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Leerafel
08-02-2009, 07:07 PM
Does anyone know of a tutorial floating around out there about how to put together a Digital Cinema Package for theatrical exhibition?

I've heard great things about QuVis Wraptor, but there is the tiny problem being that I don't own a Mac. I run a PC Adobe CS3/Avid Xpress system. Can I make a DCP only using the tools available for PC?

Leerafel
08-02-2009, 11:12 PM
Oh wow, I think I actually figured out how to do it on my own.

Jean-Charles Wolfarth
08-03-2009, 02:05 AM
Could you please tell me how ? I've only heard of the Mac solution. Qube's solution is quite expensive on the PC side.

Martin Weiss
08-03-2009, 02:11 AM
QuVis has gone bust, so please do share your solution.

Leerafel
08-03-2009, 11:09 PM
Oh yeah, I'd be glad to! I've been trying to figure this out for a few months, and as I'm sure you know, it is a major hassle because you sometimes don't even know WHAT you should be searching for. Just running a search for DCP does you practically no good whatsoever.

Alright, here is the skinny:

You can probably find other work-arounds if you don't have the specific software that I mention, but these are the tools that I used to create my first successful DCP:

UPDATE: Chris informed me about a piece of Windows software called CineAsset, and I've been checking that out. It seems to run great on XP and Vista, 64 or 32 bit, and it lets you pretty much bypass practically everything covered in this tutorial! I have not been able to test my DCP I created within CineAsset, but Chris has warned that he has had trouble with getting the correct colors to show up. I also don't know the cost difference between CinneAsset vs EasyDCP.



HARDWARE

AMD Phenom Quad Core 64 bit w/7GB RAM running Vista Home Premium (64 bit version)
and also a separate system (my laptop) running an AMD Turion 64 w/1GB RAM with Windows XP Professional (32 bit).
NOTE: CERTAIN STEPS IN THE PROCESS REQUIRE 32 BIT WINDOWS XP BECAUSE OF SOFTWARE COMPATABILITY, WHILE NO STEP REQUIRES A 64 BIT SYSTEM. I USED MY 64 BIT SYSTEM ONLY TO SPEED RENDERING TIMES AND MULTITASK PROCESSES TO SPEED UP MY WORKFLOW. ACTUAL PACKAGING OF THE DCP MUST BE DONE ON 32 BIT WINDOWS XP, THOUGH IT MAY BE POSSIBLE ON 32 BIT VISTA.
UPDATE - I just got it to work ONCE on Vista 64! Unfortunately, I can't get it to work again. :confused5:
UPDATE - Okay I can get it to run consistently by changing its compatability to "Windows 98/ME" but there are still glitchy problems with importing things causing it to crash.
UPDATE - The folks over at Fraunhofer have been able to fix the Vista 64 problem with v1.2.2 of EasyDCP, however as of this update, it is not "published" meaning that you'll have to email them and ask for it specifically untill it (or later versions) officially becomes the "current" version. I have successfully compiled a working DCP with relatively few problems using v1.2.2. The only issue I've encountered is occasional random freeze-ups causing you to have to CTRL+ALT+DELETE and close it from the Task Manager.
SOFTWARE


Adobe Premier CS3
Adobe Audition 1.5 and Soundbooth CS3
Adobe After Effects CS3
Quicktime 7 Pro
DJV Viewer (http://djv.sourceforge.net/)
Paragon Partition Manager
Ext2 Installable File System (Ext2IFS v1.11a) (http://www.fs-driver.org/download.html)
EasyDCP (http://www.iis.fraunhofer.de/EN/bf/bv/cinema/dcpcreation.jsp)
That SHOULD be all you need.

OVERVIEW/WORKFLOW

STEP 1 - Get your digital master.
STEP 2 - Convert your digital master to a .DPX image sequence using After Effects.
STEP 3 - Separate your audio into mono tracks and save individually as 24 Bit PCM uncompressed .WAV files.
STEP 4 - Combine audio tracks and DPX image sequence using EasyDCP to create DCI compliant XML and MXF files.
STEP 5 - Use special formatting software and drivers to create a Ext2 formatted storage device within windows, and copy DCP files onto Ext2 formatted media.
STEP 6 - Make friends with a booth manager who works at a digital cinema equiped theater, and he/she can help you test your DCP on the theater's equipment.
STEP 1 - PREPING VIDEO FOOTAGE

All you are really doing in this phase is making your digital master "print." If you already have your master, then go to the next step, but there may be some caveats for ideal file formats.

Check out the DCI Standards (http://reduser.net/forum/www.dcimovies.com/.../DCI_Digital_Cinema_System_Spec_v1.pdf) to find out the exact size constraints, but for simplicity, I'll just use my standard generic 2k settings. Everything from this point out should be understood as being 2048x1080 square pixels even though it is a kinda goofy 1.89 aspect ratio. Ah well. You'll have to fiddle with the different combinations for your individual projects. Just make sure the final output has no more than 2048 horizontal pixels, and no more than 1556 vertical pixels and that it is 24fps progressive, and whatever setting you use must be used throughout the process.

I used Premier Pro CS3 for this step, but I don't care what software you use--just export your project as a .MOV (Quicktime) using PNG compression, which I'm told is pretty much lossless. If you have a different preference, fine, but i know that compression works great.

IT MUST BE EXPORTED AS 24fps PROGRESSIVE or it won't work for your DCP.

NOTE: You don't actually have to export the entire movie. For example, you can break it down into several "reels" if you wish so you can work with smaller chunks. It doesn't all need to be one video file. If you are doing a short, I'd stick to one "reel."

Check the clip and make sure it looks right. You know, make sure that it doesn't look funny because of a mistake converting between framerates, or that the aspect ratio isn't all screwed up. You should be ready for step 2.

Leerafel
08-03-2009, 11:10 PM
STEP 2 - PREPING VIDEO FOR DCP

I have heard and read so much jargon surrounding the requirements for DCP, but really, it is cake. You just have to know what settings you are really looking for.

What you are doing in this step is converting your footage into DPX format, which is basically the standard format if you were to convert film to digital for post. UPDATE: What I KNOW about DPX is that I don't know dick about it. HAHA. You just need to know that it works for this workflow.

NOTE: If you already have your digital master and it is in a different format than what STEP 1 calls for, you don't need to re-compile it. You can convert to DPX from just about any format. Just make sure you aren't working from an already lossy compression like H.264 or MPEG4 unless it is up to BluRay standards.

NOTE FOR RED USERS: If you are working with a project shot on RED, just use the RED tools provided to compile to DPX. Just use the same settings used in After Effects below.

Alright, so open After Effects. Click COMPOSITION>NEW COMPOSITION or just do CTRL "N"

Match the composition settings to you digital master. Heres my settings:

WIDTH: 2048
HIGHTH: 1080
PIXEL ASPECT RATIO: SQUARE PIXELS
FRAME RATE: 24 FRAMES PER SECOND (**This is absolutely required**)
RESOLUTION: Full
START TIME: 00;00;00;00
DURRATION: (put the duration of your clip here. Actually, you are probably fine if you just leave it at 0. Dunno. I put the length of my clip in.)

Okay, you have a new composition made, and it is ALMOST to DCP standards.


Go to FILE>PROJECT SETTINGS and change the DEPTH under COLOR SETTINGS to 32 Bits Per Channel (Float).
Import your digital master. Now drag it from your project box and drop it in the monitor for Composition 1.
Click COMPOSITION>ADD TO RENDER QUEUE
Find the Render Queue. It should be a tab in the composition/timeline frame, but it could be different if you are using a custom workspace.
Alright, here are the settings to use:

RENDER SETTINGS: BEST SETTINGS (its the default, so you shouldn't have to change it)
LOG: ERRORS ONLY (I don't care what you put here. It is for debugging. It doesn't effect anything about your actual output file)










OUTPUT MODULE:

Click on the little arrow to change the Output Module settings. Choose "CUSTOM"
Select "CINEON SEQUENCE" under format
Move to the COLOR MANAGEMENT TAB at the top.
Under Color Management, click on CINEON SETTINGS
Make sure it is set to "FULL RANGE" and "8-bpc (0-255)" That should be the default so you shouldn't have to change it... in theory.
At the bottom, select "DPX" as the file format.
Click "Ok" to close that window
Click "Ok" on the Output Module settings.
OUTPUT TO:


You need to select a destination for the DPX image sequence. You will need a TON of space. I mean a freaking TON. When I exported my 2k clip that is only about 6 or 7 minutes long, it was 70 gigabytes. It might be good to figure that you'll need approximately 10GB for each minute of footage. That is why it would be wise to break down a feature film into ten minute long "reels" rather than trying to export a 9 to 12 Terabyte DPX sequence. Savvy? The actual DCP will be TINY in comparison, so don't worry too much, but you are going to need a shit ton of space.

NOTE: I am really not familiar with the DPX format, and there may be a way to get the file sizes down and have it still work for the DCP package. If anyone on the REDUSER.net forums is more familiar with using DPX and CINEON, please give me your tips and advice.

Also, this is an image sequence--not a stand alone movie file. You don't want to tell AE to export it to your desktop, or "My Documents" or something without first CREATING A FOLDER FOR THE IMAGES TO BE CONTAINED IN!!! I created a folder on my external drive named "DPX SEQUENCE" and had the image sequence exported there, nicely contained.

You don't need to change the file name from the default. You really just don't want to mess up the "[#####]" part of it. If you really want to, you can change the file name in front of the number part, but you MUST leave the number part intact and just before the prefix.

You are ready to render! Find the button, and let 'er fly!

CONCLUDING NOTES and TIPS FOR STEP 2: The set up should be pretty quick. The rendering is going to take a while. Also, as stated earlier, it will take a lot of space. A nice thing about rendering in AE is that you can pause the render process. Even if you click "STOP" it will create a new item in the render queue that will basically just pick up rendering where it left off, and since it is an image sequence rather than a stand alone video file, you don't have to start from the beginning anyway!

This can be helpful if you only need to re-do frames 274893 through 354959 instead of having to re render the ENIRE THING over again. You can also transfer the frames if you are running out of space. You just have to make sure that they all end up together in a folder when you are ready to make the actual DCP. If you didn't already break down your feature film into "reels" you can still just do it at this point. Create folders named "reel1" "reel2" "reel3" etc, and just cut and paste the appropriate frames into those reel folders as the entire image sequence is being rendered to a general "pool" folder. But it can be tricky to figure out where to make the "splice" because it can be tricky to view DPX images in a timely manner. That is where DJV Viewer (http://djv.sourceforge.net/) comes in handy.

It allows you to view DPX images and sequences! You don't even have to wait for the image sequence to finish rendering. You can view whatever frames have been rendered in the sequence, even as more frames continue to pop into the folder while AE is rendering. It is definitely handy for checking to make sure everything looks right on the fly without having to find out after the fact that you just wasted hours of your time on the previous render. It can also be useful if you want to just experiment with the different DXP settings to learn what they do.

One final note concerning the size of DXP files: There MAY be a different route you can take. EasyDCP will allow you to open DXP sequences AS WELL AS JPEG2000 sequences with the CORRECT FORMATTING. JPEG2000 image sequences should be MUCH smaller than the DPX sequences, but I haven't experimented with it too much. From what I have read, it doesn't seem like you can just export as a normal JPEG2000 sequence with your typical production tools and have it work right. If you want to experiment with it, you should be able to easily export as JPEG2000 image sequence from Quicktime Pro 7, but it has the wrong extension. It uses .jp2 instead of .j2c, which is what EasyDCP requires. I'm currently experimenting with simply changing the extension to .j2c to see if EasyDCP will accept it. UPDATE: No, EasyDCP will not accept .jp2 image sequences that have simply had their extention changed to .j2c, however I forgot to mention that it WILL accept TIFF sequences. (Thanks "M Most" for the reminder!)

Leerafel
08-03-2009, 11:12 PM
STEP 3 - Prepping Audio

This was a lot less complicated than it originally seemed. I did all of it in Adobe Audition 1.5, which was the precursor to Adobe Soundbooth. I have both, but I prefer Audition for a lot of things. I have a hard time doing what I really want in Soundbooth. You could probably do the same things in a free program like Audacity, but I haven't tried it.

Just get the stereo soundtrack directly from your digital master, whether you import it from Premier, or whether you open the digital master (with video included) into Soundbooth directly. Taking it from the digital master will HELP ensure (not guarantee...) that it will line up correctly, and opening it this way also allows the file to have some necessary meta-data, including that it was edited on a 24p timeline.

NOTE: This meta-data may not matter. Haha. But if you have problems getting your audio into EasyDCP after taking the audio from a source that isn't directly associated with the digital master, then that could be why. I don't really know. I haven't tried it any other way.


Anyway, so you open the audio.
Split all of the tracks into mono. In Soundbooth, you go FILE>EXPORT>CHANNELS TO MONO FILES
You can close the original file now. Or leave it open, I don't care. Soundbooth should have automatically imported your new mono tracks. For stereo, it is easy. It has the original file name plus _L or _R to let you know which track it is. For multi track surround sound, I don't have a clue. I haven't worked with it. It shouldn't be THAT different from splitting stereo to mono. Just get each channel as a mono track, and make sure each track is labeled for the appropriate channel for later on.
Now, just save each track as a good old fashioned mono PCM .WAV file with the following settings:



COMPRESSOR: UNCOMPRESSED
SAMPLE RATE: 48000
SAMPLE TYPE: 24 Bit
CHANNELS: MONO


Thats it! I spent a TON of time trying to figure out all of this nonsense about Broadcast WAV files, and how they are supposedly so much different than normal consumer WAV files, and as it turns out it is simply an uncompressed WAV that CAN have extra meta data intact. It also needs to be 24 Bit audio. 16 Bit audio is supposed to be supported in the DCI specifications, but I haven't had any luck getting 16 bit audio into EasyDCP. If there IS any thing different that a WAV needs to be DCP compliant, EasyDCP takes care of it. Just take your separate audio tracks and save them as Mono, 24 Bit, Uncompressed .WAVs (usually referred to as PCM .WAVs, but not always, so don't be confused!)

STEP 4 - CREATE DCP FILES

If you followed the previous steps, you should have no problem importing them into EasyDCP. Here is where it is necessary to have a 32 Bit operating system. Or just XP. I'm not sure. All I know is that EasyDCP fails when I try to launch it on my Vista 64 Bit rig. I've tried all sorts of things to get it to work, but it just doesn't.** It works great on my XP Professional 32 Bit laptop though. It is also available for Mac, if that helps any of you out.

UPDATE - I can now get EasyDCP.exe to run in Vista 64 without crashing by switching its compatability to "Windows 98 / Windows ME", however it seems to crash whenever I try to import the audio tracks.


UPDATE - The folks over at Fraunhofer have been able to fix the Vista 64 problem with v1.2.2 of EasyDCP, however as of this update, it is not "published" meaning that you'll have to email them and ask for it specifically untill it (or later versions) officially becomes the "current" version. I have successfully compiled a working DCP with relatively few problems using v1.2.2. The only issue I've encountered is occasional random freeze-ups causing you to have to CTRL+ALT+DELETE and close it from the Task Manager.

EasyDCP - EasyDCP is available to download as a DEMO only. It will function just as well as the full version, but it will leave a watermark on your DCP. You can call the company up and buy a full license for the software for about 2000 bones to remove the watermark. The software is INCREDIBLY user friendly and straightforward. If you have followed my previous steps, everything should be compatible. I probably don't need to explain how to use it, but I will anyway.

Open DCP and create a new 2k 24p project. I would recommend using the interop (newest DCP standard) settings rather than the SMPTE (old DCP standard). If you are trying to project on a system that has not updated to the interop protocols, then you will want to go with SMPTE.

Import visual track. EasyDCP will recognize the image sequence as a single visual track, not individual image files, so no worries there.

Import audio track. EasyDCP will ask for each individual mono channel, and will interpret the separate files as a single audio track. Nice. So browse and find your left track in the "L" marked field, and then do your right track, and then click okay.

Drag and drop your imported tracks into the "REEL" box thingy. Click "Make DCP". Choose a folder for it to put all of the individual XML and MXF files into, and click "Ok". BAM. You are good to go. Well, kinda. You still have to get your Digital Cinema Package onto the "package" part.

Leerafel
08-03-2009, 11:14 PM
STEP 5 - COMPLETING THE PACKAGE

Okay, you now have to get the handful of XML and MXF files onto an Ext2 formatted hard drive, or solid state media. Actually, it doesn't have to be Ext2, it could also be Ext3, which might work better in certain situations. More on that later.

You need Linux. OOOOOooor, you need software that can format a drive to Ext2 (or 3) within Windows. Or Mac. This is not a Mac tutorial. Don't ask me questions about how to do it on a Mac.

I used Paragon Partition Manager. Personal edition will cost you $40. I figure there has got to be some freeware that does the same thing, but I sure couldn't find it.

You also will need a storage device to be your DCP. If you are talking about a short film, you can EASILY fit it onto a thumb drive. My 6 minute clip is only 2.23GB. You DON'T need some fancy hard drive. All the DCP systems in theaters have USB 2.0 slots, and they copy the entire "film" onto their high speed RAID arrays. You don't need something with a high read speed or even need to worry about it because it isn't going to PLAY off of your media. You just want something that is going to be pretty reliable. My DCP for this first clip is a Wal-Mart $20 SD card. You can use any USB 2.0 media that can be formatted to Linux file-systems.


Format the entire drive to Ext2 or 3. I had to go with Ext3. I'll explain in a bit.
Now how to get the DCP files onto your DCP if you don't have Linux!? Ext2 Installable File System (Ext2IFS v1.11a) (http://www.fs-driver.org/download.html) will do just the trick. It is a freeware driver that will allow your windows system to recognize Linux file-systems, and allow you to read and write to them just as you can with FAT32 or NTFS.

Install EXT2IFS
Check to see if your PC now recognizes your Ext2 formatted media. You might have to restart your system. For some reason with my SD card, I had to go with Ext3 for my system to see it.
Copy all of the files that were created by EasyDCP from their folder onto the drive completely naked--meaning not in a folder--just right at the root of the drive.
NOTE: I DID try copying them over being completely naked myself, but it did not seem to have any effect on the DCP.

SUB NOTE: Not really.

SUB SUB NOTE: Okay, Yes really. ;-) My AC doesn't work that well.
There! You have a DCP! But how do you find out if it worked?

STEP 6 - TESTING

I haven't yet found software that will let me watch my DCP. The best thing is to have an actual Digital Cinema projection system available for you to fool around with. Here is how to find one...


Get a haircut. Just humor me.
Find a theater that you KNOW is equipped with digital cinema.
Show up in the morning or early afternoon in NICE CLOTHES. Preferably a nice suite.
Have business cards in your front pocket of your shirt that say you are a PRODUCER, a DIRECTOR, EDITOR, or a DIRECTOR of PHOTOGRAPHY.
NOTE: Don't lie to them! What business to you have trying to make a DCP if you aren't one of those! This isn't a "how to con the theater" instructional! I just know this works because that's what I did.

Meet as many of the employees as you can on your way to the customer service desk.
Introduce yourself to the person at the information desk. Tell them you are whatever your business card says you are, and hand them your card. Be sure to smile. Tell them that you need to rent one of their screens to show some potential investors some of your work, but you need to test your Digital Cinema Package, and you'd like to talk to the BOOTH MANAGER. They may introduce you to him/her, or at least give you his/her number, but then again, they might not. If not, just move on and talk to a different employee. I had to go through several before I found who I needed--granted, I didn't know that it was the BOOTH MANAGER that I really need to see. I was just trying to find the house manager.
NOTE: If you aren't looking for potential investors, then you don't have to say that. You can tell them that you want to rent their screen to show your latest film to a limited audience or something. The important thing is that the employee you are talking to (especially if it is the manager) gets the impression that they should help you because you will be one of their patrons if you can get your DCP working. Do please try to be honest though!

Once you get in contact with the booth manager, introduce yourself and hand him your card, smile, and tell him about your project and what you want to do. Ask if he is free anytime between screenings to help you test your DCP, and set up a time. When you come for the test, give him the DCP and he'll handle the rest. He'll probably ask you if it is "Scope" or "Mono/Flat" (Scope meaning "CinemaScope," meaning that is squished and will need to be digitally or optically stretched out wide to show the correct aspect ratio, and "Mono" or "Flat" meaning square pixels--requires nothing special in order to be screened properly. You can switch easily back and forth between "scope" processing and "mono" processing right there in the projector, so it isn't a big deal.

The guy that I'm working with right now at my local theater has been great. Really cool guy. I can call him up any time and set up an appointment to come in and test my DCPs when he has some spare time. Just be mindful that he's on the job, so you don't want to keep him occupied for too long. When performing tests, stick to short clips, not feature length!

I find that usually people who are working at movie theaters LOVE movies, and they are at a theater because they WISH they were involved in making movies but they don't know how to "break into it", so most booth managers should be pretty thrilled to help you out, but don't take it for granted. House managers on the other hand can be snooty I find.

WRAP UP

I hope this guide has been helpful! This is the stuff I had to figure out the hard way through months of trial and error, so I hope it has saved some others some time! I'll try to update this as I find out new things, especially if I find a solution to the DPX size issue or find out how to make correctly formatted J2C image sequences. If anyone has any suggestions, let me know!

Leerafel
08-03-2009, 11:37 PM
Could you please tell me how ? I've only heard of the Mac solution. Qube's solution is quite expensive on the PC side.

