I know I shouldn't be allowed to buy this camera, but I will

[Jack Wester]

I know nothing about film. I have no experience with either video or analogue film. So this will possibly upset someone, but I will get the Red One as my first camera. I think it'll be a great way for me to learn about the art of filmmaking. I know some will tell me that I should learn to crawl before I can walk. But that does not matter to me, because I'll get one anyway.

I'm a computer programmer and a painter, so at least I have some skills that could come handy???

What lenses will I need and why?

Thanks

Joachim "Jack" Wester

Stockholm, Sweden

[Shawn Nelson]

Jack, the Red One owes it's design more to digital SLR still cameras than it does any video camera on the market. I strongly recommen buying a Canon or Nikon DSLR and a few lenses and learn it like crazy. Learn about ISO, focal lengths, shutter speed, aperture, manually focusing and even just general composition.

[Sean]

I assume you have spare cash in your bank account. Then I say go for it.

But start with as little as possible. That's my advice. One 35 or 50mm Nikon lens. A decent tripod that can handle the weight and then some (because you'll grow your camera package with time). As you get to know more, you'll add stuff. If you decide to keep the camera, you'll get addicted and start scouring the internet for more and more expensive lenses. It's worse than being hooked on junk.

[Gregory Karydis]

Ha!
Good point Shawn.
I've owned Canon EOS 1D-SLRs for the past 7 years and after using up two shutter courtains (of the old EOS 1D) and about 2 million photos worth of trial and error I feel more than confident I can wrestle with my RED One when it gets here.
A good source would be to get the American Cinematographer Manual and also be a frequent visitor in this forum.

I admit the closest to shooting with a professional camera I've gotten to was with a Canon XL1 a few years ago and for the past 8 months I've owned a Sony A1.
I am learning new things every day.

[Craig Schober]

if you're going to get one anyway then who cares what we think. but i don't think anyone should be allowed to tell you if you can buy it or not. put it this way, i can think of a few pro filmmakers out there that i would sooner tell to not buy red or even the cheapest camcorder-hacks.

it sounds like you're already well acquainted with a pc or mac so you're almost half way there. when you consider (not just editing) how much a digital cinema camera relies on pc horsepower and interface to put out a finished film/video, you'll find that you're way ahead of some non-technical filmmakers. you can get a good understanding of the art of filmmaking by using a $200 camcorder and a pc but buying into red now is a great way to also get an understanding of the tech side.

[Eugene]

http://www.suzeorman.com/photolibrary/product_courage_cdcover.jpg

Whant to know if you can afford something? Call into the the Suze Orman show. You will be approved or denied. :tongue:

[Jack Wester]

Shawn,

Thanks for the advise. I already use a Nikon D2H for photography, though I'm not very good with it.

I'm a computer programmer by professon and I paint for a hobby. So I some things about compression, artifacts and aesthetics. I'm not impressed by the camcorders I've been demonstrated at the local store. As a programmer, I would not like to deal with heavy artifacts if I were to create a post production algorithm for some effect. Maybe I'm in deep water here, but I can't see how I as a programmer would differentiate between artifacts and image details. So my simple theory would be that images with less compression would be much better suitet, right?

[Jason Francois]

It's your life, do what makes you happy.

I have no skills (by traditional standards) to warrant owning this camera, but if all goes as planned I'm buying it anyway. Even if it sits on a shelf looking pretty (which it wont). Who, other than my wife, can tell me not to. :)

Enjoy your RED.

[Joe Aurili]

I'm a programmer by profession also, but I have had lots of amateur video camera experience. Over the last few year I have purchased progressively move expensive camcorders, and was never satisfied with the quality at all. I can not really afford this camera, but I feel like it would be a foolish move not to buy one :) I have a game project in the works that the camera would be perfect for, but I will need to do some renting or strike some deals to pay for the camera.

[Curran Giddens]

http://www.suzeorman.com/photolibrary/product_courage_cdcover.jpg

Whant to know if you can afford something? Call into the the Suze Orman show. You will be approved or denied. :tongue:

LOL! She would never approve of my situation.


