bought a Nvida quattro 5600fx and HD 1080p was RT. Great.

SpeedGrade is all about color. Here it has its particular strengths. Your never have to render while you grade. Even with 10 or more colour layers 1080p is RT. The primary is very powerfull, so are the secondaries. The interface is easy to understand and even without a dedicated control panel all the sliders you need are on your fingertips. SpeedGrade eats all flavours of RAW, RED, SI2K, Phantom HD, Arri21, Weisscam, etc. in RT.

SpeedGrade's weakest point has been the big strenght of Scratch: Conforming. Since a year SpeedGrade is performing in this area much better. Conforming from a proxy timeline to R3Ds works very well now.

For R3D RT playback your need a modern 7i machine such as a new MacPro plus a professional Nvida graphics board. The new quattro 4800 will do it nicley. Why Apple left out an Nvidia SDI-Out option is beyond my understanding. This is the main reason why all other vendors of grading apps don't support OSX. A "pro" colourist needs a calibrated HD-SDI based monitor system. Additionally many clients want the R3Ds with a first light grade dumped on SR for a convenient, tape based workflow. For such applications you need to run SpeedGrade on windows with the costly Nvidia SDI board.

SpeedGrade XR is 15k if I recall correctly. SpeedGrade DI (renders to DPX, CIN or EXR which XR cannot) is 5K more expensive, I think. Iridas has a long pedigree with it's framecycler application family which is extensivly used world wide in high-end digital cinema postproduction environments for playback and approval tasks. The performance of applications like SpeedGrade or Assimilate Scratch has its price. It is like with RedOne: once you have the jobs it will pay for it self.

BTW: SpeedGrade On Set is great tool for evaluating shots on set or to determine a specific look prior the shoot. It has all the tools which the bigger brothers have. In this regard it transforms a laptop to a telecine suite which RedCine is not. But it renders only stills and exports .look files that can be used later in the final grading session.

I hope that helps,

Hans

[OlaHaldor]

So in other words, SpeedGrade XR is the only option if I were to chose IRIDAS. I'm pretty fresh to color grading, all though I've had almost two dozens of jobs ever since Color 1.0 was installed, though most of them are very low budget productions for film school students or ads for use on the big screen. And I can sign your statement about the lack of RT playback.

A new Mac Pro with i7 CPU is not gonna happen anytime soon, thus SpeedGrade XR neither - my wallet says "NO!". But I'll keep IRIDAS in mind for sure.

Thanks for your time, Hans. Very interesting material to read.

[Noah Kadner]

IRIDAS is pretty awesome in action- but yeah not inexpensive.

Noah

[Peace Villow]

You can go to their website and request a 30 days demo license.

[Dane Brehm]

I did a fair amount of the R3D beta testing on Iridas XR and think very highly of it and when I'm consulting Post houses who are want to make the most out of their file-based systems I recommend XR. It is a GPU-oriented system so you'll have to find what is best on your budget.

Like anything else "you get what you pay for". You could in thoery Grade 2D or 3D then Conform on Scratch.

Goodluck,

[Lucas Wilson]

Hi all,

One thing to keep in mind with OS-X... there are no NVidia SDI drivers. If you're going to go with Speedgrade, I would recommend the Windows version so you can get SDI output.

If you don't need SDI, then OS-X is fine.

By the way - this has nothing to do with Iridas. Apple writes their own drivers, and does not support the NVidia SDI cards.

(Lin - correct me if I'm wrong...)

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA
(in Seoul)

[OlaHaldor]

So with IRIDAS, I cannot use Black Magic Decklink HD Extreme for output?!

[Hans von Sonntag]

So with IRIDAS, I cannot use Black Magic Decklink HD Extreme for output?!


You cannot. And it does not make sense if RT grading is your target. There are technical restrictions in this regard. Check Luki's post above. RT grading with SDI out is only possible on Windows.
Hans

[Kaku Ito]

I was wondering what if you connect the DVI to Matrox MXO then to SDI. Only provide 8-bit output though. Ouch.

[Hans von Sonntag]

I was wondering what if you connect the DVI to Matrox MXO then to SDI. Only provide 8-bit output though. Ouch.

I haven't tested by myself but a colourist I know checked it out and found some obstacles beeing the 8-bit limitationn the biggest one. Not to be recommended when transfer to tape and colour-critical work is the goal.

[zeus]

What are the reasons that DVI is inferior to SDI?

[Hans von Sonntag]

DVI is 8 bits only. Plus you cannot connect DVI to a HDSDI system such as a HDCAM SR tape machines. A second DVI port for monitoring eats a lot of the power of the graphics card. This is not the case with a Nvidia HDSDI board. Hence you've got much better performance of the grading system. SDI is not going to die in the next decade.

Hans

[Richard Bradbury]

Out of interest could you not use a Matrox MXO2 and connect via PCIe or ExpressCard? Would this not give you the option of 10-bit HD-SDI or HDMI monitoring? Would this not be realtime?

[mikeburton]

Just to chime in here, I have been working and testing SpeedGradeXR for quite a while and really have nothing but the best things to say about the app. To be fair, I also use Scratch and Color depending on the job. Lucas is correct, if you are going to invest in SpeedGrade get the software for Windows, get a 4800 fx cardw/SDI or higher with new i7 processors and a small or large RAID. Redcode is very CPU intensive.
From a users perspective, I love how SpeedGrade has your Overall, Highlight, Midtone and Shadow rooms seperated with lift, gamma, gain options for each. It is laid out very intuitively and is very powerfull. Some have mentioned how they don't like their conform tools but I must say that they are very easy to work with and can be as simple as drag and drop. There is a bit of a learning curve that comes with it especially if you are used to Color but it is quite a refreshing tool to work with once you get the hang of it. I would highly recommend this tool to any serious colorist.

[Gunleik Groven]

Considering testing...

As for Color, is DPXs the format of choice?

[zeus]

DVI is 8 bits only. A second DVI port for monitoring eats a lot of the power of the graphics card. This is not the case with a Nvidia HDSDI board. Hence you've got much better performance of the grading system. SDI is not going to die in the next decade.

Hans


Hans,

Thanks for the Info! I have been trying to figure that out for some time now.

[Hans von Sonntag]

Considering testing...

As for Color, is DPXs the format of choice?

I'm a longtime SpeedGrade user and like it a lot. It matured in the last year and the conforming tools are now working very well. Conforming from QT- Proxies or ProRes with a FCP/AVID EDL to R3D, DPX, QT-UC ProRes, CineForm is a breeze. It is quite stable and thanks to it's clever architecture I never lost one single grade even after a full system break down. But SpeedGrades particular strengths are it's delicate colour manipulation abilities.

Scratch and SpeedGrade are the two mid-end solution for everyone who is serious about grading. Which one of the two to choose it up to ones personal taste, how the desired applications are and how deep the pocket is. Both are very powerful and can grade off R3Ds in RT half debayer. This means off a Red 4K source you get full resolution 2K/1080p playback up to 30 fps.

You don't get such a performance with a cheap PC. Both applications need a powerful 8 Core Nethalem (HP Z800 for instance) and Nvidia Quadro 5800fx with SDI board. Not to mention an appropriate program monitor and Tangent controller - all together quite an investment. But like with the RedOne it does pay off. All the boutiques I know which invested in one of the two and delivered a decent Red workflow had much work to do (and still have).

Proper grading is for Red vital, which surely does not rule out Color - only if time is a factor, IMHO.

Hans

[Luca Immesi]

I was wondering what if you connect the DVI to Matrox MXO then to SDI. Only provide 8-bit output though. Ouch.
I've got a mac pro 8 core Two 2.66GHz Intel Xeon "Nehalem" processors with an ATI Radeon HD 4870 512MB and 12 gb of ram connected to an MXO with 2 cinema displays and one SDI Jvc broadcast CRT monitor. Although it's 8 bit I think it works really well especially with the gamma consistency of snow leopard.
I've got a common internal raid 0 of 3 tera and with 2k prores 4 I can have playback from 22 to 25 fps.

[Dave Blackham]

Hi, I've been working with Apple Color since the day it hit the shelves, and I'm pretty much confident with the tools and over time I've refined my workflow and most of the time I can produce something the clients will like in a very short amount of time.

However, one thing that's bugging me is how slow it can be sometimes. Playback from timeline is choppy and stuttering, about 12-20fps. There's nearly no difference if it's Prores SD PAL or RED RAW 4K.

My setup is a early 2008 Mac Pro (2 x 4 core cpu @ 2.66 GHz) 6GB RAM and I've got a RAID1 on eSATA, Decklink HD Extreme -> HD-SDI -> Panasonic LH1700w . As a freelancer, I can't really afford the most high-tech rocket science kind of technology, but I'm very happy with my setup.

So I'm thinking - is the application the bottleneck here?


I've been looking over at IRIDAS, since they're (as far as I know) the only Mac option out there. But which one would I chose?

SpeedGrade OnSet? Fairly cheap, works with RAW, but will it do the job like Color does, and how is the performance compared to Color? Primary in/out, secondaries, shaders alà Color FX room, custom masks?


Then there's SpeedGrade XR, very interesting piece of software, and I've checked the pricing - boy do I gotta get a load of jobs to get that baby even remotely close to home.



Where would you look? Better hardware? New software? Anything would help.

We had Final Touch now Color from day one. It needs the best graphics card you can get with in reason to run real time. So far as I recall this is what is happening. It has to pass HD QT files from the PCIE bus to the GPU and back to the video HBA to view. If you view just on a monitor connected to the GPU then it can work faster as its only inputing QT processing and then displaying. So you need at least PCIE (PCI is right on the edge for HD)and a fast GPU to do this. The newer better ATI cards should be fine, some while ago I think we had an X1900 working real time also. Perhaps it goes with out saying the cards need to be in the right slots of bandwidth is reduced.

[OlaHaldor]

Chiming in again. I totally forgot about this thread, among a lot of things happening since I first wrote here.


I ordered the software version of Da Vinci when I heard the news about it during NAB, and I'll probably have a copy asap in July when it launches.