Unfortunately, EasyDCP will cost you about 2000 bones to remove the watermark, and you NEED EasyDCP for my particular workflow, but a watermarked DCP is better than no DCP in my situation. From what I can tell, it isn't mainstream enough to have been "cracked" yet. I honestly don't mind paying for it since I intend to use it for commercial use.

Plus, I figured that if people wanted to try to figure out a completely DIY way of making a DCP without using EasyDCP, this method at least provides you with a fully working DCP that could be reverse-engineered to educate one's self on its inner workings. Otherwise, you'd have to deal with trying to bootleg a highly secured studio encrypted one OR trying to translate the DCI Standards documents into practical-use language. Good luck with that! Haha.

Jean-Charles Wolfarth
08-04-2009, 12:16 AM
Wow ! Thank you very much for your detailed guide ! I'll try it ! Thanks for taking your time !

H. Farberg
08-04-2009, 01:18 AM
Thank you for this! I spent ages trying to find the same information a couple of months ago!

M Most
08-04-2009, 09:15 AM
While Easy DCP can do what you are saying, I would point out that it expects its input material to have been color corrected for a digital cinema environment - that is, 2.6 gamma and P3 color space. If you feed it HD material, it will likely project on a DCI compliant projector as too dark and a bit too red.

DPX is a file format, it is not a compressor. In fact, a DPX file is, by definition, uncompressed. It is basically a container that was designed to accommodate Cineon "essence" but also carry associated metadata, such as time code, keycode, a log encoding identifier, and other things (it can even carry digital audio if you want - the Rave HD device uses that functionality) that the original Cineon file format did not allow for. Since it is just a container, the picture information does not have to be Cineon format, or even log encoded.

Leerafel
08-04-2009, 11:30 AM
Wow ! Thank you very much for your detailed guide ! I'll try it ! Thanks for taking your time !

Haha, yeah I just sat down and wrote it all down while it was fresh in my mind. At the time, I hadn't actually TESTED the DCP to see if it was playable, but good news! I just got back from the theater, and it played PERFECTLY without a hitch. When I played the original footage on my PC, I was kinda worried that some of the artifacts would really stand out, but actually they were hardly visible on the BIG screen. Interesting. Good luck all!

Also, for those who are interested in how badly watermarked the footage is if you use the free version of EasyDCP, it is not too bad! In the top left hand corner of the screen there is an opaque EasyDCP Logo. I wouldn't send it to film festivals that way... but you can get away with leaving it there if you are just doing tests, or only going to watch the footage with a really limited audience, like freinds and family, or for test screenings.

Leerafel
08-04-2009, 11:37 AM
While Easy DCP can do what you are saying, I would point out that it expects its input material to have been color corrected for a digital cinema environment - that is, 2.6 gamma and P3 color space. If you feed it HD material, it will likely project on a DCI compliant projector as too dark and a bit too red.

DPX is a file format, it is not a compressor. In fact, a DPX file is, by definition, uncompressed. It is basically a container that was designed to accommodate Cineon "essence" but also carry associated metadata, such as time code, keycode, a log encoding identifier, and other things (it can even carry digital audio if you want - the Rave HD device uses that functionality) that the original Cineon file format did not allow for. Since it is just a container, the picture information does not have to be Cineon format, or even log encoded.

Ah, good to know about DPX. Thanks for the info! I actually had no problem whatsoever with color conversion. The footage looks exactly the same on the cinema screen as it does on my PC. Tested and verified this morning! Woo hoo! :w00t: I was worried that I was going to have to fiddle with it some more to get the color and gamma just right, but the DPX export from AE with the settings I listed seems to work perfectly.

The reason that I said to use Cineon DPX setting is... because it is my only option for outputting any form of DPX haha. I've downloaded REDCINE to fiddle with trying to export DPX sequences with that, but I'm having trouble opening clips. I kinda figured it would only open RED files... but does anyone have a suggestion for an altranate filetype that could be opened via REDCINE for export to DPX?

Leerafel
08-04-2009, 11:46 AM
Thank you for this! I spent ages trying to find the same information a couple of months ago!

Buddy, I hear ya. It is so tricky to figure out because you don't always know exactly what info you need to search for since some of the terms are not universally recognized. I just got REALLY ambitious the other day after I posted my request for help on here, and the moon and the stars all alligned or something, and I just sort of clumsily stumbled upon this solution one piece at a time with some trial and error. :cheers2:

I hope more people like M Most will aid in enlightening me on how some of these things actually work.

M Most
08-04-2009, 11:50 AM
Ah, good to know about DPX. Thanks for the info! I actually had no problem whatsoever with color conversion. The footage looks exactly the same on the cinema screen as it does on my PC. Tested and verified this morning! Woo hoo! :w00t: I was worried that I was going to have to fiddle with it some more to get the color and gamma just right, but the DPX export from AE with the settings I listed seems to work perfectly.

What that tells me is that Easy DCP is expecting images that have been color corrected for HD video, something I've since confirmed. That does make it "easy." The fact that the program works is not surprising because Fraunhofer Institute was contracted by the DCI to develop the original tools for creating DCPs and for testing them. You should also be able to use TIFF sequences as well as DPX sequences for input.

FYI, DCP's can also be delivered on DVD-Rom. In fact, that is one of the preferred formats. Make sure it's formatted as UDF.

Jaime Vallés
08-04-2009, 12:31 PM
This is one of the most informative threads I've encountered on Reduser. Thank you, Leerafel, for the detailed posts!

Leerafel
08-04-2009, 12:34 PM
Yeah I read that about Fraunhofer when I was bumbling around online trying to figure everything out. Cool stuff. I'm going to fiddle around some more with running TIFF sequences and other DPX formats through easy DCP. I need to find a more space-efficient format!

And yeah! I had forgotten that they would accept DVD-Rom! Thanks for all of the great input M!

Leerafel
08-04-2009, 03:04 PM
This is one of the most informative threads I've encountered on Reduser. Thank you, Leerafel, for the detailed posts!

It was my pleasure to share the info.

Leerafel
08-04-2009, 10:38 PM
I've updated the tutorial. I was able to get EasyDCP to run on my 64 bit Vista system by changing the compatability to Windows 98 / Windows ME. Kind of a wierd compatability, if you ask me, but it seems to work.

UPDATE: Never mind... seems to have trouble importing the audio clips... I'll have to stick to my 32 Bit system for now.

Jean-Charles Wolfarth
08-04-2009, 11:20 PM
On my PC system Redcine sucks too while exporting DPX sequences. I found another way : using After Effects and the Red importer plugin (downloadable at red.com/support). You can create batch exports of 10 bits DPX at full resolution. Quite slow. Sure there might be problems of time code, etc.. (I haven't tested all the details, I'm so desperate to be on PC as Red releases most of the useful apps on Mac).

Chris Swinbanks
08-05-2009, 12:01 AM
FYI, there is a new version of EasyDCP called EasyDCP+ (still in Beta, you can email and ask for a test license, same deal with the logo top-left corner) which also does stereo 3D packaging, and KDM generation & encryption of the DCP.
I'm testing that at the moment for RealD 3D playback.... seems to work fine.... for the most part (no pun on Mike's name intended).

Also, Doremi have a software package called CineAsset, more open to "fiddle" with your images, but I seem to be having some colour weirdness at the Cinema with it... maybe attributable to Mike's comment about the P3 colour space... since I was feeding it Rec709 material.

DVS Clipster seems to be the bees-knees (had a demo last week) for serious DCP generation and playback for QC... quite $$ though.
Hmmm, and a lot of similarity between the hardware card and a little red-rocket...:rolleyes:

Leerafel
08-05-2009, 01:40 AM
FYI, there is a new version of EasyDCP called EasyDCP+ (still in Beta, you can email and ask for a test license, same deal with the logo top-left corner) which also does stereo 3D packaging, and KDM generation & encryption of the DCP.
I'm testing that at the moment for RealD 3D playback.... seems to work fine.... for the most part (no pun on Mike's name intended).

Also, Doremi have a software package called CineAsset, more open to "fiddle" with your images, but I seem to be having some colour weirdness at the Cinema with it... maybe attributable to Mike's comment about the P3 colour space... since I was feeding it Rec709 material.

DVS Clipster seems to be the bees-knees (had a demo last week) for serious DCP generation and playback for QC... quite $$ though.
Hmmm, and a lot of similarity between the hardware card and a little red-rocket...:rolleyes:

Dang, CineAsset is pretty sweet! It lets you bypass like 95% of what my tutorial drags you through for pre-processing! I'll have to test out a new DCP on that to see those color issues you mentioned.

Adil Lahoulou
08-05-2009, 02:28 AM
has anyone tested the open source dcp maker?

http://code.google.com/p/opencinematools/downloads/list

Jakebarnes
08-05-2009, 02:46 PM
Hi, I've been experimenting with the demo versions of EasyDCP (which by the way is $2000 EURO-- or almost $3000!) and Wraptor ($700 but with no support). Taking the same TIFF/DPX sequence, the DCP created by EasyDCP looks great on the digital projector in my local theater. But the Wraptor DCP from the exact same sequence (via Final Cut Pro) looks dark and color shifted. I've tried many different settings with no success. I can output a Quictime file or DVD and it looks great-- but not from Wraptor.

So it seems that EasyDCP works perfects with files set up for normal HD computer Gamma, and maybe Wraptor expects something different. Or I am doing something totally wrong with Wraptor and its settings.

Has anyone successfully used Wraptor and could they share their basic settings? What Apple OS do you use, what version of FCP and compressor? And what type of file have you converted? I have a film that needs a DCP for a festival, and I can afford the $700 Wraptor license but not the $3000 EasyDCP program.

Any advice/help would be greatly appreciated!

Jakebarnes
08-05-2009, 03:08 PM
Open Cinema Tools is basically for developers at this point. You would need engineering-level skills to to the YUV/RGB to XYZ color conversion, MXF wrapping, etc. This is not a program you can run on Windows or a Mac, feed in your image sequence and get out a DCP.

Hopefully someone will take these tools and make a program that filmmakers can use. Making DCPs should be as easy as making a DVD.

Jim Geduldick
08-05-2009, 03:10 PM
Dang, CineAsset is pretty sweet! It lets you bypass like 95% of what my tutorial drags you through for pre-processing! I'll have to test out a new DCP on that to see those color issues you mentioned.

Have you been able to test your DCP at a Studio or Theater ?

Leerafel
08-05-2009, 03:20 PM
Have you been able to test your DCP at a Studio or Theater ?

I've only been able to test my DCP made by EasyDCP in the cinema, but I am still fiddling around with CineAsset, and have not yet created a test package.

Here is an update on EasyDCP with Vista x64 - I have continued to encounter various problems running EasyDCP in Vista 64, even after changing its compatability to Win 98, which seemed to fix a lot of problems. I was unable to import audio, and thus, unable to make a complete DCP.

I contacted Fraunhofer, and they sent me a newer, although unpublished version to toy with (v1.2.2) and it seems to work fine on my 64 bit system without requiring any special treatment. Either wait for that newer version to be published, or contact Fraunhofer to get the Vista compatible version.

Russ Lasson
08-06-2009, 09:43 AM
One thing that should be considered it the aspect ratio. Digital cinema projectors have a resolution of 2048x1080, but you shouldn't encode your film at that aspect ratio or it will crop parts in the theater.

Basic resolutions for digital cinema are still based on flat and scope like film. Flat is 1998x1080 and scope is 2048x858. DCI projectors/servers are set up to handle this.

I also just want to throw it out there that I've been doing digital cinema mastering for about a year and a half now. I work with a QubeMaster Pro encoding system, Qube DCI server, and a Christie DCI projector. I can say that even with the right equipment, there are still little things that aren't exactly straight forward and can cause problems if you're not careful.

So if any of you guys need some help with a project let me know and I'll work out a good rate.

-Russ

margolisd
10-05-2009, 03:56 PM
Also, if anybody is in need of a DCP, we have digital cinema mastering service aimed at indi film makers on a tight budget. Our rates are really competitive. We're based in London but our service is worldwide. Take a look at http://www.tworoadsproductions.co.uk/Digital_Cinema_Package.html

Mark L. Pederson
10-05-2009, 05:31 PM
Offhollywood offers 4K,2K & 3D DCP mastering services.

Wolfgang Woehl
12-06-2009, 02:44 PM
has anyone tested the open source dcp maker?

http://code.google.com/p/opencinematools/downloads/list

Hi Adil, I've been experimenting with this and the related tools for a while now. Be aware that "DCP Maker" is merely a frontend for openjpeg's JPEG2000 implementation (http://www.openjpeg.org/), asdcplib (http://www.cinecert.com/asdcplib/) and 3 tiny tools to write the xml for cpl, pkl, volindex and assetmap. "opencinematools" is these 3 tiny tools and the gui, basically.

It works, too. No colorspace conversion etc. though. You need to get white reference, gamma and XYZ conversion right beforehand. Which has been a bumpy road :) Plus it crawls into a corner and silently dies if some of your assets are not exactly right. So there.

My toolchain lives on a linux box and I use ImageMagick's convert to adjust size, bit-depth and colorspace (Bruce Lindbloom's http://www.brucelindbloom.com/index.html is a great resource for color stuff. RGB<->XYZ matrices on http://www.brucelindbloom.com/index.html?Eqn_RGB_XYZ_Matrix.html).

The commercial packages (Doremi etc.) play in a different league wrt stability, user-friendliness and options. Initially being appalled at their price tags (and what post-houses charge for DCP mastering) I now think it's pretty much justified. Reliability has a price. A good QC setup has a price. No-hassle delivery has a price.
But still: If you dig into it, build some contacts with your local digital theaters too, you can use opencinematools for free. No watermarking, no length-restriction. Hey, even support some starving indie who will never ever be able to afford current prices.

I've been wondering: Is DCI/DCP a good enough platform for stuff? I have a hunch that playback servers will include more and more formats. Obviously Red's Red Ray is a useful idea. People are building all kinds of playback boxes. But some say that in all of film distribution's history players sat down, smoked a pipe and said "We'll all use this now" and that's how it grew to be a global distribution business. Which is pretty remarkable, when you think about it.

Wolfgang Woehl

ps: I don't have the faintest idea how my daughter's pig puppet's name happened to become my reduser name. Would someone red to rock care to fix this? :piggy: Much obliged.

Gunleik Groven
12-06-2009, 03:04 PM
As to easy DCP/MMOST you can feed it with jpg2000, but then you'll need to have graded for DCP, because no color/gamma convertion will be done... according to the manual.

Wraptor works ok, but you'll need an "old" FCS installation for it to work.

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=34776

Pavel Klepinin
12-13-2009, 06:04 AM
2tina, I was very interested in your post about open cinema tools. It's a great tool for DCP, at least it works :) So, we could use it for making 3D DCP. And it worked, but without any right color. I think it was the RGB->XYZ problem. Tools we used to make tiff files couldn't make real colorspace translation. Could you please show us the right way on this "bumpy road" :). Another words could you tell me the options you used for ImageMagick conversion ("I use ImageMagick's convert to adjust size, bit-depth and colorspace")?

Wolfgang Woehl
12-17-2009, 07:10 AM
Hi Pavel, a bash one-liner I'm using to convert sRGB tiffs to XYZ, drop the original's alpha channel, scale and set bit depth to 12:

for f in *tif; do
convert $f -alpha Off -resize 2048x1080 -recolor "
0.4124564 0.3575761 0.1804375
0.2126729 0.7151522 0.0721750
0.0193339 0.1191920 0.9503041" -depth 12 ../tiffs-xyz-scaled/$f;
done

Wolfgang Woehl

Martin Weiss
12-17-2009, 12:33 PM
I don't have the faintest idea how my daughter's pig puppet's name happened to become my reduser name. Would someone red to rock care to fix this? :piggy: Much obliged.
Just post your real name into this thread http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=32432

Grüße nach Minga!

Wolfgang Woehl
12-17-2009, 04:02 PM
Martin, thanks. Und Grüße zurück. Loads of snow tonight here. Which was kind of a letdown coming back from Pandora.

Pavel Klepinin
12-19-2009, 12:12 AM
2Wolfgang Woehl, Danke schön!
It works, and it works perfect. I'd also want to add that if anyone would use these tools. Never use adobe products for generating or converting tiff's. It adds specifics tags in tiff, that couldn't been recognized by other programs (e.g. image_to_j2k). Also this file image_to_j2k you should take from the original OpenJPEG200 package (http://www.openjpeg.org/), the opencinematools' file contains a tiff related error (at least now 2009-12-19 version 1.1.2). Looks like we've mentioned all the rocks on this "bumpy road". Questions are welcomed. This information is based on experiments with Dolby DSS-200 server. I hope it's also right for other servers, but i don't realy know
And the first question is mine. What about generating content. We used 3D max's tiff sequence, generated by 2 cameras. But we couldn't manage flying outside effect. I mean an effect when some object is hanging in the middle of the cinema hall. Can anyone give me advice, information or, i, don't know, book, tips and tricks of stereoscopic content :)? Or if you generate live content with 2-cameras equipment (that's more probable, see forum name :) ). What equipment can i use for stereoscopic shooting on semi-pro level?

Wolfgang Woehl
12-19-2009, 04:01 AM
Pavel,

Wrt Adobe/Tiffs: In general I'd say Adobe knows pretty much all there is to know about TIFF so it's quite likely openjpeg2000 that is to blame here. Which tiff tags did your image_to_j2k choke on? You can probably always use ImageMagick tools to align your files with image_to_j2k's expectations.

Wrt server compliance: Go upload a small DCP somewhere -- I can test on XDC Cinestore Solo G3 and Doremi DCP-2000. And yes, you could return the favor, no Dolby servers here :)

Pavel Klepinin
12-19-2009, 06:41 AM
2Wolfgang,

Adobe/Tiff:
I made a mistake it was not an error, but а warning. But I use Windows, so i couldn't suspend this message, I had to push "ok" 2 times on every single frame!!!! For every eye!!!!
This warning is
"Unknown field with tag 700 (0x2bc) ignored" and
"Unknown field with tag 34665 (0x8769) ignored."
This warning appears on hardly every opensource graphics forum (ImageMagick, LibTiff and so on). Unfortunately i've lost the right link, but someone sad that these tags contain adobe property information, so they can't be treat by opensource or something like that.

DC Servers:
Sure, I can test your projects. Upload it. If its not very big.
As about our projects, now we have no good projects. We tested it on 2 3DMax-generated images, copied 50 times :) So, we've got 2 seconds of still stereoscopic image :) But we are going to convert our logo jingle into stereo 3D, so i will send it.

fabrizio carraro
12-22-2009, 03:14 PM
2Wolfgang Woehl, Danke schön!
It works, and it works perfect. I'd also want to add that if anyone would use these tools. Never use adobe products for generating or converting tiff's. It adds specifics tags in tiff, that couldn't been recognized by other programs (e.g. image_to_j2k). Also this file image_to_j2k you should take from the original OpenJPEG200 package (http://www.openjpeg.org/), the opencinematools' file contains a tiff related error (at least now 2009-12-19 version 1.1.2). Looks like we've mentioned all the rocks on this "bumpy road". Questions are welcomed. This information is based on experiments with Dolby DSS-200 server. I hope it's also right for other servers, but i don't realy know
And the first question is mine. What about generating content. We used 3D max's tiff sequence, generated by 2 cameras. But we couldn't manage flying outside effect. I mean an effect when some object is hanging in the middle of the cinema hall. Can anyone give me advice, information or, i, don't know, book, tips and tricks of stereoscopic content :)? Or if you generate live content with 2-cameras equipment (that's more probable, see forum name :) ). What equipment can i use for stereoscopic shooting on semi-pro level?
I compared opencinematools with easyDcp. Using rgb to xyz conversion in "convert -recolor" with the same matrix mentioned above (0.4124564 0.3575761 0.1804375, etc) I got a bit less warm and less saturated colors. Then, checking on Bruce Lindbloom's matrices page I found out that that matrix is a sRGB to XYZ matrix, so no wonder why the colors were a bit different. I don't thing that as a DCP mastering tool easyDcp uses sRGB, but I have to admit that I don't know which one is the right one!
Apart from that the combination imagemagick, openjpeg and opencinematools works perfectly (even if the tiff to jpeg conversion takes ages. How did Fraunhofer managed to make it so fast?)
Furthermore: anybody managed to generate an encrypted DCP and its KDMs with opencinematools?

Mike Mazzotta
12-22-2009, 04:01 PM
I'm surprised nobody has brought up the REDRay yet. . .


I heard that Redcode & DCP are VERY similar. . . and that encoding DCP from R3D files will become easier and easier. . .

I ALSO heard that the Pro version of the REDRAY will replace MANY of the DCP servers in movie theaters, because of cost. . . and with all those new Sony Projectors going up on Regal Screens, I think that RED will completely dominate that market. ..


Of course. . . that's just ALL rumor and conjecture. :)

Jean-Charles Wolfarth
12-23-2009, 11:36 PM
Pavel & Wolfgang,

It would be great if you could release a small tutorial which describes all the steps to get a DCP package with the Opencinematools... :smile5:

I know, I know, it's a little bit of work, but I'm sure there would be plenty of people out there who would be grateful... well, at least me, I would owe you a glass of wine... :smile5:

Wolfgang Woehl
12-27-2009, 04:27 AM
Jean-Charles,
like I said: opencinematools is merely a frontend to a number of tools plus 3 tiny apps to create CPL, PKL, ASSETMAP and VOLINDEX. The windows version of opencinematools carries all the necessary tools along and offers a rudimentary gui. So for the sake of transparency here are all the required steps that you would take on a linux box in order to create a DCP.