Also, today is my 28th birthday and I'm living at my Mom's, I have no car, and I'm about to spend every penny I have on a Red setup (about $70k). Red will also be my first (I've only been on the post-production side of the biz). I've actually been waiting for about 5 years, but wasn't impressed with anything on the market. I started saving when I first heard about Red on HD for indies.

I say go for it! :clown2:

[Mike Prevette]

Wow, there are going to be a lot of 'hardly used' and 'as new' Reds for sale on ebay in a year or so.


_mike

[jaadgy akanni]

Shawn,

Thanks for the advise. I already use a Nikon D2H for photography, though I'm not very good with it.

I'm a computer programmer by professon and I paint for a hobby. So I some things about compression, artifacts and aesthetics. I'm not impressed by the camcorders I've been demonstrated at the local store. As a programmer, I would not like to deal with heavy artifacts if I were to create a post production algorithm for some effect. Maybe I'm in deep water here, but I can't see how I as a programmer would differentiate between artifacts and image details. So my simple theory would be that images with less compression would be much better suitet, right?


GO FOR IT!!! Having this camera and experimenting with it is the best cinematography school you could possibly have. When I got my first computer and music sequencer software I didn't know jack about song structure or music theory-just a few chords. But through trial and error, and a lot of experimenting, I learned more than I ever suspected I would, and became a successful music producer that way. I even learned how to write music from the sequencer software..so go figure.
If you want this camera and can afford it, don't even think twice-go for it!!! 'cause only good things can happen;-)

[Jack Wester]

if you're going to get one anyway then who cares what we think. but i don't think anyone should be allowed to tell you if you can buy it or not. put it this way, i can think of a few pro filmmakers out there that i would sooner tell to not buy red or even the cheapest camcorder-hacks.

it sounds like you're already well acquainted with a pc or mac so you're almost half way there. when you consider (not just editing) how much a digital cinema camera relies on pc horsepower and interface to put out a finished film/video, you'll find that you're way ahead of some non-technical filmmakers. you can get a good understanding of the art of filmmaking by using a $200 camcorder and a pc but buying into red now is a great way to also get an understanding of the tech side.
Wigby,

I really need to know more about what lenses to get. With my DSLR, I simply purchased a 24-120mm lense with the camera and that was that. Are there standards? Do I need converters to mount the lenses? Should I buy them from Red?

[Blayne Gorum]

It's a camera. You press record. You press stop. All the rest is just a tweak.

Get the cheapest zoom Red has and pray it doesn't breathe like I bet it will. Buy a Red Drive and the CF option. Depending on your shooting style carefully consider whether the EVF or the small LCD is best for you.

Anyone doing interviews will need the Red Drive because I've never heard of a 4 minute interview session. The CF will handle most everything else. Unless of course you are shooting doc style. Then you need to hope the Red Drive is fairly shock resistant. I'm betting it will do just fine at everything but heavy action.

Now, as to the notion you shouldn't be allowed. WTF? This is Red. There shouldn't be any notion about being allowed anything--if you can afford it, its yours. Remember--most people who buy Porsches and Ferrari's don't have Formula One experience.

[chuck colburn]

Jack,

Do some searching of this site, in particular Evin Grants lens forum.
And while your at it buy two cameras so you can shoot 3-D. (joking)

[Jack Wester]

LOL! She would never approve of my situation.


Also, today is my 28th birthday and I'm living at my Mom's, I have no car, and I'm about to spend every penny I have on a Red setup (about $70k). Red will also be my first (I've only been on the post-production side of the biz). I've actually been waiting for about 5 years, but wasn't impressed with anything on the market. I started saving when I first heard about Red on HD for indies.

