1st problems in the field...

[Jannard]

We report the good news and...

We encountered over-heating problems today in the "jungles" of Spain. Our handmade prototypes struggled in the 100+ degree temperature and all day shooting. At the end, they kept "Bombay" and "Romeo" going with ice packs and fanning. These handmade prototypes have the old sensor design without the Peltier sensor cooling system that will be found on the production cameras. But it was a bit of an eye opener nonetheless. We hadn't had problems like this in NZ. But this is why we chose to do testing in the field of battle before production. What we learned:

1. The Peltier cooling system is mandatory.

2. If you shoot in the extreme heat for extended periods, cover the camera from direct sun. Short recording times don't seem to present a problem. All day might depending on how much improvement we can find through our engineering effort. Bring a fan.

We have our engineering team on it. If there are other things we can do to mitigate the problem, we will. We do expect major improvement with the new sensor cooling system.

Everything else seems rosey.

Field testing is designed to shake out the camera. We expected some issues to arise. Glad we still have some time to work on it.

Jim

[IAN SUN]

Was the schedule impacted by the overheating problem?

[Manfred Lopez]

Wow... Wasn't someone talking about potential overheating issues in the uderwater thread... But I am happy that this is comming out now before production models are shipped. Thanks Jim for your openness. We really apreciate it.

[Jannard]

Was the schedule impacted by the overheating problem?

Nope... the SS team knew that they were shaking down our cameras live on a film set and have been very supportive. The cameras finished the day working fine with the help from a frozen water bottle. Tomorrow there will be zip-lock baggies supervising the action. It is really hot there. I think the longest they were down was about 10 minutes. They are shooting out in the middle of nowhere and there isn't a 7-11 around the corner, so water bottles were the best they could do.

Jim

[Tonaci Tran]

Talk about being upfront about everything. Again, thanks for the update.

[Scott Webster]

Any shifting backfocus due to the temperature?

[reality]

Great news Jim, thank you for the update. On Superman and Apocalypto the cameras overheated constantly, and they were "production" cameras.

Glad you went with peltier (quiet). The F900 still overheats and it has 3 incredibly loud fans.

[Jannard]

Any shifting backfocus due to the temperature?

None. Rock solid.

Jim

[Jannard]

Great news Jim, thank you for the update. On Superman and Apocalypto the cameras overheated constantly, and they were "production" cameras.

Glad you went with peltier (quiet). The F900 still overheats and it has 3 incredibly loud fans.

We had heard this but I didn't want to bring it up... it is a difficult trick, these sensors.

Jim

[Spinflight]

Were these prototypes Black or Silver? Just curious how many degrees a silver one would reduce the temperature if these overheating prototypes were black.

[J. Bernard Vallon]

Any shifting backfocus due to the temperature?

Would shifting backfocus even be an issue without an optical viewfinder? Maybe for focusing to infinity...

[Jannard]

Were these prototypes Black or Silver? Just curious how many degrees a silver one would reduce the temperature if these overheating prototypes were black.

"Bombay" and "Romeo" are black. We are looking at paint options... actually, we are looking at a lot of things. Just so you know, we aren't nervous. We have overcome some incredible obstacles along the way. The worst thing that can result is that extra care be taken when shooting all day in "wicked hot" locations.

Jim

[IAN SUN]

Nope... the SS team knew that they were shaking down our cameras live on a film set and have been very supportive. The cameras finished the day working fine with the help from a frozen water bottle. Tomorrow there will be zip-lock baggies supervising the action. It is really hot there. I think the longest they were down was about 10 minutes. They are shooting out in the middle of nowhere and there isn't a 7-11 around the corner, so water bottles were the best they could do.

Jim


Fantastic, Jim that sounds like 90% good news to me.
I can't wait to see these films, er...REDS.
Glad to hear you are already on top of it with a new design.

Does the overheating sensor result in any noise showing up in the image?

[Manfred Lopez]

I would still want a black one... :)

[Jarred Land]

Would shifting backfocus even be an issue without an optical viewfinder? Maybe for focusing to infinity...

yes if you relied on your lens distance marks.

[Shawn Nelson]

Any chance of an on-set picture?

[Steven Parker]

On a show in Mexico a couple years ago with F900s, we kept a 4x4 Silk on the dolly to shade the A-camera, or a small silk for B-camera. That helped immensely. Didn't hold heat like a flag would, and very little light pollution. Sounds like it's a bit hotter in Spain than we had in Sonora, however.

Thank you, Jim - your honest reports are really appreciated. Now if only there were some stills to post...:whistling:

[Jannard]

Fantastic, Jim that sounds like 90% good news to me.
I can't wait to see these films, er...REDS.
Glad to hear you are already on top of it with a new design.

Does the overheating sensor result in any noise showing up in the image?

We have been told that the images look incredible. But at the moment the sensor warnings went off, those shots showed just a bit more noise. But still better than most anything you could shoot. As soon as the cameras cooled, images went back to incredible. They will make sure the sensor warnings don't go off from here on out.

Jim

[Manfred Lopez]

What happened to Jarred's answer? Wasn't there one? I wanted to read that one too but decided to post right away (before reading it) so as not to loose my place in the answer avalange. :tongue:

EDIT:

Arghhh... it's back... My browser is acting up...Please ignore this post. Now I am embarrased. :)

EDIT #2:

What... Jarred's post now comes after mine (#14 & #15)?? I saw his before posting mine... weird... anyway, getting back to the overheating issue... (actually my brain is overheating)

[Jannard]

Thank you, Jim - your honest reports are really appreciated. Now if only there were some stills to post...:whistling:

You mean the other guys don't tell you this stuff during development?

We can't post stills for obvious reasons.

Jim

[Scott Webster]

I still can't believe they took prototype cameras to another country to shoot a feature, in the jungle, in 100 degree heat. The heat wouldn't be the only reason you'd be sweating!

Do you have a Red Engineer on set?

[Manfred Lopez]

You mean the other guys don't tell you this stuff during development?

Jim

Jim, I am totally convinced you will become a case study at Harvard business school. I really mean it.

[Unwounded]

........and Bombay and Romeo are minimally enabled in there features right? So there couldn't be any news of other stuff going wrong because those things are locked out? Or are they getting to shake out everything?
P.S. thanks for being so forthcoming......as usual.

[Alex Boothby]

Jim, you just tied Jarred for posts.

[Steven Parker]

We can't post stills for obvious reasons.

can't blame a guy for tryin'...

[Jannard]

I still can't believe they took prototype cameras to another country to shoot a feature, in the jungle, in 100 degree heat. The heat wouldn't be the only reason you'd be sweating!

Do you have a Red Engineer on set?

We do have someone on set. Talk about sweating!

Jim

[IAN SUN]

We have been told that the images look incredible. But at the moment the sensor warnings went off, those shots showed just a bit more noise. But still better than most anything you could shoot. As soon as the cameras cooled, images went back to incredible. They will make sure the sensor warnings don't go off from here on out.