1. Think about what kind of package you want.
A "cinema" package (24/48fps/JPEG2000-encoded picture essence 4:4:4/12bit per channel/X'Y'Z'/Sound 48khz/24bit)?
Or an MXF Interop (25fps/50i/60i/MPEG2-encoded picture essence 4:2:0/8bit/YCbCr-encoded/Rec.709 or whatever/Sound 48khz/24bit)?
The main differences being picture codec, colorspace and framerates.

2. Prepare the source.
"Cinema" package: At the end of this step you want to have a directory of whitepoint-adjusted, gamma-corrected, colorspace-converted, scaled and bit-padded tiffs that you will throw at the JPEG2000 encoder.
There's a gazillion ways to create an image sequence from your source material. Like "mplayer source -vo pnm" or "ffmpeg -i source -f image2 -vcodec tiff %06d.tif" or export from your editor. Depends on your source and to what extent the used tool lets you control its output.
On to scaling, bit-padding (12 bits per color channel required), gamma and whitepoint adjustment, colorspace conversion. Again, there's a lot of tools which can do this. An ImageMagick example for the sake of brevity:

cd tiffs;
for f in *tif; do
convert $f
-alpha Off -resize 2048x1080 -depth 12 -gamma 1.181818
-recolor
"0.4124564 0.3575761 0.1804375
0.2126729 0.7151522 0.0721750
0.0193339 0.1191920 0.9503041"
../tiffs-final/$f;
done

gets rid of a possible alpha channel, scales, pads bit-depth to 12, adjusts gamma by 1.181818 (not "sets to") and converts from sRGB to XYZ (look up http://www.brucelindbloom.com/Eqn_RGB_XYZ_Matrix.html for colorspace conversion matrices). You would use another recolor (after colorspace) for whitepoint-adjustment (look up http://www.brucelindbloom.com/index.html?Eqn_ChromAdapt.html for matrices) if needed.

MXF Interop: You want an MPEG2 elementary stream to stuff into MXF, no need for an image sequence in this case. If, for example, you have an interlaced transport stream with pixel aspect ratio 1.333 you can use ffmpeg to say
ffmpeg -i source.mts -flags +ildct+ilme -s 1920x1080 -an -sameq final.m2v
This is actually transcoding the source so you want to make sure no funky colorstuff is happening along the way. I think this is missing a pixel aspect ratio flag, too. We'll find out in due time (Had nothing but trouble with 1.333 pas on servers/projectors so that's the reason for the rescale). -an ignores audio (You want to bit-pad and resample audio from sox or any DAW. Basically you need discrete mono/48khz/24bit files. Call them something like 00_left.wav, 01_right.wav etc.)

Oh, my daughter is waking up, need to go, the other steps this evening.
Wolfgang Woehl

fabrizio carraro
12-27-2009, 09:47 AM
Tina,

I have some doubt about the gamma conversion. The way other tools (for example easydcp) make the xyz conversion is: degamma 2.4, rgb->xyz, re-gamma 2.6
Even if at the end of the chain the gamma is still changed by 0.2 (very close to 0.1818) the conversion to xyz is done on different values. Does this change the final result? Furthermore, the matrix is a sRGB to xyz matrix, but which is the official DCI matrix? I was not able to find it out.

> convert $f
> -alpha Off -resize 2048x1080 -depth 12 -gamma 1.181818
> -recolor
> "0.4124564 0.3575761 0.1804375
> 0.2126729 0.7151522 0.0721750
> 0.0193339 0.1191920 0.9503041"

Fabrizio

Wolfgang Woehl
12-27-2009, 12:52 PM
Fabrizio, wrt gamma correction: there is a difference (and it's not marginal) between degamma -> colorspace conversion -> gamma and colorspace conversion -> gamma. Only I'm not sure which method is right. Let's find out.

Wrt to sRGB -> XYZ matrix: There is no such thing as an "official DCI matrix". The matrix you'll want to use depends entirely on your source's colorspace.

btw: my name is not Tina. It's the name of my daughter's piggy puppet. And my reduser name, apparently. Don't ask :)

Wolfgang Woehl

fabrizio carraro
01-09-2010, 07:09 AM
Wolfgang, trying degamma 2.6, rgb->xyz conversion (sRGB matrix) and regamma 2.6 I visually got a result almost identical to the one obtained by easyDCP. Now to complete a completely open-source DCP package there are two issues missing:
1) a quicker way to convert to jpeg2000 (on my Macintosh 8 core easyDCP encodes fast at about 10 frames/sec, while openJpeg runs at 5 secs/frame on one processor, meaning that cutting the script in slices it would achieve about 0.7 seconds/frame, which is still quite a long time)
2) how to encrypt it? It would be enough to generate the local private/public keys (easy to do with openssl) then encrypt the MXFs (how???), and add the extra info into the XML files (how???), get a player's certificate and generate a key for it (how??)
Did somebody manage to to that? I have no idea where to look for info about that.

Fabrizio

fabrizio carraro
01-09-2010, 07:11 AM
ooops, i meant degamma 2.4 (NOT 2.6), rgb to zyx and regamma 2.6.

Wolfgang Woehl
01-09-2010, 12:19 PM
Fabrizio,
gamma of sRGB is ~ 2.2 (approximately, see http://www.brucelindbloom.com/WorkingSpaceInfo.html#Specifications, the note on sRGB gamma). While relatively small the difference to gamma decompression from 2.4 is noticeable.

Are you adapting to DCI Reference White? If not this might explain the difference to other packages.

Now the "knowledge" about this is all over the place. Some suggest to target D50 (no idea why), After Effects offers 5900K through its color management preset "DCDM X'Y'Z' (gamma 2.6) 5900K (by Adobe)" and the DCI specs say x=0.314, y=0.351 (~ 6300K).

I've written an ad hoc script to play with the numbers, see http://ruby.pastebin.com/fe99b725

Wolfgang Woehl

Wolfgang Woehl
01-09-2010, 12:39 PM
And, yeah, having image_to_j2k churn through an hour worth of tiff's for days feels more like a workcrawl rather than a practical workflow. CUDA to the rescue. One, kind-of-working, example is CUJ2K (http://cuj2k.sourceforge.net/index.html)

M Most
01-09-2010, 02:30 PM
2) how to encrypt it?

Why do you need to encrypt it?

Pavel Klepinin
01-13-2010, 06:10 AM
I've finally done windows script (.bat) for video->dcp convertion.
This script is based on some Wolfgang Woehl's researches, other post of this thread and a bit of my own experiments.

I've used some additional programs, such as:

MPlayer (http://www.mplayerhq.hu)
ImageMagick (http://www.imagemagick.org)
Open Cinema Tools (http://www.opencinematools.org)

So.

Script itself (%catalog%/script/repack.bat) as well as catalog structure are in the attachment.

Some important moments.

This script is made for 3d dcp, 1 channel sound, for output resolution of 2048x853. But you can easily modify it for your own workflow.

How to use it.

Edit %catalog%/script/repack.bat.

Set var DIRNAME as your repack directory name (it's %catalog%)
(Exc.
rem Project Directory Name
SET DIRNAME=E:\Temp\3dContent\007-Sign)

All directory names - without ending "\".


Put your audio file into %catalog%\input\audio\
Format - Wav
Depth - 24 bits
Channals - Mono
Freq - 48 kHz

Its name is given for var AUDIOINPUT
(Exc.
rem AudioFile Name
SET AUDIOINPUT=sound.wav)

Put 2 MPlayer-convertabe (uncomressed will be ok) video files for right and left eye in %catalog%\input\video\
Video will be resized to 2048x853 (edit 2 lines such as %MPLAYERDIRNAME%\mplayer -vo pnm -zoom -x 2048 -y 853 "%DIRNAME%\input\video\%VIDEOINPUTLEFT%" if you need other resolution)

Set names for vars VIDEOINPUTLEFT and VIDEOINPUTRIGHT
(Exc.
rem Video for Left Eye
SET VIDEOINPUTLEFT=Left_Eye_Render.avi
rem Video for Right Eye
SET VIDEOINPUTRIGHT=Right_Eye_Render.avi)

Set directory names for 3rd part programs
(Exc.
rem MPlayer Directory Name
SET MPLAYERDIRNAME=D:\Pak\Programs\MPlayer
rem ImageMagick Directory Name
SET IMDIRNAME=D:\Pak\Programs\ImageMagick-6.5.8-4
rem Open Cinema Tools Directory Name
SET OCTDIRNAME=D:\Pak\Programs\opencinematools)


Set other vars according to your needs
(PROJNAME - Any String - Name of your project
CONKIND - I use "test", I've used one other, but it didn't work. Need more experiments.
ANNTEXT - string - annotattion text
and so on).

Run %catalog%/script/repack.bat

Files in the %catalog%/out/ directory will be your dcp project

If everything is ok you can delete %catalog%/processing/ directory with temp files

P.S.
Any questions?

On my machine WinXP Core2Duo 2.8 GHz, 2048 Gb, 17-seconds' clip repacked in about 1 hour.

Wolfgang Woehl
01-13-2010, 01:07 PM
Hi Pavel,
your convert line doesn't provide for gamma decompression (before sRGB to XYZ) and gamma compression (after colorspace conversion) to 2.6. Is that on purpose?

Also order of parameters matters with "convert". So padding with zeroes after the "-recolor sRGB to XYZ" gives you a different result than doing so before. Have you tested the difference? I'd put the "-depth 12" before any color transformations. But then it never occurred to me to try the other way around, so there.

Right now I'm trying to wrap my mind around the "White" issue, stuff like mastering white, calibration white, white gamut, chromatic adaptation. Read an interesting paper: "SMPTE Digital Cinema White Gamut Practices Study Group Report" (SMPTE Journal, October 2009) and how a DCDM/DCP mastering process would acknowledge the problems identified by the study group and adjust.

I've realized (testing and reading the paper) that transforming to DCI calibration white (0.314, 0.351) is not right and I'm kind of close to "realizing" that doing no chromatic adaptation at all (the DCI specs suggest that the luminance headroom can accomodate a number of standard illuminants, like D65, D55) is not the right way to see your mastering whites in projection either. Have you done any testing in relation to this?

Btw: http://www.digitalcinemanamingconvention.com/ lists, well, naming conventions. Useful.

Pavel Klepinin
01-14-2010, 12:18 AM
Thnx 2 Wolfgang, fixing errors and moving on.


your convert line doesn't provide for gamma decompression (before sRGB to XYZ) and gamma compression (after colorspace conversion) to 2.6. Is that on purpose?

Nope. It's nothing, but my mistake. Looks like i've used your old script line

for f in *tif; do
convert $f -alpha Off -resize 2048x1080 -recolor "
0.4124564 0.3575761 0.1804375
0.2126729 0.7151522 0.0721750
0.0193339 0.1191920 0.9503041" -depth 12 ../tiffs-xyz-scaled/$f;
Instead of


for f in *tif; do
convert $f
-alpha Off -resize 2048x1080 -depth 12 -gamma 1.181818
-recolor
"0.4124564 0.3575761 0.1804375
0.2126729 0.7151522 0.0721750
0.0193339 0.1191920 0.9503041"
../tiffs-final/$f;

Is gamma compression/decompression can be replaced by adding "-gamma 1.181818" or it's some other thing?



Also order of parameters matters with "convert". So padding with zeroes after the "-recolor sRGB to XYZ" gives you a different result than doing so before. Have you tested the difference? I'd put the "-depth 12" before any color transformations. But then it never occurred to me to try the other way around, so there.
Really? I didn't know that. I thought it was just a set of parameters order-independent. So i can fix it shortly.
But as for testing the difference.
Here's a trouble. How are you comparing images. How are you playing dcp on computer. Demo version of easyDCP (which i use) shows the wrong colors (as if there is no need in colorspace conversion). So, i compare colors by playing dcp on Dolby DSS-200 server with original image/video on my notebook. It's not the right measurement. I think it should be some other way. What programs/tools are you using?

And the question about all this white staff. Is this white-correction depends on server/screen/video type and so on, or it's universal and finding the magic numbers will bring some kind of magic workflow?

Wolfgang Woehl
01-14-2010, 04:21 AM
Is gamma compression/decompression can be replaced by adding "-gamma 1.181818" or it's some other thing?

Colorspace conversion has to be done with linear light numbers. Assuming your source material is sRGB (with a standard gamma of approximately 2.2) you would have to


convert srgb.tiff -depth 12 -gamma 0.454545 -recolor "$srgb_to_xyz_matrix" -gamma 2.6


1 / 2.2 = ~ 0.454545, so applying this value with convert you "decode"/"decompress" the 2.2 gamma and get linear color values.

As a final step -- /after/ any other operation (colorspace conversion, maybe chromatic adaptation) -- you apply the DCI spec'd gamma of 2.6.



How are you comparing images. How are you playing dcp on computer. Demo version of easyDCP (which i use) shows the wrong colors (as if there is no need in colorspace conversion). So, i compare colors by playing dcp on Dolby DSS-200 server with original image/video on my notebook. It's not the right measurement. I think it should be some other way. What programs/tools are you using?

Like you say: It's not correct but if you don't have a calibrated display you're pretty much left with subjective judgement.


And the question about all this white staff. Is this white-correction depends on server/screen/video type and so on, or it's universal and finding the magic numbers will bring some kind of magic workflow?

Here's a quote from the study group report:

"Regarding a specific white point for digital cinema, there is wide-spread disagreement across the production, exhibition and manufacturing communities."

From the data and proposals in the report I take it that targeting DCI's calibration white (0.314, 0.351) is not the right thing to do. But the stuff about white gamut and their proposed virtual white hasn't sunk in enough yet to know the numbers for a chromatic adaptation from sRGB's D65 to DCI projection.
It has been suggested that DCI spec'd projectors accomodate a range of source white points but fact is that a white out of mastering isn't necessarily reproduced at the projector's end.

It'd be great if M Most could chime in and share his experience and practices, much appreciated (Would also be great to learn more about DCP content protection and encryption, of course. Mike, your question seemed to suggest the approach was twisted?)

Pavel Klepinin
01-15-2010, 05:28 AM
Remade script according to Wolfgang's remarks.


And, yeah, having image_to_j2k churn through an hour worth of tiff's for days feels more like a workcrawl rather than a practical workflow. CUDA to the rescue. One, kind-of-working, example is CUJ2K (http://cuj2k.sourceforge.net/index.html)

As I understood, CUJ2K makes dcp-incompatible j2k files, they are needed of further transformation, that minimizes the time profit, am I right?

Wolfgang Woehl
01-17-2010, 04:31 AM
Pavel,
apparently the problem is related to markers in cuj2k's output (QCD). I've contacted the authors (student project at University of Stuttgart) to see what can be done. Anyway, the project demonstrates that an acceleration with commodity hardware (GPUs) is feasible. Something will come up.

Another option would be dedicated boards like the intoPIXs (see http://www.intopix.com/products/index/index/id/17/lang/en). I'm looking into prices etc.

Dan Hammond
01-20-2010, 09:52 AM
I thought you may find interest in a windows based software solution to create DCP's from Doremi Cinema called CineAsset. A free trial download is available at http://www.doremicinema.com/cineasset.html

Chris Perry
01-22-2010, 06:14 AM
Hi all. This thread has been immensely helpful and fascinating.

Yesterday I tried creating a Linux command-line script to execute the entire pipeline. I used Pavel's bat file as a model. We had to compile (and re-compile) lots of things (openjpeg, asdcplib, etc) but eventually I got a pkl.xml file out the other side.

I have a few questions/comments:

1) audio. It seems that asdcp-test is used to create the audio.mxf file from single-channel 24bit WAV files. There don't appear to be command-line args to identify the number of audio channels or their location (aka L, R, sub, etc). How do we keep full control over the audio during this process, especially when we have stereo and/or 5.1 surround sound?

2) Previewing the final DCP. This has come up a few times on the thread. The corrected colors look strange on my computer LCD, of course. Is the only way to see how they ultimately look to take the DCP to a theater?

3) More on colors. If my source material was finaled on a Mac, do I need to use a different gamma/color correction than the one presented in this thread?

4) Time. Converting to TIFFs and then to jpegs does take time. However, once the images have been extracted from the original movie file itself, the process is easily run in parallel. We're planning to distribute the conversion to a cluster of linux boxes, hopefully that will help. If we create any tools that facilitate this, we'll certainly share them.

Thanks in advance for your input.

- chris

Pavel Klepinin
01-22-2010, 07:53 AM
1) audio. It seems that asdcp-test is used to create the audio.mxf file from single-channel 24bit WAV files. There don't appear to be command-line args to identify the number of audio channels or their location (aka L, R, sub, etc). How do we keep full control over the audio during this process, especially when we have stereo and/or 5.1 surround sound?
As i understood, asdcp-test is made for multichannel audio (5.1 i think). You feed asdcp-test by several wav single-channel files. Each for L, R, sub and etc. And it generates real multichannel audio.
So, if you need to make stereo audio, you should make in your audio editing program 2->5.1 conversion. And render 6 single-channel wav-files. These 6 files appear to be command-line args for asdcp-test.


2) Previewing the final DCP. This has come up a few times on the thread. The corrected colors look strange on my computer LCD, of course. Is the only way to see how they ultimately look to take the DCP to a theater?

It's my big question too. I use easyDCP player, but demo version shows wrong colors. I don't know how to check it on computer.

M Most
01-22-2010, 09:29 AM
It's my big question too. I use easyDCP player, but demo version shows wrong colors. I don't know how to check it on computer.

The simplest way is to pay for easyDCP Player. A licensed version has a built in color space converter to allow you to convert from X'Y'Z' to RGB in real time.

Pavel Klepinin
01-22-2010, 11:47 PM
The simplest way is to pay for easyDCP Player. A licensed version has a built in color space converter to allow you to convert from X'Y'Z' to RGB in real time.

The thing is, that making correct DCP pipeline is not about making money for me. As i work as sysadmin in cinema theater. So it's just for fun and i'm looking for zero-cost tools. And "zero cost" usually is an opposite to "the simplest way", unfortunately :)

M Most
01-23-2010, 10:15 AM
The thing is, that making correct DCP pipeline is not about making money for me. As i work as sysadmin in cinema theater. So it's just for fun and i'm looking for zero-cost tools. And "zero cost" usually is an opposite to "the simplest way", unfortunately :)

I understand you "want" something for free, and I understand you want to do this "just for fun." But not everything is free. If you want to play baseball, you need a glove. If you want to play hockey, you need a stick, skates, and a lot of pads. If you want to use editing software, you need a computer, even if you get the software for free by stealing it. I would classify all of the above as things one might do "just for fun," but they all require spending a little bit of money. Why is what you're talking about any different?

Pavel Klepinin
01-23-2010, 11:36 AM
I understand you "want" something for free, and I understand you want to do this "just for fun." But not everything is free. If you want to play baseball, you need a glove. If you want to play hockey, you need a stick, skates, and a lot of pads. If you want to use editing software, you need a computer, even if you get the software for free by stealing it. I would classify all of the above as things one might do "just for fun," but they all require spending a little bit of money.
I think there is some misundestanding of purposes. If i'd be wanted "simple way", i would buy easyDCP converter and do no things with Open Cinema Tools. So this thread would contist of just about one post "Buy easyDCP and be glad". But my main goal is to make ZERO-COST pipeline (this is the challenge, to build it, not to convert clips), and with help of OCT it's nearly done. And for secondary tools as controlling (not transforming) middlepipe colorcorrection i should use paid software? Do i?


understand you "want" something for free, and I understand you want to do this "just for fun."
Are you speaking slightingly of word "want"? Not "want" but make. I try to make this pipeline and share it among anyone who "want" it.


If you want to play baseball, you need a glove. If you want to play hockey, you need a stick, skates, and a lot of pads. If you want to use editing software, you need a computer, even if you get the software for free by stealing it. I would classify all of the above as things one might do "just for fun," but they all require spending a little bit of money. Why is what you're talking about any different?
Yes, there is a big difference. You are talking about real things, not information. Information tends to be paid unmonetary. See 'Free' by Chris Anderson.

ps Why did you mentioned stealing software?

M Most
01-23-2010, 12:54 PM
Yes, there is a big difference. You are talking about real things, not information. Information tends to be paid unmonetary. See 'Free' by Chris Anderson.

I don't see how software is any different than hard goods (like baseball gloves and hockey sticks) other than the fact that the Internet has made it "easy" to get without paying for it. As for Chris Anderson, I wonder how many people would ever have read what he has to say if he didn't have a magazine that is printed and sold to put it in. If Wired only had an Internet presence - as he often suggests for others - he likely wouldn't be making a living from it. But I digress...


ps Why did you mentioned stealing software?

I mentioned it in the context of editing tools. You need a computer - which is something you probably have to buy - and you need software, which, depending on who you are, is either something you buy or something you download. Which, if it is a commercial program like, oh, Final Cut Pro, is stealing. Thus illustrating my point about the nature of the way a lot of people look at software and their entitlement to it. Not necessarily you, but many others.