I say go for it! :clown2:
Curran,

Thanks for the inspiration. I'm not filthy rich so the camera will set me back quite a bit. I have been wanting to shoot film for as long as I can remember, and now I can afford a camera that at least somebody else can produce great photage with. As I've never ever seen someone produce great photage with a camcorder, a camcorder does not excite me. So I'm ready to place my order now as soon as I've learnt about the lense stuff. And ofcourse, if I'm all wrong and if someone would make a reasonable argument why I could produce greate looking photage with a cheaper camera, I would be very happy to hear from you now, before I empty the bank account.

p.s.
My wife won't know until the camera arrives :-)

[Craig Schober]

Wigby,

I really need to know more about what lenses to get. With my DSLR, I simply purchased a 24-120mm lense with the camera and that was that. Are there standards? Do I need converters to mount the lenses? Should I buy them from Red?

you're asking the wrong guy. the red compact zoom will be the first lens i've ever purchased separately from a camera. but that doesn't mean that i don't know what i like when i see it.

you just need to build on what you already know. what kind of lens and dslr camera are you using and how do you like your 24-120mm zoom? there are mounting options available from red so that might make a good transition to the redone camera but eventually, i would suggest buying a red zoom. none of us can speak firsthand for the quality yet but i trust red and you can't beat the price when talking about new s35 cine lenses.

[Jack Wester]

Wow, there are going to be a lot of 'hardly used' and 'as new' Reds for sale on ebay in a year or so.


_mike
LOL

:-)

[Curran Giddens]

http://www.red.com/store/product_detail/20

I think this will be a very useful lens for an extremely good price. I don't think there are any published tests done on the "breathing issue" though.

[Mardi_Gras]

... My wife won't know until the camera arrives :-)

At least you're a thinking man. Knock yourself out, brother. Afterall, toys and boys go hand in hand.

[Jack Wester]

I assume you have spare cash in your bank account. Then I say go for it.

But start with as little as possible. That's my advice. One 35 or 50mm Nikon lens. A decent tripod that can handle the weight and then some (because you'll grow your camera package with time). As you get to know more, you'll add stuff. If you decide to keep the camera, you'll get addicted and start scouring the internet for more and more expensive lenses. It's worse than being hooked on junk.
Sean,

Thanks for the advice.

[Jack Wester]

Just discovered that the reason i don't know about aperture specification is that my Nikkon (G mount) lense does not have a manual dial on the lens to manipulate the aperture. It's apperantly not compatible with the Red camera. Now I really need to buy a real motion picture lense.

[Jack Wester]

A guess shooting film is quite different from taking still pictures. And if I'm not misstaking, with that kind of resolution, I might even choose to shoot a wider angle than I need to and then do some precise cropping in post production. That I do with the still camera (allthough my D2H has less pixels than does the Red camera!!!). Or am I missing something here?

Could any kind soul rate the lenses at Red in order the order of "should have" to "unnecesary"?

[mdo]

A guess shooting film is quite different from taking still pictures. And if I'm not misstaking, with that kind of resolution, I might even choose to shoot a wider angle than I need to and then do some precise cropping in post production. That I do with the still camera (allthough my D2H has less pixels than does the Red camera!!!). Or am I missing something here?

Could any kind soul rate the lenses at Red in order the order of "should have" to "unnecesary"?

It's going to be important for you to read as many of the posts on this site as you can, in order to ensure you understand the technical issues involved in working with the Red. Because the image quality is so high, if you haven't taken care to ensure your workflow can accommodate what you shoot, it may be difficult for you to produce the finished product.

Also, as you're reading the posts, you will want to ensure you clear up any terms that you don't understand. Use wikipedia.org or Google searches to find explanations for things like f-numbers. There are many sites that provide in-depth explanations for these things. I would come to this site for specific questions about the Red rather than fundamentals that are covered in many other places.

Good luck to you and congratulations on following your dream!

Mike

[GlennChan]

but I can't see how I as a programmer would differentiate between artifacts and image details.
Check out
http://www.motiondsp.com

If you average information over time, you can get rid of noise. Obviously this doesn't work if the image is moving, so you need to do motion compensation too. I don't think there is anything that does this on the desktop side that is affordable... though there are some manufacturers that make motion compensated noise reduction (e.g. digital vision I believe does that).