Jim


Seeing that there was no overheating in the blazing NZ Sun. I wonder what combination of direct sunlight, air tempreture, humidity and run time, breeched the thermal envelope of the sensor?

Are you considering providing guidelines for the operating environment when you have completed these kinds of tests on the production camera?

[Scott Webster]

We do have someone on set. Talk about sweating!

Jim

LOL!:biggrin:

[Matt Redmond]

There's a jungle in Spain? :umm:

[Jannard]

........and Bombay and Romeo are minimally enabled in there features right? So there couldn't be any news of other stuff going wrong because those things are locked out? Or are they getting to shake out everything?
P.S. thanks for being so forthcoming......as usual.

We are sending software updates almost everyday to add features. We are probably 65% feature enabled at this point. There are a ton more features than PJ had when he shot "Crossing". They even have Timecode!

Jim

[Steven Parker]

They're using RedDrives, right? How are they holding up?

[IAN SUN]

They're using RedDrives, right? How are they holding up?

I believe it is CF cards.

[Jannard]

They're using RedDrives, right? How are they holding up?

They are shooting to CF cards. There have been no issues other than the heat.

Jim

[Steven Parker]

I believe it is CF cards.

yes, you're right...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=57203&highlight=soderbergh#post57203

EDIT - Jim's quick, isn't he?

[Desert Rune]

Seeing that there was no overheating in the blazing NZ Sun. I wonder what combination of direct sunlight, air tempreture, humidity and run time, breeched the thermal envelope of the sensor?

It could be the humidity. Wetter air retains more heat.

[Manfred Lopez]

There's a jungle in Spain? :umm:

Canary Islands?

[Jannard]

Jim, I am totally convinced you will become a case study at Harvard business school. I really mean it.

If honesty and being open during development of a new program wins you a case study at Harvard, we are all in bad shape.

Jim

[Zack Birlew]

Peltiers? Wowee that must be a hot sensor! I remember buying a peltier to try and keep an old Athlon computer extra cool back in my computer modding days, never did work right, the cool side kept being overtaken by the hot side.

[Mark Mannschreck]

Not that the overheating in Spain overly concerns me BUT - Is there still a possiblilty of having an early res RedOne CNC aluminum body only polished and completely unpainted? I'd pay a premium for that opportunity!

[Jannard]

Not that the overheating in Spain overly concerns me BUT - Is there still a possiblilty of having an early res RedOne CNC aluminum body only polished and completely unpainted? I'd pay a premium for that opportunity!

How much of a premium? :-)

Does that mean you don't have faith that we can fix this issue? Or are you going to shoot in 120 degree heat? Or just think it would be cool looking?

Jim

[Manfred Lopez]

If honesty and being open during development of a new program wins you a case study at Harvard, we are all in bad shape.

Jim

:)

From what I understand, a business model nowadays consists of obtaining 'advantages' over your competition by whatever means necesary using whatever products already exist.

The one about actually making an inovative product through sheer hard work, dedication, sweat and commitment to quality seems to have died out sometime in the last century before Walmart came along.

[Nook Kim]

I was wondering what happens when a camera gets overheated. It sounds like
there is a warning sign on the viewfinder of the Red Ones.

What happens when other cameras get too hot? I notice people talk about
getting more noise on the picture, but does anything else happen, like the
camera shutting off or the image become very messed up in color?

I've just finished shooting a project with on a Varicam, and the location was
really hot, over 100 during the entire shoot. I've taken out a 9 foot umbrella
and had it over the camera. Sometimes, of course, we couldn't have that
umbrella, because of the size of it. I didn't notice anything, but it might have
been just that the monitor was too small to notice anything. This makes me
wonder how I could know when it happens.

PS. It looks like you guys are speeding up the process of updating the camera's
feature for the project. I love that!

Regards,

[Kyle Spicer]

They will make sure the sensor warnings don't go off from here on out.

Jim

So there is a warning that will let you know your sensor is overheating and does the camera auto shutdown at that time? :)




lol Janghos beat me too it

[Jannard]

:)

From what I understand, a business model nowadays consists of obtaining 'advantages' over your competition by whatever means necesary using whatever products already exist.

The one about actually making an inovative product through sheer hard work, dedication, sweat and commitment to quality seems to have died out sometime in the last century before Walmart came along.

Half the fun of this project is the community. The only way to keep smart guys in the community is to tell the straight scoop. Bullshit is easy to spot. I love what we are doing. And the hurdles we are getting over make the project more worthy. We have no interest in hiding the obstacles because when we get past them, we look better. "Life is pretty easy to understand. Difficult to execute." That will be on my tombstone.

Jim

[Jannard]

So there is a warning that will let you know your sensor is overheating and does the camera auto shutdown at that time? :)

lol Janghos beat me too it

There is a warning on our back status LCD (back of the camera)... but no one is watching that. We will add that to the LCD and EVF info. This is a great lesson. It will be fixed with the next software build.

Jim

[Ace]

Awesome news. Heat.. technologies final frontier.

Perhaps The Peltier should have copper tubing exiting the body through contact points in the redrail joints, they would make contact with the aluminium rails so as to use them as cooling rods! or even dissipate it through the bottom tripod plate.. anywhere that metal comes in contact!

[Häakon]

"Bombay" and "Romeo" are black. We are looking at paint options... actually, we are looking at a lot of things.
Having a lighter colored camera would probably help with heat outside, but black is advantageous inside, especially because it's less reflective (and hell, I just think the powdered jet black looks cooler). :) Seriously though, I hope that if new options are unveiled in relation to the color and/or coat of the camera, the current setup will still exist in tandem with them.

Besides, if this company (http://www.colorwarepc.com/) will paint your iPhone for $150, I'm sure they'd be more than happy to paint your RED ONE. :bleh:

P.S. - Thanks for the updates. Most companies would probably work to fix the problem before the production models ship, but they wouldn't dare tell the public about the hiccups along the way. You guys are awesome.

[Mark Mannschreck]

How much of a premium? :-)

Does that mean you don't have faith that we can fix this issue? Or are you going to shoot in 120 degree heat? Or just think it would be cool looking?

Jim

Seriously? Name your price!!! If there was the slightest chance I could get a machined body I would be ECSTATIC. The heat is really not an issue... I know the issue will be resolved and if not I have unlimited access to water bottles (evian in particular).
But to have an early RedOne machined like my new waterjet wheels for my bike..

[KETCH ROSSi]

Thanks Jim,

again and again you have shown all of as(and the rest of them) the incredible relation ship you are willing to mantain with this project and as.

I have to say for a second you had me, (but just for a second) as I intend to take the cameras back to Italy and the shoots in the Sardinian summers get to be up to 45C, the cooling system is so important, yes they will be planty of black umbrellas over the cameras, but it is nice to know that you guys are on it.

Again thanks much for the info and honesty, can count the days to get my babies, in any color, chrome or black.

Ciao,

KETCH ROSSI
www.KETCHFRAME.com

[Manfred Lopez]

"Life is pretty easy to understand. Difficult to execute." That will be on my tombstone.