Then the question is - what control panel do I need. It's obvious I want the top of the line Da Vinci control panel.. Who wouldn't ?

[jake blackstone]

Chiming in again. I totally forgot about this thread, among a lot of things happening since I first wrote here.


I ordered the software version of Da Vinci when I heard the news about it during NAB, and I'll probably have a copy asap in July when it launches.


Then the question is - what control panel do I need. It's obvious I want the top of the line Da Vinci control panel.. Who wouldn't ?

Right now your only choice, beside the DaVinci $29,995 panel is the Tangent Wave. The driver for Wave was internally developed by BM itself, as they didn't want to let anyone know about their plans. But they made it very clear, that the panel protocol will be widely available to any manufacturer, so it will be up to them to write the driver for Resolve. Personally, I believe, majority of them will support Resolve in very short order.
Incidentally, the old 2k panel will work just fine with the Linux Resolve, alas, not on the Mac Resolve...

[OlaHaldor]

Yeah, I came across this video (http://www.macvideo.tv/editing/features/index.cfm?articleId=3222371) and was mindblown when I saw what could be done with a simple setup - a Mac Pro with a GTX 285 GPU.

He also mentions they have contact and wish to help out JL Cooper and Euphonix as well.



I tested the Euphonix, and it felt really good. I haven't had the pleasure of testing other panels, but by looking at photos of the other alternatives, the Euphonix panel looks better, and is slightly smaller - thus easy to put aside when I need to do 3D or DVD programming etc..

[Peter Moretti]

IIRC, Speedgrade does not have curves controls. Some people hate to use curves and like hue offset wheels more, others like to have curves. If you like curves, you might want to double check to see if IRIDAS has em.

[jake blackstone]

Yeah, I came across this video (http://www.macvideo.tv/editing/features/index.cfm?articleId=3222371) and was mindblown when I saw what could be done with a simple setup - a Mac Pro with a GTX 285 GPU.



Actually, to run the resolve on the Mac you'll need two of GTX 285s

[Nick Shaw]

Actually, to run the resolve on the Mac you'll need two of GTX 285s

I had not read this. Where did you get that info?

On the video Ola linked to, the guy says he is using a Mac Pro with "a $500 graphics card." He also shows it can run on a MacBook Pro. This would imply that while it might benefit from two GTX285s, it does not require them.

[jake blackstone]

I had not read this. Where did you get that info?

On the video Ola linked to, the guy says he is using a Mac Pro with "a $500 graphics card." He also shows it can run on a MacBook Pro. This would imply that while it might benefit from two GTX285s, it does not require them.

The info is from BM, formerly DaVinci tech support and also I was told about it by the lead developer of the Resolve at NAB. Newest Macbook Pro does have two graphics cards, although I'm not sure, if both can be used at the same time. Resolve is set up to run not unlike the Baselight HD, where separate slave computer used to run just the colorist display. Same in Resolve. One GPU is used to run the display and scopes and second strictly for render. Perhaps Resolve could be used with just one card, something akin to Baselight 1, but then you wouldn't be able to get all the real time performance, that Resolve is truly capable of. Not sure if different GPUs can be used.
Said that, at NAB I was told, that there also no HDMI or DVI video output, only SDI from BM Decklink. No video spanning. I think, GTX 285 can provide the HDMI output at 12 bit, which wouldn't be a too bad of a solution for many colorists using plasmas or LCD. This also would free up a slot, that could be used for something else, like a RedRocket or perhaps a third GPU?

[Tom.Wong]

would getting a 4800 quadro solve the need for a dual gpu setup? and decklink for your sdi out? I plan to be running a color setup for a awhile, as ATI offers better acceleration for Color, but when I do make the upgrade to resolve it would be nice to know that I won't have to do such a major overhaul and sacrifice extra slots in my mac to get good results... aren't the gtx 285's huge? won't they cover up a slot to begin with?

[jake blackstone]

would getting a 4800 quadro solve the need for a dual gpu setup? and decklink for your sdi out? I plan to be running a color setup for a awhile, as ATI offers better acceleration for Color, but when I do make the upgrade to resolve it would be nice to know that I won't have to do such a major overhaul and sacrifice extra slots in my mac to get good results... aren't the gtx 285's huge? won't they cover up a slot to begin with?
Graphic card with SDI output doesn't exist on the Mac, as Mac OS doesn't support it.

[David Battistella]

Where is DaVinci Resolve in this discussion? Does everyone think it's not going to ship?

David

[jake blackstone]

Where is DaVinci Resolve in this discussion? Does everyone think it's not going to ship?

David

I don't want to answer for BM, but I will:-)
Davinci is just finding their footing in the independent filmmaker arena. They were always strictly professional high end grading market, so now they will have to adjust and that takes some time...
As far as shipping Resolve, according to what I have been told at NAB by BM, it will be shipped on the date (don't remember the exact date, but I think it's July, 1st or 31st) no matter what.

[Peace Villow]

Where is DaVinci Resolve in this discussion? Does everyone think it's not going to ship?

David

http://forums.creativecow.net/davinci

[Peter Chamberlain]

Hi All, we will ship as promoted at NAB. Formal system specs will be released before then, but for now I can confirm we use the current MacPro, GT120 for GUI and the GTX285 or the FX4800 for image processing, DeckLink HD Extreme 3D for video/audio I/O. That leaves one slot for FC or raid storage I/O card. Resolve is optimized for use with BMD panels but we will support others, Tangent Wave as shown at NAB is just the first. The Mac version is from the same code base as the Linux so we have 8 years experience and a few hundred Hollywood films under our belt. Any differences between systems are hardware/licensing/SDK related and not of our intention or restriction. The latest build r3d is supported in both platforms in realtime with rez and debayer established by hardware limits. And yes, as shown at NAB, the Mac version is really powerful with HD 4:4:4. Linux is simply wonderful for 2K, 4K or 3D.
Peter

[jake blackstone]

Hi All, we will ship as promoted at NAB. Formal system specs will be released before then, but for now I can confirm we use the current MacPro, GT120 for GUI and the GTX285 or the FX4800 for image processing, DeckLink HD Extreme 3D for video/audio I/O. That leaves one slot for FC or raid storage I/O card. Resolve is optimized for use with BMD panels but we will support others, Tangent Wave as shown at NAB is just the first. The Mac version is from the same code base as the Linux so we have 8 years experience and a few hundred Hollywood films under our belt. Any differences between systems are hardware/licensing/SDK related and not of our intention or restriction. The latest build r3d is supported in both platforms in realtime with rez and debayer established by hardware limits. And yes, as shown at NAB, the Mac version is really powerful with HD 4:4:4. Linux is simply wonderful for 2K, 4K or 3D.
Peter
Hi Peter.
It's good to see BM finally represented on the Reduser.
Just a couple of questions regarding Resolve on a Mac development plans.
Are there any plans to support an expansion chassis on a Mac?
Are there plans to support a HDMI or DVI output only, so DeckLink HD Extreme 3D will be unnecessary? If yes, can the second GTX 285 for real time 3D grading or Red Rocket be used instead? If not, how 3D real time grading can be achieved with R3D material?
Any plans for XML import implementation?
How about the support for .RMD?
How about Cineform and OpenEXR support?
Any plans for multilayer grading support?
Any plans for OFX API implementation?
Any plans to incorporate elements of Revival into Resolve?
Are you planning to offer some kind of stabilization and optical flow type retiming capabilities in Resolve?
Also curious if Resolve supports grades versioning and does it support TIFF?
Will Resolve be capable of supporting ethernet interface panels, like Tangent CP-100 or Euphonix or is it just USB interface?
I'm sure others will chime in as well...
BTW, what is the shipping date, that was promised at NAB?

[shashbugu]

Hi All, we will ship as promoted at NAB. Formal system specs will be released before then, but for now I can confirm we use the current MacPro, GT120 for GUI and the GTX285 or the FX4800 for image processing, DeckLink HD Extreme 3D for video/audio I/O. That leaves one slot for FC or raid storage I/O card. Resolve is optimized for use with BMD panels but we will support others, Tangent Wave as shown at NAB is just the first. The Mac version is from the same code base as the Linux so we have 8 years experience and a few hundred Hollywood films under our belt. Any differences between systems are hardware/licensing/SDK related and not of our intention or restriction. The latest build r3d is supported in both platforms in realtime with rez and debayer established by hardware limits. And yes, as shown at NAB, the Mac version is really powerful with HD 4:4:4. Linux is simply wonderful for 2K, 4K or 3D.
Peter

Welcome to the Reduser. We are all very excited about the release of Davinci Resolve on the Mac. In addition to Jakes questions
1. Will resolve Mac be scale-able for node based render farms?
2. will it have some of the conform tools that used to be in Splice?
3. will there be any new features apart from the new Interface?

Thanks

[Peter Chamberlain]

Thanks for your welcome and thanks for your questions. BMD policy is to discuss only formally announced or released features so while I cant report on the status of many of your questions I can say the feedback is very valuable as it helps us confirm the market requirements. We have a lot of projects under development and so I am confident you will soon see that BMD will continue to add features based on practical user needs.
Re the questions I can answer; we will support a number of third party panels for the Mac system and not only USB based. The Tangent Wave is just happens to be the first.
Resolve already permits multiple versions, multiple EDL's, and unlimited nodes. We have number of conform features inc ColorTrace which will save you hours of work moving grades from other jobs and other versions of projects.
Regarding new features released at NAB besides the GUI work - there were more than 20 shown and a few more added since then are also expected in the July shipment. A list of them is in the pipeline for formal release.
regards
Peter

[Chris Kenny]

Hi All, we will ship as promoted at NAB. Formal system specs will be released before then, but for now I can confirm we use the current MacPro, GT120 for GUI and the GTX285 or the FX4800 for image processing, DeckLink HD Extreme 3D for video/audio I/O.

We have a Decklink Extreme 3. Will that work, or does it really have to be the Extreme 3D?

