RED Price

[araujofh]

Hello folks,

Will the price of the Red camera be likely to change?
I dont remember where I read it, but I know there was someone that mentioned in a thread.
Should I make my reservation now, or leave it for a later time?
I am not going to use it so soon, so I want to get it around September/October.

Thanks in advance,

Fidel.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

if you put in a reservation now, you'll be lucky to get it by september/october. At least that's my understanding of the release and production timing thus far... Of course, like everything else (and possibly the price too), it is subject to change. ...count on it.

[Emanuel A.]

Tó, welcome! (Bem-vindo!)

Glad to hear news from you! Yes, there will be a fair possibility concerning a potential increase of the price. Who knows? I second the wise Jeff's words.

1 Abraço,
Emanuel

[Kristin Stewart]

That's one of the biggest concerns with the Red system: there are a lot of uncertain things (date availability, full system price, lens options, ...) And as Jim seems to be very marketing-wise (for instance the stickers thing, the reservation thing, the hype thing), I suppose they won't keep the price constant. Probably an increase, unless there are other competitors. Don't forget you'll have to double at least the $17,500 price to be able to shoot something pro (lenses, lighting package, mics, editing workstation, etc...)

Kristin

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Don't forget you'll have to double at least the $17,500 price to be able to shoot something pro (lenses, lighting package, mics, editing workstation, etc...)

Absolutely. Hopefully everyone with a reservation # is aware of that. I'm hovering between $40K and $50K on my guesstimation of my complete RED system and I'm planning on using Nikkor lenses I already own to start out with. A new editing workstation or two and additional drive storage / RAID nodes really shoot the price up. I need new mics, some more lighting equipment and I'm going to do Chromatte fabric or something to construct a decent green screen.

[Ignas K]

Don't forget you'll have to double at least the $17,500 price to be able to shoot something pro (lenses, lighting package, mics, editing workstation, etc...


Absolutely. Hopefully everyone with a reservation # is aware of that. I'm hovering between $40K and $50K..

I´m aware of additional cost, but I will try to keep all costs as down as possible, [ lights I´ll rent, mics and workstation I already have, not brand new but it´ll have to do. ] I think it is possible to have bone-slim package with under 20k as 40k for me is not an option.

[Roberto B]

kristin, welcome girl!.. i didn't know you from DVXuser..

me likes gals.. especially smart ones.. you're a fresh nouvelle for these posts.. :rolleyes:

me hates hecklers.. :mad: but don't like asskissers either.. and here you can find a lot who are saying that are always happy with any food brought at our table.. :p whatever the food smells.. ;)


That's one of the biggest concerns with the Red system: there are a lot of uncertain things (date availability, full system price, lens options, ...) And as Jim seems to be very marketing-wise (for instance the stickers thing, the reservation thing, the hype thing), I suppose they won't keep the price constant. Probably an increase, unless there are other competitors. Don't forget you'll have to double at least the $17,500 price to be able to shoot something pro (lenses, lighting package, mics, editing workstation, etc...)

Kristin

[Rob Lohman]

If you can afford to buy the camera why not put down a reservation? You can always cancel it if things change in a way you don't like etc. But with a reservation you have a guaranteed price and you'll have a clearer picture when you'll get the camera (you'll see when people before you get theirs).

[Ben Feuer]

I think 20k for an operational RED-ONE package is pushing it VERY hard. We're not in DV-land anymore, people. The cost of a usable tripod alone puts you over the edge. Then there's $1k for RED-DRIVE, some nauseating sum for the lenses (Cine 10k, Nikkor 3k)...you get the general picture.

[Dominic Jones]

This is a question of whether you're a first-time camera buyer or not - it's meaningless to talk about tripods, mics, lights etc unless we're talking about building a complete shooting package from scratch, which I doubt many are with a camera of this quality and price point (excellent value though it is, you could still get 3 or 4 Z1's, for instance, for the same price).

I'm looking at about $21k, I think - of course that depends a little on exact prices, but we've already got a rod system, follow focus, mattebox, shoulder mount, enough lights for a basic shoot, tripod, mics, mixer, and a very good set of Nikkor primes...