Jim

Amen to that. That so perfectly applies to Moviemaking in general as well. I also agree that smart people will ONLY get involved when there is 100% openess and an objective goal. Like you said, we all are tired of Bullshit and most here can spot it a mile away. There is a reason that people like David Mullen and Mike Curtis migrated to this forum early-on and responded to your initial promise of innovative technology. After all, it's not the same thing to promise that you'll go to the moon than to promise to go to the moon and pull out industrial blueprints and advanced science algorithms and convene a group of todays best experts. Like Mike sais... the proof is in the pudding... And on this forum we all get to see the ingredients to this pudding as it is being baked!

[Nook Kim]

yes they will be planty of black umbrellas over the cameras



You meant white umbrellas?

[KETCH ROSSi]

You meant white umbrellas?

No, Black takes in the UV radiation and the heat does not passes true, also the white umbrellas will reflect extra unwanted light in to the shoot.

I use them all the time in Photography, the black Canon 1D body likes the shadows in stead of been left on a tripod under the scorching sun wile the girls have fun splashing cool water on them self.

Ciao.

[GlennChan]

Peltiers? Wowee that must be a hot sensor! I remember buying a peltier to try and keep an old Athlon computer extra cool back in my computer modding days, never did work right, the cool side kept being overtaken by the hot side.
It might be just to keep the temperature down so that there's less noise.

One example:
http://www.opticstar.com/Run/Astronomy/Astro.asp?s=f91b1c7-48d6-4454-a12-715bb9c35&p=0_10_0_50_200

Cooled CCD
The DS-335C ICE is well suited for Lunar, Solar, planetary and deep sky astrophotography. The camera's cooling subsystem reduces image noise to the bare minimum and allows for very long exposures. This is of great importance in deep-sky photography but not relevant when imaging the Sun, Moon and planets.

Sensor cooling is important when imaging deep sky objects that require exposures of several minutes. As the sensor heats up the thermal noise manifests itself on the image as bright pixels and high levels of background noise. The on-board Peltier cooling subsystem eradicates hot pixels and background noise to produce high quality images.

[Shawn Nelson]

What sort of video village/monitoring solution is being used?

[Mark Mannschreck]

No, Black takes in the UV radiation and the heat does not passes true

Ciao.

Totally! The heat does not pass true.

mmmmmm... Girls splashing cool water on themselves...

[Stuart English]

They even have Timecode!

The camera now records dual SMPTE timecode tracks. One is a Run Record (Edge) timecode, the other is being Jam Synced to an external source.

Each clip combines Camera I.D, Magazine (i.e. roll) number, Clip number and Date to form the file name, which helps data management in post.

[Jason Francois]

I still am taking aback at how honest Jim and the RED team are. I've seen it from the beginning and it's still surprising and much appreciated.

I wonder if it will every fully sink in as to just what level of history we are witnessing?

[Kevin Halverson]

This is really no surprise at all. Thermal noise is always a dominate factor in an imager array. I was wondering if active cooling of the sensor substrate would be utilized. In a number of industrial applications, this is common practice.

Since making "cold" isn't possible, just the movement of heat and in the case of a Pelitier junction cooler, only to the opposite side of the diode array, what is the secondary thermal path? I assume it will be an extruded heatsink of some sort, but how will this thermal load be moved outside of the camera body. Natural convection flow or will there be an active aid (fan) when needed?

The question that this brings up is the impact on the power load, what is the forward junction current and how much additional power load will be added with the cooler (and its support thermal path) engaged?

[Jarred Land]

This is really no surprise at all. Thermal noise is always a dominate factor in an imager array. I was wondering if active cooling of the sensor substrate would be utilized. In a number of industrial applications, this is common practice.

Since making "cold" isn't possible, just the movement of heat and in the case of a Pelitier junction cooler, only to the opposite side of the diode array, what is the secondary thermal path? I assume it will be an extruded heatsink of some sort, but how will this thermal load be moved outside of the camera body. Natural convection flow or will there be an active aid (fan) when needed?

The question that this brings up is the impact on the power load, what is the forward junction current and how much additional power load will be added with the cooler (and its support thermal path) engaged?

we do have a fan in the camera.. to take away the heat that is pulled back from the TE plate. The fan does crank down when you hit the record button to an inaudible level (which of course can be over-riden)

[Bruce Allen]

Excellent updates. Wonderful honesty and transparency here. Thanks again, Jim. Good luck with the rest of the shoot!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Manfred Lopez]

...

Jarred... Could I ask you a question?... Did you erase one of your earlier posts in this thread or am I loosing my mind? :turned:

[Jannard]

Don't watch Jarred too close or you will lose your mind! I know from experience...:-)

Jim

[Kevin Halverson]

we do have a fan in the camera.. to take away the heat that is pulled back from the TE plate. The fan does crank down when you hit the record button to an inaudible level (which of course can be over-riden)

Thanks for the quick reply Jarred. With a decent amount of thermal mass, ramping up and down the fan's velocity should work out fine as the real world duty cycle (at least in conventional narrative and commercial applications) isn't anywhere near 100%. Now in ENG situations, they can have some pretty long run times, but since I don't shoot ENG, what do I care!

Even in the worse case, and with the fan overridden, I doubt that the fan would contribute any more noise than a full sized tape mechanism would so I expect that even with a continuous recording situation this should be a fine solution.

[Spinflight]

we do have a fan in the camera.. to take away the heat that is pulled back from the TE plate. The fan does crank down when you hit the record button to an inaudible level (which of course can be over-riden)

Nice!!! That answered my next question.

[Jarred Land]

Jarred... Could I ask you a question?... Did you erase one of your earlier posts in this thread or am I loosing my mind? :turned:

hey look over there ------------>

(delete) (delete)

post? what post?

[Priyesh P.]

Two questions left:
1. How much power does the peltier draw and how does it effect running time?
2. What about overcranking? The sensor will go up in heat more quickly, so how long can one shoot at at highspeed?

[Manfred Lopez]

hey look over there ------------>

(delete) (delete)

post? what post?

:blink:

(Loosing rest of the mind)

[Laco Zamba]

Will be possible to replace spoiled fan?

[Jannard]

Don't ask too many detailed questions since we are still changing things around. We'll keep you posted as we go along.

Jim

[Poi Boy]

great feedback, I remember similar problems with my first digital back and I quickly learned to protect them from direct sun and even using canned air in one extreme situation for cooling. Please keep feeding us info from SS's production.
Aloha
-A

[Corrado Silveri]

Will be possible to replace loosed brain?

[Larry]

If honesty and being open during development of a new program wins you a case study at Harvard, we are all in bad shape.

Jim, Thank you very much for the news. The information is highly appreciated.

I'm afraid we, indeed, are all bit in bad shape, and the RED project is a nice counterexample to modern economy of high tech products.