Any chance of Red Rocket support? Yes, there's only one free slot after the two graphics cards and the Decklink, but for a system optimized for working with R3D footage rather than DPX, a RedRocket card might be a better choice for that slot than a RAID controller, given that R3D can be played back fine over FW800 and one can get six SATA drives into a Mac Pro without a RAID controller if one is sufficiently determined.

[conrad gaunt]

I've been looking over at IRIDAS, since they're (as far as I know) the only Mac option out there. But which one would I chose?

SpeedGrade OnSet? Fairly cheap, works with RAW, but will it do the job like Color does, and how is the performance compared to Color? Primary in/out, secondaries, shaders alà Color FX room, custom masks?


Then there's SpeedGrade XR, very interesting piece of software, and I've checked the pricing - boy do I gotta get a load of jobs to get that baby even remotely close to home.



Where would you look? Better hardware? New software? Anything would help.

Da Vinci (software only) $999, it'll probabably get you better results than colour, not sure about the speed though.

[shashbugu]

Da Vinci (software only) $999, it'll probabably get you better results than colour, not sure about the speed though.

Are you joking or are you serious?

[Charles Angus]

Are you joking or are you serious?

That was my thought, too...

[Alex Hastings]

I've been looking over at IRIDAS, since they're (as far as I know) the only Mac option out there. But which one would I chose?

SpeedGrade OnSet? Fairly cheap, works with RAW, but will it do the job like Color does, and how is the performance compared to Color? Primary in/out, secondaries, shaders alà Color FX room, custom masks?


Then there's SpeedGrade XR, very interesting piece of software, and I've checked the pricing - boy do I gotta get a load of jobs to get that baby even remotely close to home.



Where would you look? Better hardware? New software? Anything would help.



I think everyone should wait, the market is totally in a freefall right now, Speedgrade is just a grader, no tracking, no XML, no shape imports, no matt imports, no conform, no paint. As a grading tool its great, change color here now, thats all it can do, as a finishing tool, it doesn't have the chops. Its also a little pricey for just moving colors.

change color here now = iridas

[jake blackstone]

Thanks for your welcome and thanks for your questions. BMD policy is to discuss only formally announced or released features so while I cant report on the status of many of your questions I can say the feedback is very valuable as it helps us confirm the market requirements. We have a lot of projects under development and so I am confident you will soon see that BMD will continue to add features based on practical user needs.
Re the questions I can answer; we will support a number of third party panels for the Mac system and not only USB based. The Tangent Wave is just happens to be the first.
Resolve already permits multiple versions, multiple EDL's, and unlimited nodes. We have number of conform features inc ColorTrace which will save you hours of work moving grades from other jobs and other versions of projects.
Regarding new features released at NAB besides the GUI work - there were more than 20 shown and a few more added since then are also expected in the July shipment. A list of them is in the pipeline for formal release.
regards
Peter
Hello Peter.
Thank you for providing us with valuable information.
So, in light of the company policy, can you discuss features of the upcoming Resolve on the Mac, that are final?
Such as, does the Resolve on the Macbook Pro uses both available GPUs or just the NVIDIA? What kind of level of performance can one expect on Macbook Pro?
What is the expected release date for Resolve?
About versioning. I was wondering about an ability to create multiple versions of a grade of a single scene, such as director, agency, producer etc. versions.
Could you tell us a little about what kind of modifiers are available for grading? Such as film grade, video grade, keyers (what kind), shapes, HSL and RGB curves etc.? Is there an ability to do any kind of noise reduction or stabilization within Resolve?
BTW, now that you'd purchased DaVinci, IMHO, I think you could drop the Resolve name and go back to good old DaVinci. After all this, everyone still refers to the grading system as the Davinci and rarely Resolve.
Will there be Davinci presence at Cinegear?

[M Most]

Hello Peter.
About versioning. I was wondering about an ability to create multiple versions of a grade of a single scene, such as director, agency, producer etc. versions.
Could you tell us a little about what kind of modifiers are available for grading? Such as film grade, video grade, keyers (what kind), shapes, HSL and RGB curves etc.? Is there an ability to do any kind of noise reduction or stabilization within Resolve?

Jake, if you go to http://www.blackmagic-design.com/davinci/support/, you can download the manual and answer every one of those questions yourself. The software on both the Linux and Mac versions is in lock step, that has already been stated numerous times by various DaVinci representatives.

[jake blackstone]

Jake, if you go to http://www.blackmagic-design.com/davinci/support/, you can download the manual and answer every one of those questions yourself. The software on both the Linux and Mac versions is in lock step, that has already been stated numerous times by various DaVinci representatives.

Hi Mike.
The manual on the site is version 6 and not 7, as the Resolve on the Mac is.
Or I guess I just could wait for the release. It's not that far off.

[Peter Chamberlain]

DaVinci Resolve on Mac or Linux use either DeckLink HD Extreme 3 or 3D

Most other questions covered in old manual, thanks for the link mike.
Peter

[jake blackstone]

Most other questions covered in old manual, thanks for the link mike.
Peter

So, if that's is the case and the old manual also covers operation of the new version, then beside the new database foundation, can it be assumed, that V6 and V7 are mostly identical in all other respects?
Choosing color grading system is not a trivial matter. I'm trying to assess Resolve's capabilities and how it would fit into my existing workflow.
Presently, majority of existing Resolve users are career colorists, that over the years got used to workarounds and intricacies of various DaVinci products, combined with an incredible 24 hour tech support. Now it's all about to change.
Yes, $995 is an incredible game changer and great number of new users will be coming over from Color, which is effectively free. Admittedly, right now Color and FCP are hopelessly behind Resolve and Premiere in GPU technology. But what would happen, if Apple came out with the solution in June? Then FCP users would have an incentive to stay put, despite an allure of inexpensive Resolve. I know, to some it may sound ludicrous to compare the two, but many current Color users are pretty content with it's tool set. They may also decide to stay, simply because there would be almost no conform issues between FCP and Color and no steep learning curve to endure.
Or, what if FilmLight finally decided to release OS X version of Baselight on a desktop computer in addition to the existing Macbook Pro version, that they currently sell only to the Baselight owners for a $1k with a possible future upgrade path to the Linux version?
Obviously, all this is pure speculation on my part. Nevertheless, I personally, find it difficult to make an informed decision on a choice of color grading system with almost no public information, other than the operating manual, available. I hope this will change soon.

[shashbugu]

So, if that's is the case and the old manual also covers operation of the new version, then beside the new database foundation, can it be assumed, that V6 and V7 are mostly identical in all other respects?
Choosing color grading system is not a trivial matter. I'm trying to assess Resolve's capabilities and how it would fit into my existing workflow.
Presently, majority of existing Resolve users are career colorists, that over the years got used to workarounds and intricacies of various DaVinci products, combined with an incredible 24 hour tech support. Now it's all about to change.
Yes, $995 is an incredible game changer and great number of new users will be coming over from Color, which is effectively free. Admittedly, right now Color and FCP are hopelessly behind Resolve and Premiere in GPU technology. But what would happen, if Apple came out with the solution in June? Then FCP users would have an incentive to stay put, despite an allure of inexpensive Resolve. I know, to some it may sound ludicrous to compare the two, but many current Color users are pretty content with it's tool set. They may also decide to stay, simply because there would be almost no conform issues between FCP and Color and no steep learning curve to endure.
Or, what if FilmLight finally decided to release OS X version of Baselight on a desktop computer in addition to the existing Macbook Pro version, that they currently sell only to the Baselight owners for a $1k with a possible future upgrade path to the Linux version?
Obviously, all this is pure speculation on my part. Nevertheless, I personally, find it difficult to make an informed decision on a choice of color grading system with almost no public information, other than the operating manual, available. I hope this will change soon.

I agree with Jake, the silence from BM is really loud. I do commend you Peter for your presence on the forum.

Jake go to bed its late, you need to rest those eyes. LOL :eek:

Cheers

[Hans von Sonntag]

I think everyone should wait, the market is totally in a freefall right now, Speedgrade is just a grader, no tracking, no XML, no shape imports, no matt imports, no conform, no paint. As a grading tool its great, change color here now, thats all it can do, as a finishing tool, it doesn't have the chops. Its also a little pricey for just moving colors.

change color here now = iridas

Alex, I don't know where you have your knowledge but I recently conformed via EDL a project in SpeedGrade 2009. You also can use mattes within SpeedGrade. SpeedGrade 2010 will have a tracker.

Like with Scratch or Baselight SpeedGrade is primarily a grading tool. For TV-shows, features films and all projects that don't need complex VFX such tools are often sufficient for finishing.


Its also a little pricey for just moving colors.

Since it can do much more than "just" changing colours I find it worth every penny.


change color here now = iridas

I love it when people just from the hear-say put something down as "change color here now = iridas".

Hans

[jake blackstone]

I agree with Jake, the silence from BM is really loud. I do commend you Peter for your presence on the forum.

Jake go to bed its late, you need to rest those eyes. LOL :eek:

Cheers

Yes dad, I'm going to sleep:bigear:
I also applaud you Peter for your presence at this forum.
I'm not overly concerned, that every question is not being answered right away. Not discussing unreleased features is an understandable and widely accepted company policy.
I'm just hopeful, that BM will assume the marketing stance, that is closer to Red, than Apple, by interacting with customers and providing a meaningful company feedback, while disseminating a few morsels of information, even if it happens once in a while.
Red's provocative marketing delivers company philosophy very loud and clear - "Everything in life changes... including our camera specs and delivery dates...". Not many people complain, when delivery dates slip a little or some features get dropped. It would be interesting to see, if BM would follow Red's lead in creative and disruptive product marketing.

[craigjkharris]

Are you joking or are you serious?
He's totally serious!
The DaVinci on a MAC blows Apple Color out of the water. It does everything the full version of DaVinci does except for 2K, 3K, 4K and Stereoscopic. If you are finishing a project in HD then this is the bomb. If you are finishing for the screen then you need the Linux version or something like SpeedGrade / Scratch / Lustre etc.

[M Most]

He's totally serious!
The DaVinci on a MAC blows Apple Color out of the water.

