Upgrade Modules only for Epic-X? Why? [Archive]

Mark B.

07-30-2009, 10:11 AM

Why is it that upgrading to the Epic-X will get us the CF/Battery/IO modules, but not if we upgrade to one of the other Epic cameras?

Red seems to want us to buy the cheaper camera. But why?

The most obvious hypothesis is that Red wants people to buy the EpicX, and then also buy the FF35. But people who can afford to go that route would probably go that route regardless of the free modules. Their demographic has money or constant camera work, and they simply want the latest and greatest camera whatever the cost. The rest of us can only afford to purchase one camera, one time, rather than buying and selling and buying again (resale on Epic-X will incur a financial hit for most).

Is Red hoping that we'll skip the EpicX and go straight to FF35, so that they don't have to pay out the extra modules to as many people? That would seem very unlikely, but not outside the realm of possibilities.

I hope Red will improve their upgrade policy, to give the free modules to any of the Epic upgrades, not just Epic-X.

Raul Gonzo

07-30-2009, 10:20 AM

The modules given with Epic X is a gift... Most likely RED went with the Epic X because that will be the first Epic out. If you are in a financial situation where you can buy a Red and then afford to do the upgrade, then most likely you could sell your Epic X and then pay the difference to buy an Epic FF35 and then use the same modules.
Obviously everyone is different, but I would think this can apply to most people...

Meryem Ersoz

07-30-2009, 10:53 AM

Red seems to want us to buy the cheaper camera. But why?

You need to shift your perception, that is all. They don't want you to buy a cheaper camera, they want their RED ONE customers to be able to have a reasonable upgrade path, without having to re-purchase the basic devices that will go into a working EPIC. Beyond that reasonable upgrade path, you will have to pay for all the goodies. Innovation has a cost.

Joseph S.

07-30-2009, 12:55 PM

99% of any other companies don't let you exchange what you bought, used, used, and used again, and then let you get FULL credit, for an almost unlimited time to an upgraded future product. You buy a 2007 car. Go back to them in 2010 and they give you full credit on it for a new model. Unheard of.

I'm not being a smart-ass, just saying :)

Andrew Walker

07-30-2009, 01:46 PM

Personally I would rather see Red skip Epic-X and just go straight for the FF35. But that's just me...or maybe not. I don't mind waiting the extra time for the FF35 Epic. I just see the advantages of the FF35 Monstro sensor to far out weigh the Mysterium-X sensor, higher dynamic range and higher resolution. Not to mention higher fps, which I'm really looking forward to. Plus if people just want to shoot 5K with their RPPs they can with just a change in the project menu. The FF35 even minus the extra modules seems like a way better buy as it can be both a 4K, 5K and 6K DSMC camera.

I also think its going to be a little hard to sell the 5K Epic brain when the 6K FF35 Epic is out because once everyone sees how badass it is to shoot in FF35 6K they are going to want that. Not to mention producers, directors and stock footage houses. FF35 is going to be the future.

Dominic Jones

07-31-2009, 06:11 AM

Whilst I would also prefer to get an Epic FF35 with all the free doo-dads, that's not really playing fair.

Here's the thing:

The reason why the deal applies to the Epic-X only is that it is, in essence, a replacement for the Red One body in DSMC form-factor - same (pretty much) size sensor, similar res, and a fully working body with control, CF card module, etc. Essentially it's a thanks to those who bought into the R1 system, and a delivery on their promise of not allowing the kit to become obsolete. It's also pretty much unprecedented as far as I know...

As regards selling Epic-X brains, I'm not so sure they will be difficult to shift - Andrew, you're thinking only from the perspective of someone buying into the system and going for the best option available. But what DSMC offers is modularity and therefore modular upgrading... So, what about all of the 2/3" (and S35, for that matter) Scarlet users out there, who might very well be tempted to buy a cheaper second-hand Epic brain, keep all their existing aks and suddenly have an Epic rig for cheap?

I guess we'll see, but I would be moderately surprised if it was difficult to shift an Epic-X brain 12 months after their release...

One thing's for sure - it's gonna be a gamble, this one, either way!!
Dom.

Jeff Brown

07-31-2009, 07:09 AM

The other thing to factor in is timescale.

Certainly the Epic FF35 will be better in terms of Dynamic range/sensor size etc but you'll be waiting another year for it.

For those who work day in day out with cameras making money on paying jobs that's a long time. I'll be going Epic X and it will pay for itself and then some by the time I buy a FF35 brain.

The old adage about technology applies. If you need it now buy it now - if you don't dont. There will always be something better a year from now.

Jeff Brown

Dominic Jones

07-31-2009, 07:20 AM

Andrew Walker

07-31-2009, 09:07 AM

I'm not convinced the Epic FF35 will be a year behind the Epic-X, personally. My money's on more like 6 months...

