Underwater housing for Red One

[TheWildman]

I'm an underwater videographer in South East Aisa shooting on compressed HDV, I'm very interested in the Red and what it can do for me and my company, my question is, Is Red planning on making or having someone other company make an underwater housing for the camera.

can anyone help with this.

cheers

[Russ Campbell]

As far as I know, housings are going to be developed by Gates and Aquavideo as soon as the cameras are available. A lot is going to depend on the lens choices that we all want to use, be it the Red 18-50 behind the SWP44 port of Gates or SLR lenses like the Canon 10-20mm behind a dome port. I am expecting my RED in February, so hopefully all this will be figured out by then.

[Poi Boy]

someone will certainly make one; just have to wait...I hate waiting !
Aloha
-A

[Mark Thorpe]

Go here: http://205.234.134.160/forum/showthread.php?t=562 to the User Groups section. There's an Underwater Users Group. Some housing manufacturers or references to those prepping housing s are contained in the 300+ postings.

Cheers,
Mark.

[TheWildman]

So let me ask a question everyone seems to think Gates housings are what Red are going to use, is this a definate ??? why not Light and Motion ??? Why not Amphibico??? I have used Gates VX2000 housing and i'm not impressed with the usability of it where Amphibico and Light and Motion has more flexability, true its electronic so prone to more servicing and problems but i found gates to be a little to slow for my needs.

Also theres seems to be talk of Nikon ??? but as red has stated, Canon is going to be the lens they use.

Are these comments all wishful thinking or is this in carved in stone.

If i were red i would reconsider going with Gate or Let a second housing manufacturer also build the housing in an electronic form. so to give your clientele a choice. I'm not the only one who is thinking like this many others in our film company and community feel that Gates isnt the option for Red, especially from a ease of use and functionality point of few.

As for Aquavideo ... no comment.

[Mark Thorpe]

Could one of ther moderators take this to the Underwater Group location?

Just a request but I guess thats where it would be best suited.

The Wildman:
Seems that the only serious housing manufacturer to step up to the plate is Gates and Aquavideo. Its the policy of any housing manufacturer to decide which cameras they will opt to house. I cant think why anyone here would have the reasons as to why other companies are not, at this point in time, looking to develop housings. If you'd prefer L&M or an Amphibico I suggest you go request these companies to produce a custom housing. I don't think it's very fair or professional, of you to publicly criticize any line of underwater housing products. Gates as a company have had many hundreds, if not thousands, of professional broadcast entities using their products with only good things to say about it. Each to their own.

The beauty with Gates is that its all manual, maybe that's what turns you off. I personally prefer all manual, nothing to crap out in the field. How many times have you heard stories of electronic handgrips breaking down, malfunctioning etc and thus halting a shoot? Too many to think about. You've only got to take a look at: www.wetpixel.com to check these kinds of stories out. Whilst you are there also check on the threads pertaining to the customer service of entities which you select above those whom you choose to discredit. You'll see many, many postings of unsavory experiences and delays due to non existent customer care from, amongst other, the companies you mention.

I'm sorry but I have never been an Aquavideo housing owner but having spoken with the CEO frequently here on REDUser all I can say is that his transparency and apparent attention to detail and professionalism is creditable and worthy of recognition.

Cheers,
Mark.

[TheWildman]

Thanks for your feedback Mark, I was wanting someone to shine some light on the subject other than peoples wish lists, so thank you for your Honesty and details, I Apologies If i seemed to be discrediting The manufacturers, i was just talking from personnel experience, It may have come across wrong.

Like you say each to their own.

[Michael Hastings]

I'm not impressed with the usability of it [the manual housing] where Amphibico and Light and Motion has more flexability, true its electronic so prone to more servicing and problems but i found gates to be a little to slow for my needs.

Also theres seems to be talk of Nikon ??? but as red has stated, Canon is going to be the lens they use.




So let me ask a question everyone seems to think Gates housings are what Red are going to use, is this a definate ??? First of all, nothing is carved in stone.