By the way, one of the stated goals and purposes of the DCI specification was that everything in it be based on open source tools and methodologies. The intent was always to make it possible for anyone to build both DCPs and the tools to create them if they wanted to. There is nothing in the spec that is proprietary to any one company, and that was quite intentional.

jamie parry
01-23-2010, 01:23 PM
I think the more technical guys here are talking about "playing" for education and amusement
if you want to play baseball presumably you can make a bat (from a stick)
grab a ball ( a pine cone) and catch with your bare hands....
then if you like that and you want to make yourself a better player you can take 2 paths.
1
if you are interested in the GAME result you buy/borrow better tools-bat ball glove
2
if you are interested in the mechanics of the game you can learn how to make better tools (yes for free except the TIME it takes to make)

i've done both things in the past and swapped over between ways of thinking.
if you want stuff good and fast and NOW you'll probably have to buy it
if you want to learn how something works you don't.

it's a philosophical thing i think. very deep for a camera forum...
and the geeks shall inherit the earth.
j

Wolfgang Woehl
01-23-2010, 04:20 PM
1) audio. It seems that asdcp-test is used to create the audio.mxf file from single-channel 24bit WAV files. There don't appear to be command-line args to identify the number of audio channels or their location (aka L, R, sub, etc). How do we keep full control over the audio during this process, especially when we have stereo and/or 5.1 surround sound?

Solved. asdcplib's author John Hurst says:

"The order of channels in the file (when using the asdcp-test program) is the same as the order of the files on the command line. For a 5.1 track, the order should be L,R,C,LFE,LS,RS. asdcp-test can also use a directory as input. In this case, the files are ordered alphabetically. As an example, I often use numbers in the filenames to make the order correct:

$ ls pcm_files | sort
sync_test_00_l.wav
sync_test_01_r.wav
sync_test_02_c.wav
sync_test_03_lfe.wav
sync_test_04_ls.wav
sync_test_05_rs.wav
$ asdcp-test -c pcm.wav pcm_files"

For 7.1 see DCI specs 1.2 section 3.3.3 ("Channel mapping")


2) Previewing the final DCP. This has come up a few times on the thread. The corrected colors look strange on my computer LCD, of course. Is the only way to see how they ultimately look to take the DCP to a theater?

We have to keep in mind that a DCP is color transformed and gamma encoded for a specific display device (Xenon light DLP projector, 12bit primary range) which transforms the material back again to RGB. Hence, I think, the idea of "checking" a DCP on fluorescent backlit, 8bit LCDs with a relatively limited gamut is somewhat flawed. A DCP player like easyDCP can give you the colors you saw in your grading suite, at best. Which tells you zero about how they'll turn out on the theatre screen. But: Comparing these color impressions becomes part of a feedback loop and that in turn allows you to "judge" that transform.


3) More on colors. If my source material was finaled on a Mac, do I need to use a different gamma/color correction than the one presented in this thread?

I want to know, too. I think, with their latest OS release, Apple chose to align with the rest of the world wrt gamma. But it shouldn't matter as RGB colorspaces have well-defined gamma encodings. Does FCP adjust gamma on the way out to produce standard gamma encoded material?


4) Time. Converting to TIFFs and then to jpegs does take time. However, once the images have been extracted from the original movie file itself, the process is easily run in parallel. We're planning to distribute the conversion to a cluster of linux boxes, hopefully that will help. If we create any tools that facilitate this, we'll certainly share them.

Yes, please do, great. Also look into CUDA stuff. This allows for very cost-effective encoding solutions, based on off-the-shelf GPUs (cuj2k was mentioned, currently it can't handle 12bit/channel material plus it splits material into > 1 tiles, but that might be fixed soon)

Wolfgang Woehl

Chris Perry
01-23-2010, 08:15 PM
Outstanding, thank you Wolfgang! I didn't realize that asdcp-test was so aligned with the spec that the order of audio files would match the channel mapping listed there. But I just confirmed, and the 5.1 order you passed on is straight from section 3.3.3.


Does FCP adjust gamma on the way out to produce standard gamma encoded material?I'm not sure what FCP does on export. My film (http://www.bitfilms.com/tower37.html) was pure CG, and in my transfers to HDCAM and other formats the colors have been preserved very well. I will offer my visual report once I've seen the result of this DCP process on-screen; I would think an incorrect gamma problem will be rather obvious and will look for it.

For those interested, here are more details about OS X 10.6 and gamma: http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3712

- chris

fabrizio carraro
01-26-2010, 02:19 PM
Why do you need to encrypt it?

The reason of encrypting it is to understand the whole process, with the final goal to write an utility able to get a key from a DCP workstation (such as Clipster) and generate new keys for all the servers that need to play the feature. Of course the DCP workstation has to give such an utility also other information (but this is what I would like to understand).

Chris Perry
02-02-2010, 07:23 PM
Just as a heads up to the readers of this forum: I'm chronicling my quest to make a DCP completely with open source tools here: http://bitfilms.blogspot.com/search/label/DCP

The posts on this thread have been immensely useful this far (thanks)!

New questions from my most recent test on a Doremi DCP-2000:

Does anyone know what tag in the PKL (I'm assuming) controls the name that appears in the Doremi ingester program? When I ingested my test DCP today, it showed the UUID of the PKL instead of a nicer name.

Can any Doremi CineLister users report on whether the newly-ingested DCP should appear in the elements list right away, or if a restart is required?

Thanks again

- chris

Wolfgang Woehl
02-06-2010, 02:58 AM
Chris,
try the <AnnotationText> tag.

Chris Perry
02-06-2010, 10:01 AM
Will do.

Next problem: my frames are going from a QuickTime movie file to pngs (via mplayer), then tiffs (via convert), then j2c (via image_to_j2k). I just discovered that the PNGs being made by mplayer actually change based on the image content! All black frames are dumped as 1-bit PNGs, with 1 channel. Black and white frames are dumped as greyscale. Color frames are dumped as RGB.

All the steps of the pipeline handle these varying types of PNGs just fine, except that at the end, at the mxf stage, asdcp-test recognizes the inconsistency in the j2c files and barfs. In other words, the conversion through tiff and jpeg2000 seems to preserve the different number of samples.

What I really would love to do is force all the frames into RGB at any one of these steps. "convert" doesn't seem to want to allow that, at least from my look through the command-line options. I'll see what mplayer has to offer, though ideally I don't want to have to sit through that whole process again.

Suggestions for how to force these images to 3-channels would be appreciated. Thanks!

- chris

Wolfgang Woehl
02-06-2010, 12:07 PM
Chris,

you might want to use ffmpeg instead of mplayer's brain-damaged png output. Or use mplayer's targa output. Or tell ImageMagick's convert to "-type TrueColor" with the right -depth parameter.

Pavel Klepinin
02-07-2010, 01:23 AM
Next problem: my frames are going from a QuickTime movie file to pngs (via mplayer), then tiffs (via convert), then j2c (via image_to_j2k). I just discovered that the PNGs being made by mplayer actually change based on the image content! All black frames are dumped as 1-bit PNGs, with 1 channel. Black and white frames are dumped as greyscale. Color frames are dumped as RGB.

I've used film->png conversion at first, but, i don't really remember why, i replaced png by ppm. PNG is a better format in terms of size for exc., but ppm works well with different kinds of images, i've tested on black-white, grayscale and color images, it generates equal size images. As i understand it keeps the right bitdepth. And it generates the right mxf.

So why don't you use ppm instead of png. If it is a matter of size, you will delete temp images when it's done.

Chris Perry
02-07-2010, 05:52 AM
For now, Wolfgang's "-type TrueColor" option on convert seems to be working, but I'll keep both recommendations in mind as I forge ahead!

- chris

Chris Perry
02-08-2010, 04:38 PM
Well if it isn't one step it's another. I find mplayer's PNG export to be completely unreliable and basically unpredictable. Wolfgang warned me! When I run it on my whole movie, it messes up the colors (switching R for B it seems). When I run it on a subsequence, it makes perfect PNGs. So I tried ffmpeg instead, but the PNGs it creates are highly irregular (I suspect it is interleaving RGB when other tools expect them not to be, or vice versa). Any ffmpeg experts out there know the magic command-line tricks to output the channels differently?

Also, it seems like a huge weakness of mplayer and ffmpeg that they cannot reliably output a single frame synced in number with the entire film. What I mean is this: ffmpeg CAN output a range of frames starting at time X, but it numbers them 1, 2, ... N even if the first frame exported is, say, frame 1000. Too bad - it hampers my ability to run this export in parallel.

Thanks in advance for ffmpeg output suggestions regarding PNG. I'm also exploring other image formats as alternatives.

- chris

Pavel Klepinin
02-10-2010, 07:18 AM
Why don't you use mplayer->PPM ?


Also, it seems like a huge weakness of mplayer and ffmpeg that they cannot reliably output a single frame synced in number with the entire film. What I mean is this: ffmpeg CAN output a range of frames starting at time X, but it numbers them 1, 2, ... N even if the first frame exported is, say, frame 1000. Too bad - it hampers my ability to run this export in parallel
I don't think it would be easy to find such software. Maybe you can make mplayers export to different folders frames from 0001 to 000N each and then moving and renaming files in one folder?

Chris Perry
02-10-2010, 08:10 AM
Why don't you use mplayer->PPM ?
It turns out that with a single-video-stream QT movie, ffmpeg dumps compressed-but-lossless PNGs just fine. I will keep the PPM suggestion in mind, however.

I don't think it would be easy to find such software. Maybe you can make mplayers export to different folders frames from 0001 to 000N each and then moving and renaming files in one folder?
Yes, I considered this. I think that ffmpeg's -ss and -t options would allow for dumping, say, 1-second chunks to different folders, named accordingly. Then a simple script could rename them and stuff them together. Or, since this is really just one of the inputs to the process, we could use symbolic links to point to the real files.

- chris

Sebastiano Melmoth
02-11-2010, 02:13 AM
Hello everybody.
I've been silently lurking this thread for a while, trying to learn my way in the world of DCP creation.
I happen to work in the digital cinema support field, so I have the opportunity to test the content on various server systems. To make a long story short, I succesfully created a small test clip, using open cinema tools, and starting from a set of 32bit TIFF files generated for me by a friend with After Effects (using color space XYZ). The DCP is perfectly working, but the strange thing is it seems the color depth of the frames has been reduced to 8bit during the wrapping to MXF. I say this because:
a) the same TIFFs were used with Fraunhofer EasyDCP creator and the video colors displayed correctly
b) I inspected the J2K files (created with image_to_j2k) with OPJViewer, and they seem to be ok.
I checked the options in asdcp_test, but I couldn't find anything related to color depth...

Any hints?

P.S.: Sorry for having hijacked the thread, but I thought this problem was related to the argument, and I've been following you for a while...

Wolfgang Woehl
02-11-2010, 03:32 PM
Sebastiano, "a set of 32bit TIFF files" would suggest an 8 bit per component plus alpha channel file, I guess, so that might be funky. But this doesn't explain your varied results as asdcp-test would complain about non-12-bit-3-channel material.

You seing banding?

Sunish Issac
02-11-2010, 09:14 PM
Another lurker here, a cine exhibitor at a remote place in India. Professionally I'm an electronics engineer with software and embedded system experience.

For a long time, to be precise, since May 2009 I've been looking at developing an end to end open source system from creating DCPs to exhibiting via an open server hardware. It all happened when my choice was limited to Qube and UFO, who's monopolized the indian film distribution/exhibition system I plan to set up a website with my ideas and would appreciate help from like minded people out here.
Has anyone built a server from scratch and is there any reference design ?

Pavel Klepinin
02-11-2010, 10:39 PM
Hello everybody.
I've been silently lurking this thread for a while, trying to learn my way in the world of DCP creation.
I happen to work in the digital cinema support field, so I have the opportunity to test the content on various server systems. To make a long story short, I succesfully created a small test clip, using open cinema tools, and starting from a set of 32bit TIFF files generated for me by a friend with After Effects (using color space XYZ). The DCP is perfectly working, but the strange thing is it seems the color depth of the frames has been reduced to 8bit during the wrapping to MXF. I say this because:
a) the same TIFFs were used with Fraunhofer EasyDCP creator and the video colors displayed correctly
b) I inspected the J2K files (created with image_to_j2k) with OPJViewer, and they seem to be ok.
I checked the options in asdcp_test, but I couldn't find anything related to color depth...

Any hints?

P.S.: Sorry for having hijacked the thread, but I thought this problem was related to the argument, and I've been following you for a while...

Maybe you can post a single 32-Bit's TIFF somewhere so we can "try in at home"?


using color space XYZ
You mean X'Y'Z' space, do you?

Sebastiano Melmoth
02-12-2010, 02:55 AM
Hi Pavel and Wolfgang. I was a bit in a hurry, and reading my post again I see I've been pretty unclear :)
Of course with 32bit Tiff I was meaning 32 bit per channel (float) source, or a 24bpp tiff... And the color space is DCDM X'Y'Z'. Hope it is more clear now.

The funny thing is the source tiff were the same, but the video made with EasyDCP is perfect, the one made with opencinema tools suffers of a form of banding... Even if the colors are mainly similar between the two.

Here (http://www.easy-share.com/1909271756/tiff.7z) you can download three source frames of the clip. It is a very simple animation of a blurred text, with a very bright (>1 RGB value) color.


Thank you both for your support.

Sebastiano

Pavel Klepinin
02-12-2010, 06:34 AM
Hi Pavel and Wolfgang. I was a bit in a hurry, and reading my post again I see I've been pretty unclear :)
Of course with 32bit Tiff I was meaning 32 bit per channel (float) source, or a 24bpp tiff... And the color space is DCDM X'Y'Z'. Hope it is more clear now.

The funny thing is the source tiff were the same, but the video made with EasyDCP is perfect, the one made with opencinema tools suffers of a form of banding... Even if the colors are mainly similar between the two.

Here (http://www.easy-share.com/1909271756/tiff.7z) you can download three source frames of the clip. It is a very simple animation of a blurred text, with a very bright (>1 RGB value) color.


Thank you both for your support.

Sebastiano

Here (http://rapidshare.com/files/349633609/out.zip.html) is DCP project from your tifs i compiled by OpenCinema Tools with my bat-file. I can't really test on DCP server in a few days, but EasyDCP player shows the right colors and right colordepth. As for my monitor and eyes :)

2 Sunish Issac.

I have a question.
What is the main goal of your project?
To built a server (linux computer) that can convert film to DCP project or to play DCP projects?
If it's a converter it should convert realtime or what conversion time would be accepable?

Sebastiano Melmoth
02-12-2010, 07:22 AM
Thank you Pavel.
My movie, when viewed with EasyDCP Player, looks identical to yours, so in the end we used the same process to create it.
When viewed at the cinema it looks wrong. On the other side, the project assembled with EasyDCP creator looks bad in EasyDCP player, but displays correctly at the cinema (doremi DCP20000+barco DP2000). I'm confused.

This project is just for learning purpose, geared at a better knowledge of the tecnology involved. But I must say I also need to create some DCP every now and then, so if I cannot develop a consistent workflow with open tools (which I'd prefer), I'll have to switch to EasyDCP creator. I even tried Doremi cineasset, but it's really slow compared to fraunhofer software, and crashes a lot. At least in my quick tests.

Sebastiano Melmoth
02-18-2010, 01:06 AM
Just a small note. I noticed the file created by EasyDCP is smaller than the one created by opencinema tools, of course always starting from the same set of tiffs. Maybe it uses a better solution for the compression to j2c (it's even much faster...).

Love
02-24-2010, 05:31 AM
Hi Wolfgang
U describe the use of opencinema tools to creating DCP.
I have some quesyion in them
1.How to use Open cinema tools for MXF interop (MPEG DCP)
2.Size of JPEG DCP is much higher in the compare of Easy DCP Or Doremi cine asset Package
3. Can we reduce the size of MXF which we create from "asdcp-test".
Thanks
Love

Pavel Klepinin
03-02-2010, 01:39 AM
Check Wolfgang's http://wiki.github.com/wolfgangw/digital_cinema_tools/ for a very usefull information.

ArtReaktor
03-07-2010, 04:26 AM
Hello everybody!
I'm working at theatre chain in Kiev, Ukraine.
Thanks to Wolfgang and Pavel I have compiled my firs DCP! I tested it on CHRISTIE digital projector with success.
But second reel is a big problem. It's 4 minutes chocolate commercial.
I'm using Pavel's pipeline. It works just fine, EasyDCP player play it correctly, but CHRISTIE projector doesn't accept reel. Any suggestions?

ArtReaktor
03-07-2010, 04:41 AM
Also I discovered that ImageMagic comand line should contain -type truecolor before output image name.
If your movie contains any completely black frame ImageMagic produce 1-component *.tif. After j2c conversion asdcp-test brings error: unexpected number of components 1 with this file. So, your command line should looks like:

convert "img.ppm" -alpha Off -depth 12 -gamma 0.454545 -recolor "0.4124564 0.3575761 0.1804375 0.2126729 0.7151522 0.0721750 0.0193339 0.1191920 0.9503041" -gamma 2.6 -type truecolor "img.tif"

Other question is how to obtain j2c-sequence with After Effects and J2K plug-in (http://www.fnordware.com/j2k/)
When I trying render j2c-sequence After Effects just stops after first frame. It produce 0 Kb file.

Pavel Klepinin
03-07-2010, 05:14 AM
But second reel is a big problem. It's 4 minutes chocolate commercial.
I'm using Pavel's pipeline. It works just fine, EasyDCP player play it correctly, but CHRISTIE projector doesn't accept reel. Any suggestions?
I had a numbers of fails, when DCP works fine EasyDCP player, but it doesn't on my Server. The problem was in my script - some errors in "if". It caused by not fillin' all the script vars. Did you fill all of the script variables?

Christopher Lowden
03-07-2010, 02:59 PM
I know that no one here has mac experience with opencinematools, but has anyone tried? I am really stumbling to compile and make the macosx version. I have no unix experience beyond cd ls ./compile and fsck and none of the above have helped me make the opencinematools install. I have read the README but without understanding what it really means. Please help. Many thanks for this very instructive thread.

Chris Perry
03-09-2010, 05:04 PM
Hi all. As promised I've posted my method on how to create a DCP with open source tools (http://bitfilms.blogspot.com/2010/02/making-dcp-entirely-with-open-source.html). Many thanks to those on this thread for their help and guidance.

- chris

fabrizio carraro
03-12-2010, 04:06 PM
Hi Wolfgang
U describe the use of opencinema tools to creating DCP.
I have some quesyion in them
1.How to use Open cinema tools for MXF interop (MPEG DCP)
...
Thanks
Love

This is something very interesting. Most of us managed in some way to produce acceptable DCPs, but at the expense of a very long processing time (in my case 2 secs for "convert", 8 seconds for the jpeg2000 conversion, plus the other things about 11 seconds each frame for each single CPU). But sometimes the original material is not worth a 250Mb jpeg2000 encoding.
All DCP servers (I think) support also MPEG2 mxf interop, which as far as I know is a fixed 80Mits/sec mxf wrapped mpeg2. It has been widely used for trailers, even if now trailers and ads (and other "alternative content") is more and more encoded as a normal jpeg2000 encoded DCP.
Who knows how to produce such a thing using open source tools? Did somebody try to actually play it on a server?
What about audio? In any case I imagine the encoding time should be faster than the 11 seconds/frame for cpu I need to encode into jpeg2000.
Any suggestion very appreciated!

Wolfgang Woehl
03-13-2010, 07:01 AM
Fabrizio, yes, MPEG2 MXF Interop makes sense for a lot of stuff. 8 bpc/4:2:0/35Mbit/s material doesn't benefit from 12 bpc/250Mbit/s padding. The encoding is cheap or even just a re-wrap. 25p/25i, too (at least on XDC G3 -- which is still a machine in its infancy, btw -- I don't know if this, framerates, is valid on *all* servers).

Basically you wrap an MPEG2 elementary stream in MXF, same with audio, write the required (pretty much identical) DCP infrastructure. Done.

wrt opencinematools, there's a catch: OCT won't do it for you. Wouldn't be hard, mind you, it's just not implemented.

So back to handwriting it is. Use asdcplib to create uuid's and hashes (-u and -t switches), find out frame duration of your material and put these in cpl/pkl/assetmap templates. Yeah, what a hassle, isn't it? But it works and ingest/playback work just fine. Gamma will need adapting.

Another catch I've ran into was fast-paced 25i material: the XDC's motion adaptive deinterlacing just didn't turn out to be good enough. The film would have died that way so we played back from a tiny HD box. Deinterlacing incredibly good, everyone happy. So there.

fabrizio carraro
03-13-2010, 03:23 PM
Thanks Wolfgang for your invaluable suggestions. Immediately I started working, so I understood that:
- ffmpeg can convert to a .m2v video that "asdcp-test -c" can handle without complains. I imagine I should not use the "-L" option. Must I produce the mpeg2 stream at 80Mbit/sec or it really does not matter?
- I can read the uuid of the mxf produced by asdcp-test using the -i -H options
- I can write all the other xml files using scripts, generating uuids and calculating
hashes in the way you explained
- mkcpl and the others dont work and complain that ESS_MPEG2_VES is
not supported.
- Only something I miss: the xml templates. I've used jpeg2000 templates as an
exercise, where can I find an example?

Furthermore, looking into the xml's structure, I noticed that there is no hash for
the pkl (and assetmap too), so that is can be edited without any complain by the DCP server. Is there any reason for that? Maybe having an hash for everything else made it redundant?
Last thing: who knows if the demo easyDcpPlayer (that only plays 30 seconds) can play mpeg2 mxf interop DCPs?
Thanks again.

Wolfgang Woehl
03-14-2010, 12:05 PM
Fabrizio, the hassle to manually pack up MPEG2 material for a DCP bothered me. I stared at asdcplib and opencinematools code. asdcplib provides everything that's needed: MPEG2 reader/writer etc. and the patches for opencinematools turned out to be quite simple. Tested on linux only, works fine. I'll get in touch with Marc Vandenbosch to see if they need fixes etc.