But still, your point stands - for me, given that I'm assuming R1 rental prices will take a moderately hefty dive on release of the Epic-X and that my kit goes out pretty regularly, I think the gamble that the Epic-X will make enough money to cover the loss I make selling it on 6 months down the line in that time will just about pay off - that is also assuming that Andrew is wrong about the re-sale price of an Epic-X brain post-FF35 release, of course.

Like I say, it's a gamble either way...
Dom.

Oh, I could very well be wrong about the whole Epic-X thing. It might not be hard to sell after the FF35 Epic comes out. But with all the added benefits that the FF35 Epic seems to offer it might be a little tough. We'll just have to see.

Of course I'm speaking more as a shooter than a camera supplier. So I want the best possible camera to fit my shooting and for me that would be the FF35 Epic.

Dominic Jones

07-31-2009, 09:21 AM

Greg M

07-31-2009, 10:26 AM

I hope Red will improve their upgrade policy, to give the free modules to any of the Epic upgrades, not just Epic-X.

Are you serious?
Red is offering us 100% trade-in on our Red One body, which most of us have been earning a living with...this is unheard of in the industry. Expecting more is just unreasonable.

If you are not happy w/ the trade-in, sell your Red and use the cash to buy what you want.

Andrew Walker

07-31-2009, 11:10 AM

Absolutely agree Andrew, and I'm in very much the same boat as you - there's no doubt that I'll get the FF35, the question is whether to jump for the Epic-X in the meantime.

...And I could very well be wrong about resale value too! That's the tough bit - but realistically, with, say, 6-9 months of usage out of the X, plus the additional free modules into the bargain, I think it's looking like a good bet to go FF via the X...

Might yet change my mind again, though! :)

Cheers,
Dom.

Well the real question is how much are the modules going to be. If they are worth quite a bit then I will do the Epic-X upgrade as well. Right now we are all playing the wait and see game.

It would be nice of Red to release prices for all the Epic/Scarlet accessories to give us all a better idea of which path is ideal for the individual.

Shawn Nelson

07-31-2009, 11:17 AM

Well the real question is how much are the modules going to be. If they are worth quite a bit then I will do the Epic-X upgrade as well. Right now we are all playing the wait and see game.

It would be nice of Red to release prices for all the Epic/Scarlet accessories to give us all a better idea of which path is ideal for the individual.

Interestingly we are in the biggest vacuum of information since before the first Red NAB. There hasn't been an update since early December 08! Dang, that's nearly 8 months now. Once the fog lifts, who knows what situation we'll all be in? I'm still hoping for a minimum of 60 days heads up to get financing in order, given that I just bled well for the RPPs

Eric Ulbrich

07-31-2009, 11:27 AM

Andrew is right, its all about module pricing. Depending on how much they cost it will change how I buy. I really want to go FF 35 specifically for the fact that Anamorphic will look insane on it, but at the same time I dont want to spend another 30-35 thousand for new accessories and stuff. Combine that with my delivery date being really high 6350 SN. We shall see, it might just be more advantageous for me to wait for the FF 35

Häakon

07-31-2009, 12:01 PM

I just see the advantages of the FF35 Monstro sensor to far out weigh the Mysterium-X sensor, higher dynamic range and higher resolution.
When shooting with s35 lenses, the FF35 camera offers higher dynamic range and lower resolution.

Andrew Walker

07-31-2009, 12:43 PM

When shooting with s35 lenses, the FF35 camera offers higher dynamic range and lower resolution.

I remember what the specs said but the proof will be in the pudding. I'm sure once the cameras or sensors come out we will get to see tests. Personally I can live with lower resolution at S35 as I plan to shoot FF35 primarily. But it would be nice to see no noticeable difference between the two sensors while shooting in S35...except in dynamic range of course.

Jannard

07-31-2009, 02:52 PM

EPIC-X is only for RED ONE owners. More info when we have a clear path and the ASIC is fully tested and in production. Speculation is dangerous.

Jim

Andy Jarosz

07-31-2009, 04:48 PM

Jim...from all the hype, that has to be one flippin' epic IC. You're making me want to take my camera apart more then use it :).

Jannard

07-31-2009, 05:20 PM

I know you didn't mean it in a bad way... but I am kinda over the "hype" word. If including our customers in the process and being open about what we are doing is called hype, then I must not understand what the word means.

Jim

Mark B.

08-08-2009, 10:25 PM

Roberto B

08-09-2009, 12:24 AM

in international english hype can have both negative & positive senses.. no forget there's formal informal slang english not only in CA.. in americas.. british europe.. continental europe.. oceania.. asia.. africa

- the gang

Rick Darge

08-26-2009, 01:29 AM

Epic ff-35 + canon ff k-35 superspeeds

bring it on

Scott Crawley

08-26-2009, 02:00 AM

Why is it that upgrading to the Epic-X will get us the CF/Battery/IO modules, but not if we upgrade to one of the other Epic cameras?