So the kit for me becomes:
Red One body - $17.5k
2x RedDrive digital mags - $2k
Additional Nikon F mount - $??, but I'd guess around $200-300, maybe a little more
A couple of spare batteries - again $??, but let's say no more than $500
and I think I'll probably add a top-mountable handle - what, $150 or so at a guestimate?

That lot adds up to about $20,500, so with a little breathing room and some shipping, I think I'm fairly safe on $21k...

So like I say, unless you've not got *any* camera kit, a basic rig could be done quite cheaply, imo - maybe $23k if you've got no lenses, and are happy to use SLR glass when you've not got the budget to hire PL mount lenses for a given project.

Of course, it depends what your criteria are and what you want to do with it...

[araujofh]

Hello guys,

Thanks for all the inputs. I guess I will follow Rob's advice and make a reservation.

Thank you all once again.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Yeah, I'm with Dominic on this one... But I also see where a lot of people are coming from with the higher budget estimates. My RED camera budget looks identical to Dominic's... Body, 2 * RED Drive, Batteries, Nikon mount. Although, don't forget to figure tax into all that budget - most of us in the world have to pay the tax sooner or later.

My budget is higher - as I have mentioned, but not because it needs to be. There's several things I want to also buy/build to go along with RED so I can try and make full use of its abilities.

[Dominic Jones]

Yeah, I'm with Dominic on this one...
That's nice to know Jeff! Have you got your res# yet?!


But I also see where a lot of people are coming from with the higher budget estimates.
Yup, if you've not got a working setup it'll be a lot more expensive, or of course there are those ordering RED lenses as well, and if you start to put cage's and gun's and all sorts of other odds-n-sods into the mix then you'll definitely be able to spend a whole lot, if you feel like it!...


Although, don't forget to figure tax into all that budget - most of us in the world have to pay the tax sooner or later.
VAT registered, baby, no problems here! When I take tax into account on it, I'll save 25% on my corporation tax... :)

[Emmanuel Cambier]

What about the EVF ?
Are you gonna skip it ?
This may ad-up an extra 1000$

Yours Emmanuel

[Jeff Kilgroe]

What about the EVF ?
Are you gonna skip it ?
This may ad-up an extra 1000$

Yours Emmanuel


EVF - I'm considering one. I haven't budgeted one in because I honestly don't know what price to expect. EVF units from Sony/Panasonic are $9K to $15K for their top of the line. The LCD that *should* come with RED One will show all the same information and if the EVF option is another few thousand $$, then I'll just make sure I have a good LCD hood. If in fact they offer good 720p (or similar) EVF for as little as $1K, then I'll buy it.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

That's nice to know Jeff! Have you got your res# yet?!


No... ?

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Stephen Williams]

VAT registered, baby, no problems here! When I take tax into account on it, I'll save 25% on my corporation tax... :)

Dominic,

Remember there is import duty in addition to VAT.

Stephen

[Zakaree Sandberg]

40k for an operational red? NO!
17.5 for body. comes with a flash drive. and body and lcd...
skip the lcd.. lower the cost for an evf..
ur still looking at 20-21k

own your own nikkon lens set.. if not.. buy a used set from a used camera store = 1000
now your at 22k

lighting? most pro dps rent lighting so thats pointless

sound? thats what a sound guy is for

if you want higher quality lenses go rent. i found a place that rents zeiss superspeeds for 75 a day.

theres no reason to build up your camera because you think thats what you need to do. once the money starts rolling in then go ahead and buy the larger storage, batteries, cage, new lenses.. whatever.. putting another 20k on top of the red price is not nessesary

[Stephen Williams]

40k for an operational red? NO!
17.5 for body. comes with a flash drive. and body and lcd...
skip the lcd.. lower the cost for an evf..
ur still looking at 20-21k

own your own nikkon lens set.. if not.. buy a used set from a used camera store = 1000
now your at 22k

lighting? most pro dps rent lighting so thats pointless

sound? thats what a sound guy is for

if you want higher quality lenses go rent. i found a place that rents zeiss superspeeds for 75 a day.

theres no reason to build up your camera because you think thats what you need to do. once the money starts rolling in then go ahead and buy the larger storage, batteries, cage, new lenses.. whatever.. putting another 20k on top of the red price is not nessesary


Hi,

Follow focus, matte box, fluid head & extra batteries could easily add $10-15,000.
If you really want lenses to get the best out of your 4K camera you should budget $100,000 plus, thats why many people rent.

