Can anybody give Stedicam advice...

[Jim Hoffman]

recommend a system that will work well but won't kill my wallet????

Also - what are the things to consider when buying/using a rig?

[Daniel Reichenbach]

Go to http://www.actionproducts.ch/. Brian Goffs steadycam is one of the best worldwide for a reasonable price. And GoffB is also a REDhead. There was a discussion some weeks ago. And, this steadycam looks very REDlike.

[Oliver Roetz]

Have a look at http://www.steadicamforum.com/forums/
There you'll find tons of information when you use the search function. It's probably a better place to ask about steadicam although I guess there are quite a few Ops around who can't wait flying RED...:wink:

Another must is Afton Grants http://www.steadishots.org/
It's not a forum but a phantastic database with lots of background information.

artsbeatsart mentioned actionproducts...another great system from europe you'll find here http://www.betz-tools.com/
Christian is a great guy with phantastic support...I've been flying his system for 3 years now and never had any problems.

Good luck...Oliver

[Tim Lüdin]

Yeah go check out actionproducts.ch
The actioncam rig is one of the very best out there.
Brian Goff was my DP and steadycam operator on my last movie. That thing rocks, is easy to use and looks very very REDish. :w00t:

Tim

[Priyesh P.]

Christian is a great guy with phantastic support...I've been flying his system for 3 years now and never had any problems.

Good luck...Oliver

Yeah, Christian's rig is superb. But Hoffman asked about something that won't kill his wallet, and "the rig" isn't cheap.
So Brian's system (actioncam) is among the most affordable and non-cheapish-made systems.

A little list (my opinion), please free to add your comments:
Professional:

Tiffen/Steadicam (makers of the original ones)
Pro (Paddock)
Camtech/Baer Bel
Actioncam
Sachtler Artemis
MK-V (sleds & alien rig)
Anthrazit Design
Rig engineering (arm/sled)

Still ok:
Glidecam

"The others":
ABC
ABA
Basson
Movcam

Fishy, warning!:
Pro Gear

[AftonGrant]

A couple questions (out of many) to consider prior to purchasing a rig: How do you plan to use it? How much can you spend on it?

How you plan on using it will determine which "class" of rig you will need. Your budget will determine which rigs from that class you are able to purchase. I would recommend trying to get the best rig, within your class, that you can afford. Although some may seem very expensive, I assure you there is really no gratuitous markup on the prices of the systems. They are fairly priced based upon manufacturing costs, quality, and market size. Put simply, a $60,000 system is more capable than a $30,000 system. However....

That is not to say that you need a $60,000 system. To determine what you need, ask yourself how you are looking to use the system. Will it be to accessorize your current kit, or will it become your primary source of income/career? Will you be using it with a certain type of camera (film, video, HD, DV, etc), or do you wish to be able to use it with anything asked of you? What type of work do you think you can get with it?

The more answers you have to each of those questions, the more accommodating your system will need to be. The more you think you will use it, the more reliable the system should be and the more important the customer service becomes. As those factors increase, so too will the cost of the system.

However, if you know, for example, you will only be shooting with one type of camera within a relatively small and non-diverse market, and you may not even use it that often, then you don't need to break your bank buying the state of the art system. You would buy only what you need, and nothing more.

It's difficult to answer your question "Can you recommend a rig" without knowing those details. If you're shooting a lot of 35mm, the answer would be much different than if you were shooting only prosumer cameras.

For anyone that's considering a stabilizer purchase, I would strongly recommend trying one out first. Workshops are offered relatively regularly throughout the country. If you can't get to one of those, try to get to know an operator near you. Chances are they'll let you try theirs out sometime. Be aware none of them, from the smallest up to the largest and all brands in between, none of them work magically right out of the box. They take a great deal of practice to achieve good results.

Best of luck,
Afton

PS...thanks for the plug, Oliver. Glad you like the site.

[Jim Hoffman]

Thanks for the directions. I initially planned on this being the primary system that is used exclusively with the RED - but considering the investment it would make sense to have some additional flex. - I don't want to go crazy on the cash but I also have learned to buy what will really work well - always cheaper in the long run. I am looking at all these sites and they are a great resource but I can see where it would be best to get a hands on demo.

Thanks so much for the info - anything more is always welcome - good stabilizer stories... concerns... falls down stairs or into fire hydrants...

Afton - love the Avatar

[donatello b]

"For anyone that's considering a stabilizer purchase, I would strongly recommend trying one out first"

excellent advice ... i almost bought one .. i decided to test em out ...
well after trying it out a few times*#$%%! since then i leave it to steadicam operators ( they are worth every $ ) ...

[Oliver Roetz]

Afton, you're more than welcome...the site you created deserves to be recommended...BTW did you ever have any trouble with copyrights?

Anyway, great post!

Regards, Oliver

[AftonGrant]

Afton, you're more than welcome...the site you created deserves to be recommended...BTW did you ever have any trouble with copyrights?

ixnay on the opyrightcay......

The truth is, no, I have yet to have any legal problems (knock on wood). That's probably due to a number of factors. My site is popular amongst below-the-line craftspeople such as us, but I don't think it reaches into the great masses of the population. It simply doesn't, nor do I ever intend it to call a ton of attention to itself. Quiet things like that tend to be left alone.