I'd say it is because you bought a camera that was still in beta stages of development. The Epic X is the final evolution of the product... the gold release, if you will. Red was simply allowing you to get your hands on the product early to your mutual benefit because the beta was so very functional, but they knew it would take quite a while to polish. That is how I read it, anyway.

Stephen Pruitt

08-26-2009, 09:23 AM

Personally, I'd like to see more details about the RED One to Epic-X upgrade program as well as the date of shipping of the FF35.
For me, it might make more sense to just upgrade our One and then later take the plunge into the Monstro. It's all quite up in the air, of course, but more information on likely shipping dates would be amazing. We are starting to shoot our next film in almost exactly one year and I'd really like to shoot it using the latest and greatest technology RED has to offer.

Stephen

Steve Murray

08-26-2009, 10:00 AM

After shooting with my R1 for 14 months - I have zero complaints. In fact I've never been treated this good by any company - camera or otherwise.

But I must say it would be really great if we could choose the FF35 Epic and receive the X bonus items... really, really great.

Steven Caesare

08-27-2009, 07:13 AM

"Here's an inch."

"I'll take a mile."

Nelson Goforth

08-31-2009, 07:41 PM

One item I have not seen discussed is whether moving from an S35-sized sensor to the FF35 sensor will mean having to purchase (or rent) a whole new kind of lens. Will a DP be able to rent the set of Super Speeds they love?

Cine lenses are made for a smaller sensor/aperture (24.5mm wide or so) than are 35mm still lenses. Will most of the existing cine lenses cover the larger frame size of the FF35 (36mm)?

Nelson Goforth

08-31-2009, 07:52 PM

Answering my own question, in part.

I see that Matthew Duclos is putting together a database of image circles for a number of lenses. The discussion is here http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=33642

The database is at http://web.me.com/ducloslenses/DataRef/ImgCir.html

And the answer is: some of them, but not many, will be able to cover the 43.27mm image circle required by FF35 (I only listed the width above...but that hypotenuse will get you every time).

J. Eric Camp

09-02-2009, 07:54 AM

I find it absurd to complain about the upgrade options.

If one bought an Altima and then Nissan said, we will let you trade it back in for a full original retail price credit towards this years Altima, would one then complain than one could not get that Altima trade in towards a 370z?
Oh but with the comfort trim package from the Altima deal.

A company offers an unprecedented level of client appreciation and monetary consideration and people continue to complain.

Amazing.

I am not singling anyone out, just sharing my shock.

Jeff Kilgroe

09-02-2009, 08:43 AM

would one then complain than one could not get that Altima trade in towards a 370z?

You know they would...

And yes, I'm shocked that people are complaining. We've been given several very generous upgrade paths as a reward for being RED One owners. And yet it is never enough for some.

Shane Nassiri

09-04-2009, 09:30 PM

again (resale on Epic-X will incur a financial hit for most).

I highly doubt that. The Epic-X will have a collectors value attached to it, as it is only available to Red One owners. There will be people interested in picking it up even at full price. Plus considering that it will come with several hundred (several thousand?) dollars worth of modules, it'll definitely at least hold it's value, if not sell for more.

Dave Summers

09-06-2009, 10:19 PM

I gotta say too, that I'm 99% sure I'll be trading in my R1 for an Epic X asap!

The free modules are just way too good a deal to pass up. I think down the line, even if I sell the X brain at a loss, the $$$ I make with it for 6-12 months plus not having to buy the modules will more than justify the cost to upgrade:)

Jerrod Cordell

09-07-2009, 10:54 AM

You know they would...

And yes, I'm shocked that people are complaining. We've been given several very generous upgrade paths as a reward for being RED One owners. And yet it is never enough for some.

Exactly. I mean look at Ketch's post about Canon. RED could have easily made the Red One, then wait a year and come out with a Red Two that is pretty much a Red One with Build 16, then come out with a Red Three six months later that does 4.5K, then an Epic with 5K a few months later.

That's three different cameras in the same camera, and then a complete trade in value for Epic. You don't see Canon doing anything like this do you?

KETCH ROSSi

09-08-2009, 01:20 PM

Exactly. I mean look at Ketch's post about Canon. RED could have easily made the Red One, then wait a year and come out with a Red Two that is pretty much a Red One with Build 16, then come out with a Red Three six months later that does 4.5K, then an Epic with 5K a few months later.

That's three different cameras in the same camera, and then a complete trade in value for Epic. You don't see Canon doing anything like this do you?

Totally my point :)! This is why my money will well spent at the RED Store from now on,
an so the money of those I know that I can put some sense in to, which I believe it will be very easy to do.