I spent a long time thinking before made the order of RED, and simultaneously also wondered how is it possible that developments like this exist at all. Having a science-engineering training my concern is that the economists have spoiled a lot of modern engineering. That is, the preassure to make quick profit have overwhelmed good engineering practice in many situations. For example, you talk now of overheating of the sensor. The very first Canon 1D EOS body had the same problem and it showed up if the exposure time was too long. The result was an akward amount of noise making the photos useless. This was never told to the customers a priori. Or, if one shoots in the progressive mode of the Canon XL H1, there is a delay of about 0.1s in the EVF. This, without saying anything of the chromatic abberration problem, is, of course, very akward in some situations, and again, this had to be found out by the customers themselves.

In the history of economics a tiny company Microsoft managed to do the right choices and become a market leader and dominator in computer business. Another small company Nokia did the same in telecommunications, and it may well be in the future RED will be recognized in Harward as the company which started a revolution in digital cinema by introducing a product which outperformed the outcomes of big companies such as the Sony F23 cinema camera.

In my mind the question is, how did we ever come to this point. My preliminary answer and hope is, behind RED there is a bunch of people having a passion in cameras who were not driven by the preassure to sell the old technology to maximize the profit. Instead, the whole design has started from the point to make the camera the customers need and want to have with a reasonable price and therefore engineering has been number one, not economics.

To sum up, I think we are bit in bad position because we are sold old stuff all the time and everywhere just because of too greedy economical reasoning. In the usual case, there are no alternatives to do it better, for new and fresh ideas seldom met the financial resourses needed to make progress. So, in this light RED may well found its way to academic economy schools. Simultaneously, wish RED manages to keep the same attitude in the future.

[Mike Prevette]

I've had to fill ziplock's with ice and pack them around F900's and Miranda boxes to keep them working right. And that was INSIDE a soundstage in LA. Heat is the devil of these things, and it sound's like RED's on the right path. I'm so glad it's being worked out now.

Thanks again for all the up to date info. I am so happy about the honesty.
_mike

[Manfred Lopez]

Will be possible to replace loosed brain?

Only if it is a red one... :red_bandana:

[Jannard]

Sensors just don't like heat. It doesn't matter what brand is on the camera.

Jim

[Brook Willard]

Man... I go out to see a movie and come back to this.

Thanks for the update from the set, guys...

I know you may not be able to answer this... but are they treating the camera [and takes] as though they were shooting film? With short CF "magazines," their record time before a mag change would certainly be similar to film. Are they sticking to short and planned takes or are they just rolling the camera and massaging the performances to perfection? There are certainly pros and cons to each, I'm just curious for my own sake.

I can't really think of something camera related to ask... so I gotta ask something. :)

[Gunleik Groven]

I live in Norway... The homeland of COLD.

Still, this is great news, as I plan to take my Red to Sahara during next summer -;)

Gunleik

[Michael Brennan]

Better hear it straight from Jim than inaccurate rumours from on set!

Use of the peltier to reduce heat and thus noise makes sense as it is established technology in astro photography.

What is interesting is that both Panasonic and Sony cited heat as a major problem in developing 12bit ADs for HD camcorders yet peltier cooling has never been used in a broadcast or D cinema camera. (unless Dalsa has one tucked away)


Mike Brennan

[zak forrest]

are they treating the camera [and takes] as though they were shooting film? With short CF "magazines," their record time before a mag change would certainly be similar to film. Are they sticking to short and planned takes or are they just rolling the camera and massaging the takes to perfection?

crucial question.... i was wondering as well...

[Greg Voevodsky]

Jim, Do you have a moisture sensor that will detect moisture and turn off the
red camera?

I've tried to be careful, but jumping in and out of air conditioning in a car with the camera in the trunk - I've triggered the humidity warning a few times both in the tropics and skiing no matter how I tried to warm or cool the camera before hand. I'd hate to hurt my RED. Is this issue addressed?

[Manfred Lopez]

Man... I go out to see a movie and come back to this.


Actually, I've been trying to watch a movie for the last couple of hours and I just can't seem to switch from Safari to the DVD Player application... But then again, the fact that I have already lost my mind/brain has been more than established.

[Stephen Webb]

Couldn't have asked for a sterner test heat-wise. The same weather front that is currently drowning us in the UK is burning up the rest of Europe, so when he's says it's hot in Spain he's not kidding.

[Gregory Karydis]

How about clip-on plastic covers?
You could make them any colour you want :)
You could even have white or transparent plastic covers that one could paint in camo to match the environment especially if you are shooting with multiple remote cameras.
Over here (Greece) the temp shot up to 114.8 ºF in the shade.

Oh and here's a little expansion to the idea of clip-on covers.
How about an aluminium cover that has heat-pipes running throughout it's surface and you can hook it up to normal 1/2 or 1/3 inch pipes and watercool it like a CPU or graphics card on a computer?

[Cail Young]

You mean the other guys don't tell you this stuff during development?

We can't post stills for obvious reasons.

Could you post a sketch? Diagram? Cave painting? ;)

[Floris Liesker]

Jim, Do you have a moisture sensor that will detect moisture and turn off the
red camera?

I've tried to be careful, but jumping in and out of air conditioning in a car with the camera in the trunk - I've triggered the humidity warning a few times both in the tropics and skiing no matter how I tried to warm or cool the camera before hand. I'd hate to hurt my RED. Is this issue addressed?

I thought humidity was mainly an issue for rotating-head tape systems, or is it just bad for electronic devices in general?

[Desert Rune]

Here's a novel idea that could have side benefits:

a built-in battery-powered refrigeration unit. Keep the sensors chilled, and with optional cup holders, keep our beers chilled too. :)

[Gunleik Groven]

Here's a novel idea that could have side benefits:

a built-in battery-powered refrigeration unit. Keep the sensors chilled, and with optional cup holders, keep our beers chilled too. :)


And the surpluss heat from the fridge, could bu used to boil water for our Irish Coffees

Gunleik

[Emanuel A.]

"Life is pretty easy to understand. Difficult to execute." That will be on my tombstone.

JimGreat quote, man!

Totally understood. :)

E. ;-)

[Alexander Nikishin]

After a loooong day n night of work, it's great to hear that RED was as hot as I was today.

[Mardi_Gras]

SS and his crew are shooting under what can be termed the most extreme of weather conditions in recent European history. I haven't read any one mention this yet, but there seems to be a heatwave amongst other extreme weather conditions, including flooding in the UK and all across Europe, with Greece and Romania recording as high as 149 Fahrehneit yesterday the 26th.

It's crazy out there right about now for any camera crew, much less a workhorse like the Red. I will sweating for real if I were a part of this.