Not if you've got a project that involves multiple video tracks.

Hans stated:

Like with Scratch or Baselight SpeedGrade is primarily a grading tool.

As someone who has used both extensively, I wouldn't call Scratch "primarily a grading tool." I would call it primarily a data management and conforming tool, with color tools added. I would call Baselight primarily a color corrector with conforming tools added. There are many, many seats of Scratch that are used almost exclusively for conforming and prep for projects being color graded on other systems. And there are many seats of Baselight that are never used for anything but grading, with the material being conformed on other systems (such as Scratch, Smoke, Nucoda, et. al.).

Only on RedUser do people seem to think of Scratch as "primarily a grading tool."

[Alex Hastings]

Alex, I don't know where you have your knowledge but I recently conformed via EDL a project in SpeedGrade 2009. You also can use mattes within SpeedGrade. SpeedGrade 2010 will have a tracker.

Like with Scratch or Baselight SpeedGrade is primarily a grading tool. For TV-shows, features films and all projects that don't need complex VFX such tools are often sufficient for finishing.



Since it can do much more than "just" changing colours I find it worth every penny.



I love it when people just from the hear-say put something down as "change color here now = iridas".

Hans

I have actually used SPEEDGRADE on a few jobs in our bid to buy it, sorry you took offense to my evaluation of the product, we almost bought the licenses, but we felt like it wasn't good enough for the price. It grades fine, but its not good for DI work or finishing. If you break down the prices of the complete DI/COLOR/CONFORM solutions from someone like NUCODA. You have to buy hardware, but the price of the software becomes a better deal. SPEEDGRADE is a great color grader, but that wasn't enough.

[shashbugu]

For some reason when people mention Scratch they, seam to undervalue its power. If your full time job is color correcting and finishing, hands down the best systems out there are Quantel, Baselight and Film-master. If you are full production filmmaker cut/color/conform, get a Scratch system. If you cut, visualfx, color and conform, then Smoke is a the tool to get.
I am not a smoke user or even a user of any of the above tools, but every post house I deal with usually have a smoke system in the corner that is pretty much the most versatile tool in the shed its just not as visually pleasing and organised as a Scratch system is.

[Hans von Sonntag]

I have actually used SPEEDGRADE on a few jobs in our bid to buy it, sorry you took offense to my evaluation of the product, we almost bought the licenses, but we felt like it wasn't good enough for the price.


Alex, no offense taken!

If friends of yours would build a fast station car and in a car forum someone would say something like "it's fast but has no trunk" you would chime in, wouldn't you?


It grades fine, but its not good for DI work or finishing. If you break down the prices of the complete DI/COLOR/CONFORM solutions from someone like NUCODA. You have to buy hardware, but the price of the software becomes a better deal. SPEEDGRADE is a great color grader, but that wasn't enough.

The great thing about SpeedGrade is the fact that it can run on any system and it eats almost every codec/picture sequence you can think of.

If you have a Mac Pro working station with FCP and whatnot, SpeedGrade would be a fine grading tool on this machine. If you were an Avid guy and run MC on a PC, just install SpeedGrade and off you go.

Off course Nvidia Quadro is recommended but it does work with cheaper nvidia cards. But you want decent graphics anyway.

Hans

[jake blackstone]

For some reason when people mention Scratch they, seam to undervalue its power. If your full time job is color correcting and finishing, hands down the best systems out there are Quantel, Baselight and Film-master. If you are full production filmmaker cut/color/conform, get a Scratch system. If you cut, visualfx, color and conform, then Smoke is a the tool to get.
I am not a smoke user or even a user of any of the above tools, but every post house I deal with usually have a smoke system in the corner that is pretty much the most versatile tool in the shed its just not as visually pleasing and organised as a Scratch system is.

Actually, you had neglected to mention the other two systems, that are part of that elite group- Lustre and Resolve. Company 3 and EFILM are pretty much at the top of the food chain in DI and they happened to use Resolve and Lustre respectively. Well, EFILM's Lustres are special case, but it's close enough for this argument...

[Hans von Sonntag]

I am not a smoke user or even a user of any of the above tools, but every post house I deal with usually have a smoke system in the corner that is pretty much the most versatile tool in the shed its just not as visually pleasing and organised as a Scratch system is.

I'm a Smoke user and, yes, it's very versatile. You don't have to hide in the corner of your boutique, on the contrary.

IMHO, Smoke on Mac is the biggest contender to the classic grading/finishing solutions. It's fast, very powerful in many means including editing, conforming, 3D compositing, text, painting and it's colour correcting tools are very good. For many projects it's a very meaningful solution for finishing because reconforming, versioning and archiving is as simple as it gets.

Maybe I'm biased but the Smoke's interface gives me a warm feeling reminding me of the times when Flame was the new star and Discreet the coolest company out there.

Hans

[jake blackstone]

I'm a Smoke user and, yes, it's very versatile. You don't have to hide in the corner of your boutique, on the contrary.

IMHO, Smoke on Mac is the biggest contender to the classic grading/finishing solutions. It's fast, very powerful in many means including editing, conforming, 3D compositing, text, painting and it's colour correcting tools are very good. For many projects it's a very meaningful solution for finishing because reconforming, versioning and archiving is as simple as it gets.

Maybe I'm biased but the Smoke's interface gives me a warm feeling reminding me of the times when Flame was the new star and Discreet the coolest company out there.

Hans
Smoke never was nor it will be the "biggest contender to the classic grading solutions". Grading anything beyond just a couple of shots with a pen or a mouse is a non starter. An ability to push or warp colors doesn't automatically make Smoke a "classic grading solution". Autodesk makes Lustre for a reason.

[shashbugu]

Actually, you had neglected to mention the other two systems, that are part of that elite group- Lustre and Resolve. Company 3 and EFILM are pretty much at the top of the food chain in DI and they happened to use Resolve and Lustre respectively. Well, EFILM's Lustres are special case, but it's close enough for this argument...

I am so sorry how could I forget Resolve and Lustre. Somebody smack me for this omission :banghead: (I am mad at BM for not yet releasing the Resolve Mac).

Quick question Jake, How would you rate Lustre vs Baselight, you have had experience with both?

[M Most]

Quick question Jake, How would you rate Lustre vs Baselight, you have had experience with both?

I'm not Jake, but I've had experience with all of these systems as well. "Lustre vs. Baselight" is a rather useless question because both (as well as Resolve, Film Master, Pablo, and Assimilate Scratch, for that matter) will do anything a colorist needs to do. There isn't any "either/or" other than personal preference and better integration with other tools you might already have or be planning to add. A competent colorist will get nearly identical results on any of these systems. Some features, screen displays, and control panels will appeal more to some than others, but functionally, at least in terms of grading tools, there's little difference.

Basically, what you're asking is more a facility issue than a colorist issue because the real differences between these systems are in workflow integration, format compatibility, native format support, and some other things that are relevant to a facility but not necessarily to a colorist (other than the native format support).

[roryhinds]

Don't you guys think that with Smoke @ $15k and Resolve @ $1k the land is changing for finishing work?

For $16k (software only) you can get a pretty powerful suite of tools.
Yes you don't get multi stream 4k but what you do get, you can do some pretty incredible work and for most people (not the super high end) these tools are prefect.

[Erik Franzén]

Allow me to totally derail and interrupt you guys - sorry, but I have a question. Roughly estimated, how much would colour grading eat up for a decent budget feature? I mean, what would hiring a pro colour grader or two cost at an average? Or would that be out of the question and you'd instead use a proper post-production facility? And if so, how much would that generally cost? Is it dependent on the running length of the footage or complexity or...?

Sorry again for derailing, but I got curious about this question and couldn't quite get it answered any other way.
Thanks!

[Jay Gannon]

Erik, it wont be cheap but no-one will quote you without a look at your footage, it depends on number of cuts complexity of grading and many other factors.

[jake blackstone]

I'm not Jake, but I've had experience with all of these systems as well. "Lustre vs. Baselight" is a rather useless question because both (as well as Resolve, Film Master, Pablo, and Assimilate Scratch, for that matter) will do anything a colorist needs to do. There isn't any "either/or" other than personal preference and better integration with other tools you might already have or be planning to add. A competent colorist will get nearly identical results on any of these systems. Some features, screen displays, and control panels will appeal more to some than others, but functionally, at least in terms of grading tools, there's little difference.

Basically, what you're asking is more a facility issue than a colorist issue because the real differences between these systems are in workflow integration, format compatibility, native format support, and some other things that are relevant to a facility but not necessarily to a colorist (other than the native format support).

And I'm not Mike:-)
Yes, of coarse you're correct. The days of not being able to create a circle mask on Pogle are long gone.
With the variety of new tools available, it becomes more apparent the importance of a talented colorist and less of the tools used.
Facility integration become less of an important consideration for an individual user color correcting away in a basement or a garage. But then, he wouldn't be grading on Baselight or Lustre, more like Resolve, Color or Scratch.
Said that, with Lustre, in order to use anything other than DPX or TIFF, Wiretap needs to be set up and that is not a casual endeavor, not is it inexpensive. On the other hand, Baselight will happily import pretty much anything you throw at it.
On a facility level, Smoke and Lustre with a Wiretap is an unbeatable combo in terms of workflow and speed.
In terms of purely ergonomics preference, Baselight with Blackboard IMHO is close to a perfection.

[jake blackstone]

Allow me to totally derail and interrupt you guys - sorry, but I have a question. Roughly estimated, how much would colour grading eat up for a decent budget feature? I mean, what would hiring a pro colour grader or two cost at an average? Or would that be out of the question and you'd instead use a proper post-production facility? And if so, how much would that generally cost? Is it dependent on the running length of the footage or complexity or...?

Sorry again for derailing, but I got curious about this question and couldn't quite get it answered any other way.
Thanks!

Prices can range from "free" by someone starting out as a colorist to $250k and up at the top LA DI houses.