As far as Gates and Canon being what RED is going to use, I don't think there has been anything official from RED on any of that. I think there was some direct talks with Gates early on but I think that dropped off and everyone (i.e. the housing manufacturers) are on their own as to what, when, where, how, to develop a RED housing. Since I personally have been a RED reservation holder (#206) for over 15 months, I have made it known that making an underwater housing for it has been a priority since the beginning. Since we have a history of being able to get housings to market quickly, and since I have also been working with one of the very early reservation holders (lower than 10), I think you will find we will have housings available before almost anyone has a chance to get a camera.

With that said you sort of need to rethink a lot of what you may have been used to in the past. RED is nothing like most of the video cameras you have probably been using. It is more like an Arriflex film camera than say a Sony Z1. There are essentially no automatic functions, and since it shoots raw, there really isn't much in the way of adjustments you would make like white balance, picture profiles, etc. So the typical Light and Motion and Amphibico type control - which is all based on the Sony LAN-C protocol (and which is why you don't see them making housings for Panasonic, JVC, etc.) - doesn't have much relevance with RED. There will be some desire for camera adjustment for frame rates, shutter angle (which the vast majority of even pro underwater video shooters have never dealt with before) and possibly gain (although because it is raw you are probably better to leave that for post), and we will offer some control for that, probably through the USB control. However, since some of that won't even be implemented on earlier REDs, it may have to come later.

Since there is no camera control of the lens, LAN-C type control is irrelevant there as well.

RED uses interchangeable lenses like a broadcast video camera, so as with the broadcast and film systems from Pace, AquaVideo, Hydroflex, Gates?, etc.. you generally choose a lens that is appropriate for the job rather than using a wide converter, or a Fathom type port which is just an underwater corrected wide converter. Focus, iris, zoom are controlled either by gearing or the use of pots to control electric servos (that is the typical method for broadcast video lenses used in Pace and AquaVideo housings). Hydroflex film housings often use gears on cine lenses, but it is likely that housings for RED will more commonly use either something like the Canon still 10-22mm on the Birger electronic mount so will use pots to control the Birger mount; or if cine lenses are used servo follow focus type servo motor drives will be used. Again, these are pot controlled like the broadcast video lenses. (Birger will be supporting Nikon lenses in the future so Nikons will be a possibility but up to now their widest is 12mm - which is only borderline wide enough on the RED).

As far as lenses, everyone would like to have a Zeiss 8mm ultra prime plus a nice short zoom - but the Zeiss 8mm is $25000 and a RED zoom is $6500 but not really wide enough. For informational purposes: to get the field of view of a Nikonos 15mm (which is really a 20mm) one needs about a 12mm on the RED. Since most of us in the past 10 years have been shooting even wider than that with typical high quality underwater video systems you can see why we are pushing to get to 10mm, which on the RED is like a 16mm on a 35mm film SLR camera.

As you think about the above and analyze what the RED really is, you start to realize that the housing issues are fairly simple and straightforward. RED is essentially an extremely high resolution, raw motion picture capture device. You need a rugged, reliable, fairly compact housing that provides good quality dome ports, with interchangeability for different lenses or the use of flat ports for macro - plus a good way to view it (and the most likely way to do view it - no matter what housing configuration used - will be an externally housed RED LCD. The RED LCD is sized right, has the highest resolution, and interfaces perfectly.) Beyond that the needs are fairly simple. We can certainly make a more rectangular type housing like a L&M or Amphibico (we do it for the broadcast VARICAM and F900 style cameras) but the shape of the base RED camera itself works very well with the less expensive cylindrical housings that we make, so the initial housings will almost certainly be cylindrical - whether in aluminum or pvc. I have done a fair amount of calculations that show there is little to be gained with other shapes, so there is a good possibility that will be the final shape as well. More extensive camera setup control will be fairly easy to add in the future through an electronic interface like what we do for broadcast cameras, or through simple mechanical controls - since we don't even know yet what direct access buttons RED will give us. The programmable/instant updateable nature of the RED means that there will almost certainly be some user set buttons that could provide one touch access to other frame rates and shutter angles - a few presets would cover almost everyones needs (particularly since most underwater shooters have never had access to this since until the HVX200, the cameras didn't even have these controls.)

I've tried to summarize some of the key points, but you will find a tremendous amount of in depth discussion over in the underwater bubble blowers group.