In the meantime the patch is up on http://github.com/wolfgangw/digital_cinema_tools. To apply download http://opencinematools.googlecode.com/files/opencinematools-1.1.2-src.zip and the patch (http://github.com/wolfgangw/digital_cinema_tools/archives/master), put them next to each other in a temp dir, unzip oct and say
$ cat opencinematools-mpeg2_support.diff | patch -p0



- ffmpeg can convert to a .m2v video that "asdcp-test -c" can handle without complains. I imagine I should not use the "-L" option. Must I produce the mpeg2 stream at 80Mbit/sec or it really does not matter?
Our XDC G3 is spec'd for MPEG2 MP@HL and up to 160 Mbps. Where's the 80Mbps coming from? Anyway, maximum should matter, that's why they call it that, right?

- Only something I miss: the xml templates. I've used jpeg2000 templates as an exercise, where can I find an example?
Use any simple cpl, pkl, assetmap to start with.

Furthermore, looking into the xml's structure, I noticed that there is no hash for the pkl (and assetmap too), so that is can be edited without any complain by the DCP server. Is there any reason for that? Maybe having an hash for everything else made it redundant?
Think of a cpl as another asset next to images, audio and subtitles -- it defines the content. A composition might exclude specific assets (or parts of assets, for that matter) of a DCP distribution and is supposed to not be fiddled with after authoring. Its validity is verified with a digest/hash (and optionally with a signature). No need to do that for a pkl which only lists assets.

Terrence Meiczinger
03-21-2010, 08:30 AM
Has anyone successfully created an mpeg DCP package? I've attempted this on a Dolby SS100 without much luck, it complains the video track is corrupted.

I extracted an existing DCP from a screen ad and re-packaged it using the open source tools and it worked fine, so I'm fairly confident the MXF and XML process is ok. I've additionally modified opencinematools to write the digicine headers for the Dolby.

For my mpeg test, I downloaded an H.264 trailer and ran it through ffmpeg:

ffmpeg -y -i testclip.m4v -flags +ildct+ilme -s 1920x1080 -an -sameq testclip.m2v
ffmpeg -y -i testclip.m4v testclip.wav

asdcp-test -v -c testclip.video.mxf testclip.m2v
asdcp-test -v -c testclip.audio.mxf testclip.wav

mkcpl --annotation "TESTCLIP" --title "TESTCLIP" --kind trailer testclip.video.mxf testclip.audio.mxf > testclip.cpl.xml
mkpkl --annotation "TESTCLIP" --issuer "tjm" testclip.video.mxf testclip.audio.mxf testclip.cpl.xml > testclip.pkl.xml
mkmap --annotation "TESTCLIP" --issuer "tjm" testclip.video.mxf testclip.audio.mxf testclip.cpl.xml testclip.pkl.xml

If anyone has insight, it would be appreciated. Also, on a side note has anyone seen the following warning when creating an audio mxf?

asdcp-test -c testclip.strk.mxf testclip.wav
WARNING: Last frame read was short, PCM input is possibly not frame aligned.
Expecting 8000 bytes, got 7552.

Thanks!

Wolfgang Woehl
03-21-2010, 11:43 AM
Terrence, just a wild guess: Assuming your testclip.m4v (H.264) is really interlaced you might be running into a field-order issue. Field order in the testfile might be inconsistent, flagged incorrectly etc. Try ffmpeg's -top switch (with 1/0 for top/bottom field first or -1 for autosense if the testfile has both).

asdcplib's warning wrt PCM not being frame aligned I've seen too. The case doesn't seem to have code consequences in asdcplib's writer infrastructure. Which makes me think that the audio MXF will not be aligned to a frame boundary if the source PCM isn't.

Like: asdcplib doesn't correct the problem. And it's not a problem on most servers. Might be on some, though.

Wolfgang Woehl
03-21-2010, 02:20 PM
We used 3D max's tiff sequence, generated by 2 cameras. But we couldn't manage flying outside effect. I mean an effect when some object is hanging in the middle of the cinema hall. Can anyone give me advice, information or, i, don't know, book, tips and tricks of stereoscopic content :)

Pavel, hi, had your question stored in the back of my mind and just bumped into "Stereoscopic Rendering in Blender" (http://www.noeol.de/s3d/). Math and blender workflow.

Pavel Klepinin
03-22-2010, 12:56 AM
Pavel, hi, had your question stored in the back of my mind and just bumped into "Stereoscopic Rendering in Blender" (http://www.noeol.de/s3d/). Math and blender workflow.
Thnx very much. It looks really useful. I'll try to make some parallax in 3D Render. I used to do it in After Effects, hardly without correct math understanding.
Looking forward for an efficient weekend :)
BTW, for russian-speaking users we've made a theme (http://cinemaprofs.ru/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2) on our forum (http://cinemaprofs.ru/).

Sulio Pulev
03-27-2010, 07:04 AM
i had a numbers of fails, when dcp works fine easydcp player, but it doesn't on my server. The problem was in my script - some errors in "if". It caused by not fillin' all the script vars. Did you fill all of the script variables?

Ишь ты , нахаляву захотел. В етом деле халявы не бывает тем более в Пензы . Откажься от етом деле, а то прийдут ОМОН и посмотрят на ВАШИ компютеры откуда софт взялся и всем будет п....ц. Ишь ты, захотелось пацану 3Д нахаляву делать бабло нажить.

Pavel Klepinin
03-27-2010, 01:34 PM
Ишь ты , нахаляву захотел. В етом деле халявы не бывает тем более в Пензы . Откажься от етом деле, а то прийдут ОМОН и посмотрят на ВАШИ компютеры откуда софт взялся и всем будет п....ц. Ишь ты, захотелось пацану 3Д нахаляву делать бабло нажить.
I didn't realy understand what are you going to say, but thanx to Wolfgang, OCT creators and some other good users of this forum, I've managed to transform film into DCP for free. My goal is not to get money from this transformations. I share my experiments and my script for free. Maybe my goal is opposite. Anyone could make this, even if he is from Penza :blush5:
ps Your russian is awful. Shame on you if you're a russian-speaking person.

Terrence Meiczinger
03-29-2010, 07:50 AM
I still haven't had much luck getting an MPEG2 to work properly. There must be a flag or some other setting missing when using ffmpeg to create the stream. I can create a DCP using jpeg2000s, so most of the workflow seems correct. It will be nice to figure out the mpeg, since it can potentially save a lot of time, especially when the source is already mpeg2.

I'm developing a software package that simplifies everything into a one-step process. I forgot how much I dislike building GUIs.

Thrane
03-30-2010, 04:57 AM
Thank you for the great guide!
I managed to make a simple 15 sec piece (no sound) and tested it in the local cinema...
BUT!
Hope you guys can help med out here!

The colors are just so wrong!
The look like I have taken a CMYK photo and viewed in RGB - the colors are very bright.

Any ideas on how to get the correct colorspace?

Thanks!

Pavel Klepinin
03-30-2010, 10:40 PM
Thank you for the great guide!
I managed to make a simple 15 sec piece (no sound) and tested it in the local cinema...
BUT!
Hope you guys can help med out here!

The colors are just so wrong!
The look like I have taken a CMYK photo and viewed in RGB - the colors are very bright.

Any ideas on how to get the correct colorspace?

Thanks!

What guide did you use?
Have you made some colorspace transformations and gamma correction (for exc. by ImageMagik - "convert <frame> -alpha Off -depth 12 -gamma 0.454545 -recolor "0.4124564 0.3575761 0.1804375 0.2126729 0.7151522 0.0721750 0.0193339 0.1191920 0.9503041" -gamma 2.6") ?

Thrane
03-30-2010, 10:51 PM
Used the guide on page 1 in this thread to make a DCP, but haven't followed any guide regarding the colorspace.
Tried "normal" RGB and also LAB color as I read somewhere that I had to use CIE XYZ?

Thrane
03-30-2010, 11:02 PM
Now I have downloaded ImageMagick, but I'm not good at that kind of programs.
I need and interface... :-(

Pavel Klepinin
03-30-2010, 11:51 PM
I'm affraid there is no GUI for DCP-making with colorspace correction, for now.
But you can use my bat-script (http://reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=536577&postcount=52) (for Windows) if you want.

Thrane
03-30-2010, 11:59 PM
Thanks, will have a look.
My problem is only to get the right colorspace.
Making the DCP is no problem....

M Most
03-31-2010, 08:05 AM
I'm affraid there is no GUI for DCP-making with colorspace correction, for now.


Sure there is, at least for the colorspace conversion part. It's called Adobe After Effects. But it's not open source.

Thrane
03-31-2010, 10:43 AM
I'm using After Effects for making a tiff sequence, but again, the problem is the wrong colorspace.
What are the correct settings to get the CIE XYZ as output?
If thats what I need?

M Most
03-31-2010, 11:55 AM
I'm using After Effects for making a tiff sequence, but again, the problem is the wrong colorspace.
What are the correct settings to get the CIE XYZ as output?
If thats what I need?

Without going through things step by step, read the Adobe white paper on color management in After Effects. It tells you everything you want to know.

Pavel Klepinin
03-31-2010, 12:02 PM
I'm using After Effects for making a tiff sequence, but again, the problem is the wrong colorspace.
What are the correct settings to get the CIE XYZ as output?
If thats what I need?
You can save your clip as tiff sequence using X'Y'Z' colorspace, and then use OCT GUI to biult dcp. Check some first pages, there was a correct advice.

Eren Ozkural
03-31-2010, 12:51 PM
Just read the walkthrough...this is seriously one of the coolest posts I have ever read on REDUSER Leerafel. Well done.

I especially like the fact that I have everything I need at hand beside the Easy DPX license.

Now, to find a booth manager in London whose feeling generous...

Priit Poldmaa
03-31-2010, 03:45 PM
Doing here my first conversions to DCP for a local indie feature.
Got my first pakage with Opencinematools today.
Wolfgang, Pavel, Chris etc have given an invaluable information here.

But one aspect worries me.
With the ImageMagick sample the conversion is from sRGB to X'Y'Z' P3.
-gamma 0.454545 -recolor "0.4124564 0.3575761 0.1804375 0.2126729 0.7151522 0.0721750 0.0193339 0.1191920 0.9503041"

What coeficents shoud I use if the source is Rec.709?
Got the original as BlackMagic 10-bit uncompressed video and converted to DPX files with Combustion. Gamma was left as original.

Thanks
Priit

Wolfgang Woehl
04-01-2010, 01:59 PM
priitp,

see http://github.com/wolfgangw/digital_cinema_tools/blob/master/rec709-xyz_matrix.rb for the exact numbers and source code to check those numbers.

Priit Poldmaa
04-02-2010, 07:56 AM
Thanks Wolfgang.
Have see it earlier but forgot already.

What about gamma?
As Rec.709 gamma has a linear part it is not so easy to deal it with Imagemagic convert -gamma.
Let's say we use one value for gamma but what might it be?

I remember Michael Most wrote somewhere that "Rec709 is described as having a specific gamma that is somewhere around 2.3 or so (but not exactly, the lower end of the curve is a bit different)"

So will this be the best bet? -gamma 0.434783

It seems to me it would be good to have a 1D LUT for linearisation.
I have to check the -clut possibilties.

Priit

M Most
04-02-2010, 08:00 AM
I remember Michael Most wrote somewhere that "Rec709 is described as having a specific gamma that is somewhere around 2.3 or so (but not exactly, the lower end of the curve is a bit different)"

I might have said that, and it's not inaccurate. The real problem with Red709 is that there is no definition for a reference display, in fact, there is no display definition at all, as opposed to, say, the DCI P3 specification. I'm told Charles Poynton is currently working on trying to rectify that, among other things.

Priit Poldmaa
04-02-2010, 08:59 AM
Thanks Michael for the input.

Unfortunatelly ITU Rec.709 standard is not freely available.

From Cine-tal (http://www.cine-tal.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38&sid=82204a7364220654a95da57be6ce8b78) forum here found this formula:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Overall opto-electronic transfer characteristics at source:

V = (1.099 * L^0.45) - 0.099 for 1 ≥ L ≥ 0.018
V = 4.5 * L for 0.018 > L ≥ 0
where:
L: luminance of the image 0 ≤ L ≤ 1
V: corresponding electrical signal
-------------------------------------------------------------

Not sure how reliable is this source.
Meaning to make a -clut image based on it.

Priit

Nick Shaw
04-02-2010, 12:56 PM
That is the formula for converting from linear (scene referred) levels to code values in a Rec709 coded file. It is what you get when choosing Rec709 as the output LUT in Red software. However a 'normal' HD monitor does not follow the the inverse of this function in converting the input signal to output luminance. That is what is not defined.

FilmLight have a preset in their Truelight system called "SonyHD" which approximates the response of a Sony HD monitor set up with a pluge in a dimly lit room. An inverse of this might be a good start point to create a LUT.

Sulio Pulev
04-07-2010, 02:37 PM
i didn't realy understand what are you going to say, but thanx to wolfgang, oct creators and some other good users of this forum, i've managed to transform film into dcp for free. My goal is not to get money from this transformations. I share my experiments and my script for free. Maybe my goal is opposite. Anyone could make this, even if he is from penza :blush5:
Ps your russian is awful. Shame on you if you're a russian-speaking person.

Был бы я руский, давно помер от алкоголя. Кстати что ты понимаешься в етих дел что бы "поделиться" с друзьями? Ровно ничего - все время спрашиваеш и делаеш ошибки. Оставь професионалы заниматься, а ты занимайся своими делами, а то в етот кризис останешься без работы, а то и похуже. И посмотри на свой лицензионный софтуер, а то придут ребята в черном и всем будет п....ц. Кстати а ты не безпокоишься ребятам, которые занимаются етим делам на комерческой основе? Ты знаеш как руские ребята решают такие дела?

Sulio Pulev
04-07-2010, 02:45 PM
Now I have downloaded ImageMagick, but I'm not good at that kind of programs.
I need and interface... :-(
Good ! You want all, usefull, easy and for FREE ! But did you wish to offer all what you do for free? If you wish , I'm willing to hire you (for free of cource). REMEMBER !!! There are NO! free lunch ! And repeat that as frequently as you can. So if you are profesional, you will not loose your time with free tools, if you are not profesional (I suppose,if you use RED....) you CAN'T work with OCT and you will try to loose somebody else time. So if you can do yourself DCP - do it. If not - don't loose peoples time and don't ask for free stuff.

Christopher Lowden
04-08-2010, 11:47 PM
Sadly, I imagine that many of the people on this thread are not professionals. The definition of a professional
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/professional


A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.
One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: hired a professional to decorate the house.
A skilled practitioner; an expert.

I am not a professional DCP creator but I am a professional film editor. Therefore I come to forums like this to share what I know and to learn from others. I don't know of any professional DCP makers and if I did want just to have a DCP, I would have already called them. Therefore, Sulev, if you feel that your knowledge is worth money, sell it and stop criticizing those that don't have your professional abilities.

Secondly, has anyone been able to compile opencinematools for macintel?

I have just about done the whole workflow on a mac, thanks to the extreme generosity of Chris Perry at http://bitfilms.blogspot.com/
Once I have managed it all, I will publish an idiots guide to making a DCP on a mac.
LONG LIVE FORUM EXCHANGE

Pavel Klepinin
04-09-2010, 12:08 AM
2Sulio Pulev,
Yeah, I'm russian and every morning I die because of drinking Vodka then I go to the Red Square walk over my bear, then we, me and my bear, go to install pirate soft then come KGB, they kill me again for pirate soft. And then I go to sleep to see my sweet dreams about thoose whom I ruined their lives because of using and promoting open source, not their paid DCP-making software.
You watch too many television, you know nothing about real Russia. At all.


Therefore, Sulev, if you feel that your knowledge is worth money, sell it and stop criticizing those that don't have your professional abilities.
BTW, I'm far from thinking that Sulio Pulev is a professional. Real professional is not intended to criticize other abilities, people who want to learn something.
All his posts unmask him as a simple troll.

Terrence Meiczinger
04-09-2010, 11:17 AM
Christopher, I have managed to compile all the necessary tools on an intel Mac and create a DCP. Let me know what errors you are getting and I'll do my best to help you.

Christopher Lowden
04-09-2010, 01:57 PM
Looks like this. Many thanks

sh-3.2# chmod +x ./build.tcsh
sh-3.2# ./build.tcsh
################### building opencinematools ######################
i686-apple-darwin9-g++-4.0.1: /var/root/etc/lib/libkumu.a: No such file or directory
i686-apple-darwin9-g++-4.0.1: /var/root/etc/lib/libasdcp.a: No such file or directory
i686-apple-darwin9-g++-4.0.1: /var/root/etc/lib/libcrypto.a: No such file or directory
i686-apple-darwin9-g++-4.0.1: /var/root/etc/lib/libexpat.a: No such file or directory
i686-apple-darwin9-g++-4.0.1: /var/root/etc/lib/libkumu.a: No such file or directory
i686-apple-darwin9-g++-4.0.1: /var/root/etc/lib/libasdcp.a: No such file or directory
i686-apple-darwin9-g++-4.0.1: /var/root/etc/lib/libcrypto.a: No such file or directory
i686-apple-darwin9-g++-4.0.1: /var/root/etc/lib/libexpat.a: No such file or directory
i686-apple-darwin9-g++-4.0.1: /var/root/etc/lib/libkumu.a: No such file or directory
i686-apple-darwin9-g++-4.0.1: /var/root/etc/lib/libasdcp.a: No such file or directory
i686-apple-darwin9-g++-4.0.1: /var/root/etc/lib/libcrypto.a: No such file or directory
i686-apple-darwin9-g++-4.0.1: /var/root/etc/lib/libexpat.a: No such file or directory
################### Installing OpenCinemaTools ######################
install: ../../bin/mkcpl: No such file or directory
install: ../../bin/mkpkl: No such file or directory
install: ../../bin/mkmap: No such file or directory
################### Cleaning OpenCinemaTools ######################
################### Done OpenCinemaTools ######################
sh-3.2#

Christopher Lowden
04-09-2010, 02:06 PM
I should add that I am on 10.5.8 2.66ghz macpro.

Wolfgang Woehl
04-09-2010, 02:08 PM
Christopher, you seem to not have built and installed the required dependencies (kumu is part of asdcplib, etc). See the Readme for instructions.

Plus: the version of asdcplib that comes with opencinematools 1.1.2 is ancient. Latest version (1.5.32) is at http://www.cinecert.com/asdcplib/

Terrence Meiczinger
04-09-2010, 06:03 PM
Christopher, either you haven't installed all the needed libraries or the path to the libs is incorrect.

Christopher Lowden
04-09-2010, 11:02 PM
Christopher, you seem to not have built and installed the required dependencies (kumu is part of asdcplib, etc). See the Readme for instructions.

Plus: the version of asdcplib that comes with opencinematools 1.1.2 is ancient. Latest version (1.5.32) is at http://www.cinecert.com/asdcplib/


John Hurst at cinecert helped me compile (see below) and it seemed to work. But I have no idea where the install was put.
To unpack the file: $ tar xzvf asdcplib-1.5.32.tar.gz Then to build: $ cd asdcplib-1.5.32 $ ./configure $ make $ sudo make install The last step will ask for your password.
The README does not give a detail of where the files can be found and if they are in the right place. Throughout this DCP experience, my primary problem has been finding out where the elements are installed.

Christopher Lowden
04-10-2010, 03:41 PM
It seems that asdcplib-1.5.32 installs all its elements in /usr/local/lib
but opencinematools looks for these elements in i686-apple-darwin9-g++-4.0.1. Is this normal? should I create the files that opencinematool is looking for?
How did you all do it? Incidentally, I am installing onto a macintel 2.66ghz OS 10.5.8
Many thanks

Terrence Meiczinger
04-10-2010, 03:56 PM
There are a few places you'll find libraries are installed.

/usr/lib, /usr/local/lib, and /opt/local/lib (if using macports). These should be in your library path and be found, unless an build file specifically gives another path. I didn't use the build.tcsh file included with opencinematools, so I don't recall what it was looking for.

Try this. Create a file called Makefile in the same directory as the build.tcsh. Copy the below into. The formatting might get goofed up, but any indents needs to be TABS not spaces.

CC = g++
LIBS = -lm -lasdcp -lkumu -lcrypto
SRCS = ../../src/
BINS = ../../bin/

all : mkcpl mkpkl mkmap

mkcpl : $(SRCS)mkcpl.cpp
$(CC) -o $(BINS)mkcpl $(SRCS)mkcpl.cpp $(LIBS)

mkpkl : $(SRCS)mkpkl.cpp
$(CC) -o $(BINS)mkpkl $(SRCS)mkpkl.cpp $(LIBS)

mkmap : $(SRCS)mkmap.cpp
$(CC) -o $(BINS)mkmap $(SRCS)mkmap.cpp $(LIBS)

install :
install -v -p -s ../../bin/mkcpl /usr/bin
install -v -p -s ../../bin/mkpkl /usr/bin
install -v -p -s ../../bin/mkmap /usr/bin

Christopher Lowden
04-10-2010, 11:31 PM
Many thanks for your response. I created a Makefile but I probably did not do it properly. Below is the result. But before hand, I have some questions as I learn more about unix and opensource.
1. You mention indents. If there are any, where could they be?
If you have the time, you can send me a file to christopher@fearlesstv.com
2. You mention macport. I could not find opencinametools in macport. Did you? It would make life easier.
3. I found i686-apple-darwin9-gcc-4.0.1 in the usr/bin/ . Does the error below mean that it does not see the file?
4. What OS did you build this on?
5. Could this be built with Xcode?