[Ray Flynn]

jim and RED,

thank you for the report back. i know it was too much to ask, wanting feedback the night of the 24th, and am happily surprised to wake up in NYC the 26th to such a prompt and timely report.
i have shot in the dry superheat of Extremadura in western spain and the humid heat of monsoon season in SE Asia. these conditions have even affected my mechanical still cameras(Nikon F and FM series and Xpan)
where both motordrives and shutter systems have been off calibration on a few rolls then returned to normal expectations on subsequent rolls under less intense enviromental circumstances. so i am not surprised that issues have arisen on this shake down cruise.
was wondering whether you were going to have the opportunity to get Peltier-cooled models to SS during his shoot schedule, would like to know how they perform under the described circumstances.

also i have cooled an HVX previously using a rain cover and a portable A/C with built in dehumidifier and some small guage HVAC tubing, that the prop guy had. somewhat made a earth suit for the camera. still had to be careful concerning condensation and humidity, but it worked.

thank you for the forthright report and i look forward wrap from today's shoot, just to see if there is more news from the front.

hey is there any chance for a east coast demo once RED reaches production status.

ray.

[Brainstorm]

Don't ask too many detailed questions since we are still changing things around. We'll keep you posted as we go along.

Jim

Hi Jim (and Jarred),

The information you are sharing here is truly worth its weight in gold to your reputation. It's really amazing for us to be able to follow the RED development process in this way... and "straight talk" will truly build the confidence (and admiration) of everyone who is waiting to shoot with RED far better than fairy tales.

I had the pleasure of meeting Ted in Sydney last week, seeing 'Crossing the Line' on a big screen, and holding a RED One in my hands. Vaporware? Just go tell your critics to eat their shorts.

Best Wishes
Brainstorm

[david farland]

Jim,
Thanks for the update. So a peltier device is stuck on the back of the sensor with heatsink/heat pipes being blasted by a fan. Is that the idea?

[Pol Turrents]

Heat? in spain?
This year is not one of the most hottest summer...
The last 3 years here in spain it was like being at hell!

[JD Holloway]

Call Peter Jackson and nab that water cooling jacket from the German machine gun!

In all seriousness, on location in Toronto last week our british Director "went down" for over an hour do to the heat (47C-116.6F). His body was "evacuating" from both ends and we almost lost him for the episode ("Final 24"). Heat can be dangerous; with exhaustion, caffeine and the thrill of the shoot you can forget to take care of yourself. The director came back like a champ and even made a concerted effort to help load-out of the location, against my wishes and frankly, orders.
Kudos to him, he's a champ, and hes going to love this camera.

[Siva Kollipara]

british Director "went down" for over an hour do to the heat (47C-116.6F)

This is very common in Bollywood, India, where the 116+ Degrees and extreme humidity is very common at least for 6 months in a year.

How is REDone is going to survive such battle?
If RED can manage with Peltier, how are the battery power affected?, Can we run RED on direct DC power?

[Antoine Baumann]

that is right polispol, however, 40 degre celcius is not what I would call a temperate (moderate) temperature.

May be you will get some more heat in august :-))

Anyway better to have an "all temperature resistant" sensor and camera, as the nature has gone crazy.....

antoine.

[Stuart English]

Can we run RED on direct DC power?

D.C power of course. For A.C power you could use the RED-CHARGER to provide a D.C power output.

[Pol Turrents]

There's a jungle in Spain? :umm:

You should see my room...

[Chris Parker]

Well, I was plannning on taking my two Red's to Saudi Arabia, as that is where the bulk of my work is. I sure do hope that this overheating issue gets solved to the point where I CAN take a Red into 120 degree (100 is nothing when you have shot in a Saudi summer!) heat and continue to shoot without problems. Hmmmmm......

[Joe Carney]

A simple suggestion..
Military grade camoulflage..is the best artificial shade in the world. When I was in the Army, we would set up large nets to work under in the Hot Texas summer days. It lowers the ambient temp by at least 10 degrees Farenheit. Disperses light similar the way a forest canopy does.
You can make the poles high enough that they wouldn't intefere with shooting.
The netting reflects infrared and other types of Solar radiation but is invisible to radar.
We would get enough netting and poles to make a 40'x40' area about 15 to 20 feet high, with the sides going almost down to the ground (about 10" off the ground).
The netting doesn't trap hot air either.
With enought poles, spreaders, netting and stakes you can in theory make something over 100'x100' easily.

Plenty of surplus stores on the net to get kits (netting, poles, spreaders).
Easy to take down and set up when moving from set to set.
It is not rain proof though.

[Steve Freebairn]

Peltier cooling should work out great. Someone asked earlier if moisture is going to be a problem, is it? With all the processing power in that camera, I'd expect it to put off a lot of heat. I'm sure it it remains an issue, that a Red cooler could be designed to slap on to the bottom of the camera that only made it slightly taller and weigh just a bit more for those times where people are filming in extreme weather.

[ChristopherKenworthy]

The worst thing that can result is that extra care be taken when shooting all day in "wicked hot" locations.

Jim

Thanks for sharing. It's appreciated, and gives us time to plan for this. Australia, on a cool day, is "wicked hot". We've had a few days above 100 degrees in the middle of our winter. So for my late summer shoot, I'll need to invent something to keep the camera cool. Hiring an extra crew member or three to hold umbrellas and make things cumbersome goes against the whole Red ethos for me. So I want to invent something that can simplify the cooling/shading. I want my DP out in the sunshine, for hours, without somebody chasing him with an umbrella. So, maybe some sort of attachment. There are lots of holes on that Premium Production Package. If anybody has ideas, let me know. And if I invent something good, I'll share.

[sander kamp]

I live in Thailand and during the hot season (april-june) things are getting very hot here so I'm happy with the testing now.

How about the hard disks? I've had hard disks fail on me because of the heat, and that was inside a building. When I took it out of its enclosure and put a fan on it it started working again. That was a 3.5 inch hard disk, maybe the laptop ones are better heat resistant. But it makes me think it might be better to go with compact flash.

[Chris Parker]

I live in Thailand and during the hot season (april-june) things are getting very hot here so I'm happy with the testing now.


Where in Thailand do you live? What do you do there? Just curious as I go to Thailand every winter and hope to live there someday.

[Daniel Reichenbach]

Funny, that RED Revolution is used to shoot the first two full feature films about another revolution. Will Jim be ones on our walls and T-Shirt? At least, thank for your openess.

[Mark Crabtree]

Jim,

Several of us have raised the question of painting the camera white based on our experience with black cameras overheating when exposed to the sun. I am very happy to hear you are looking into "paint options". I know that many do not want a white camera for a number of reasons. Perhaps they don't feel they will be in that situation often enough and would prefer covering the camera when they are. But I think most who are opposed to the white paint idea are just so proud to be getting this camera and want people to see it as something truly professional and are afraid a white version would not be understood. Speaking just for myself, I will be just as proud of this camera in white paint as in black, probably more, because I recognize the courage it takes to do something other than the expected black. I want to personally thank you for looking into the "paint options". I spend many days a year in the hot Texas sun and for that environment white just makes sense.

[Jason Murphy]

I think the issue with a white camera is less about it not looking professional, and simply that a white camera will bounce light and show up in reflections like crazy on a controlled film set. A shiny metal camera, while perhaps being even better for heat, would be even worse for reflections. White would make sense if you were always shooting outdoors in hot bright sunlight around non-reflective material, but I'm willing to bet that this will be a less common shooting situation.