The main thing is you really have to get your head around two things: the most important being that RED shoots RAW and that changes everything as far as worrying about camera settings, filters and the like.

The second thing is that it uses interchangeable lenses. This has been dealt with for many years with broadcast cameras, 35mm movie cameras, IMAX cameras, etc. (and for people with very large budgets), yet we virtually always come back to dome ports with extreme wide angle lenses with flat port interchangeability for macro. It doesn't mean that FATHOM-type lenses are impossible, but they aren't as necessary (since you are not trying to fix a zoom lens that is an integral part of the camera) and from an economic/engineering standpoint it generally doesn't add up for the larger cine/broadcast type lenses.

[Ken Corben]

... I was wanting someone to shine some light on the subject other than peoples wish lists, so thank you for your Honesty and details, I Apologies If i seemed to be discrediting The manufacturers, i was just talking from personnel experience, It may have come across wrong.

Hey Wildman,

If the "subject" is compressed HDV vs 4K Redcode for underwater imaging I would think that the end goal defines the answer.

For professionals seeking to produce programs or provide images to broadcasters than one must think global and that means HD. Specifically, looking at the technical requirements for broadcasting HD - HDV is not accepted. Thus the options are 720p Panasonic, 1080 Sony or now Redcode 4K. If your company is investing in the gear in lieu of renting then RED is a no brainer IMO based on cost and future proofing one's investment.

RE: HOUSING QUESTION

Much has been discussed on this topic already. To address your query, RED has not announced a RED housing on this board - YET. Jim et al are capable of anything, HOWEVER, a prudent business man would not invest the time and money to ramp up for such a niche market. It could be outsourced but the margins wouldn't justify the means. There's also licensing and other options but realistically, how many people on the planet will own U/W Red systems?

That leaves a summary of the known players as:

1) Custom Housing
2) Gates
3) Aquavideo

Will Amphibico or L&M enter the market? It's possible. There will be a few redusers that will acquire and shoot with one or all of the above and may, like me, graciously share their findings here on reduser.

No doubt, the most critical element in shooting 4K underwater is the glass as discussed in detail in the underwater forum. A question we hope to answer during LART.

Hope this helps,

Sharky

[Ken Corben]

Well,

If you read Mike's post #8 then you know where my money is going and why.

Sharky

[Michael Hastings]

Well,

If you read Mike's post #8 then you know where my money is going and why.

Sharky

Sharky:

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I need to catch up with you and the LART situation and other stuff - there's been a million posts on this board in the past couple weeks. As you know this is the busiest time of year for me and then about two weeks ago my shoulder really started hurting and I thought I tore something - anyway after MRI it turns out I have two herniated disks in my neck that are impinging on the nerve. I should be alright with a cortisone shot and some therapy, but I really got behind with work and the REDUSER board, but I'll catch up with you guys here shortly.

[Steve Tammi]

Sharky:

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I need to catch up with you and the LART situation and other stuff - there's been a million posts on this board in the past couple weeks. As you know this is the busiest time of year for me and then about two weeks ago my shoulder really started hurting and I thought I tore something - anyway after MRI it turns out I have two herniated disks in my neck that are impinging on the nerve. I should be alright with a cortisone shot and some therapy, but I really got behind with work and the REDUSER board, but I'll catch up with you guys here shortly.

I am still up for a visit before LART if the logistics work out.

Best,

Steve

[Ken Corben]

I am still up for a visit before LART if the logistics work out.

Steve,

That is a definite consideration. Travelocity is showing $330 for RT air Memphis - Miami with 2 nights hotel. That's cheaper than my flight alone to visit Mike in FL with #8 so I would consider paying this towards the development fund - taking one for the team. Mike will need a Berger mount, the Canon lens and a Zeiss prime for building the prototype housing. I think he can wrangle the lenses if Gibby and I can provide the "LART loaner" Berger mount for measuring - that may work.

We will need to evaluate the shipping times and LART schedule, e.g., do all 50 cameras ship on same day? If Mike is feeling better by then and can squeeze it into his schedule it would be phenomenal to include some underwater pool tests of the Canon VS Zeiss on res charts etc ( I have a heated pool at my pad).