In practice, it is clearly best to start off with light/no compression and a noise-free sensor. Red definitely fits this bill.

Aesthetically, some people will sometimes prefer film for certain projects since it gives a different aesthetic. It has its own look. Sort of like how Holga/Lomo cameras have their own look for 35mm still work (these are really cheap cameras that are charming due to their crappy lenses, vignetting, etc.). But film has some technical advantages to it like more exposure latitude.

2- You still need talent, experience, and a good story.

If you want Hollywood production values, you still need lighting gear, a competent crew, an art department, (VFX), etc. etc. So Red doesn't change that. The gear + crew allows you more control over your image... but you don't necessarily need it to produce good imagery... just look at still photography. But in stills you can afford to sit around and wait for beautiful light (e.g. magic hour), which Hollywood usually can't.

But anyways, production values usually aren't anywhere as important as your content/story.

[number6]

Jack, I thought I was late to the party, but I'm months ahead of you doing much the same thing, unless you've been monitoring this forum for awhile. If you haven't, I would suggest you find posts by people who sound like they know what they are talking about, then click on their name and look for "other posts" by them.

There's always the usual suspects like Gibby, Evin Grant, David Mullen, Jeff Kilgroe and others whose posts are usually no-nonsense (unlike many of my oun) and whose answers will gradually bring focus to not only using the camera, but movie-making itself.

As far as telling the wife, you could 1. put it away until her birthday and tell her it was for her, 2. tell her you bought it to take nude footage of her while she is at her most beautiful, so the two of you can pop it into the hologram viewer in 40 or 50 years and remember her when she was perfect, or 3. if the first two don't work, after she packs and leaves, put doun a deposit on a second RED.

edit: Oh yeah... tell a good story!

[jaadgy akanni]

Jack, I can see you have a lot (and I mean a lot) of reading and studying up to do. It's obvious that the question that will follow from you have already been answered here and on other similar sites like Dvxuser.com, Dvinfo.net, and so on. I suggest you use the "search" function everytime you want to find out about technical stuff on cinematography and phototgraphy. You're obviously way behind us on many topics, so do yourself a favor and catch up by reading older posts that have already answered your questions. You'll find what you need to know.

I for one vote to close this thread 'cause it gets to a point where one feels like we're wasting our time trying to help the fashionably late kid catch up on the day of the exam.

[Brook Willard]

Hey Jack... if you haven't read through the FAQ yet... give it a go. There's a link in my signature.

[explosive]

I know nothing about film. I have no experience with either video or analogue film. So this will possibly upset someone, but I will get the Red One as my first camera. I think it'll be a great way for me to learn about the art of filmmaking. I know some will tell me that I should learn to crawl before I can walk. But that does not matter to me, because I'll get one anyway.

I'm a computer programmer and a painter, so at least I have some skills that could come handy???

What lenses will I need and why?

Thanks

Joachim "Jack" Wester

Stockholm, Sweden

Well people will say what they will about you, but you've got balls!

And truth be told, watching 10 movies a week, reading reading reading, doing a lot of filming, and taking a night course in marketing will get you a lot further than any film school...

[Michael Schrengohst]

Yes, but you make no connections playing with yourself at home....
Film and TV is what I have made a living from for 27 years and
I have a degree in Nuclear Physics.... go figure.

[PaulClements]

Hi Jack

One of the best things about buying a RedOne camera is that as a beginner you can learn using professional gear without the typically hefty price of equipment and other associated costs such as filmstock and processing. So good choice!

Best of luck!

Paul

[Desert Rune]

I know nothing about film. I have no experience with either video or analogue film. So this will possibly upset someone, but I will get the Red One as my first camera.

WARNING for rookies... (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3217)

[explosive]

Yes, but you make no connections playing with yourself at home....