[Pasha Patriki]

I just read the whole thread - every post carried a valuable piece of info, thank you very much everyone participating!
I am a DP, and am currently setting up a smiple grading solution in my basement (just like discussed above!).
As resolve is not out yet, my no-budget choice TODAY is Color.
There was much discussion here about teh fact that Mac does not support SDI boards, so what is the ususal setup then, when you need to have your program monitor (Sony, Panasonic, Eizo or HP?), also a client monitor (a large professional Panasonic plasma is what I am thinking of), and two regular monitors for software interface and scopes.

CAn I have all these monitors runs via DVI-outs (I guess I would need two standrad GT120 graphics cards for that?) There's also an option to use Mini-DisplayPort to HDMI adapters and run all monitors through HDMI? Would it be 12-bit? oR am I stuck with 8-bit?

I've seen Mac tower setups with AJA Kona SDI cards, does that not address the issue of not being able to have an SDI monitor?

I am far from being a guru when it comes to I/O in post environment, so I am hoping someone can shed some light into my dark cave.


Cheers.

[Alex Hastings]

I just read the whole thread - every post carried a valuable piece of info, thank you very much everyone participating!
I am a DP, and am currently setting up a smiple grading solution in my basement (just like discussed above!).
As resolve is not out yet, my no-budget choice TODAY is Color.
There was much discussion here about teh fact that Mac does not support SDI boards, so what is the ususal setup then, when you need to have your program monitor (Sony, Panasonic, Eizo or HP?), also a client monitor (a large professional Panasonic plasma is what I am thinking of), and two regular monitors for software interface and scopes.

When they say SDI, they mean the SDI daughter to the GPU, like the NVIDIA 5800, has an option SDI board, so it becomes the NVIDIA QUADRO FX 5800 SDI. The enables the GPU to send any color changes directly from the GPU to the SDI and enabling realtime preview and sometimes realtime deliverables. It is basically an SDI extension of the GPU and has all the power the GPU provides out the SDI.



CAn I have all these monitors runs via DVI-outs (I guess I would need two standrad GT120 graphics cards for that?) There's also an option to use Mini-DisplayPort to HDMI adapters and run all monitors through HDMI? Would it be 12-bit? oR am I stuck with 8-bit?


Buy a GPU based on a system and what is specked out for optimal and recommended performance, not based on what's at a local PC or gaming shop. The GT120 is a very low end consumer card, its like a $100 card, you'll get about $100 worth of color grading out of it.

Filmlight's Baselight, which is the best color grader on the market has a really cool way of pulling 12bit from the DVI, it uses its own 12bit DVI drivers, then does a DVI to SDI conversion, so it doesn't have to wait for NVIDIA to update its SDI daughter drivers. Its very slick, but you have to own a Baselight. Around 90k for a complete solution. You should look into this system.

Not many other vendors can not get more than 8bit out of the DVI. The HDMI out of a GPU will not be what you want. It will either be at only the specs of the monitor or it will be an either or kinda of HDMI. Either HDMI or DVI. If you want HDMI get a Blackmagic Design: Intensity Pro HDMI board.



I've seen Mac tower setups with AJA Kona SDI cards, does that not address the issue of not being able to have an SDI monitor?

I am far from being a guru when it comes to I/O in post environment, so I am hoping someone can shed some light into my dark cave.


Cheers.

The AJA Kona3 has SDI, but it is a broadcast card, not a GPU card, the data goes from the GPU to the KONA then out to the broadcast monitor via the KONA, there is a little lag time, and doesn't have the same capabilities as the GPU taking the image out the SDI daughter.

You want simple Mac solution...

MacPro, FCP Suite, KONA3, ATI Radeon HD 4870 1GB(HACKED FROM PC--CAN FIND ON EBAY)

Then from there any monitors or monitoring solutions, like pro-plasma, Broadcast LCD, whatever it is you want.

This is as fast as a Apple Color suite as you can get.

[jake blackstone]

Filmlight's Baselight, which is the best color grader on the market has a really cool way of pulling 12bit from the DVI, it uses its own 12bit DVI drivers, then does a DVI to SDI conversion, so it doesn't have to wait for NVIDIA to update its SDI daughter drivers. Its very slick, but you have to own a Baselight. Around 90k for a complete solution. You should look into this system.


Actually , to my knowledge, the conversion is done by Truelight, which is available separately for purchase. BM card will provide essentially same functionality for the Resolve on the Mac, except, that the connection is done internally through the mother board. Truelight uses dual DVI output, delivered by standard GPU card inside the Baselight. There could be some special GPU drivers, that Filmlight may be employing, as they basically ran their own OS (FLOS variation of CentOS) on the Baselight, so they're free to do whatever they want. The main reason why Baselight is so versatile and flexible, is because FilmLight uses it's own OS for Baselight to run, hence very specific to FilmLight SDI solution.

[Pasha Patriki]

Thanks Alex!

The trick is that I need to have 4 monitors: 2 monitors for Color interface + 2 Preview video monitors.
Can I configure that way without Kona3? (assuming I don"t ever need to output HDSDI or SDI to a deck).
Would I need two 4870 cards - to run 4 monitors?
If I have two 4870's, would that speed up the Color rendering?

Or should I have one 4870 plus two Intensity Pro HDMI cards - the two HDMI cards would run the two external video monitors?

And pardon me being so uneducated - I am confused still whether I can get 10-bit or 12-bit HDMI. Can I? Or is it all 8-bit, DVI AND HDMI?

[Alex Hastings]

Thanks Alex!

The trick is that I need to have 4 monitors: 2 monitors for Color interface + 2 Preview video monitors.


Why do you need this?? Not sure why you need desktop monitors and 2 color preview off the computers. Can you explain why you need that?

If you need lots of preview monitors, you do not need extra cards, you can just do a loop through from one monitor to the next. So computer connects to monitor A, monitor A connects to monitor B, and so and and so on, forever up to monitor Z, etc.



Can I configure that way without Kona3? (assuming I don"t ever need to output HDSDI or SDI to a deck).
Would I need two 4870 cards - to run 4 monitors?
If I have two 4870's, would that speed up the Color rendering?


Don't think of the DVI out of the video card the same things as the broadcast signal out of the KONA card. You can, if you are a blind grader, meaning you can just grade using a high quality waveform and vectrascrope, but you need the signal to be accurate. The DVI out of your NVIDIA or ATI video is not setup that way, it is not accurate when using Apple COLOR. Neither OS X or Apple Color are setup to give you what you want out of the DVI. Other programs and OS's can do this, but don't try. I can tell by your posts this is not what you want, or the way to go.

Also I have no idea why you need so many video cards??



Or should I have one 4870 plus two Intensity Pro HDMI cards - the two HDMI cards would run the two external video monitors?
Yeah, That is a lot of stuff. So, maybe you should backtrack and explain what you want to do...

This is confusing, why do you need TWO HDMI cards??



And pardon me being so uneducated - I am confused still whether I can get 10-bit or 12-bit HDMI. Can I? Or is it all 8-bit, DVI AND HDMI?

Some computers can, some software can't, but you can't and Apple Color and the other grading tools you will probably be able to afford can't either. You can convert a 10bit signal to a 10bit HDMI signal. It was part of the HDMI 1.3 guidelines, but everything along that HDMI pipe has to be that level. Not an issue if using newer quality gear, but with consumer grade stuff its a gamble. BUT you will not be able to convert an DVI signal to something greater than 8bit out of OS X or Apple Color.

Why so many monitors again?

[Pasha Patriki]

Is it that many monitors? Two are computer monitors, one for the software and the second for the scopes. And then two video monitors - one for you and one for the client.
I am not a grader, but I will have real graders use the system. I am just in charge of building it. :))

[roryhinds]

And I'm not Mike:-)
... he wouldn't be grading on Baselight or Lustre, more like Resolve, Color or Scratch.

Baselight is around the same price as Scratch now with their price reduction.

[Alex Hastings]

Is it that many monitors? Two are computer monitors, one for the software and the second for the scopes. And then two video monitors - one for you and one for the client.
I am not a grader, but I will have real graders use the system. I am just in charge of building it. :))


"Two are computer monitors, one for the software and the second for the scopes."
-- That is fine, Apple Color likes two monitors. This would be accomplished by your

1 x ATI Radeon HD 4870

If you are talking about another type of SCOPES on the LCD, something from Blackmagic or OmniTek. That is a different setup all together.


"And then two video monitors - one for you and one for the client" -- Like I said you can just do a loop through from one signal to Monitor, then that monitor sends another signal to another monitor. This would be accomplished by your

1 x AJA KONA3

Also the KONA3 has two digital outputs, so you could do two 4:2:2 signals or one 4:4:4 signal.

Also know that the "And then two video monitors - one for you and one for the client" you talk about, can not be from an ATI or NVIDIA video card, they have to be from a Kona card.

Also I do not think that the blackmagic HDMI card will work with apple color, I might be wrong, but I would check to see if that is even supported with apple color.


I am not a grader, but I will have real graders use the system. I am just in charge of building it. :))

Not to be rude, but you might want to have a grader spec out a system for you. Just ask one of the people who might use it how to build it for you. I think there is a little confusion as to what each video card does and why you need a Kona card. You might be better off having one of these potential graders show you, then you can see, hands on, how the systems operative. As a freelance colorist I would be able to tell if a system is setup weird or not built by an engineer or a colorist, I would be very hesitant to rent it.

Like I said before,

MacPro, FCP Suite, KONA3, ATI Radeon HD 4870 1GB

For broadcast monitors, for yourself and client, that is up to you.

[Alex Hastings]

Baselight is around the same price as Scratch now with their price reduction.

Yes Baselight pretty much rules. And you can get the HD Baselight for ~90k, for a complete system. Scratch can do things Baselight can't. Scratch has more conform tools, and in some cases people use Scratch to prep a project for Baselight, but as a grading tool, IMHO, Baselight is the best color grader out there. If you just want to color, Baselight can do it very well with an amazing toolset and workflow.