From all I discover I will publish here a 'how to', so any neophyte details would be very helpful.


LowdenINTEL:macosx christ$ ./Makefile
i686-apple-darwin9-gcc-4.0.1: =: No such file or directory
i686-apple-darwin9-gcc-4.0.1: g++: No such file or directory
i686-apple-darwin9-gcc-4.0.1: no input files
./Makefile: line 2: LIBS: command not found
./Makefile: line 3: SRCS: command not found
./Makefile: line 4: BINS: command not found
./Makefile: line 6: all: command not found
./Makefile: line 8: SRCS: command not found
./Makefile: line 8: mkcpl: command not found
i686-apple-darwin9-gcc-4.0.1: no input files
./Makefile: line 9: BINS: command not found
./Makefile: line 9: SRCS: command not found
./Makefile: line 9: LIBS: command not found
./Makefile: line 9: -o: command not found
./Makefile: line 11: SRCS: command not found
./Makefile: line 11: mkpkl: command not found
i686-apple-darwin9-gcc-4.0.1: no input files
./Makefile: line 12: BINS: command not found
./Makefile: line 12: SRCS: command not found
./Makefile: line 12: LIBS: command not found
./Makefile: line 12: -o: command not found
./Makefile: line 14: SRCS: command not found
./Makefile: line 14: mkmap: command not found
i686-apple-darwin9-gcc-4.0.1: no input files
./Makefile: line 15: BINS: command not found
./Makefile: line 15: SRCS: command not found
./Makefile: line 15: LIBS: command not found
./Makefile: line 15: -o: command not found
usage: install [-bCcpSsv] [-B suffix] [-f flags] [-g group] [-m mode]
[-o owner] file1 file2
install [-bCcpSsv] [-B suffix] [-f flags] [-g group] [-m mode]
[-o owner] file1 ... fileN directory
install -d [-v] [-g group] [-m mode] [-o owner] directory ...
install: ../../bin/mkcpl: No such file or directory
install: ../../bin/mkpkl: No such file or directory
install: ../../bin/mkmap: No such file or directory
LowdenINTEL:macosx christ$

Wolfgang Woehl
04-11-2010, 08:53 AM
Christopher, you don't run the Makefile but make which in turn reads the Makefile in the current dir. A Makefile lists targets and instructions how to reach those targets, like calling compilers and linkers.

make wants a Makefile with tabs for indentation or it will die and emit nasty curses in the process. Don't ask. Please :)

Terrence Meiczinger
04-11-2010, 03:15 PM
opencinemastools is not in macports. I mentioned that because you can install openjpeg, ffmpeg, imagemagick with macports rather than manually. If you installed those tools with macports, the libs would be in /opt/local/lib. If you did it manually with make, then they would most likely end up in /usr/local/lib.

Apparently, the indents didn't make into the post. The lines with $(CC) should be indented with a tab. Also, the "install -v lines ... " should be indented with a tab. The make tool is a strange beast.

Did you install xcode? I'm assuming you did since you have gcc and make. As Wolfgang mention you should run 'make' in the directory where the Makefile is located. There are some tutorials on the make process on the web, I'd suggest reading through some. You don't want anything too detailed, just a little overview. Unfortunately, building with make/configure can be stupidly complicated, fussy, and irritating at times. In the Linux days before yum or apt, you could spend weeks trying build something on regular basis.

opencinematools will build on OSX, its just a few minor details you need to sort out. I built it on 10.6, but 10.5 should work the same.

If you still can't get this to work, I'll email you over my Makefile.

Terrence Meiczinger
04-11-2010, 03:30 PM
So, speaking of OSes, what is everyone doing their workflow on? I've spent time getting it to work on Windows, Linux, and OS X. I found it was easiest to compile everything and run under Linux, but I prefer the Mac because I use Final Cut and other video tools.

Christopher Lowden
04-13-2010, 02:39 AM
For my part, I am a mac man. I use FCP and avid for my projects. I prefer Avid, particularly now that the version 5 is out. The primary problem with Avid is that it works in 701 colourspace, unlike everything else, that is in RGB. But in the end, either I spend my time dancing between apps in FCP or I have a slightly reduced colour space. You can't win them all. As for grading, I have used the much proclaimed Color. It looked great at first until realised how limiting it is for multipasses etc. So I am back to Avid Symphonie, with a much more fluid and integrated workflow.
Lastly, I would not be surprised if Apple is reading this thread and saying, why don't we integrate these free terminal tools into a future version of Final Cut Cinema Tools. If I am managing to get through it, it would take them but a few hours to create a GUI that does it all automatically.

Riku Naskali
04-13-2010, 05:55 AM
Hi,

I tested converting RGB files to XYZ from After Effects, but the colors seem really greenish on my monitor. Is this how it should be, since a computer monitor is in RGB color space?

Also, the source files are in RedSpace gamma, so if I go the Imagemagick route I should change the matrix, right? Or export clips again from Redcine with REC. 709 gamma?

Christopher Lowden
04-13-2010, 02:12 PM
opencinemastools is not in macports. I mentioned that because you can install openjpeg, ffmpeg, imagemagick with macports rather than manually. If you installed those tools with macports, the libs would be in /opt/local/lib. If you did it manually with make, then they would most likely end up in /usr/local/lib.

Apparently, the indents didn't make into the post. The lines with $(CC) should be indented with a tab. Also, the "install -v lines ... " should be indented with a tab. The make tool is a strange beast.

Did you install xcode? I'm assuming you did since you have gcc and make. As Wolfgang mention you should run 'make' in the directory where the Makefile is located. There are some tutorials on the make process on the web, I'd suggest reading through some. You don't want anything too detailed, just a little overview. Unfortunately, building with make/configure can be stupidly complicated, fussy, and irritating at times. In the Linux days before yum or apt, you could spend weeks trying build something on regular basis.

opencinematools will build on OSX, its just a few minor details you need to sort out. I built it on 10.6, but 10.5 should work the same.

If you still can't get this to work, I'll email you over my Makefile.

Sadly, the makefile that I have attached just does not quite make

LowdenINTEL:macosx christ$ make Makefile
make: Nothing to be done for `Makefile'.

Have you any ideas?

Many thanks

Wolfgang Woehl
04-13-2010, 02:34 PM
make all
make install

Christopher Lowden
04-13-2010, 03:17 PM
Many many thanks
When I did it in sudo su with the instructions above, it worked. I have just done a test. The Command C creates a file but D and E say that C is invalid.

PROJ.cpl.xml: Invalid CompositionPlaylist or PackingList file.

I used Chris Perry's steps

Command C (create an XML composition playlist):

mkcpl --kind feature --title DCPFULLNAME \
--annotation DCPFULLNAME --norating \
PROJ.video.mxf PROJ.audio.mxf > PROJ.cpl.xmlCommand D (create an XML packing list):

mkpkl --issuer BitFilms --annotation DCPFULLNAME \ PROJ.video.mxf PROJ.audio.mxf PROJ.cpl.xml > PROJ.pkl.xmlCommand E (create the ASSETMAP and VOLINDEX XML files):

mkmap --issuer BitFilms \
PROJ.video.mxf PROJ.audio.mxf PROJ.cpl.xml PROJ.pkl.xml
Anyway, I am going to have a play and see how I get on. Many thanks again,

Christopher Lowden
04-13-2010, 11:59 PM
As promised, I have listed all the stages I have used to install an openscource version on a mac. It is work in progress so, if any of you have the time I would be very interested to have any contributions to make this doc better.

Digital cinema package - how i, a computer neophyte, made an open source dcp on my mac
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=43787

Christopher Lowden
04-16-2010, 10:09 PM
Does anyone know how to format subtitles for the DCP?

M Most
04-16-2010, 11:06 PM
Does anyone know how to format subtitles for the DCP?

You can look at Belle Nuit (www.belle-nuit.com) or MacCaption (www.cpcweb.com), both of which can generate TI CineCanvas files (the format required). I think you can get demo versions of both. The files are just XML files, so if you can generate some test files, you can probably gain enough knowledge to write your own from scratch, although it's much easier to use a program like one of these two to do that for you.

Christopher Lowden
04-17-2010, 12:38 AM
Many thanks. I have found this link that gives a sample.
http://www.thedigitalcowboy.us/Index_files/CineCanvas_files/CineCanvas.htm

plus this a useful utility for free
http://www.michaelcinquin.com/tools/subtitles

Christopher Lowden
04-17-2010, 12:42 AM
Another question. What is the workflow for creating reels for an open source solution? Is there a length limit? Any ideas?

Christopher Lowden
04-17-2010, 01:32 AM
Having had a look at the Cinecanvas XML, I see that it is referenced to a timecode. Where does this timecode come from? In the opensource workflow, I use numerous file formats that do not have timecode metadata, so I presume that DCP does not read file headers to extract the tc. Is the tc relative to the reel length? Any ideas?

M Most
04-17-2010, 08:43 AM
Is the tc relative to the reel length?

Yes.

Antony Smith
04-20-2010, 07:22 AM
Many many thanks
When I did it in sudo su with the instructions above, it worked. I have just done a test. The Command C creates a file but D and E say that C is invalid.

PROJ.cpl.xml: Invalid CompositionPlaylist or PackingList file.

I used Chris Perry's steps

Command C (create an XML composition playlist):

mkcpl --kind feature --title DCPFULLNAME \
--annotation DCPFULLNAME --norating \
PROJ.video.mxf PROJ.audio.mxf > PROJ.cpl.xmlCommand D (create an XML packing list):

mkpkl --issuer BitFilms --annotation DCPFULLNAME \ PROJ.video.mxf PROJ.audio.mxf PROJ.cpl.xml > PROJ.pkl.xmlCommand E (create the ASSETMAP and VOLINDEX XML files):

mkmap --issuer BitFilms \
PROJ.video.mxf PROJ.audio.mxf PROJ.cpl.xml PROJ.pkl.xml
Anyway, I am going to have a play and see how I get on. Many thanks again,

Hi Christopher, Did you overcome this issue? I've just run into exactly the same problem.

Desperate to hear what you did to get out of it.

Antony

Christopher Lowden
04-20-2010, 07:51 AM
Sadly not. We need the help of the gods.

Antony Smith
04-20-2010, 08:40 AM
That's a shame!

It would appear that someone else has had a similar issue in Linux and have overcome it. Here is the link to that in the opencinematools blog site http://code.google.com/p/opencinematools/issues/detail?id=25

I'm sure you have already looked at this though.

Does it make sense to you and would it translate to MACOSX?

Christopher Lowden
04-20-2010, 10:58 PM
I have contacted Chris Perry, a god, who started the google code thread, to see how he got around it. Hopefully, he will have a solution.

Christopher Lowden
04-20-2010, 11:02 PM
Does anyone know what the subtitle file should be called. For that matter, has anyone got a list of the file required for a DCP so I can make sure I have everything?

Antony Smith
04-21-2010, 01:19 AM
I did manage to contact John Hurst about this problem and he stated that XML support is optional in ASDCPLIB and that you have to enable expat while compiling ASDCPLIB. I have tried it but still the same error comes up. the code for this is ./configure --with expat-
This also links in to what Chris Perry was saying about turning on xml support.

Still not working for me though!!

Christopher Lowden
04-21-2010, 04:53 AM
I thought that I was using the asdcplib from cinecert for the MXF creation but the XML creation was done using the opencinematools elements. If this is not the case, why use opencinematools at all if asdcplib can do it?

Terrence Meiczinger
04-21-2010, 02:40 PM
1. Invalid CompositionPlaylist or PackingList file

What is your CPL.xml file?

2. XML support in ASDCPLIB

You need to ensure you have an XML parser lib installed, like xerces or expat.
You then need to run ./configure with the appropriate XML lib enabled (--with-expat-lib or --with-xerces-lib).
This is only needed if you are doing timed-text files(closed captioning or subtitles)

3. Opencinematools vs asdcplib

asdcplib wraps/creates an MXF container around your content (audio, video)
opencinematools creates the XML files used to describe a "playlist" or collection of mxf wrapped pieces.

Christopher Lowden
04-24-2010, 12:01 AM
Having spoken to Chris Perry, there seems to be an issue with the Kumu library on Open Cinema Tools (OCT).
http://code.google.com/p/opencinematools/issues/detail?id=25
He explains how to rebuild the app correctly for Linux.
It seems that the problem is that the Kumu library is not deployed correctly for the OSX build, or more to the point, it is not deployed at all in the OSX version. Therefore the easiest solution is to find a version of Kumu for OSX. (I am repeating what Chris said but I must confess I don't understand all of it)
So, in short, we need the help of the gods to get the OSX version off the ground. ( I hope Wolfgang is reading this.)

Wolfgang Woehl
04-24-2010, 07:22 AM
Christopher,
Kumu is part of asdcplib. Get the latest release (http://www.cinecert.com/asdcplib/asdcplib-1.5.32.tar.gz) and install. Then try changing 2 lines in opencinematools-1.1.2/build/macosx/build.tcsh:

* Change
$compileCmd -o ../../bin/mkpkl.o ../../src/mkpkl.cpp -I${PREFIX}/include
* to
$compileCmd -o ../../bin/mkpkl.o ../../src/mkpkl.cpp -I${PREFIX}/include -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64

* and
$compileCmd -o ../../bin/mkmap.o ../../src/mkmap.cpp -I${PREFIX}/include
* to
$compileCmd -o ../../bin/mkmap.o ../../src/mkmap.cpp -I${PREFIX}/include -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64

and rebuild the opencinematools binaries.

Terrence Meiczinger
04-24-2010, 08:23 AM
Christopher,

I have compiled everything on OSX, so it does work. As Wolfgang stated Kumu is part of asdcplib. What is your email? I will send you all of my versions, which hopefully you can compile.

Christopher Lowden
04-24-2010, 11:06 PM
Terrence
Many thanks for the offer. Being in the spirit of a forum and not being the only one interested, may I suggest that you upload your files to this forum so that others may share in your valuable fruit.

Christopher Lowden
04-24-2010, 11:15 PM
Wolfgang,
Sadly, I never managed to compile using the build.tcsh correctly on my macintel 10.5 and instead used the script supplied by Terrence, that worked well. The installation of this script is described earlier in this forum (See below)

CC = g++
LIBS = -lm -lasdcp -lkumu -lcrypto
SRCS = ../../src/
BINS = ../../bin/

all : mkcpl mkpkl mkmap

mkcpl : $(SRCS)mkcpl.cpp
$(CC) -o $(BINS)mkcpl $(SRCS)mkcpl.cpp $(LIBS)

mkpkl : $(SRCS)mkpkl.cpp
$(CC) -o $(BINS)mkpkl $(SRCS)mkpkl.cpp $(LIBS)

mkmap : $(SRCS)mkmap.cpp
$(CC) -o $(BINS)mkmap $(SRCS)mkmap.cpp $(LIBS)

install :
install -v -p -s ../../bin/mkcpl /usr/bin
install -v -p -s ../../bin/mkpkl /usr/bin
install -v -p -s ../../bin/mkmap /usr/bin

As you may notice, the lines that you suggest are not in the Terrence version. Thanks for your offering.

Wolfgang Woehl
04-25-2010, 04:44 AM
Christopher, look at those lines again and you will see where to add the -D flags I suggested to the Makefile (which is not a script and is not "installed") you quote above. Let the coin drop.

Plus, these issues really are the most basic obstacles one needs to tackle when building from source code. I wonder why you want to do this. If you don't start to get a _little_ more comfortable with shells, compilers, linkers, make etc. there's a world of pain waiting for you. A bit like building a house of cards on the assumption that allocating 2 cards for the bottom floor should be just fine. Could work but doesn't, ever.

Antony Smith
04-25-2010, 04:45 AM
Christopher,

I have managed to get it to work on both my mac book pro and mac pro (10.6.2)

It works great using the instructions that you had posted.

I was advised to removed the folders I had downloaded and basically start again.

In doing this I downloaded the newer version of asdcplib, installed it as per your instruction but also adding the important "--with- expat" and then running the make file that Terrence provided. It has do be done in this sequence.

May I also add that I did have issues installing the newer openjpeg-read-only through the Xcode file. The answer was actually in the folder name. It is in fact Read only!! So when you try to build and run the application from within XCode it had permission errors. Therefore, I changed the permissions and it worked. However, I had to manually install Libtiff.3.dylb and jpeg.62.dylb into usr/local/lib only then would the whole J2C encoding work.

So, back to the XML files. My advice would be to take off the folders and start again. Your instructions are spot on. All you need to do when configuring asdcplib is to:
cd asdcplib-1.5.32
./configure --with-expat
make
sudo make install

Duplication of Makefile
The only thing I would add to Terrance's suggestion is that the Makefile won't run as a .tcsh. Therefore, you will need to ctrl click on the make file to 'get info' and delete .tcsh from the filename. .

Then run the new makefile in build/macosx.

That should be it

if this doesn't work let me know and I'll email/upload the new makefile for you

Wolfgang Woehl
04-25-2010, 04:54 AM
A Makefile is a resource for the program make. A Makefile can't be run. The name Makefile is special in that make will look for a file with that name. Renaming a Makefile to Makefile.tcsh doesn't change what's in the file (a resource for make). Renaming a shell script like Foo.tcsh to Makefile doesn't turn a shell script into a Makefile. Ok?

Antony Smith
04-25-2010, 05:07 AM
Christopher, look at those lines again and you will see where to add the -D flags I suggested to the Makefile (which is not a script and is not "installed") you quote above. Let the coin drop.

Plus, these issues really are the most basic obstacles one needs to tackle when building from source code. I wonder why you want to do this. If you don't start to get a _little_ more comfortable with shells, compilers, linkers, make etc. there's a world of pain waiting for you. A bit like building a house of cards on the assumption that allocating 2 cards for the bottom floor should be just fine. Could work but doesn't, ever.

Wolfgang,

I completely understand what you are saying. However, questioning why people want to do this doesn't really help. I don't have any experience programming but I have been able to work through it and make it work for me. You have provided utterly brilliant info to make this happen and for that I would like to thank you.

Clearly, people do not want to pay the ridiculous prices that people charge for software and beyond that to encode on your behalf. The very fact that it is Open source allows individuals to explore possibilities. Yes, it is taxing on time and sanity but for those who persevere a great result awaits. This is the point of Forums like this. It's a community of people trying to make things work and broaden understanding. Remember, this is also a Red User Forum. This question would not be asked of all the people who have purchased the RED Camera.

My ultimate question to you would be Why Not? if it helps broaden one's knowledge surely it is a good thing isn't it. I have learned so much about digital cinema just through this process alone that I feel personally enriched.

Let's keep this forum alive and positive not question why people want to do it because the subtext of your suggestion is that you should give up and not bother, which is not very helpful.

Antony Smith
04-25-2010, 05:10 AM
Wolfgang,

As I say, I'm no programmer and just illustrating what worked for me. ok?

Wolfgang Woehl
04-25-2010, 05:22 AM
Learning, yes, great. Exactly what I said.

Antony Smith
04-25-2010, 05:31 AM
Has anyone been successful in creating multiple reels using Open Cinema Tools? If so, what is the process? I haven't seen any threads anywhere regarding this, so forgive me if I have missed something somewhere.

Wolfgang Woehl
04-25-2010, 06:46 AM
Have you tried "mkcpl [tags ...] image_reel1.mxf image_reel2.mxf > cpl.xml"?

M Most
04-25-2010, 09:12 AM
Clearly, people do not want to pay the ridiculous prices that people charge for software and beyond that to encode on your behalf.

Prices are not "ridiculous," they're based on supply and demand. Anything that's a niche, specialty market is going to carry a higher price because the volume is always going to be relatively low. What you really seem to mean is people with no money can't afford things that aren't free. That I would agree with. But calling the pricing of specialty software tools for a very small market "ridiculous" is like saying it's "ridiculous" that a Ferrari costs over $200K. Yet it does, and people buy them anyway. If you truly need a DCP - and not just because you want to play around with making one - you're likely either delivering a picture to a high end festival, or selling it to a distributor. For most one-off screenings, most theaters have alternative methods of projecting your movie (from Quicktime files, BluRay discs, HDCam tape or similar, possibly things like Red Ray in the future, etc.) that will work just as well for the audience you're likely to attract to the screening. Those that do need DCP's usually need them done correctly - that is, color corrected for proper display in P3 color space at 2.6 gamma, checked for proper X'Y'Z' encoding on a digital cinema projector, assured to play on all common servers, and in many cases, encrypted for security purposes. Requiring all of that means that whomever is making the DCP must be able to meet all of those requirements. The open source tools can do that - that's why the DCI specification was designed around only open formats - but it takes some understanding of the process and some specific rather expensive equipment to be able to check it and ensure that it all works properly.

THAT's why the prices are what they are.

Christopher Lowden
04-25-2010, 09:26 AM
Wolfgang,
I have been making independent films for over 20 years. I started cutting on films and 2inch recorders (that gives you an idea of my age). The world of pain started when I disovered that I would not be going to film school (too stupid) and my parents weren't rich. It has continued. The current short film I am making a DCP for has taken me 7 years to make and involved over 60 people.
Since embarking on the DCP route, I have discovered what unix is, what shell is and what commands are. And I am very happy that I have. All that because I have a film that I want to show in a cinema that was shot digitally and I want it projected digitally. To be honest, if you think this is a world of pain, try producing a feature film. That is really painfully, particularly at the moment.
So as a self acclaimed neophyte, I thank you for your precious time. It has not been anymore painful to me than finding a decent idea and thanks to people like yourself, a darn sight easier.
As Anthony so rightly says, this is not just about getting a cheap DCP but also about learning, sharing, understanding and 'broaden one's knowledge'.