True... but that sounds soooooooo wrong :-|

[explosive]

Yes, but you make no connections playing with yourself at home....
Film and TV is what I have made a living from for 27 years and
I have a degree in Nuclear Physics.... go figure.

How did you get into film and tv from nuclear physics btw?

[Jack Wester]

Yes, but you make no connections playing with yourself at home....
Film and TV is what I have made a living from for 27 years and
I have a degree in Nuclear Physics.... go figure.
Congratulations. Film and TV sounds much more fun than nuclear physics. I would trade Stephen Hawkins company for Ettore Scolas any day of the week.

My idea to learn something would be to lend the camera and equipment for free in return for some joining and watching. I've never had the patience for any classroom work. I barely managed the mandatory shool when I was a child, let alone the nuclear physics.

[explosive]

Congratulations. Film and TV sounds much more fun than nuclear physics. I would trade Stephen Hawkins company for Ettore Scolas any day of the week.

Hey man... dont dis hawkins. As soon as Jim gets that RED mouth controllor add-on developed, Prof Hawkins will be leavin all us suckers for dust! Albeit, leaving us rather slowly in dust.

[Iron Possum]

Wow, there are going to be a lot of 'hardly used' and 'as new' Reds for sale on ebay in a year or so.


_mike

So true... I think I'm going to hold off purchasing for a year to see just how many come back onto the second hand market.

[GlennChan]

My idea to learn something would be to lend the camera and equipment for free in return for some joining and watching. I've never had the patience for any classroom work.
You could also volunteer your labour for free (or work) as a production assistant... it's how most people in production break in. At the very least, you see what happens on professional sets (e.g. long hours, lots of equipment you can't afford, etc.). Definitely cheaper and better than film school.

If you want to get some experience in post, you can try to find an internship at a post facility. Or you can look at getting into matte painting, though I don't know the best avenue for that.

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

Curran,

Thanks for the inspiration. I'm not filthy rich so the camera will set me back quite a bit.
......
p.s.
My wife won't know until the camera arrives :-)


Ahw, so whats a divorce among friends?

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

Film and TV is what I have made a living from for 27 years and
I have a degree in Nuclear Physics.... go figure.

Ever felt like nuking a set?

Jochen

[mezmo]

Hi Jack and Red Rookies,
I'd definitly go with buying the short Red package as suggested
in earlier posts.
The Red camera will not teach you how to light, about film grammer,
and how to manipulate dynamic range.
A good film school will do all this and more. It will also give you
the oportunity to meet others your age with similar interests
and start creative partnerships. VERY important.
Potential Directors & Producers.
You may also be able to rent your camera to the school and be
the GUY with the high rez camera.
So hold off on purchasing the "works" and spend some bucks on
education, even a good intensive series of short courses will help.
To be sucessful in this industry you have to have something "special".
You have to learn how to be special and gain a REAL talent for
digital/film cinematography.
The principals are the same for both.
Sorry to come off a little strong.
Cheers Mezmo

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

To be honest, I also think this camera is a bit overkill for someone without experience... Why don't you first buy a HDV camera, a good one, and learn with that?

And to be very crude, it's your life of course, but... spending 70K without your wife knowing it?
You don't need a RED camera for your movie, you need to know how to tell your story. And yes, doing that with one of the maybe finest images possible from a digital camera (RED) is everyone's dream here, but really...
70.000 dollars... You can always learn and hire the camera.
Or maybe even buy a RED but with a basic package.
One of the reasons I'm also saying this is because I've seen many films on the internet from people raving about their mini35 adapter (great tool in itself) but if you watch the movies, actor's are out of focus 90% of the time...
Maybe I'm being too harsh, and everybody should get the chance to learn, even with 35 mm Depth of Field.

Now, you obviously already made your choice, so I really wish you the best with it, the camera is without a doubt one of the best digital camera's out there. I also wish you the best with your wife :biggrin:

But be sure also to have budget for actor's, lightening, crew, support for your camera, postproduction,...
That's more important then the camera itself.