[jake blackstone]

Scratch has more conform tools

Not sure what tools you're referring to. Although, I find Scratch conforming toolset very capable and fast, I'm not aware of any capabilities in Scratch, that Baselight can't match or exceed. Multilayer timeline or AAF read capability among few things, that come to mind. V 5 may have some additional capabilities., I don't know.. Until recently Scratch was used for conforming for the Baselight, but with new Baselight pricing, it looks less of an advantage. And if FilmLight finally decides to offer their $1k version of Baselight on a Mac for sale, there will be no more need for conforming with something else.

Scratch can do things Baselight can't.
Like what?

[jake blackstone]

Yes Baselight pretty much rules. And you can get the HD Baselight for ~90k, for a complete system. Scratch can do things Baselight can't. Scratch has more conform tools, and in some cases people use Scratch to prep a project for Baselight, but as a grading tool, IMHO, Baselight is the best color grader out there. If you just want to color, Baselight can do it very well with an amazing toolset and workflow.

BTW, Baselight HD includes Blackboard control surface-the Ferrari of all panels. With Scratch you'd use just what, Wave or CP-200? To me personally, Blackboard control surface by itself is worth the price of admission. To my knowledge, a year ago, Blackboard was by itself selling for well over $50k. Or you can skip it and just use JL Cooper as a control surface and save yourself even more. I wonder, if at that price it also includes the Truelight.

[Alex Hastings]

Like what?
I am in no way defending scratch as a grading tool, and I don't see any advantage with Scratch over the Baselight HD as a grading tool. There are things in Scratch like painting and some of the layer effects that can be used for down and dirty composting. Baselight does not have any painting tools. There are probably some more, LUCAS could probably give you the laundry list.

[craigjkharris]

Iridas vs. Color....?
Iridas!

Iridas vs. Scratch....?
Iridas! (I think you will soon see SG & FC integrate RED Rocket support)
Iridas can ingest many different RAW formats from multiple cameras and costs considerably less than Scratch... AND Scratch which won't take as many camera formats. Don't forget that Iridas provides some of the most advanced and automated 3D tools of any system in the world - which is becoming more and more important. Scratch's 3D toolset is lame - no matter how much they try to sell themselves as a leader in 3D.

Iridas vs. Baselight....?
I think Baselight wins. Depending on budget though.
Iridas is making some incredible advances and additions to it's applications that continually bring it closer to a Baselight system.


Craig

[roryhinds]

What about Iridas vs Resolve?
Pretty hard to beat Resolve and now with its new price point... well...

[craigjkharris]

What about Iridas vs Resolve?
Pretty hard to beat Resolve and now with its new price point... well...

The Resolve is awesome too.

Iridas vs. Resolve 3D....?
Iridas


Iridas vs. Resolve for color correction....?
Probably Resolve for a better all around tool set and control panel.
What I do like about Iridas better though it it's ability to ingest many RAW formats.

Price Point?
By the time the Resolve system can do 2K-4K, you'll end up investing about 100K-120K.

Both rock and I'd like both in my suite :)

[OlaHaldor]

What about Iridas vs Resolve?
Pretty hard to beat Resolve and now with its new price point... well...

I first posted this question exactly one year ago (we're three days early for the anniversary!). At that time, DaVinci Resolve was not anything like I would imagine it would be today. And I'm talking about the pricing of course..

I didn't get Iridas, I kept going on with Color -and now I'm ready to wrap my head around DaVinci Resolve, once it's released.

I'm waiting for a reply for a loan. If I get it I'll without a doubt go for the Mac with Resolve panel route as a starter. If not, I'll be sitting on the fence and wait for the Euphonix MC Color to support Resolve.

Philosophy: aim high, go nuts. If not, go for plan B and take the second best option.

[Lucas Wilson]

Iridas vs. Color....?
Iridas vs. Scratch....?
Iridas! (I think you will soon see SG & FC integrate RED Rocket support)

Soon does not equal now, and having been doing it since before RR was released. Soon does also not equal being the only vendor to support multiple RR cards for Stereo playback and accelerated single stream playback/rendeing.


Iridas can ingest many different RAW formats from multiple cameras

True. They are the leaders here and have done a great job with that.


and costs considerably less than Scratch...

Wrong, unless you're comparing Framecycler to SCRATCH FINISH. Try comparing a turnkley Rocket Fuel system to a turnkey SG system.


Scratch's 3D toolset is lame - no matter how much they try to sell themselves as a leader in 3D.

Waiting to hear actual reasons why instead of gossip and opinion.

If you'd like to have a fact-based discussion about this, I'm all ears.

Lucas

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

[Rick Turners]

Can Resolve on mac Input and output 2k/4k material? (I dont care if its real time)

Even Color can I/O 2k/4k

[jake blackstone]

Can Resolve on mac Input and output 2k/4k material? (I dont care if its real time)

Even Color can I/O 2k/4k

Yes

[craigjkharris]

Yes

No. It's output is limited to HD.

[craigjkharris]

Soon does not equal now, and having been doing it since before RR was released. Soon does also not equal being the only vendor to support multiple RR cards for Stereo playback and accelerated single stream playback/rendeing.

If RED is the only camera you're going to use for stereo then you have something great. It does make a difference knowing that you won't be the only company in the SOON future.




True. They are the leaders here and have done a great job with that.
That is huge for this industry.




Wrong, unless you're comparing Framecycler to SCRATCH FINISH. Try comparing a turnkley Rocket Fuel system to a turnkey SG system.
Again, if you are only using RED than price point is good on a Rocket Fuel system. What about the majority of the film industry that works with multiple cameras? And on the same shoot? RED, Phantom, Wiesscam, SI2K, etc.




Waiting to hear actual reasons why instead of gossip and opinion.
Do you have any automated 3D tools that speed up the process for convergence, left & right eye colour, key-stoning etc? How would you handle 3D on a Rocket Fuel package?


If you'd like to have a fact-based discussion about this, I'm all ears.
Sure.

[Lucas Wilson]

If RED is the only camera you're going to use for stereo then you have something great.

Well... this IS Reduser! : )


Again, if you are only using RED than price point is good on a Rocket Fuel system. What about the majority of the film industry that works with multiple cameras? And on the same shoot? RED, Phantom, Wiesscam, SI2K, etc.

RED is not the only RAW format we support. But this is not the right place to discuss our support for other cameras.

A SCRATCH FINISH system, supporting all formats, is comparably priced to fully kitted Speedgrade system. And when you get right down to it - all of the vendors work hard on not letting price be the sole issue that determines a sale.


Do you have any automated 3D tools that speed up the process for convergence, left & right eye colour, key-stoning etc?

Automated as in unassisted? No.
Features that deal with all those issues? Yes.

Here are a few other things to think about:

1) Conform
SCRATCH has several different tools that deal specifically with the various problems and offsets that can occur in stereo finishing.

2) Stereo Dailies
SCRATCH has partnered with Telairity since early 2010 to deliver remote stereo dailies on standard, non-leased bandwidth.

3) Stereo Layoff
We have specifically worked with Sony to be able to do realtime stereo layoffs to the 5800 deck in 880 mode to deliver stereo dailies.

4) Color reconform
SCRATCH has specific tools to reconform LE/RE timelines based on recuts... with the ability to intelligently reconform pre-existing color grades to new lists.

5) Stereo Render
Automatic creation of Stereo Output Nodes to faciliate dual-layer simultaneous rendering.

Not saying that others don't have similar features... just pointing out that you're going for the gee-whiz hot-button stuff and ignoring a ton of other work that has to go into getting stereo projects done.


How would you handle 3D on a Rocket Fuel package?

Buy an additional RED Rocket card so that stereo R3D can be handled in realtime, load up footage and press play.

Lucas

[jake blackstone]

No. It's output is limited to HD.

Well, you should check your sources again:-) Resolve on a Mac isn't limited in resolution in any way, shape or form. For this matter, Resolve on a Mac, in comparison to it's $50k big brother, Resolve on a Linux, isn't limited at all. The difference, is you will be limited to HD ONLY for real time grading, but you can grade and render 4k. I believe, that was the question. And that is what so remarkable about Resolve on a Mac $1k package.

[craigjkharris]

Well, you should check your sources again:-) Resolve on a Mac isn't limited in resolution in any way, shape or form. For this matter, Resolve on a Mac, in comparison to it's $50k big brother, Resolve on a Linux, isn't limited at all. The difference, is you will be limited to HD ONLY for real time grading, but you can grade and render 4k. I believe, that was the question. And that is what so remarkable about Resolve on a Mac $1k package.

Are you sure about that?
I was told at NAB by one of the Black Magic reps that output would be limited to HD and that it will not be able to do 3D. It makes sense from their position to do this as well... creating a market for their $50K system.

Can you provide a link to any official documentation / threads that show it will output anything larger than HD?

[jake blackstone]

Are you sure about that?
I was told at NAB by one of the Black Magic reps that output would be limited to HD and that it will not be able to do 3D. It makes sense from their position to do this as well... creating a market for their $50K system.

Can you provide a link to any official documentation / threads that show it will output anything larger than HD?

Yes, I'm sure about it. BM said from very beginning, including Grant Petty, that they're not going to limit Resolve on a Mac in any way. This software is not crippled in any way whatsoever, like Cineform, where you have to pay extra for higher resolution. Unfortunately Resolve on a Mac is crippled, because of lack of hardware slots and not because BM designed it this way. And that is why you will not be able to grade 3D. But Resolve on a Mac will be able to render 4k.

[craigjkharris]

Yes, I'm sure about it. BM said from very beginning, including Grant Petty, that they're not going to limit Resolve on a Mac in any way. This software is not crippled in any way whatsoever, like Cineform, where you have to pay extra for higher resolution. Unfortunately Resolve on a Mac is crippled, because of lack of hardware slots and not because BM designed it this way. And that is why you will not be able to grade 3D. But Resolve on a Mac will be able to render 4k.

I guess we'll have to wait and see :)
I was informed by a BM rep that it would not output 2K-4K and that you'd need the $50K version for that. You still have all the real time capabilities of the $50K version but with limited output and 3D.