Given nearly 8000 views on the underwater forum I'd say there is significant interest in knowing the answer/opinion on the lens issue for RED U/W.

Sharky

[Steve Tammi]

Mike will need a Berger mount, the Canon lens and a Zeiss prime for building the prototype housing. I think he can wrangle the lenses if Gibby and I can provide the "LART loaner" Berger mount for measuring - that may work.


If necessary I can easily grab some Canon glass from here (http://www.lensrentals.com/) since they are in Memphis.



We will need to evaluate the shipping times and LART schedule, e.g., do all 50 cameras ship on same day? If Mike is feeling better by then and can squeeze it into his schedule it would be phenomenal to include some underwater pool tests of the Canon VS Zeiss on res charts etc ( I have a heated pool at my pad).


Any supermodels available to hold the res chart? :biggrin: Mmmmm, heated pool, I just throw a cover over mine when it gets cold.



Given nearly 8000 views on the underwater forum I'd say there is significant interest in knowing the answer/opinion on the lens issue for RED U/W.

Sharky

Agreed.

Steve

[Mark Thorpe]

Thanks for your feedback Mark, I was wanting someone to shine some light on the subject other than peoples wish lists, so thank you for your Honesty and details, I Apologies If i seemed to be discrediting The manufacturers, i was just talking from personnel experience, It may have come across wrong.

Like you say each to their own.
Hey no problem. Thats the beauty of a public forum, opinions flow freely. It's just nice to keep them professional and courteous. Edited Section: My Bad!!

Hope you find what you're looking for in the housing department.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Michael Hastings]

I am still up for a visit before LART if the logistics work out.

Best,

Steve


Steve,

If Mike is feeling better by then and can squeeze it into his schedule it would be phenomenal to include some underwater pool tests of the Canon VS Zeiss on res charts etc ( I have a heated pool at my pad).

Sharky

Didn't mean to be too whiney with the neck issue, just explaining why I am a little behind in communication. I am still up for anything we can do to expedite making that first housing. As far as Travel here I am in Weston (33326) which is a suburb about 12 miles due west of the Ft. Lauderdale airport and about 30 miles from Miami airport - FLL is a lot nicer to fly into and particularly to drive to and from, but I can pick you up from either place. Weston has become a little corporate haven so we have a few of the Residence type motels here.

I am also definitely for lens pool tests at the LART - my neck isn't that bad (and even if it is that's why we have vicodin.) My brother lives in Manhattan Beach so I'm happy to come out and spend a few days at the LART tests and can stay with him. Let me know if you hear something more definite on the LART dates. September is good timing for me for both making a proto housing and for the LART as usually it is kind of a slow month for housing sales.



Given nearly 8000 views on the underwater forum I'd say there is significant interest in knowing the answer/opinion on the lens issue for RED U/W.

Sharky

Since I've already picked my housing manufacturer (LOL), the lens issue is THE issue for me.

BTW I love your quote: so tell us, is Herbert the nuclear physicist Dad, brother, uncle?

[Ken Corben]

I am still up for anything we can do to expedite making that first housing.

I am also definitely for lens pool tests at the LART - my neck isn't that bad (and even if it is that's why we have vicodin.) My brother lives in Manhattan Beach so I'm happy to come out and spend a few days at the LART tests and can stay with him. Let me know if you hear something more definite on the LART dates. September is good timing for me for both making a proto housing and for the LART as usually it is kind of a slow month for housing sales.

That's great news Mike and Steve. I'll need to confer with Gibby. Once we have the ship dates, LART schedule and team members confirmed we may be able to include the pool tests of rez charts with a Canon 10-22 and Zeiss prime. That will be an excellent addition to the info to be shared with redusers.



Since I've already picked my housing manufacturer (LOL), the lens issue is THE issue for me.

Sure you're not going to buy a Gates housing Mike? LMAO


BTW I love your quote: so tell us, is Herbert the nuclear physicist Dad, brother, uncle?

Grandpa was the eminent physicist and that was his favorite paraphrased quote at family dinners after I gave up medicine to be a filmmaker.



Any supermodels available to hold the res chart?
Steve

No, but my wife is totally HOT...