Stephen

[Dominic Jones]

Dominic,

Remember there is import duty in addition to VAT.

Stephen
Yes I know, thanks Stephen - that one you've just gotta take on the chin, but it's usually very low in relation to the VAT, so you get the majority (in my experience around 75%) back...

There's all the different brackets for import duty though, so it's always a bit of a lottery how it gets classified. I've bought camera equipment and accessories, but not an actual camera, from the states - so maybe I'm in for more of a shock with a camera - do you happen to have any idea if the import duty is significantly higher for cameras than for accessories?

[Stephen Williams]

Yes I know, thanks Stephen - that one you've just gotta take on the chin, but it's usually very low in relation to the VAT, so you get the majority (in my experience around 75%) back...

There's all the different brackets for import duty though, so it's always a bit of a lottery how it gets classified. I've bought camera equipment and accessories, but not an actual camera, from the states - so maybe I'm in for more of a shock with a camera - do you happen to have any idea if the import duty is significantly higher for cameras than for accessories?

Hi Domonic,

It's over 12 years since I lived in the U.K.,back then I remember paying between 4 to 8%. I would check with customs & excise what the code is, I know for a 35mm cinema film camera its 9007.1900.
In Switzerland import duty is based on weight!

Be aware there is a tax on broadcast quality video cameras made outside the EU of 40%! Hopefully this tax does not apply to Red .

Stephen

[Dominic Jones]

Be aware there is a tax on broadcast quality video cameras made outside the EU of 40%! Hopefully this tax does not apply to Red.
Wow! Well, it's a good job this is a digital cinema camera then, isn't it?!

Thanks for the heads-up and advice Stephen...
Dom.

EDIT: Ha ha, I see you've edited your post - yes, let's hope not indeed!!

[Appleton]

it might be the case that some are underestimating the cost vs. results of a total RED package.

either way, Rob is right ; there'lll be plenty of people to test the waters before you, so a reservation (refundable) is a great option if you think you can afford the cam as is ...

in the mean time; when the cam ships, we'll swim around and let you know the currents. just in case the price is ready to take a rocket ride after the rez period is over -> reserve if you got the dough.

[mezmo]

Welcome to the Camera Kit Club Guys,
Been doing this with film gear for ever. Hope I can help.
If your using the Red camera professionally (I think most people are)
the camera body usually represents 40-50% of the total kit price.
Things like Lenses, Accessories, Support and Insurance make up
the other 50%.
So a Red kit would come in at around the US$40K mark.
The accountancy rule for this type of electronic plant is to return
2% per day on a rental basis = US$800 per day or $1600-$2400
per week depending on producer negotiations.
In addition the 2% covers repairs, upgrades and the unclaimable depreciation of the kit, (being replaced by a bigger better widget).
Also it covers additional overheads like bank interest and the running
of a secure reliable vehicle for the transport and storage of the kit.

50 days hire covers the initial cost of the kit but as a rule you need
another 50 days to make a PROFIT and cover the cost of the next
big thing.
So your looking at 4-5 feature films, 2-3 episodic TV series, 100 music
vids or 100 commercials over the life of the camera.
_______________________________________
Good luck and happy shootin. Mezmo

[Jason Francois]

Nobody said RED was going to be cheap, but it will be a bargain if it does 90% of what it's supposed to. I wasn't willing to take the chance to not have my reservation in.

Nobody knows for sure, but I can imagine a day when the RED will be a bit more expensive. Now, maybe manufacturing costs will actually come down, but there seems to be a lot of things going into making this camera and it can't be cheap.

Get on the list and if you don't like what you see, get your money back.