Still, I guess that the "paint option" is definitely a good idea for those who don't have to worry about light bouncing off the camera into the scene, and will be shooting outside in the heat.

[Don Woods]

I have used Dry Ice bags on more then one shoot

[Jason Murphy]

Well, I was plannning on taking my two Red's to Saudi Arabia, as that is where the bulk of my work is. I sure do hope that this overheating issue gets solved to the point where I CAN take a Red into 120 degree (100 is nothing when you have shot in a Saudi summer!) heat and continue to shoot without problems. Hmmmmm......

Yeah, I grew up in Oman and have shot there and in Dubai and Doha as well (summers are 120-odd in the shade - in the sun? Forget it). So enough field testing during a heatwave in Europe; give the camera a workout during summer in Dubai. :)

Seriously, though, it's great to know that you guys are working on this, and hear occasional progress reports. It's been fascinating.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Summer in Spain is very hot.

Have a look at the photo below:

Fata morgana view in Formentera today, Thursday, July 26, 2007.

Temperature 46 Celsius degree.

871

[Patrick Wynne]

If you wanna test extremes you should send it here to North Dakota. This week the temp has been over 100 for a few days and during the winter we've seen below -40 many times (-80 wind chill). I used to walk to University of North Dakota a few blocks away and my ipod would stop working about 100 feet out the door (I'm not crazy, none of the cars want to start).

[Antoine Fabi]

Jim,

That remembers me the 70's F1 cars.
Renault had a few overheating problems with their first turbo engines...in normal environment.
Then voilà ! we had the tubo engine era.

I am very glad you are already working on a special cooling system.

But in RED's case, full 4K 24 fps, ...100+ degree IS HOT.

Do you think significant improvements can still be done in extreme temperatures ?

Thanks for the update !

[Casey Green]

There is a warning on our back status LCD (back of the camera)... but no one is watching that. We will add that to the LCD and EVF info. This is a great lesson. It will be fixed with the next software build.

Jim

As much as I'm sorry to hear of your trouble with heat, I have to admit that it's great to see these real-world issues being seen in the field and understood and fixed before shipment. Thanks again for putting 'em through the proper paces.

[Noah Kadner]

Any chance we can see some pics of Red working on the SS set?

[C.H.Haskell]

Great to know kinks are still being ironed out, thanks for updates Jim. Heat is an obvious concern for many shooters, are they testing any production models with the cooler sensors in these high heat conditions as well? Well best of luck out there for the rest of the shoot and stay cool! ;)

Best

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Any chance we can see some pics of Red working on the SS set?

he already said no pictures on page 2



You mean the other guys don't tell you this stuff during development?

We can't post stills for obvious reasons.

Jim

[Ivan G]

I requested a while back that I wouldn't mind a chrome RED! I'm pretty sure the black plays a role of digesting some unwanted heat. Or maybe not? Anyone else for chrome.... However, It's nice to hear that the current schedule still plays :biggrin:

[betty schaefer]

i always thought the hottest part would be the your processor crunching the numbers, not the cmos.
i saw you also use novel concepts inc coolers..their microgroove tech is cool (pun intended) :)

[Zakaree Sandberg]

I requested a while back that I wouldn't mind a chrome RED! I'm pretty sure the black plays a role of digesting some unwanted heat. Or maybe not? Anyone else for chrome.... However, It's nice to hear that the current schedule still plays :biggrin:

this is (was) being discussed in another thread..
the "chrome" polish will get even hotter to the touch..
someone made a good point... go touch a black car that has been in direct sunlight... go touch a white car that has been in direct sunlight.. now go touch the chrome bumper... the bumper is the HOTTER of the two.

An umbrella/tent/tarp will be much more effective against any overheating.

Besides.. unless your filming in the sahara desert or in the middle of a heat wave (such as the production we are talking about) I dont think overheating will be much of an issue...
(also assuming your not shooting 4k raw with a fast fps)

[Babu Kantamneni]

Jim,
500 people died today in europes heatwave.must be bad.all over the news today.
babu

[S. Um]

Now that you've experienced the heat, get ready for the rain in Spain...

[Mark Crabtree]

Jim and the Red Team,

This link http://www.eco-web.com/editorial/061101.html shows results of tests done on various colors as they relate to heat buildup in structures.
The conclusion of these test was that the color white was the best way to reduce the heat from sun exposure.

[Christoffer Glans]

Well, with the climatechanges it will be alot hotter close to the equator.
Some areas will be so hot that no life can live there. I'm talking the surface of mars in some places.

As for the colors. Did you ever think of why it's black? Black reduces the chance of getting radiosity light reflexes from the camera body. If everything is black, the actors and set will be the only thing lit. A white body will produce alot of reflexes, a chrome one would be a disaster. Use a camerahouse instead (don't know their real names). A white soft house that you wrap around the camera.

[JD Holloway]

this is (was) being discussed in another thread..
the "chrome" polish will get even hotter to the touch..
someone made a good point... go touch a black car that has been in direct sunlight... go touch a white car that has been in direct sunlight.. now go touch the chrome bumper... the bumper is the HOTTER of the two.


(talking out of my arse here plz forgive)

All things being equal, the Chrome bumper will always "feel" hotter because of the Chromium. Its a metal. Metal CONDUCTS heat better then paint, or most non metals (lets not talk carbon here). Imagine yourself in a sauna thats 250 degrees. The wood is fawk'n hot right? But imagine if they used metal fasteners in the construction (they don't). They would burn you bad.
People can "walk on fire" because usually they're walking on rocks, often glowing with heat(usually lava rocks) but with poor conductive properties. The ultimate example is the space shuttle exterior tiles. Even heated to several thousand degrees, and glowing, they can be handled without gloves!

ANY paint finish on your camera will insulate the body (IMHO) and tend to hold internal heat. That being said, body mods for ridiculous heat applications should be simple so long as the construction of the chassis incorporates it as a heat-sink. I can't imagine that it doesn't, it's SOP camera design at these wattages.

12V liquid cooling anyone?

(arse closed)

[Mark Crabtree]

Just go to the website and look at the research.

[Noah Kadner]

he already said no pictures on page 2

Yeah but was that stills from the camera or stills of the camera on the set? I understand from the camera and development blah blah, just to see them rocking the camera on set.

Noah

[Pol Turrents]

Now that you've experienced the heat, get ready for the rain in Spain...

Don't worry.
As Eliza doolittle said... The raaaaaaaain in spaaaaain stays maaainly in the plaaaaain

[Don Woods]

IT would be bad ass to have a pic of them rocking it on set.

[Steve Gibby]

Thanks for the update on the SS beta testing Jim. Much appreciated...

Sounds like you guys are on top of the situation. That exactly what beta testing should uncover - challenges and situations that stretch the limits of what the equipment can do. It's great to hear that the peltier system and revised sensor will be a thermal improvement on the beta prototypes. A light colored, heat absorbant "cool pack" that attaches to the camera via velcro or snaps, custom cut to fit the camera, affordable, and easlily removeable would work real well for those situations in hot climates where an umbrella wasn't practical (high wind, etc.). Maybe PortaBrace, Kata, or Petrol will make the cool pack I described, or better yet, maybe RED might think about making something like that after the camera development is finalized and sent for production. For most use, I think a black camera is fine. With a white cool pack available to cover the camera with, it would be the best of both worlds.