[Rick Turners]

If that is true it puts everyone back at square one and the only decent mac DI solution (2k output) is Color.

[Jay Gannon]

This means DaVinci Resolve on Mac is a fantastic solution for SD and HD, and even 2K. Colorists can rotate images, re-frame, add corrections, blurs and trackers, and then just hit play, and it’s all real time. Plus, because no features are disabled on this software only version, when faster GPU cards are released in the future, customers can simply plug them in for more power. This really is a true high end color correction system.

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/press/detail.asp?pressID=193

Its limited only by the power of the GPU.

[craigjkharris]

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/press/detail.asp?pressID=193

Its limited only by the power of the GPU.

Very cool.

[Peter Chamberlain]

We have just published on the BMD-DaVinci web site the Mac configuration guide and as it states you can build a MacPro system with a Rocket and grade r3d natively in real time (Set the Rocket decode to half res to grade your 4k r3d, full to render).
DaVinci Resolve does not limit in software the resolution to HD so you can set the timeline for 4K RGB uncompressed; of course with the limited slots in the MacPro that's a lot of image in the one GPU so you wont see real time playback in that mode. HD 4:4:4 is fine and real time.
Oh, and we do have a Stereoscopic monitoring mode on the single chassis Mac and Linux systems in V7.0 so the HD-SDI (or HDMI) can have a side-by-side or line mesh output to your 3D monitor. The 3D Linux systems can have two Rockets and also dual 444 x HD-SDI out for stereoscopic r3d with full bandwidth and color space monitoring, real time. With a second Linux chassis and GPU's you can grade 15+ nodes in each eye. Renders close to real time too.
Peter

[Gabriele Turchi]

Hi Peter,

are you saying that even the Mac version can grade stereo?

PS:release date ????

Thanks

g

[jake blackstone]

Hi Peter,

are you saying that even the Mac version can grade stereo?

PS:release date ????

Thanks

g

Yes, you can, not in real time though.

[Nook Kim]

Iridas looks very promising with its RR support now and new 3D technology implemented. If Color is supported by RR, I won't switch for a year, but it's very unlikely. So.. Iridas or Davinci on Mac.. that's my question.

[Sven Seynaeve]

Looks like speedgrade could become a winner....

at least i could say , I want 2x rocket support and 2x hd or 2k output to projector for s3d. The one that could deliver that, with a could set of options and good workflow.....and a nice pricetag ;;;;:)

[craigjkharris]

Iridas looks very promising with its RR support now and new 3D technology implemented. If Color is supported by RR, I won't switch for a year, but it's very unlikely. So.. Iridas or Davinci on Mac.. that's my question.

Color is supported by RR for playback. However, the render times do not seem to be improved.

[Alex Hastings]

SpeedGrade DI 2010 is listed at USD $38,995. Not sure how a free app and a $1,000 app are being compared to a $38,995 app, Am I missing something? Why are people saying it sounds like a great price, is SpeedGrade DI lowering its price because of DaVinci?

[Sven Seynaeve]

We have just published on the BMD-DaVinci web site the Mac configuration guide and as it states you can build a MacPro system with a Rocket and grade r3d natively in real time (Set the Rocket decode to half res to grade your 4k r3d, full to render).
DaVinci Resolve does not limit in software the resolution to HD so you can set the timeline for 4K RGB uncompressed; of course with the limited slots in the MacPro that's a lot of image in the one GPU so you wont see real time playback in that mode. HD 4:4:4 is fine and real time.
Oh, and we do have a Stereoscopic monitoring mode on the single chassis Mac and Linux systems in V7.0 so the HD-SDI (or HDMI) can have a side-by-side or line mesh output to your 3D monitor. The 3D Linux systems can have two Rockets and also dual 444 x HD-SDI out for stereoscopic r3d with full bandwidth and color space monitoring, real time. With a second Linux chassis and GPU's you can grade 15+ nodes in each eye. Renders close to real time too.
Peter

Forgive my ignorance,
but how can the number of slots for putting 2 graphic cards or 2 rockets be a limiting factor to the mac sollution, when such things as expansion chassis systems are out here for some time by now for pci-e????
Why does this makes a linux system any better. In the audio world we use a chassis for exactly the same reason , because we never get enough slots, even if you have 7 pci-e x16n there will always be the need for one more for extra dsp or extra i/o or something, at least that's what I'm dealing with most of the time, because it's just this 1 card that can make such a investment worths it's money and effort to built it.
So why exactly are we forced to have a linux system then , when with what I've always been told , that osx is a close variant of linux, can't be to far off for being able to run a color sollution.
I haven't had chats with Iridas on this side regarding there mac sollutions, but from what I know, they are able, at least as I could remember to use the mac for their di system (they remember them mentioning to get along with somehting like an hp z800 system, but I know they support the mac, and they assured I could put 2 rockets in their systems by now.

[Nook Kim]

Color is supported by RR for playback. However, the render times do not seem to be improved.

Note the date of my posting. Color wasn't supported back then.
Also, you have something going wrong if you don't see improvement
on render.

[Nook Kim]

SpeedGrade DI 2010 is listed at USD $38,995. Not sure how a free app and a $1,000 app are being compared to a $38,995 app, Am I missing something? Why are people saying it sounds like a great price, is SpeedGrade DI lowering its price because of DaVinci?

I see many people wonder the same. The thing is if you configure
a color system for professional lines of work, software doesn't really
take up a big part of your budget. I know it does.. but when you
factor in the proper working environment, color-accurate monitoring
system, storage system, your serious Mac Pro, and the beverage consumed by your clients, etc, etc..

Simple math for me: a DI suite with Color, DaVinci, or Iridas they
are about the same price.

[Alex Hastings]

I see many people wonder the same. The thing is if you configure
a color system for professional lines of work, software doesn't really
take up a big part of your budget. I know it does.. but when you
factor in the proper working environment, color-accurate monitoring
system, storage system, your serious Mac Pro, and the beverage consumed by your clients, etc, etc..

Simple math for me: a DI suite with Color, DaVinci, or Iridas they
are about the same price.

Don't follow your logic, I just built a DaVinci Color grading room for $38,995 less than it would of cost me to build the comparably equipped Speedgrade DI room.

[Nook Kim]

Don't follow your logic, I just built a DaVinci Color grading room for $38,995 less than it would of cost me to build the comparably equipped Speedgrade DI room.

That's good for you, but my grading monitor alone costs about $30,000, my storage costs $20,000, etc..

[Uli Plank]

Well, there are pretty good monitors from Flanders Scientific for far less.

[Frank Cueto]

Uli, those are nice, but ony if you intend to do REC.709...

[Nook Kim]

Well, there are pretty good monitors from Flanders Scientific for far less.

If that is a grade one monitor intended for color critical work,
I will take a look. But for now I'm sticking with my Cinemage 42",
which is the absolute best reference monitor on the planet. Period.

[Frank Cueto]

NOOK, the cinemages are great indeed(got one here myself), but certainly not THE BEST.

I have heard GREAT things about the new DOLBY REFERENCE MONITORS, including that they can run you about $50,000!!! And may just be the new reference standard, time will tell.

[Adam Eden]

Look guys I have been colour grading (NOTE COLOUR WITH A U AS IM AUSTRALIAN!) for over 20 years. Nothing beats a Sony BVM grade 1 dual link broadcast monitor on either a 4k DaVinci or my personal favourite AVID Symphony Nitris DX. I perform a "best light" transfer from RED ROCKET on a Sony BVM with appropriate Tektronix waveform monitor vectorscope straight into my Symphony. We digitize at 1:10 10bit and have the best look around. There is no software package on the market without appropriate matching hardware like DaVinci or Avid that is comparable. Everything else adds noise or other mosquito noise artifacts. In Australia a SONY BVM along side a Tektronix scope is industry standard and they DONT LIE! Final cuts PRO RES doesn't cut the mustard in OZ. I work in either 440 mbS or 880 mbS

By working this hi res you would be amazed on how far I can push vision especially Canon 5D/7D. We convert all footage to a minimum of 1:1 10bit uncompressed full HD.

But as a final thought we still have a current model Sony Bravia XBR in our main online suite as people watch all of our productions on standard LCD/Plasmas/LEDS so when we grade, we try to make the image as appeasing on both monitors.

[Alex Hastings]

That's good for you, but my grading monitor alone costs about $30,000, my storage costs $20,000, etc..

So did mine, well storage was 16k and monitors about 20k and my software was only 1k.

[craigjkharris]

Simple math for me: a DI suite with Color, DaVinci, or Iridas they
are about the same price.

Sorry, but are you considering the cost of the software in your estimation? If so, the Iridas suite will cost significantly more. 19-35K more.

[shashbugu]

funny how this thread got winded out, based on calibration monitors.

Well all the various software announced at NAB are now available including Storm. The most talked about grading tool in the industry today is Speedgrade DI. I have personally never seen it in action, so I cant chime in. But from the above thread Baselight seemed to be the tool to buy.

[Frank Cueto]

Sure was that way for us. We payed dearly for Baselight. Huge investment. Would definitely do it again with hindsight!

[Hans von Sonntag]

Sorry, but are you considering the cost of the software in your estimation? If so, the Iridas suite will cost significantly more. 19-35K more.

SpeedGrade XR costs 15k. It swallows all files except the typical "film" files such as DPX etc... All camera RAW files plus 10.000 others formats are supported by SpeedGrade XR. If you need to work on DPX you have to purchase SpeedGrade DI. Hardly needed in a Red workflow.

Hans

[Hans von Sonntag]

funny how this thread got winded out, based on calibration monitors.

Well all the various software announced at NAB are now available including Storm. The most talked about grading tool in the industry today is Speedgrade DI. I have personally never seen it in action, so I cant chime in. But from the above thread Baselight seemed to be the tool to buy.

I'm an SpeedGrade user since its early days. I love it for many reasons. It is focused on grading (of course) and 3D/stereo finishing. Concerning the latter one it's probably leading the lot.

IMHO, Storm is many things but not a grading software, at least in its current state.

