Nice "hot" day in Spain...

[Jannard]

Looks like things went much better today in Spain even though the temp was up a bit. We won't continue to give a day by day account, but it seems a system is now in place that everyone is comfortable with.

We are listening carefully to all comments from the shoot (that was the purpose) and continue to make adjustments to the program as we prepare for initial production.

I have taken a lot of flak on some boards (so I have been told) for being open about the R&D going on at the shoot. This whole idea of including the industry in our development has been a good thing overall. This board (Reduser) has made many suggestions that we have incorporated into our camera and accessories. The boards that make the most negative noise have contributed zero. It really is too bad since many on these boards are self-proclaimed experts. It would be easier to listen to criticism if it was productive in some small way. Sorry for the diatribe detour.

Jim

[IAN SUN]

Thank you Jim, we all really enjoy your updates. The insight is much appreciated.

[Brook Willard]

Good to hear... and always thanks for the updates.

Are you able to share what the cooling "system" is? Ziploc bags?

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Good to hear... and always thanks for the updates.

Are you able to share what the cooling "system" is?

Someone called in a favor:

http://www-vlsi.stanford.edu/~jsolomon/clan9/personnel_images/nilla_real.gif

[Seth Larney]

Thanks for the updates Jim.

I'm sure you know how positively your being open about the R&D process has impacted alot of us. I own a production company down here in Australia and that very approach that you're speaking of has helped me to excite more than one high profile producer down here about the Red's viability. The open attitude really helps to foster a sense of trust.

Cheers mate, keep up the good work.
Seth.

[Michael Schrengohst]

*edit - The boards that make the most negative noise have contributed zero. It really is too bad since many on these boards are self-proclaimed experts. It would be easier to listen to criticism if it was productive in some small way. Sorry for the diatribe detour.

Jim

Screw em', most of those guys are pissed because they already
have a gravy train in place. They see the RED One coming down
the track and realize the gravy is about to run dry.

[squinonescolon]

That's the old guard for you. Viva la revolucion!
Steven

[Steve Freebairn]

We will the miss the day by day. I think the biggest thing from the other boards is that those people really don't know what Red is doing. The people I've talked to (not that I know a ton of people, but still) don't seem to know even the basics of Red. They know it is a 4k digital camera, but then they say stupid things about "how you gonna hold all that data," obviously they don't know that the Red Team has worked miracles with the data rate. Anyway, we appreciate the updates.

[I Bloom]

Screw em', most of those guys are pissed because they already
have a gravy train in place. They see the RED One coming down
the track and realize the gravy is about to run dry.

I think you've hit the nail on the proverbial head. Jim will get his poetic justice from the naysayers, when they order a RED.

IBloom

[Alex Boothby]

Someone called in a favor:

http://www-vlsi.stanford.edu/~jsolomon/clan9/personnel_images/nilla_real.gif

haha. Ice is nice.

[Poi Boy]

I don't really think it has much to do with gravy or trains. People in general just don't like change and BOY! are things changing. Also, you can't fix stupid so don't worry too much about the other guys.
Aloha
-A

[Eugene]

http://www.dryicedirectory.com/Countries/Spain.htm
Will dry ice help?

[S. Um]

It's not the problems that you have that matter, it's the way you handle them. The fact that Red listens to its customers and corrects the problems immediately says a lot for the company.

[Tonaci Tran]

when I saw the thread title.. I was hoping to see a cool shot of the RED cam with an insane "mcguyver" rigged up cooling system. hehe

[Dale Launer]

There was talk about an unpainted version of the camera. I think that's a good idea - I love the machined "billet" look. And it probably would keep it cooler. (I have some Emeco bare alumimum chairs I keep outside - and even in the hot sun - they're not hot.

"Cool to the touch even in the hot sun " source

http://www.csnstores.com/Emeco-1006-1006-Navy-Chair-EMO1000.html

A couple ideas about possible cooling.

1. I don't know exactly what you're doing now, but having a device constantly blowing air on the sensor, and another that sucks the air off - could serve a double purpose; besides cooling it, a constant rush of air would keep dust off the sensor. (Especially if there's a filter in the loop)

2. Using the aluminum case more effectively. Each panel could actually be two - with machined slots on each side which, when pressed together in clamshell fashion could form cooling chambers, or a long, looping hole that goes back and forth through the body, etc, not unlike how an engine block of a car is hollowed out with water jackets - you could have an internal grid which make the case work like a radiator. Also, if the path loops and exhausts, the length of the looping path would keep the mechanical noise down.

Along these same lines, lotsa ridges on the outside of the body to work as heat sinks/cooling fins. It also lightens the camera a bit. I think you could have a lot of fun in the industrial design department playing with this idea - start thinking motorcycles. More ridges increases handling grip.

3. Wacky idea (just had to throw on it to round out the number to three. But CO2 cartridges are ubiquitous and when discharged give off a cool air. If you could have a slot, that when need, can be loaded up with a cartridge that slowly releases the charge, dropping the temp. I have no idea if this would work, but it would drop the temp. Not sure how long the cartridge would last - and you don't need or want a noisy, powerful stream, just one that drops the temp - like NOS. If one could last half a day it might make sense when using in the hottest climates.

Lastly - a little food for thought; aluminum is a great heat conductor, copper is better, but the best of all? Silver. Might come in handy. Maybe if you're on Jeopardy.