Thanks again for sharing the SS beta info with us...

[Keith Alan Morris]

Summer in Spain is very hot.

Have a look at the photo below:

Fata morgana view in Formentera today, Thursday, July 26, 2007.

Temperature 46 Celsius degree.

871

Speak American, dadgummit. Whats that in Fahrenheit? :innocent:

I know its 'sposed to be 105 degrees in Cordoba tomorrow. That ain't Honduras hot (where it feels as if it were actually PUSHING you into the pavement), but still...

[Pol Turrents]

46 celsius=114.8 fahrenheit

btw they are shooting in Toledo (close to madrid). And tomorrow temperature will be:
Maximum:
39°C (102.2 degrees Fahrenheit)
Minimum:
20°C (68 degrees Fahrenheit)

[PenGun]

Speak American, dadgummit. Whats that in Fahrenheit? :innocent:

I know its 'sposed to be 105 degrees in Cordoba tomorrow. That ain't Honduras hot (where it feels as if it were actually PUSHING you into the pavement), but still...

115 F ... s' pretty hot.

You guys should get past the size of the king's ass and maybe wander into the 21st century where the rest of the world is. ;).

[ChristopherKenworthy]

Use a camerahouse instead (don't know their real names). A white soft house that you wrap around the camera.

So these exist? I thought about building something like this, but my concern was that something close to the camera would insulate, or at least hold a layer of air that would insulate - and thus keep heat in. And I also worried about dust. You'd have to have somewhere very clean, near to the camera to store the thing within easy reach, and throw it on between shots. If anybody can find a link for something like this, please post.

[jbeale]

If the ambient humidity is low, evaporative cooling is very effective (eg. a fabric tent around the region of concern which is kept damp). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaporative_cooler You would still not get surface condensation if the object (eg. a running camera) generates its own heat, since it would be warmer than the immediate surroundings.

However this approach does not work well if the humidity is high.

[Craig Meadows]

New accessory idea. The red camera umbrella. Attaches easily to the red cage. :) Could be followed up with the Red beer cozy, Red cooler, Red frisbee, etc.

[Eugene]

Jim, Do you have a moisture sensor that will detect moisture and turn off the
red camera?

I've tried to be careful, but jumping in and out of air conditioning in a car with the camera in the trunk - I've triggered the humidity warning a few times both in the tropics and skiing no matter how I tried to warm or cool the camera before hand. I'd hate to hurt my RED. Is this issue addressed?

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=62320

Back a year ago on DVXuser when Jarred had the Red idea contest, I ranted on and on about heat, humidity, and my sweaty balls. Ignore the sweaty balls comments, but look back at some of my ideas.

Check out the link below. It was one of my ideas to use this chip in the RED camera.
http://www.sensirion.com/en/04_cmosens_technology/02_humidity.htm

If Jim thinks Spain is hot, he doesn't know what heat is. I have been to Borneo and the Amazon. It is so hot and humid in the Amazon, that your hair is always wet, even if you are motorboating down the river with the wind in your hair.

I live here in Miami. You guys in California are whimps.

[Greg Voevodsky]

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=62320

I live here in Miami. You guys in California are whimps.

Having shot 20+ days in Florida with your humidity, thunderstorms, hurricanes, alligators, and bugs, I can see why your condo's are all for sale right now.

There is a reason why Hollywood went to California and the reason is good weather to shoot. Now, if I need an affordable place to retire (and not be wimp (note correct spelling), Florida looks like the spot to be. ;-) (Note - my picture is from the Florida Keys with lots and lots of color correction.)

PS - Remember California has Death Valley that kicks Florida in hot temperatures and depth (below sea level) and some good cold weather too in something called mountains where frozen water (ie snow falls) something that is not available in Florida. ;-) except for Disney World's Matterhorn. PEACE.

[Tom Lowe]

jim maybe you could offer paint in that off-white cammo color that's on your jet and truck?

[Jannard]

It is not reasonable to think that there will not be a limit to what the camera can do. Even with all our efforts, some simple facts remain:

1. You are shooting 4k in the package of uprezzed 720P. And recording to Compact Flash. Think about that for a second.
2. We have two high power FPGA's and a Rocket I/O that make this all happen. They are furnaces.
3. There are limits to all electronics. We are offering so much for so little, the temptation is to think it will fold your clothes for you after laundry.
4. There is no other camera that can shoot in 105 degree temperature without some precautions.

Please be aware that while this camera may be a miracle and a revolution (for $17,500) it is not without limits. Our job is to make those limits as broad as possible.

Jim

[Greg Voevodsky]

Hi Jim,

I totally agree with you. My question, what about humidity?
Also ,what about the hard drives and heat?
Will they work in 100 degrees in the shade?

Any suggestions besides providing shade for the camera?
How did the ice bottles work?

[Jannard]

Hi Jim,

I totally agree with you. My question, what about humidity?
Also ,what about the hard drives and heat?
Will they work in 100 degrees in the shade?

Any suggestions besides providing shade for the camera?
How did the ice bottles work?

I think a gel pack was used today. They are recording to Compact Flash so I don't know for sure how hard drives would do, but I suspect they would do fine if kept in the shade.

Jim

[Andrew Benz]

I think a gel pack was used today. They are recording to Compact Flash so I don't know for sure how hard drives would do, but I suspect they would do fine if kept in the shade.

Jim

I bet the gel packs worked well. They are flexible and can conform to curves well while applying alot of "cold" to a large surface area ( thus dis.... heat...)-- the caveat would be condensation. Gibby had a great suggestion in an earlier thread for that though. Gel packs are in my kit for me :weight_lift: , now they can serve double duty in extreme situations for the camera as well.

[Greg Voevodsky]

How about the humidity?

I've heard that the camera is well sealed from dust and thus moisture, so what about the poor hard drives?

Should we bring some cold gels to the tropics with us?
Wrap them around the top so the bottom vents (I assume) with heat sinks can breathe?

Or am I just paranoid about reading about heat and hard drive failure. Is it ok in the short term. Bad in the long term? Or do we really need to cool it with shade and cold packs on hot sunny 105+ beaches in the tropics?

I just want to be safe? I've had humidity problems in the past... never heat problems (I cover the camera in shade)...

[Patrick]

Has anyone mentioned loading film in extreme heat? That's really annoying. It's difficult to avoid getting your finger oils all over the emulsion.

One of the many things that can be avoided with the RED camera.

[ChristopherKenworthy]

Has anyone mentioned loading film in extreme heat? That's really annoying. It's difficult to avoid getting your finger oils all over the emulsion.

One of the many things that can be avoided with the RED camera.