Christopher Lowden
04-25-2010, 09:34 AM
Just to explain why I want a DCP. I have a single crew showing at a cinema. It has a Doremi server with a Christy 2k. I have seen what HDCAM does to my film and I felt that all my crew that worked for free were worth more than that. HDCAM SR is just too expensive and still not as good as DCP 2K. But primarily, I am just very curious about this technology. It is an ISO standard and therefore a universal distribution solution. This is all very exciting.

Tim Whitcomb
04-25-2010, 09:50 AM
QuVis has gone bust, so please do share your solution.

oh really? they are still accepting orders for $699.

www.quvis.com

why are you saying they are bust?

Antony Smith
04-25-2010, 10:32 AM
Thanks Wolfgang, I shall work on that.

M Most, thank you for your patronising contribution.

Do you have any idea what Independent Cinema actually means? I'm sorry to be so blunt but this really isn't the forum for your kind of cooments. Of course I understand why things are priced the way they are, but Why in god's name would I want to deliver to an exhibitor on dvd or tape? For a start those formats can only reach 1920 x1080, and there are on going costs associated with that. The point of even screening your film for cast and crew is to put it there in its full glory. Why would you deny it that opportunity? The technology is there to be used so by damn I will take advantage of it. If you are against the idea of open source, which by the way was not the heart of this conversation, then why are you contributing to this particular forum? Open Source is there so why not use it?

Believe me when I tell you the prices are ridiculous. This is why my own company has built up a production and post production workflow around the RED. We are now in post production of a feature that would never have been possible if we had stuck to convention and paid the "proper" rates. Whether you like it or not Digital Cinema has carved the way for all film makers to get their work shown on the big screen and not be shafted by the barriers of Film.

Also, a Ferrari has wheels and a steering wheel, yes? so does a Nissan Micra. Know where I'm going with this?

Antony Smith
04-25-2010, 10:41 AM
What annoys me more than anything is that we have now entered a situation where we are having to defend or explain the reasons why we want a DCP.

This is not on!!

Wolfgang Woehl
04-25-2010, 11:20 AM
Christopher, actually I was trying to fire up your curiosity even more. Sorry if it came out wrong. Again: look at the Makefile Terrence posted and oct's build.tcsh. Their purpose is identical: setting up some compiler includes and locations and building three binaries called mkcpl, mkpkl and mkmap. Add the -D ... flags I suggested to the corresponding lines in Terrence's Makefile.

Mike, I'm going to disagree, respectfully, on a couple of things. I think the demand for affordable, easy DCP authoring is way bigger than what you suggest. A lot of things are happening off-major/off-hollywood/off-established distribution chains. Big fish and tiny fish in the same pool. The high quality standard and the simplicity of it are what's making the platform so attractive to all kinds of projects.

None of these off-use cases were part of DCI's intentions, I guess. So?

Also, the Ferrari analogy seems, bluntly said, not quite spot on. The affordable, excellent acquisition quality is here. The color math involved isn't rocket science. The packaging is easy to handle. Distribution and playout trivial. So unless you need to provide for a global release of a major production DCP authoring tools can be quite cheap, free even (like in free beer and free speech).

Martin Weiss
04-25-2010, 11:27 AM
why are you saying they are bust?

Because they were, at least in early 2009. So I guess they re-financed or were bought or whatever. Would be great for the indies if they are indeed back in business.

"QUVIS, INC. Bankruptcy Filed on March 20, 2009." Source (http://www.trollerbk.com/bankruptcy/326B4D6B-B713-FBF8-B127183A50D2B436.html).

"Chapter 11 is filed against QuVIS, Inc. in the US Bankruptcy Court for the District of Kansas." Source (http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=635668).

"QuVIS, a Topeka technology company that tried to woo Hollywood into using its digital cinema technology, has closed its doors, the company’s founder said Monday." Source (http://en.wordpress.com/tag/quvis-files-bankruptcy/).

""Whether or not we can get out of here has yet to be seen," he (CEO) said." Source (http://cjonline.com/stories/120908/bus_365359453.shtml).

Tim Whitcomb
04-25-2010, 11:53 AM
Because they were, at least in early 2009. So I guess they re-financed or were bought or whatever. Would be great for the indies if they are indeed back in business.

"QUVIS, INC. Bankruptcy Filed on March 20, 2009." Source (http://www.trollerbk.com/bankruptcy/326B4D6B-B713-FBF8-B127183A50D2B436.html).

"Chapter 11 is filed against QuVIS, Inc. in the US Bankruptcy Court for the District of Kansas." Source (http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=635668).

"QuVIS, a Topeka technology company that tried to woo Hollywood into using its digital cinema technology, has closed its doors, the company’s founder said Monday." Source (http://en.wordpress.com/tag/quvis-files-bankruptcy/).

""Whether or not we can get out of here has yet to be seen," he (CEO) said." Source (http://cjonline.com/stories/120908/bus_365359453.shtml).

Well would be good to know before I spend $700 :) and then get nothing.

Ill investigate further. thanks Martin!

Martin Weiss
04-25-2010, 12:11 PM
I was just doing the same, and going to their own website expected to find some sort of press release from later 2009 where they announce how they got out of the Chapter 11.

Instead their "news" archive ends October 2008. (http://www.quvis.com/?Action=News )

Not exactly confidence building.

Antony Smith
04-25-2010, 01:50 PM
Wolfgang,

That was embarrassingly easy. Thanks for your help on that.

What about encryption and KDM management. Do you know if these are supported within Open Cinema Tools?

Terrence Meiczinger
04-25-2010, 03:30 PM
Quvis Wraptor is no longer supported. You can still buy it... but I dunno who gets the money. It doesn't work with latest Compressor and even if you were to take the time to get it working on an older version of Compressor, the packages won't play on a lot of servers. It had a lot of potential, but that was about it.

M Most
04-25-2010, 05:34 PM
M Most, thank you for your patronising contribution.

I wasn't being patronizing, I was giving a different view, one based on simple economic fact. And one based on what the DCI specification was written for, which was not general purpose projection of one off screenings of independent productions.


Do you have any idea what Independent Cinema actually means? I'm sorry to be so blunt but this really isn't the forum for your kind of cooments.

Yes, I certainly do have a very good idea of not only what it means now, but what its meaning has been in the past, which are considerably different. You don't have to agree with things that I say, but I think I have just as much right to say them here as you do.


Of course I understand why things are priced the way they are, but Why in god's name would I want to deliver to an exhibitor on dvd or tape?

You're saying that. I didn't. I suggested that tape might be one medium, but I also said that you could use BluRay or various file formats as well. Perhaps in the future Red's Red Ray format will be another option for such things.


The technology is there to be used so by damn I will take advantage of it. If you are against the idea of open source, which by the way was not the heart of this conversation, then why are you contributing to this particular forum? Open Source is there so why not use it?

Where did I ever say I was "against open source???" I not only favor it, I use various open source tools both personally and for work. Not only that, I've repeatedly pointed out here that the entire DCI specification is designed around open formats, and very purposely so. I've even pointed out that I believe that for Red to get its Red Ray format adopted by the industry, it needs to open up the codec. I've also pointed out that to create and deliver a DCP reliably, in a form that can be handed to someone with some confidence, it needs to be checked on projection that is at least similar to that of a DCI compliant theater, and that to create such a room takes some investment. Pointing out why facilities need to charge for things they do has no bearing on my feelings about open source tools, nor have I ever stated anything here that says otherwise.


Believe me when I tell you the prices are ridiculous.

From your point of view, perhaps. Not from the point of view of everyone, especially those who have invested in the environment and equipment needed to do it repeatedly, reliably, and correctly. One could say that the price of a film print is "ridiculous" if all they were doing is making one print for one screening. But from the point of view of a studio making 10,000 prints, well, hopefully, you get the picture.


Whether you like it or not Digital Cinema has carved the way for all film makers to get their work shown on the big screen and not be shafted by the barriers of Film.

I really wish you would knock off the unfounded accusations. I have been here since practically the beginning of this forum, and I have worked on dozens of Red projects - in fact, this coming week I'm grading a pilot that was shot almost completely on M/X. Statements like this imply that anyone who works professionally in the mainstream industry is not welcome here. I know Jim doesn't feel that way (just the opposite, in fact), and you shouldn't either. But your statements seem to be pushing that nonsensical "we against the establishment" agenda. For me, that's not what this is about. This is about you feeling that something isn't worth what's being charged for it, and me pointing out why. You don't have to agree with me or even listen, but if you're going to read and respond, at least have the courtesy of giving me a modicum of respect by trying to understand what I'm saying instead of having some knee jerk reaction that I'm somehow an enemy.

M Most
04-25-2010, 05:39 PM
Mike, I'm going to disagree, respectfully, on a couple of things. I think the demand for affordable, easy DCP authoring is way bigger than what you suggest. A lot of things are happening off-major/off-hollywood/off-established distribution chains. Big fish and tiny fish in the same pool. The high quality standard and the simplicity of it are what's making the platform so attractive to all kinds of projects.

Well, all I can judge by is the two attempts at marketing such a product (Wraptor and Easy DCP). And to my knowledge, neither have been particularly successful. But if someone wants to come along and do an "affordable" (and, by the way, define affordable) package, I'm all eyes and ears.

I know that people here often talk about "nontraditional" distribution and independent theaters. But the truth is that most independent and art house cinemas are projecting either film or HD. There are very, very few that have what we would consider a Digital Cinema projector. I'm not giving you my own opinion, it's what I've been told very directly by the owner of a major L.A. based independent theater chain. The economics are just not there for independent theaters to go to digital cinema projection systems at this point. Quite frankly, it somewhat surprised me too, but it's the truth.

Terrence Meiczinger
04-25-2010, 08:52 PM
Well, all I can judge by is the two attempts at marketing such a product (Wraptor and Easy DCP). And to my knowledge, neither have been particularly successful. But if someone wants to come along and do an "affordable" (and, by the way, define affordable) package, I'm all eyes and ears.

Wraptor never really had a chance, since Quvis was already in financial trouble before it was fully finished and thats really the only sub $1000 commercial package I've come across. CineAsset and Qube are both in the $5000 range. I don't think these are aimed at the independent film maker, but more towards theaters or smaller production houses. It just not cost effective unless you plan on creating a fair amount of content, otherwise it would probably be better to send off and have somebody else convert it.


I know that people here often talk about "nontraditional" distribution and independent theaters. But the truth is that most independent and art house cinemas are projecting either film or HD. There are very, very few that have what we would consider a Digital Cinema projector. I'm not giving you my own opinion, it's what I've been told very directly by the owner of a major L.A. based independent theater chain. The economics are just not there for independent theaters to go to digital cinema projection systems at this point. Quite frankly, it somewhat surprised me too, but it's the truth.

This is very much true. For a theater owner, there is very little incentive to convert to digital cinema. At $100k per screen its expensive and unless you plan on showing 3D, there isn't really much additional revenue at this point. Considering most independents aren't swimming in profits, there are a whole lot of downsides to going digital and relatively few upsides. They would be far better off getting HD projector from Best Buy and use a DVD, PC, etc to play alternative content. Even if you had a digital setup, its going to be easier to go with the DVD or PC rather than DCP.

Antony Smith
04-26-2010, 02:15 AM
Listen, I'm not making anyone out to be the enemy. All I'm saying is that the tools are there to be used. What is the problem? Where do you get the idea that it's for one screening. Does it matter how many screenings?

What I mean by patronising is your "Economic Fact" Comment. Do you not think that people who contribute to this forum are grown up enough to understand this?

Paying less or nothing doesn't, in all cases mean a reduction in quality. I agree, everyone should be welcome here, but surely it's to contribute in a constructive, helpful manner. I apologise for my tone, but it's hard enough out there trying to get content made without all of this nonsense.

I completely understand what you are saying. That's the problem. I will of course afford you the respect when you enter a constructive and positive contribution.

I am a Producer, running a production company that has produced 8 films now, 2 have been shot on a RED Camera that I own. I am experienced enough to know whether a challenge is too big or not and yes it is all about money at the end of the day. That's why I purchased the Red.

I have nothing against opinions, I have plenty of my own but not at the cost of people asking for help.

Antony Smith
04-26-2010, 02:34 AM
Speaking to a number of Cinemas here in the UK it would appear that many changes are going to happen with the advent of Digital Cinema. Many of them are planning "Alternative Entertainment". Big Events, game competitions, conferences etc etc.

Whether or not these things will work is a matter of opinion, but all cinemas will go Digital over time. I think Distributors are going to have to play a bigger part in its spread. The cost that can be saved through not having to produce prints is tremendous in itself and therefore the financial benefits are with them and not the Exhibitors.

I would respectfully disagree with the DVD comments though. My opinion is that if a film-make has waded through the mud and actually got a film made, with a little extra energy I'm sure they can be capable of creating a DCP (for free). From my experience the easiest option is never the best one.

MichaelP
04-26-2010, 03:18 AM
I have been hearing about alternative content coming to theaters for several years now as part of the Digital Cinema changeover. Over the past 4 years there has been a screening of RENT, basically a HD recording of a Broadway show, and during the baseball season here in Boston, they project the HD feed of the game in one of the theaters. That's it.

There was a story not too long ago about a filmmaker who made a deal directly with the theater chain bypassing traditional distribution. Perhaps there will be more of that - theaters becoming distributor but who pays for marketing? At the end of the day, theaters care about filling up the seats to capacity and selling refreshments. And whatever content/spectacle does that is fair game. But if no one knows it's there, then it doesn't really matter. Theaters don't pay for all that air time of trailers, ads in Entertainment Weekly, etc. At most it is the movie grid of showtimes in the local paper. So while technology and digital tools can facilitate the process, marketing dollars drives the butts into the seats. Can that change over time? Sure - Social and viral marketing can predict a certain amount of interest directly to the end consumer but that is more a direct distribution strategy than it is theatrical. If I look at two major films that had huge social/viral going for it - Blair Witch worked, Snakes on a Plane didn't.

I have a DCP of my last film all set and ready to go. Doesn't mean it's being shown in theaters. Now if I want to four wall it at my own expense, then I'm all set.

Michael

Antony Smith
04-26-2010, 03:28 AM
Here! Here! Michael. Couldn't agree more. Alternative distribution is the way for Film makers. Cost is a huge implication to this. These days though, it's not necessarily the amount you spend but how you do it.

Film makers should be in the best positions to sell their film. surely, they would know what market they are aiming for before green lighting the project. Wouldn't you say?

Terrence Meiczinger
04-26-2010, 06:54 AM
I think pretty much everyone here is looking for a cost-effective way to create digital content. I haven't gotten the impression that anyone is against it or even trying to discourage it. Some points have been brought up about the exhibition side versus the production side. The DVD comments were also in that regard, it is easier and more cost-effective for the theater to do this. We can create all the digital content we want, but there still need to be places to show it.

Theater owners for their part would LOVE to have true alternative content. Except for the larger chains, the distributors essentially control what gets played in theaters. They have all kinds of tactics to pressure theaters into doing what they want. The old... "Oh you want Harry Potter? Well, you should consider playing these movies too." Translation... if you don't play our other crappy movies that will do no business for you, then you are off service and won't be getting the biggest movie of the year. What theater is going to refuse that? So, often they have to drop a moving making them money to pickup a total dud movie.

Digital Cinema has the capability to change things. With some hard work, I do think it will happen in time.

M Most
04-26-2010, 07:41 AM
I completely understand what you are saying. That's the problem. I will of course afford you the respect when you enter a constructive and positive contribution.

I have nothing against opinions, I have plenty of my own but not at the cost of people asking for help.

Clearly you do have something against my opinion. And not everything everyone says is going to be positive if what they have to say disagrees with your view of it. But it's always nice to know that after almost 2000 posts here I haven't made any constructive and positive contributions.

Fortunately, I think Jarred, Jim, Graeme, Deanan, and a number of other regular posters here might disagree with that assessment. So I'm not going to post anything more on this topic.

conrad gaunt
04-26-2010, 08:11 AM
Unfortunately, EasyDCP will cost you about 2000 bones to remove the watermark, and you NEED EasyDCP for my particular workflow, but a watermarked DCP is better than no DCP in my situation. From what I can tell, it isn't mainstream enough to have been "cracked" yet. I honestly don't mind paying for it since I intend to use it for commercial use.

Plus, I figured that if people wanted to try to figure out a completely DIY way of making a DCP without using EasyDCP, this method at least provides you with a fully working DCP that could be reverse-engineered to educate one's self on its inner workings. Otherwise, you'd have to deal with trying to bootleg a highly secured studio encrypted one OR trying to translate the DCI Standards documents into practical-use language. Good luck with that! Haha.

What does EasyDCP do? I might be able to save you 2000 bones!?

There is free command line software to convert just about any format into DCI compliant Jpeg2000 files, then wrap them into one big file (not sure what the container file is called). I'll find the link.

found:-

http://www.openjpeg.org/

ps, you can find Mac,Windows and Linux binaries in the download section

if its any use, a GUI would be easy to create. I'm thinking of using it on the back end of my downsampler tool. I've tested it, and it seems to work. There is software for playback too in there I believe, not sure my imac will handle that though (in bootcamp)

ps, Looks to me like open cinema tools might be such a GUI, looks like they're using open jpeg2000

Christopher Lowden
04-26-2010, 12:00 PM
For what it is worth, it strikes me that FCP or more likely Cinema Tool would be a perfect vehicle to impliment a 'free' DCP export utility. It wouldn't take any money from the pros who do a fine tuned DCP. I have not had much interest a DCP project from the apple site, but I reckon that a few of days work by an apple engineer, robbing all the hard opensource work to front some nice user interface, could turn the thoroughly unreliable cinematool app into something useful. Steve Jobs knows stacks about ripping off opensource. Why stop now? (Incidentally, I work only on mac.)

Agustin Goya
04-26-2010, 01:16 PM
Hy Everyone! First off all let me thank you all for this great thread, I love this Forum
I'm trying to make my first DCP with opencinema tools. I've managed to create the CPL and PKL for one reel, but was wondering if there's any way to make a 2+ reel composition using opencinema tools ot if I have to write it by had.
TIA for your help.
Agustin

Antony Smith
04-26-2010, 01:28 PM
Hi Agustin,

I had this issue just a couple of days ago. Wolfgang pointed me in the right direction. It's very simple. You simply add another video.mxf.

You may want to name them video.reel1.mxf sound.reel1.mxf video.reel2.mxf sound.reel2.mxf. write in this order in the .cpl and .pkl .map and the dcp will automatically pick them up in this order. You can check it's working by downloading easyDCP player. It will show you the reel order. It will only play 15 seconds though unless you purchase the license.

Hope this helps.

Let me know if I can be of further help.

Antony

Agustin Goya
04-26-2010, 01:31 PM
Thanks Anthony! What you say makes sense.
Will try it and let you know.
Thanks Again.

Christopher Lowden
04-26-2010, 01:34 PM
Christopher, look at those lines again and you will see where to add the -D flags I suggested to the Makefile (which is not a script and is not "installed") you quote above. Let the coin drop.
.

Wolfgang,
I'm taking a taking a wild stab in the dark here, but I notice that your D flags correspond to the mkpkl.cpp and mkmap.cpp lines. I also figure that ccp must be a comple command, therefore by sheer Sherlockholmes intuition, I offer this solution

CC = g++
LIBS = -lm -lasdcp -lkumu -lcrypto
SRCS = ../../src/
BINS = ../../bin/

all : mkcpl mkpkl mkmap

mkcpl : $(SRCS)mkcpl.cpp
$(CC) -o $(BINS)mkcpl $(SRCS)mkcpl.cpp $(LIBS)

mkpkl : $(SRCS)mkpkl.cpp
$(CC) -o $(BINS)mkpkl $(SRCS)mkpkl.cpp $(LIBS) -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64

mkmap : $(SRCS)mkmap.cpp
$(CC) -o $(BINS)mkmap $(SRCS)mkmap.cpp $(LIBS) -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64

install :
install -v -p -s ../../bin/mkcpl /usr/bin
install -v -p -s ../../bin/mkpkl /usr/bin
install -v -p -s ../../bin/mkmap /usr/bin

Wolfgang Woehl
04-26-2010, 02:35 PM
Right on, Christopher :)

Christopher Lowden
04-26-2010, 03:34 PM
These little advances make the rest of the day worth while. Many thanks

Pavel Klepinin
04-27-2010, 03:16 AM
Mike, I'm going to disagree, respectfully, on a couple of things. I think the demand for affordable, easy DCP authoring is way bigger than what you suggest. A lot of things are happening off-major/off-hollywood/off-established distribution chains. Big fish and tiny fish in the same pool. The high quality standard and the simplicity of it are what's making the platform so attractive to all kinds of projects.

Definitely right. Just simple translation in russian of the OCT's method of DCP creating and a small shell script causes over 7 pages of discussion on my russian forum (although forum was created less a month ago and was cinema specialists-oriented). Most of these people (forum users) are far from compiling/scripting technologies, they are artists. It's all about cheap dcp-making demand.