[Alex Fostvedt]

Welcome to the Camera Kit Club Guys,
Been doing this with film gear for ever. Hope I can help.
If your using the Red camera professionally (I think most people are)
the camera body usually represents 40-50% of the total kit price.
Things like Lenses, Accessories, Support and Insurance make up
the other 50%.
So a Red kit would come in at around the US$40K mark.
The accountancy rule for this type of electronic plant is to return
2% per day on a rental basis = US$800 per day or $1600-$2400
per week depending on producer negotiations.
In addition the 2% covers repairs, upgrades and the unclaimable depreciation of the kit, (being replaced by a bigger better widget).
Also it covers additional overheads like bank interest and the running
of a secure reliable vehicle for the transport and storage of the kit.

50 days hire covers the initial cost of the kit but as a rule you need
another 50 days to make a PROFIT and cover the cost of the next
big thing.
So your looking at 4-5 feature films, 2-3 episodic TV series, 100 music
vids or 100 commercials over the life of the camera.
_______________________________________
Good luck and happy shootin. Mezmo

Great post mezmo, the question of kit rental has been going around for awhile. Thanks for the info! Alex

[Roberto B]

reel stephen,

if i didn't see that last post of yours.. i'd ask.. who are you, man?.. the prophet killjoy.. or dr. $poil$port?..

:)

[Martin Drew]

Be aware there is a tax on broadcast quality video cameras made outside the EU of 40%! Hopefully this tax does not apply to Red .

Now I am just going from distant memory but I seem to recall that only applied to 3 chip broadcast cameras.

Martin

[Dominic Jones]

Again, let's hope so - I think it's a fairly easy "sell" to the Customs and Excise guys that this is clearly *not* a broadcast camera....

I guess we'll see in due time!

[Dominic Jones]

Apart from anything else, why would you buy a broadcast camera from the states - it'll be a 60Hz model, useless for PAL/50iHDTV shooting!

[Martin Drew]

The 40% anti-dumping levy applies only to certain broadcast cameras from Japan.

Martin

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Hi,

Follow focus, matte box, fluid head & extra batteries could easily add $10-15,000.
If you really want lenses to get the best out of your 4K camera you should budget $100,000 plus, thats why many people rent.

Stephen

if your not smart about it and buy the most expensive of each.. then ya

i have a mattebox/follow focus and tripod already so im in the clear..

but if i didnt.. you can still buy a nice multiple stage mattebox for under 1200
a followfocus for under 1200 (even modify a redrock or indifocus) mine works great.. no backlash at all. and then u can buy a decent fluid head for 800.. that doesnt add up to 10-15 grand. besides.. were talking about shooting right out of the box. you dont need a mattebox and you dont need a ff or even a fluid head (shoot handheld).. you will in time need these things but they are all rentable per shoot.

[Gordon Prince]

The 40% anti-dumping levy applies only to certain broadcast cameras from Japan.

Martin

Thank you.


reel stephen,

if i didn't see that last post of yours.. i'd ask.. who are you, man?.. the prophet killjoy.. or dr. $poil$port?..

:)LMAO

[Stephen Williams]

The 40% anti-dumping levy applies only to certain broadcast cameras from Japan.

Martin

Hi Martin,

I know it was intended to help Phillips at the time, thats why broadcast cameras are so much more expensive than the industrial version.

Stephen

[Stephen Williams]

if your not smart about it and buy the most expensive of each.. then ya

i have a mattebox/follow focus and tripod already so im in the clear..

but if i didnt.. you can still buy a nice multiple stage mattebox for under 1200
a followfocus for under 1200 (even modify a redrock or indifocus) mine works great.. no backlash at all. and then u can buy a decent fluid head for 800.. that doesnt add up to 10-15 grand. besides.. were talking about shooting right out of the box. you dont need a mattebox and you dont need a ff or even a fluid head (shoot handheld).. you will in time need these things but they are all rentable per shoot.

Hi,

If you are planning to use one of the best digital cameras ever made, is skimping on lenses etc really such a good idea?

There is a reason that Arri Matte boxes & follow focus units cost so much, you will only ever cry once!