Additionally, the sole purpose of the site is educational. I want people to learn from the shots to make themselves better operators, better DP's, better directors. In film and TV these days, I think there is so much gratuitous camera movement. Much of it is unmotivated, confusing, boring, nauseating. The art of moving the camera (as opposed to the action of moving it) is an elusive one.

I don't want it to sound like each and every shot on the site is a scene from "Goodfellas". They aren't. However, within each shot, I try to find at least one or two elements that can be studied.

I only offer small pieces of each production. I strongly encourage viewers to actually make an attempt to watch the full film. A Steadicam shot by itself might be fun to watch, but it is being watched out of context. To truly understand why the shot was designed as it was, you have to watch the rest of the film.

The final thing I have going for me is I make absolutely no profit off of the site. There are some minimal advertisements, but in the history of the site, those have not brought in enough money to cover one month of hosting costs. The site is free to use and always will be.

Please continue enjoying!
Afton

[Jim McKinney]

Afton,

Sounds like your site falls under the "fair use" guidlines and you should be safe. Disclosure: I am not a lawyer (though I've shot a few.)

[Jeff Kilgroe]

i leave it to steadicam operators ( they are worth every $ ) ...

I want to point that out. Wise words. I've tried operating a steadicam here and there and it does require some skill. Mostly, it's practice and more practice and real-world experience. If you're going to own and operate a steadicam, be prepared to put in lots and lots of time getting good at using the thing and keeping yourself conditioned and familiar with using it. I wouldn't mind having one because they're fun to operate, but I can't justify it. Much more practical to just hire the experienced operator with the gear.

[Joel Kaye]

I want to point that out. Wise words. I've tried operating a steadicam here and there and it does require some skill. Mostly, it's practice and more practice and real-world experience. If you're going to own and operate a steadicam, be prepared to put in lots and lots of time getting good at using the thing and keeping yourself conditioned and familiar with using it. I wouldn't mind having one because they're fun to operate, but I can't justify it. Much more practical to just hire the experienced operator with the gear.

I have to agree with this generally. For difficult steadicam shots you need to be really good - ie hire a pro. For simpler stuff you could probably go handheld. I just watched "A Mighty Wind" and didn't really realize almost the whole thing was handheld until I listened to the commentary track. I remember the commentary on Firefly mentioned it was largely handheld and the Director wanted it MORE shaky because the operator was so smooth even handheld. You can do some good work handheld if you practice it.

I just smoothed some shots from a truck in After Effects and they came out great... I'm definitely going to be testing that with RED.

If you need the camera running through a field, or up and down stairs or other really complicated moves you're going to need a steadicam though.

[Poi Boy]

Talent is talent no matter what, it always rules...having said that I think people make a little too much about the difficulty of steadycam operation.
OK, bring on the flames.
Aloha
-A

[Priyesh P.]

a little report on some tiffen rigs:

http://aimediaserver4.com/studiodaily/videoplayer/?src=ai4/tiffen/tiffen.swf&width=480&height=400

[AftonGrant]

Talent is talent no matter what, it always rules...having said that I think people make a little too much about the difficulty of steadycam operation.
OK, bring on the flames.
Aloha
-A

I'm curious to know how you arrived at this conclusion. Perhaps you can be more elaborate when you discount the skills of an entire profession. Have you used a stabilizer before - and a real, full up 70+ pound rig too, not a little DV rig? I would love to see some footage you've personally shot with a stabilizer.

I'm not flaming yet. I'm actually hoping you are either kidding or have some strong evidence to back up such a statement. For now, I'm just curious.

[Poi Boy]

First of all I didn't discount the skills of all steadicam ops, I clearly stated that "TALENT ALWAYS RULES." What I questioned was the near brain surgery mistique that is sometimes associated with steadicam work. If you feel this is an insult there is not much I can do about that. As far as my experience, I have not operated a 70lb rig. I have practiced a bit with other operator's rigs in the 50lb range and with that experience decided that I will indeed buy one for Red.
You may now start flaming.
Aloha
-A

[AftonGrant]

First of all I didn't discount the skills of all steadicam ops, I clearly stated that "TALENT ALWAYS RULES." What I questioned was the near brain surgery mistique that is sometimes associated with steadicam work. If you feel this is an insult there is not much I can do about that. As far as my experience, I have not operated a 70lb rig. I have practiced a bit with other operator's rigs in the 50lb range and with that experience decided that I will indeed buy one for Red.
You may now start flaming.
Aloha
-A

I'm not going to flame. It's one of those situations where "if I had to explain, you wouldn't understand". I would absolutely consider a handful of the top Steadicam operators to be near genius at what they do. I think if you were to meet any of them, or have the pleasure of working with any of them, you might agree. I just found it a bit odd to speak of something in such a way when knowledge about it is limited. Like with any profession - cinematography, acting, car racing, surfing, whatever - there are elements to them all that an outsider would be completely unaware of. I don't know what they are, but I do know they exist and I respect the elite that have mastered them. This is why I don't think I can just get on a track, step on the gas, and race Mario Andretti even though to me it just looks like driving in a circle.

[Poi Boy]

I absolutely agree that the top people at anything are genius or near genius that is why I say that talent or "genius" if you prefer always rules. My limited experience testing rigs gives me enough feel for what it takes to know that I will become proficient. Mario is a great example; I have done a little bit of racing, enough to know I'll never be an F1 driver but also enough that I can do some pretty cool stuff behind the wheel. So... maybe I don't have what it takes to the best steadi op in the world but I know I'm going to have the ability to get great shots.
Aloha
-A