Sorry if that's not exactly the enthousiastic advice you were searching for, but that's my honest opinion: that 70k on a Digital Cinema 35mm Camera is a bit overkill for someone without experience...

[Craig Schober]

i liken less expensive camcorders to a less expensive film school. if you've got the money, you should use it on what you see fit but you can't expect anything more from red than you can a cheap camera just like you can't expect to get more out of an expensive film school than out of a community college video 101 class. it's all about your story and your passion. some people (like me) are driven to write and shoot partly because of a fascination with the technology so it might be an excuse but i want and need red for my next feature. maybe that's you too?

[Zakaree Sandberg]

film school = the biggest waste of money and time (for me)
id much rather of learned myself on set...
thats my thoughts on that.

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

film school = the biggest waste of money and time (for me)
id much rather of learned myself on set...
thats my thoughts on that.


Yes, went to film school for 6 months, then I quiet.
I agree, you can learn the most on your own, by experience and internet.
(Film school isn't as expensive in Belgium as it is in the USA)
Still, I stand by my original post.

[Curran Giddens]

http://www.hollywoodcamerawork.us/

I have to recommend this DVD set instead of film school. But please keep in mind that I have no experience either in film school or on a movie set.

When I create my storyboards I will start by copying camera blocking techniques, camera movements, and lighting of scenes from different movies. After awhile I should be able to create my own style, instead of just copying other styles.

[Jack Wester]

http://www.hollywoodcamerawork.us/

I have to recommend this DVD set instead of film school. But please keep in mind that I have no experience either in film school or on a movie set.

When I create my storyboards I will start by copying camera blocking techniques, camera movements, and lighting of scenes from different movies. After awhile I should be able to create my own style, instead of just copying other styles.
Advice taken. DVDs ordered. Thanks.

[Jason Francois]

Hey Jack,

Here's another one from Rush over at DVXuser.

http://www.digitalcinemacourse.com/

I bought the Hollywood camerawork and the Digital Cinema Course, as a refresher from being out of film school for over ten years.

I have to say that I learned more from them than I did at school....in the academice sense. That said, the most is learned the day after film school ends, so these DVD's, lots of research, networking and lots of pracitice will get you on your way.

Just think. Camera gear, lights, production funds all for the cost of many film schools and all within a couple of years less. Just one way to do it.

Jason

[albert rudnicki]

Oh ah; yeah

[albert rudnicki]

You don't go for the best-looking girl in high school to start a family....
Do you?

[planet e]

always buy the most expensive equipment you can afford. for the most part, in video production, you get what you pay for (with the exception of RED, where you get way more than you pay for....). and don't buy any equipment that you can't afford.

two simple rules to live by, and you'll do fine.

[Michael Schrengohst]

How did you get into film and tv from nuclear physics btw?

I attended a nurd convention at UT Austin. This was for the people
who had garnered a partial scholarship to attend UT to study
physics....I also took some film classes and after graduating found
some work in the film biz and never went after a physics career.

[Michael Schrengohst]

Ever felt like nuking a set?

Jochen

Yes, today as a matter of fact...

[donatello b]

i have a film degree, no regrets - would do it over ... it was the non film required classes ( general education) that turned out to be more important in the long run ...

yes, you'll learn more about lighting, camera etc being on a film set BUT there's more to one's life/learning then just film ...

[Jack Wester]

http://www.hollywoodcamerawork.us/

I have to recommend this DVD set instead of film school. But please keep in mind that I have no experience either in film school or on a movie set.

When I create my storyboards I will start by copying camera blocking techniques, camera movements, and lighting of scenes from different movies. After awhile I should be able to create my own style, instead of just copying other styles.
I bought it and have been watching the first DVD. That piece of advice was invaluable! I honestly don't know how I would have obtained so much good information so easily. Many thanks!!

[Curran Giddens]

Thanks for reminding me. I have been meaning to watch my DVDs again to refresh my memory....