Comparing Filmlight's Baselight with software only products such as Color, SpeedGrade, Resolve on the Mac or Scratch is like comparing apples and oranges. And BTW, if RT is not an objective Smoke is very good at colour timing as well plus much, much more (love it).

Hans

[M Most]

Comparing Filmlight's Baselight with software only products such as Color, SpeedGrade, Resolve on the Mac or Scratch is like comparing apples and oranges. And BTW, if RT is not an objective Smoke is very good at colour timing as well plus much, much more (love it).


I agree.

And I agree.

[Nook Kim]

Just had a lengthy discussion with a representavie from Iridas dealer in my county. To say the least, it was a very pleasing discussion as I've been thinking about Iridas products for years.

FYI, I'm a long time Color user mainly grading music videos and TVC's. Although dealin with R3D files wasn't very pleasant from time to time
(ie. delayed updates, etc), as a grading tool, and only for that purpose,
I'm very fond of it.

As my needs in DI has been growing as my business grows, I had more
options I needed, but I don't want to break my bank for it. And from
the discussion I had with Iridas just conformed that it will cover
most of my needs that Color is not able to.

As this was "Irida vs. Color", thread, here's what I'd get with Speed
Grade XR:

- Audio Import
- Image Sequence Render other than just DPX
- Alpha Channel Support
- Various RAW Import other than R3D's
- 3D Grading

It's only a few pointers I listed, but these features will make some
"night-and-day" difference as I work.


If you need to work on DPX you have to purchase SpeedGrade DI.

I was told that there was a work around with that, too. I could Convert DPX sequences to Cineform prior to import. So I'm considering getting the XR first
and do the upgrade when my needs for DPX grows enough.

I'm going to demo a unit in January, so I will be able to update here with deeper impression.

Best,

[jake blackstone]

Comparing Filmlight's Baselight with software only products such as Color, SpeedGrade, Resolve on the Mac or Scratch is like comparing apples and oranges.
Hans

I hate to be a stickler for facts, but any modern grading solution, with an exception of Pablo, can be installed on a standard hardware with standard OS. Yes, even Baselight. It runs on it's own proprietary version of Linux- FLOS, but the hardware is standard. It also runs on OSX. Its not that widespread or well known, but there is at least one installation in Moscow, that uses it's own built hardware, that runs Baselight, for which they just pay the license fee.
Same goes for FilmMaster (XP32 and Win7) and Lustre (XP32 and Linux). So, in a way, you do compare apples to apples. May be some apples are just a bit more expensive and delicious, than others:-)

[Nook Kim]

So Jake.. What is more delicious about Baselight comparing to Speedgrade?
I'm just very curious as most of my competitors use Baselight, and I haven't
touched or even seen that thing.

[jake blackstone]

So Jake.. What is more delicious about Baselight comparing to Speedgrade?
I'm just very curious as most of my competitors use Baselight, and I haven't
touched or even seen that thing.

That wasn't my point to compare one system to another. Just trying to keep the record straight.
But, if you curious about the competition, check these new features out:
http://www.filmlight.ltd.uk/pdf/datasheets/FL-BL-DS-0387-4.2NewFeatures.pdf.
As for an existing features, beside an incredible Blackboard control surface (but that is purely hardware) you have multiple playheads, film or brightness/contrast grading, unlimited grading layers with unlimited tracking on each layer, each grading layer is capable of multiple color and effects modifiers, limited compositing, multiple video layers, an ability visually to preview applied multiple looks, unlimited undo, D-Keyer, where you can select non contiguous colors, ability to resort timeline by Record TC, OFX plugin support, visual representation of applied layers in the timeline, ability to visually grade multiple shots in groups, apply grades to groups of shots, ability to trace color grades and reapply them over multiple projects (reconform), ability to render out Prores (extra Mac hardware required) etc.
These are just few things, that come to mind and are not necessarily sorted in the matter of importance. Said that, this list with few exceptions can be pretty much applied to a FilmMaster or a Lustre...
Speedgrade DI is capable system in it's own right, but in this comparison, it is akin to comparing apples to oranges. But so are the prices of these systems:-)

[Tai Wah Lim]

ability to render out Prores (extra Mac hardware required) etc.

Blake, is this a seamless integration of finishing a project in prores rendering through a Mac? Lim

[jake blackstone]

Blake, is this a seamless integration of finishing a project in prores rendering through a Mac? Lim

It's Jake, and yes, it is seamless. And as an added bonus, the gamma issue is sorted.

[shashbugu]

Does Iridas have an effects room like color does?
does Iridas have bezier curves to draw masks like in Color's geometry room?
is versioning in Iridas as simple as graded layers in Apple color?
Does Iridas have a nodal system to join several clips to one look?

[Charles Angus]

Sounds like you should be getting a demonstration license from Iridas...

[Hans von Sonntag]

Does Iridas have an effects room like color does?
does Iridas have bezier curves to draw masks like in Color's geometry room?
is versioning in Iridas as simple as graded layers in Apple color?
Does Iridas have a nodal system to join several clips to one look?

Iridas SpeedGrade is different to Color. It's engineered around an RT-colour manipulation engine that leverages the shaders build in in Nvidia Quadro graphics boards. On the contrary to the usual NLEs, SpeedGrade never creates renderfiles but visuals all work "virtually" with the help of the graphics board on the monitor. If you have a fast enough storage, a RedRocket or powerful CPUs and a Nvidia quadro card such as the 5800fx you can grade while your are playing back Red footage in RT. To answer you questions:

- You don't have a "room" concept. Instead you have a very handy GUI with fast accessible tools.

- SpeedGrade is not node but layer-based. You can stack infinite colour correction layers.

- SpeedGrade has a Custom Shader menu which is similar to Color's effects room.

- SpeedGrade has all secondaries you are used to. Masks (beziers), chroma key, etc...

- You can import more than one video layer.

- SpeedGrade has sophisticated tools for stereoscopic 3D work.

- SpeedGrade swallows any codec that is installed on your system.

- And since it's a cross-platform application you can grade on a PC workstation leveraging a Nvidia SDI board and then render to ProRes on a Mac using several MetaRender nodes. ProRes4444 is NOT gamma shifting. ProRes422 is shifting but there are LUTs inside SpeedGrade available that correct that very well when a FCP workflow is desired.

The market of grading applications has never been as big and diverse. Each of the applications in this market have their virtues. Some are cheap (Resolve on the Mac) or virtually free (Color), some are very good at special skills such as conform (Scratch) or stereo 3D (SpeedGrade). Some are expensive (Baselight, Lustre, Filmmaster, Pablo) but very economical in certain markets.

Hans

[shashbugu]

Iridas SpeedGrade is different to Color. It's engineered around an RT-colour manipulation engine that leverages the shaders build in in Nvidia Quadro graphics boards. On the contrary to the usual NLEs, SpeedGrade never creates renderfiles but visuals all work "virtually" with the help of the graphics board on the monitor. If you have a fast enough storage, a RedRocket or powerful CPUs and a Nvidia quadro card such as the 5800fx you can grade while your are playing back Red footage in RT. To answer you questions:

- You don't have a "room" concept. Instead you have a very handy GUI with fast accessible tools.

- SpeedGrade is not node but layer-based. You can stack infinite colour correction layers.

- SpeedGrade has a Custom Shader menu which is similar to Color's effects room.

- SpeedGrade has all secondaries you are used to. Masks (beziers), chroma key, etc...

- You can import more than one video layer.

- SpeedGrade has sophisticated tools for stereoscopic 3D work.

- SpeedGrade swallows any codec that is installed on your system.

- And since it's a cross-platform application you can grade on a PC workstation leveraging a Nvidia SDI board and then render to ProRes on a Mac using several MetaRender nodes. ProRes4444 is NOT gamma shifting. ProRes422 is shifting but there are LUTs inside SpeedGrade available that correct that very well when a FCP workflow is desired.

The market of grading applications has never been as big and diverse. Each of the applications in this market have their virtues. Some are cheap (Resolve on the Mac) or virtually free (Color), some are very good at special skills such as conform (Scratch) or stereo 3D (SpeedGrade). Some are expensive (Baselight, Lustre, Filmmaster, Pablo) but very economical in certain markets.

Hans

As usual thanks for the info Hans. We should be getting a Speedgrade demo license this week.

[Sven Seynaeve]

Does anybody know exactly what Lustre can and can't do compared to SG and Baselight and such...

I've been giving a nice offer lately for the bundle Flame, Smoke and Lustre in a package.

Would you need anything else if you have this on 1 workstation?

[Hans von Sonntag]

Does anybody know exactly what Lustre can and can't do compared to SG and Baselight and such...

I've been giving a nice offer lately for the bundle Flame, Smoke and Lustre in a package.

Would you need anything else if you have this on 1 workstation?

This bundle is called Flame Premium. It has been released with the 2011 ext.1.

You get a Flame system and additional a Smoke Advanced license and a Lustre license. You may be able to run all three software packages on the Flame workstation but at least for Lustre this does make hardly any sense.

Like all other high-end grading systems Luster takes advantage of dedicated hardware, eg. controller, etc...

This bundle is aimed at post houses that are already Flame based but haven't purchased a Smoke yet and may have the need of a big-iron DI suite. Then such a bundle makes sense. It's also meant as an incentive to invest in a complete Discreet/Autodesk workflow pipeline (Smoke - editing, finishing, Flame - compositing, Lustre - grading). But apart from the Flame workstation and the framestore you have to invest in 2 more Linux workstations and tons of hardware.

It's surely not meant for someone who is considering Iridas SpeedGrade as an upgrade/alternative to Apple Color.

I haven't worked with Lustre yet. But I know Autodesk's colour tools available in Flame and Smoke very well. If Autodesk is using similar tool in Lustre you will be able to manipulate colour in all imaginable ways.



Hans

[Hans von Sonntag]

As usual thanks for the info Hans. We should be getting a Speedgrade demo license this week.

Let me know what you think of it.

Hans

[shashbugu]

Let me know what you think of it.

Hans

I'll surely let you know.