The last time I used film there were three times during the final day when the camera jammed. We were too far from base to get another camera, so we had to try to unjam it, and I had the joy of watching film spool all over the floor, three times. It wasn't just the cost of the stock, but the hours we lost. During one hour, we had no problems, and shot 12 minutes of glorious footage - which the lab ruined. I know film isn't always this annoying, but that was the end for me.

If I have to blow on the Red camera to keep it cool I'll be happy.

[Mardi_Gras]

... If I have to blow on the Red camera to keep it cool I'll be happy.

Come to think of it, if heat becomes the only Red issue we have to grapple with, then I'm pretty sure there will be very innovative ways of getting around it and having our happy-red-shoots as against you know what.

[Laco Zamba]

I'm pretty sure there will be very innovative ways of getting around it and having our happy-red-shoots as against you know what.

Yes. It's time for RED Mysterium Magic Cooler :)

[Brook Willard]

If the only issue is that preproduction models overheat in 110 degree weather... Well... I think they're doing ok so far.

[Milan Nikolic]

Jim, thanks on your honesty and all information. We have now in Serbia close to 120 degrees (46 Celzius) but lot of cool ladies as well.

[Edmund Boyle]

Speak American, dadgummit. Whats that in Fahrenheit? :innocent:


This is why we need Metric and Imperial measurements on lenses, feet vs. Metres as well as F-stops and T-stops so we can all avoid scratching our heads to work things out. :biggrin:

[Daniel Reichenbach]

By the river of Babylon: 46 Celsius are 114.8 Fahrenheid. As multilingual europeans we need to have some cool tools on our comps, they allow as to understand quiet the whole world :innocent: Give them a try km9000, it helps

[Sanjin Jukic]

Speak American, dadgummit. Whats that in Fahrenheit? :innocent:

I know its 'sposed to be 105 degrees in Cordoba tomorrow. That ain't Honduras hot (where it feels as if it were actually PUSHING you into the pavement), but still...


46 degree Celsius = 114.8 degree Fahrenheit

according to the Temperature Conversion/OnlineConversion.com
http://www.onlineconversion.com/temperature.htm

[wshultz]

Has anyone ever purchased a camera or piece of electronic gear that didn't list an operating range of temperature in the specs? I don't believe I've ever seen one that listed operating range above 104 to 107 F.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Here in Spain, Formentera is still very very hot and
also the girls are so friendly HOT and NICE to the local photographers.

Have a look below:

873

[Frank Weeks]

Here in Spain, Formentera is still very very hot and
also the girls are HOT friendly to the local photographers

Now that's a nice beach

[Robert Berger]

When you shoot in hot areas with a lot of direct sunlight you should cover your camera the same way as you do with film camera's. White covers or a umbrella, also good for your self.

[Hrvoje Simic]

Thanks for sharing.

Check this out.
Sounds revolutionary.

link (http://www.eneco.com/technology.html)

link (http://www.macsimumnews.com/index.php/archive/apple_reportedly_in_talks_with_eneco_on_new_energy _chip)

[Zach Hilton]

Thanks for sharing.

Check this out.
Sounds revolutionary.

link (http://www.eneco.com/technology.html)

link (http://www.macsimumnews.com/index.php/archive/apple_reportedly_in_talks_with_eneco_on_new_energy _chip)

That is interesting. Isn't that just the reverse of what the new cooling device that RED is going to have, or related technologies? If so, maybe in the future RED can incorporate that into the camera and convert the heat from the sensor to electricity to boost battery times or something. There obviously will be energy loss eventually, but, if one can harness the heat coming off of the thing and plug it back into the system...now that would be sweet. Easier said than done I suppose.

[Edmund Boyle]

Thanks for sharing.

Check this out.
Sounds revolutionary.

link (http://www.eneco.com/technology.html)

link (http://www.macsimumnews.com/index.php/archive/apple_reportedly_in_talks_with_eneco_on_new_energy _chip)

Good stuff Omen. Great Links. This is a good read for anyone interested in cooling technologies. Not only the ability to cool electrical components down but also the ability to turn heat into a power supply on a scale thats usable. If Apple is looking at it, there maybe something in it.

Still maybe far off in the future but then thats what they said about RED too..........:biggrin:

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Great to know about all the temp issues plus the peltier coolers on the production versions... I personally will be shooting in temps up to 130F (55C) on occasion. But I would fully expect to bring sun-shades and other gear for cooling equipment and people. If production cameras will be able to handle all-day exposure and use in 100F or hotter, then that's great. That's more than can be said for most people.

[jbeale]

Adding a P.C. means ultimately you have to reject that much more heat back to the environment (peltier cooler power + camera & sensor power + incident solar heat flux). But that's fine as long as the hot end connects to a good place on the camera for mounting an external heatsink / gel pad / water cooler / etc. And hopefully the cooler would be on a thermostat to avoid unnecessary battery drain in cooler environments.

If the sensor is going to be significantly cooled, does this mean we also need to put something like silica gel next to it to guard against surface condensation?

[Cail Young]

So, maybe some sort of attachment. There are lots of holes on that Premium Production Package. If anybody has ideas, let me know. And if I invent something good, I'll share.

http://www.thinkgeek.com/images/products/zoom/flyfan.jpg

[Eugene]

Will the gel pack boy make it into the credits at the end of the movie? Hey the caterers do. I guess it is like being the water boy for a football team.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

"Bombay" and "Romeo" are black. We are looking at paint options...

Black is still my favorite color... But if it needs to be changed, then I think they should be grey -- battleship grey. :)

[Ken Corben]

Although white is more reflective than black, the color is exponentially less significant than increased surface area for cooling the redone camera since the heat is generated internally and must therefore dissipate via radiation exchange (non-nuclear of course).

Although the internal cooling design is paramount, a significant enhancement in cooling may be obtained by machining channels(fins) in the top of the camera's metal body. This increases surface area, creates more air flow thru gradient and utilizes the principal that heat rises.

That said, the neoprene gel pack concept is a simple idea for location shoots in extreme temps. May work with heat pads in extreme cold also.

[Emanuel A.]

Black is still my favorite color... But if it needs to be changed, then I think they should be grey -- battleship grey. :)I wouldn't mind at all. We want a battleship after all!

[Andrew Benz]

Black is still my favorite color... But if it needs to be changed, then I think they should be grey -- battleship grey. :)


I wouldn't mind at all. We want a battleship after all!

Same here please! Would 18% grey matte with an optional cf cover w/res#(my #557--like a battleship) in raised numbers be too much!:)

[Corrado Silveri]

*edit* Our job is to make those limits as broad as possible.

Jim


This is what I need to hear. Extreme cold, humidity, hot? You need to be prepared for shooting. Not only with the Redone.

Even if your camera will ship with a glowing yellow/green, translucent, flamed&striped paint finish...

Btw, I love matte black.

[Robert Berger]

Very nice, we are now 6 months futher maybe the cooling chip is ready

[Corrado Silveri]

Do you think that there is another delay?
Jim never spoke about a problem in the timeline. The camera in use on the set in Spain are two eariy prototype. The production unit will be equipped with the cooling system.
Just what I've understand while reading this thread.