To be honest, the major way of using OCT in my country (at least out of our capitals) is to recode adverts in DCP-aided projecting systems. Before I've found OCT, my cinema was suggested to recode clips in DCP for about $120 per clip (just for your information in my town average cost of advert's clip production is $300-500). Now it costs almost nothing. In Russia, the oppotunity of advert's showing is simply a matter of independent cinema's survival, such as the one i'm working at. As for my cinema namely, he have an alternative projecting system and we don't use DCP adverts (for now), but the most do.

As for Ferrari... Just think they want to gain a lot of money just for recoding from one format to another (DCP). Not for creating/shooting etc. but for RECODING. Cinemas payed a lot of money for DCP projecting systems and you (as an artist) pay again to show your clip. Is it right? It's like you've bought a car, but you can carry the people you've been sent only. If you want to drive with your friend for exc. you have to transform him first in a proper box to carry. And this transformation costs you a bunch of money.

P.S. An offer for moders and some gurus, Wolfgang, for exc. Maybe we should accumulate all the knowledges (compiling for different OS's and command line's workflow) in an certain post (the first for exc.), in order to help people to find useful information from this thread. Also it will be easy to keep info up-to-date in a single post.

P.P.S. Sorry. Looks like my english becomes even worse. Hope I've understood all my sentences. Sorry about that.

Agustin Goya
04-27-2010, 08:15 AM
Have anybody tested that the color matrix form sRGB to XYZ are ok? How could we apply an XYZ to sRGB matrix to see if the color space conversion is being done right?

Agustin Goya
04-27-2010, 08:19 AM
Hi Agustin,

I had this issue just a couple of days ago. Wolfgang pointed me in the right direction. It's very simple. You simply add another video.mxf.

You may want to name them video.reel1.mxf sound.reel1.mxf video.reel2.mxf sound.reel2.mxf. write in this order in the .cpl and .pkl .map and the dcp will automatically pick them up in this order. You can check it's working by downloading easyDCP player. It will show you the reel order. It will only play 15 seconds though unless you purchase the license.

Hope this helps.

Let me know if I can be of further help.

Antony

That worked great! I try to add a subtitle track now. Don't know if easyDCP Player demo will render them.

Would be any way to encrypt an image track using mxflib?

Antony Smith
04-27-2010, 01:26 PM
Surround Sound.

Here is something that I came up against earlier whilst trying to create an audio mxf file.

Attention! Writing SMPTE audio without channel assignment property (See option -l)

I wasn't sure but this left me insecure about the audio file.

I then added -l 5.1 before each sound file eg. Whole command:

asdcp-test -v -L -c s1.mxf -l 5.1 L.wav -l 5.1 R.wav -l 5.1 C.wav -l 5.1 LFE.wav -l 5.1 Ls.wav -l 5.1 Rs.wav

this did come up without the above warning. Would I be right in assuming that the 5.1 channels are now assigned properly?

Many thanks

Antony

Antony Smith
04-27-2010, 01:52 PM
That worked great! I try to add a subtitle track now. Don't know if easyDCP Player demo will render them.

Would be any way to encrypt an image track using mxflib?

Agustin,

This is pretty much where I am at the moment. Sorry, I don't have any further info on this. If I find out I shall post here.

Antony

Christopher Lowden
04-27-2010, 02:39 PM
Antony
I'm still struggling with getting the final xmls. I have done my best to find all the elements of the asdcp and OCT and reinstalled as Terence and Wolfgang say but I continue to get the response below. The machine continues to create an empty xml file called PROJ.pkl.xml. What were your code lines for creating the xmls?

sh-3.2# cd ICARE_DCP/
sh-3.2# mkpkl --issuer DumDumFilms --annotation DCPFULLNAME \ PROJ.video.mxf PROJ.audio.mxf PROJ.cpl.xml > PROJ.pkl.xml
PROJ.video.mxf: Invalid CompositionPlaylist file.

Agustin Goya
04-27-2010, 03:29 PM
Antony
I'm still struggling with getting the final xmls. I have done my best to find all the elements of the asdcp and OCT and reinstalled as Terence and Wolfgang say but I continue to get the response below. The machine continues to create an empty xml file called PROJ.pkl.xml. What were your code lines for creating the xmls?

sh-3.2# cd ICARE_DCP/
sh-3.2# mkpkl --issuer DumDumFilms --annotation DCPFULLNAME \ PROJ.video.mxf PROJ.audio.mxf PROJ.cpl.xml > PROJ.pkl.xml
PROJ.video.mxf: Invalid CompositionPlaylist file.

The problem is in the "\" before PROJ.video.mxf, the command sould read:

mkpkl --issuer DumDumFilms --annotation DCPFULLNAME PROJ.video.mxf PROJ.audio.mxf PROJ.cpl.xml > PROJ.pkl.xml
if you are running it from your media files folder.
Hope this helps.

Antony Smith
04-27-2010, 03:59 PM
Yes, i agree with Agustin.

Let us know if it works!

Antony Smith
04-27-2010, 04:03 PM
Surround sound,

by the way, the command above for 5.1 surround is correct and it has worked. you must add the -l 5.1 before your file name for it to map the audio channel correctly. This also applies to 6.1 and 7.1

Antony

Christopher Lowden
04-28-2010, 10:54 AM
Gentlemen. I've now got the 6 files in a folder. That means I have managed it. Don't know if it works, but getting this far is fantastic. Many thanks for everyone's help.
Christopher (Bloody miracle if you ask me).

PS I have revised the DCP for neophyte's thread on this forum to explain how I got there.

Agustin Goya
04-28-2010, 10:59 AM
Use easyDCP player from fraunhofer, you'll be able to load and play 15" of you home made DCP

Antony Smith
04-28-2010, 12:56 PM
Congratulations Christopher. That's great News. It feels like an exclusive club doesn't it???

Christopher Lowden
04-29-2010, 02:13 PM
Yup. Just like the mile high club ... just a shed load more useful.

Now for the next mountain to climb. An opensource DCP player. I can't tell you how frustrated I was to only see the first 15 secs on EasyDCP. I couldn't even check if the sync was right.

On the other hand, it worked, so that is still a fantastic moment.

Carsten Kurz
04-30-2010, 01:06 AM
Can someone tell me why everyone needs to compile their own Mac version of asdcp-test instead of doing it once and then make it available for download?

Nothing bad about learning to compile your own software in general, but this is a simple converter utility. After all, RED is not expecting us to compile RED Cine-X or other stuff.

- Carsten

Christopher Lowden
04-30-2010, 04:54 AM
Good question.
In my humble, neophyte experience, the asdcp-test files that others gave me did not work on their own. I had to compile them to get a result. the same went for the OCT elements.

Christopher Lowden
04-30-2010, 04:55 AM
Also, these elements are in opensource developement, by crazy folk that do it in their spare time. They are not finished products.

Carsten Kurz
04-30-2010, 07:53 AM
I had been using the windows binaries so far. These you just copy into your preferred path and there they work more or less standalone. Why wouldn't this work for the Mac OS X versions?

- Carsten

Christopher Lowden
04-30-2010, 09:57 AM
Not saying that they shouldn't work. I'm just saying that it was not that easy for me. Also, I notice that for many of the installs, libs were installed that were consulted by the mac.

Christopher Lowden
04-30-2010, 02:14 PM
Sniffing about for DCP utilities, I stumbled across dcplint at sourceforge. The site seems empty. Anybody know what it is?

Terrence Meiczinger
04-30-2010, 04:17 PM
Good question.
In my humble, neophyte experience, the asdcp-test files that others gave me did not work on their own. I had to compile them to get a result. the same went for the OCT elements.

It all depends on how they were compiled. If they were compiled with dynamic or shared libraries, then you need copies of all the libraries on your system as well. If the tools were compiled statically, then the executable includes the portions of the libraries it needs, which eliminates the need to have local copies. There are pluses and minuses to both approaches.

Christopher Lowden
05-03-2010, 02:10 PM
Does anyone know if EasyDCP player compensates for the XYZ colorspace to show the right colours? I am looking at my j2c files and they have a strange kakhi green colour shift. When I look at the DCP made from the j2c files in EasyDCP player, I have the same colour shift, and not a correct colour interpretation. Is this normal or did something go wrong? (I hope not)

Chris Swinbanks
05-03-2010, 05:42 PM
Does anyone know if EasyDCP player compensates for the XYZ colorspace to show the right colours? I am looking at my j2c files and they have a strange kakhi green colour shift. When I look at the DCP made from the j2c files in EasyDCP player, I have the same colour shift, and not a correct colour interpretation. Is this normal or did something go wrong? (I hope not)How are you viewing the images?
The Player (licensed version) has an XYZ to RGB converter if you are viewing in RGB colour space, eg on a Dreamcolor monitor setup to emulate DCI-P3 (or rec709 if that's the route you've taken).
Otherwise you need to view in DCI-P3 XYZ colour space (eg Barco or similar DCI spec projector).
In the unlicensed demo version, the converter is greyed-out....

Christopher Lowden
05-03-2010, 10:38 PM
So, in short, on my Apple Cinema Display setup in a standard way will not show the right colours.
But I can personalise the colour space on my mac. Maybe I can setup the right colourspace on the screen. This could be the next challenge.

Chris Swinbanks
05-04-2010, 12:52 AM
So, in short, on my Apple Cinema Display setup in a standard way will not show the right colours.Correct, not unless you have the licensed version (Easy DCP Player) and invoke the XYZ->RGB conversion.

But I can personalise the colour space on my mac. Maybe I can setup the right colourspace on the screen. This could be the next challenge.Glenn Kennel's very comprehensive book (Color & Mastering for Digital Cinema) has all the info you need about the colour spaces, white points, primary values etc. I don't know whether the Apple Cinema Display covers the gamut you need, or allows the precise colorimetry adjustments.... maybe someone else could chime in on that.

cheers

Riku Naskali
05-04-2010, 04:36 AM
Hi,

Is it possible to create a 3D MXF Interop DCP with opencinematools that works with Dolby DSS100?

I've read some conflicting information about this. All information points out that you can create these files in 2D, but there could be some incompatibility with 3D? The following thread is what I'm talking about:

http://code.google.com/p/opencinematools/issues/detail?id=17

Brian Lucas
05-05-2010, 10:04 AM
Why are colors so different in final DCP to the original master?
I made a test with demo version of EasyDCP.

Chris Swinbanks
05-05-2010, 04:28 PM
Why are colors so different in final DCP to the original master?
I made a test with demo version of EasyDCP.DCP's are in XYZ colour space, not RGB, so everything appears to have a greenish cast on an RGB monitor. Unfortunately, you have to do a shit-load of reading to get comfortable with DCP's.... I'm part way there... must tackle encryption at some point!
Digital Cinema projectors normally play in XYZ colour space, but can be switched between either one (or 709, or.....)
Oh, and unless they've changed the software in the demo recently, Easy DCP normally expects rec709 colour gamut input, not P3 (wide gamut)... its in their notes, but I haven't checked for a while.

Chris Swinbanks
05-05-2010, 05:10 PM
Well would be good to know before I spend $700 :) and then get nothing.

Ill investigate further. thanks Martin!Adding 2c worth to some older posts I missed...
A couple of months ago we put a copy of Wraptor on a legacy Intel Mac... its "legacy" because all our other systems have moved on, but we have a need to occasionally generate a test DCP from Final Cut source material (rec709), and this does the job nicely, with some caveats of having to prepare the image files to correct size beforehand... there are things broken in Wraptor's final version.
The Mac is still useful for tape capture and other things, just can't be linked into our main edit systems.
cheers

M Most
05-05-2010, 05:56 PM
So, in short, on my Apple Cinema Display setup in a standard way will not show the right colours.
But I can personalise the colour space on my mac. Maybe I can setup the right colourspace on the screen. This could be the next challenge.

If you have After Effects CS3 or higher loaded on a Mac, there should be some profiles available under the Displays/Color control panel. One of those should be Digital Cinema Package XYZ, Gamma 2.6. You could try that, it should give you a reasonable facsimile of what you're looking for.

Brian Lucas
05-05-2010, 05:57 PM
So the only way to see if you have done is OK is by playing your DCP's on theater projector...
Does easyDCP make the final encryption?
I'm new at this...

Thanks

M Most
05-05-2010, 05:58 PM
So the only way to see if you have done is OK is by playing your DCP's on theater projector...

Basically, yes. But that would be the case even if you were projecting from a Quicktime file, a Bluray disk, or an HD videotape.

Pavel Klepinin
05-06-2010, 06:16 AM
So the only way to see if you have done is OK is by playing your DCP's on theater projector...

Thanks

Fortunately, no. On my russian forum user named Alexander from Karisma Films production (http://www.karismafilms.fi/) has just told me, that there is a wonderfull player named Stereoscopic Player (http://www.3dtv.at/Index_en.aspx), that can DCP correcting colors for RGB monitor.
I think it aslo can show your dcp project as anaglyph video so you can check your depth effect as well.

Download Stereoscopic Player (http://www.3dtv.at/Index_en.aspx).

Wolfgang Woehl
05-06-2010, 02:37 PM
The Stereoscopic Player's dev, Peter Wimmer, has put quite some effort into optimizations of openjpeg's _decoder_ sections (see http://groups.google.com/group/openjpeg/browse_thread/thread/f363f253209dc418/f7753f4dadd74cb0?show_docid=f7753f4dadd74cb0 for general discussion and http://code.google.com/p/openjpeg/source/detail?r=557 for code). These will move upstream and allow for significantly faster decoding.

Still, because realtime decoding of 2K JPEG2000 essence@24fps is a beast of a workload for any poor little general-purpose cpu Wimmer is using a number of clever fallbacks plus load-balancing to pull it off. Needs fast iron.

Brian Lucas
05-06-2010, 04:40 PM
Thank you, Pavel.

Christopher Lowden
05-06-2010, 11:12 PM
For those that want some very basic info on what XYZ colourspace is, try this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0-qoXOCOow

Brian Lucas
05-09-2010, 10:56 PM
A question:
Is copying the DCP into Ext2 or Ext3 the final process?
Is that the encryption?
I always thought that encryption was a process made to protect the film in a way that no one could handle the data but digital projectors...
Any explanation will be appreciated.

Thanks

Christopher Lowden
05-09-2010, 11:03 PM
ect2 and ext3 are linux disk formats. Most servers I have seen read NTFS and FAT32.
I have no idea about encrytption as my film is not worth stealing. Actually, if anyone is interested in stealing it, I would be very flattered. You can show a film without it being encrypted.

Christopher Lowden
05-10-2010, 10:35 AM
Just a quick note to say that I found a simple way to view XYZ colourspace files in RGB to check that they look alright. Using After Effects, I loaded my some tiff in XYZ and was able to view them correctly on RGB monitor. The details on how can be found in the document
ae_color_mgmt_wkflow.pdf

at

http://www.adobe.com/devnet/aftereffects/articles/color_management_workflow/ae_color_mgmt_wkflow.pdf

Wolfgang Woehl
05-10-2010, 11:18 AM
I always thought that encryption was a process made to protect the film in a way that no one could handle the data but digital projectors...

You thought right. Basically it works like this:

a) The DCPs content (trackfiles) gets encrypted. Result: encrypted trackfiles and a key. If you have the key you can decrypt the content. Anywhere. Like on your laptop.

b) You keep the key in a very safe place. Now you can distribute your encrypted DCP to pretty much anyone. No playback without the key. If you lose the key all distributed DCPs would become unusable. Unfortunate, but not disastrous. You can make a new encrypted DCP and a new key.

c) Key's crucial (You want noone to have it) so when you want to give it to someone you encrypt the key with the public part of a digital cinema server's certificate. The secret part of that certificate is stored in another (supposedly) very safe place: secured storage on the cinema server board.

d) This becomes a KDM or key delivery message and you could put it on billboards. Only the targeted cinema server can make use of it. It decrypts the KDM to get the content key, checks its validity (timespan) and decrypts the content upon playback. This relation to a specific cinema server gives distributors the fine-grained playback control they need.

Major distributors would probably segment content keys, I don't know.

It's a neat system, in theory. You only need 2 safe places and a couple of guardians (for example a list of trusted devices and a mechanism to revoke trust). The communication channel between the 2 safe places can be quite insecure: DCPs on disks anyone can copy, KDMs via email anyone can read.

In practice, I guess and I'm speculating, there's an Emmentaler-like landscape of pitfalls, lurking just around the corner:

Implementation flaws can weaken key strength severely (Many successful crypto-attacks in the past were based on weak key generation).

Very safe places are expensive and hard to build and maintain and get impractical fast. People seem to tend to want to bypass security wherever it gets in their way of work. So they take work home, on memory sticks, which they lose (Remember the London bloke who lost health insurance data of, what, all british subjects in the tube?). People work on non-authorized copies of data etc.

Most dangerous pitfall, in my book: Obscurity. If you don't communicate how you handle security-related work then it's only a matter of time until a certified and theoretically safe path diverges. Workarounds and improvisation and a blinding fog make you stumble around. Noone can help you because you can't talk about practices in the facility. Because it's so freaking secret. This is not a rant, mind you. Look at the SMPTE standards. They don't describe exactly how it's done. Obscurity. Dead-end technology-wise, I think. Loads of examples.

Mike, what do you think about this? Am I totally off and standards are observed precisely and practices are exchanged on a regular basis in order to check and adjust deviations?

M Most
05-10-2010, 12:05 PM
Look at the SMPTE standards. They don't describe exactly how it's done. Obscurity. Dead-end technology-wise, I think. Loads of examples.

Mike, what do you think about this? Am I totally off and standards are observed precisely and practices are exchanged on a regular basis in order to check and adjust deviations?

All of the security in the DCI specification and the SMPTE implementation of it is based on FIPS 140-2 (I'm going on memory here, I think it's level 2), which is a standard published by the National Institute of Standards and Technology, an entity run by the U.S. federal government. Everything about it is documented and publicly available. In fact, everything in the Digital Cinema specification is based on existing open standards, that was part of the DCI mandate.

Wolfgang Woehl
05-10-2010, 12:38 PM
Yes, open standards, I'm aware of that. Yet I'm speculating about implementation pitfalls and practices and whether the exact process of protecting content is subjected to (transparent) scrutiny. Which -- I would think -- is crucial to security.

Brian Lucas
05-10-2010, 02:15 PM
How do we encrypt a DCP?
Is it like zipping a file with a pasword? that can only be unzipped by entering the password?
Which app is used for this?

Pavel Klepinin
05-11-2010, 12:06 AM
How do we encrypt a DCP?
Is it like zipping a file with a password? that can only be unzipped by entering the password?
As I understood in general the process is:
You (publisher) encrypt your content with your secret (private) key. Thats the main key you can generate all kinds of keys using this, and keep it secure of course.
You generate the public (in terms of open, unsecure) key for a particular cinema (projecting system), so this cinema can use it for decryption only.
So zipping with passwords means 2 equal (and need to be kept as secret) keys. And this system allows you to use 2 different keys for encryption and decryption accordingly. And the second key is no need to be in a safe place, it can be openly distributed.
So clip is decrypted "on-line" when it's projected. And it can be decrypted only if publisher made a key for your certain projecting system, so you cannot use the same key in a different cinema.
As I understood.

Brian Lucas
05-11-2010, 01:05 AM
This is too complicated...
Encryption, decryption... this is driving me nuts!

Pavel Klepinin
05-11-2010, 03:22 AM
So, if your main question is this:

Which app is used for this?
The answer is: As I know there is no opensource program to do this (encryption). Maybe easyDCP+ can, I don't know.

Brian Lucas
05-11-2010, 09:24 AM
I've just found this:

http://www.truecrypt.org/

http://www.nchsoftware.com/encrypt/index.html

I don't if that would do the job in this particular case, but they are free.

M Most
05-11-2010, 09:48 AM
This is too complicated...
Encryption, decryption... this is driving me nuts!

Unless you're manufacturing commercial DCP's for major theatrical distribution, encryption is not something you should be thinking about or concerned with.

Brian Lucas
05-11-2010, 12:11 PM
I assume in the near future, films festival will accept DCP's, and I think it's not a good idea to send your DCP's to different festivals without encryption.
This is my only concern about this.

M Most
05-11-2010, 12:15 PM
I assume in the near future, films festival will accept DCP's, and I think it's not a good idea to send your DCP's to different festivals without encryption.
This is my only concern about this.

Since festivals often project on more than one screen, you would need separate KDM's for each and every server that's going to be used. I'm not so sure the festival promoters would supply you with that in advance. And I'm also not so sure that you really need to worry about something like piracy at a large festival (which would be the only ones likely to use DCP's as delivery elements), especially for something that hasn't been sold to a distributor yet (which is the case by definition for almost any festival entry I know of).

Terrence Meiczinger
05-12-2010, 07:56 PM
Since festivals often project on more than one screen, you would need separate KDM's for each and every server that's going to be used. I'm not so sure the festival promoters would supply you with that in advance. And I'm also not so sure that you really need to worry about something like piracy at a large festival (which would be the only ones likely to use DCP's as delivery elements), especially for something that hasn't been sold to a distributor yet (which is the case by definition for almost any festival entry I know of).

This isn't necessarily the case. A single KDM can contain all of the keys for a particular location. This is how it is done for theaters, so they can move content from one screen to another.

Christopher Lowden
05-13-2010, 02:38 AM
Does anyone know what the subtitle file should be called and how it is integrated into the XML?

PS. Does anyone know where I can get an FCP XML subtitle file transcoded to TI CineCanvas. I am willing to pay for the transcode? I just have a need to buy Belle Nuit (www.belle-nuit.com) or MacCaption (www.cpcweb.com) for a one shot