Stephen

[Roberto B]

hi reel stephen..

hmmmm.. you didn't comment our post.. http://clicksmilies.com/s1106/traurig/sad-smiley-047.gif






edit

take that:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=350

and leave those people there at cinematography.com and .net forums.. elitist and sick people.. http://clicksmilies.com/s1106/wuerg/vomit-smiley-013.gif

not people who love the cinema and the real artmakers but their own selfish interests.. selfish makers.. not properly you.. :)

[Daniel Reichenbach]

Yes, true, ARRI is heavy duty, with it, never ever you need gaffertape to fix a weaky kind of mattebox that makes you angry because in your wideangle shot you see a ugly black shadow destroing your incredible composed picture. Ok, if I have the occasion I will gratefully test a lowcost one. Then it is true: ARRI is dammed expensive but on the other hand, ARRI stuff will last forever.

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

Sorry, I have been driving for over 5 hours today! I am behind on posting. One thing to remember if you buy a second hand Arri toy, in 5 years time you will sell it for what you paid, low cost of ownership!

FWIW had lunch with a low serial no Red reservation holder!

Stephen


hi reel stephen..

hmmmm.. you didn't comment our post.. http://clicksmilies.com/s1106/traurig/sad-smiley-047.gif






edit

take that:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=350

and leave those people there at cinematography.com and .net forums.. elitist and sick people.. http://clicksmilies.com/s1106/wuerg/vomit-smiley-013.gif

not people who love the cinema and the real artmakers but their own selfish interests.. selfish makers.. not properly you.. :)

[Daniel Reichenbach]

Oh Stephen and when you will have lunch with me????????

[Stephen Williams]

Oh Stephen and when you will have lunch with me????????

Hi Daniel,

Thanks for lunch! can't wait for the first Red arrive in Switzerland!

Bets wishes,

Stephen

[Roberto B]

yeah yeah.. other swiss here.. nice red number yours.. but when you're buying this expensive gear you're paying the expectations they have on the profitable hollywood and related business.. genre commercials etc..

and if you ain't taking there any profit.. you're sharing with the supplier what you won't have from anywhere..


Yes, true, ARRI is heavy duty, with it, never ever you need gaffertape to fix a weaky kind of mattebox that makes you angry because in your wideangle shot you see a ugly black shadow destroing your incredible composed picture. Ok, if I have the occasion I will gratefully test a lowcost one. Then it is true: ARRI is dammed expensive but on the other hand, ARRI stuff will last forever.

[Stephen Williams]

yeah yeah.. other swiss here.. nice red number yours.. but when you're buying this expensive gear you're paying the expectations they have on the profitable hollywood and related business.. genre commercials etc..

and if you ain't taking there any profit.. you're sharing with the supplier what you won't have from anywhere..

Hi,

I think you will find that Arri has not made vast profits over the years, its a tough business. Remember most of the equipment they have ever made is still working today!

Stephen

[Martin Drew]

I know it was intended to help Phillips at the time, thats why broadcast cameras are so much more expensive than the industrial version.

Interestingly I noticed that Grass Valley/Thompson were kicking off about it again last year, I think it is up for renewal.

M

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Hi,

If you are planning to use one of the best digital cameras ever made, is skimping on lenses etc really such a good idea?

There is a reason that Arri Matte boxes & follow focus units cost so much, you will only ever cry once!

Stephen

absolutly dont skimp on lenses.. but what im saying is you dont need to own the lenses to be able to have a fully functioning camera.. rent lenses..
matteboxes really dont matter.. if they hold filters.. block out light they will work. followfocus i agree.. unless you know how to mod a 500 ff like the micro then you should get a 1200+ ff.. but my point was even if you did buy the best matte box and best ff your still under 3000!.. but yah, once you tack on some premo primes and zooms then you will be spending some dime.. but even if i had the money for a set of superspeeds i would rather rent per paid shoot. otherwise.. for my own personal work or even some commercial work i think nikons would be fantastic.

[Roberto B]

Hi,

I think you will find that Arri has not made vast profits over the years, its a tough business. Remember most of the equipment they have ever made is still working today!

Stephen

the manufacturers just want a part of the cake.. for them there's no difference between hollywood or indy..

should the indy pay the hollywood bill from their own box office expectations when ours (box office) can not even exist?..

[Finner]

[QUOTE=zakaree;6720]but my point was even if you did buy the best matte box and best ff your still under 3000!./QUOTE]


If you know where I can buy an ARRI ff-4 and an ARRI 4 stage 6x6 swing out matte box for under $3,000 combined I will take 50 of them.