[Jason Francois]

It's not the problems that you have that matter, it's the way you handle them. The fact that Red listens to its customers and corrects the problems immediately says a lot for the company.

Well said.

[Jarred Land]

3. Wacky idea (just had to throw on it to round out the number to three. But CO2 cartridges are ubiquitous and when discharged give off a cool air. If you could have a slot, that when need, can be loaded up with a cartridge that slowly releases the charge, dropping the temp. .

heh heh you know what.. this is actually a pretty good idea (i think).

[Jannard]

I think a floppy gel pack would be a lot cheaper...

Jim

[Hodges Usry]

Jim Rocks.

[Shawn Nelson]

Wait a second, at my work in embedded engineering, we have a can of "cold air" that we use to hit overheating boards with, drops the temperature like a rock. Couldn't an AC just back that in place of the normal CanOAir?

Then in between takes the AC hits it again, should relieve the need for constant gell packs that cause liquid condensation and thus are messy.

[Mardi_Gras]

Jim,

Thanks for the open R&D policy that continues to trounce everything in the "established corporate strata" ala the competition.

My question is, since I intend to use my R1 mostly in Africa, where the average temperature is about 100F all year round, what do you propose would be the most cost effective and viable way to manage the heat issue, taking into consideration that the camera kit will be rented out in some cases, without me nor a camera assistant from my side accompanying it?

[Jannard]

Let's see where we stand with the 1st production build and the new sensor cooler. But gel packs and shade seem to be working fine in Spain.

Jim

[Mardi_Gras]

As always, appreciate you and your team's presence on these boards. Mucho gracias!

[ChristopherKenworthy]

I have taken a lot of flak on some boards (so I have been told) for being open about the R&D going on at the shoot. This whole idea of including the industry in our development has been a good thing overall. This board (Reduser) has made many suggestions that we have incorporated into our camera and accessories.
Jim

With most companies your chances of talking to the boss are zero. With Red, we usually get a response on the board, from the boss, in an hour or so. It's weird, but it works. And it's great to know that Reduser is feeding back into the camera. This culture you've developed could be as important as the camera itself, and something that other companies will struggle to copy.

[jbeale]

The cans of PC board chiller solutions I've seen spray a liquid that quickly evaporates. While the liquid is evaporating the board or device under test shows frost and gets down to -40 C or below. You could not cool any real heat-generating device with this for any significant length of time though, you'd run through a can very quickly. I guess the cans of cold air are similar but expel the gas just after it's boiled off the liquid while still inside the can. I think you would still run through it fairly quickly if you spray enough to really drop the temperature.

A gel pack seems like a very quick, easy, reusable solution. If there is a threat of condensation, you want to cool the camera only just enough, not to try for maximum cold. Depending on the conditions you might separate the gel pack slightly from the camera, wrap it in a cloth, or something.

On the other hand, if the camera is well sealed, some condensation on the exterior body may not matter anyway. I assume the lens front element would be somewhat insulated from the camera body just by distance and many mechanical interfaces, so I'd guess less danger of dew there.

[Poi Boy]

yeah, as I mentioned before shade and dust off worked for me. No wet to deal with.
-A

[Evin Grant]

Jim, I think I've found the perfect solution to your heat problem...
http://www.reduser.net/evin/RedBeer.jpg
...Although I'd recomend finding a better coolant:cold:

[Mardi_Gras]

Your heatwave R1 accessory....

[Emanuel A.]

Thanks for the update.

E.

[Patrick Jennings]

you could always adapt the 'the worlds first jet powered beer cooler' :D - http://www.asciimation.co.nz/beer/index.html

http://www.asciimation.co.nz/beer/engine2.jpg

"The engine itself will run at up to 100000 rpm with exhaust temperatures of around 500 C and noise levels in excess of 125 dBA. The beer is successfully chilled to a nice cool 2 C."

[Ace]

http://www.tshirtwatch.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/paris-hilton-thats-hot.jpg

[PaulClements]

Well no one here in the UK is too worried about their camera overheating... now waterproofing that's another matter. I mean it's the height of summer and we're having the worst floods ever? So very dumb! Time to move abroad me thinks!

[roryhinds]

I guess this is why film will never die, its just to robust.

Thanks for sharing Jim.

Regards
Rory

[ChristopherKenworthy]

I guess this is why film will never die, its just to robust.
Regards
Rory

Did you miss my story about my last film shoot, with film spooling out, hours disappearing, labs spoiling shots? And I was working with a good crew and a reputable lab.

Maybe you were trying to raise a smile, because you certainly did. I remember, just 10 years ago, photographers were still saying digital would never replace film. It did.

[Frank Weeks]

With most companies your chances of talking to the boss are zero. With Red, we usually get a response on the board, from the boss, in an hour or so. It's weird, but it works. And it's great to know that Reduser is feeding back into the camera. This culture you've developed could be as important as the camera itself, and something that other companies will struggle to copy.

Well put.

The best advertising is word of mouth and our business is a tight knit group.

Jim's willingness to share and listen will create one of the most loyal customer bases imaginable. I am proud to be part of the revolution.

[Craig Schober]

Did you miss my story about my last film shoot, with film spooling out, hours disappearing, labs spoiling shots? And I was working with a good crew and a reputable lab.

Maybe you were trying to raise a smile, because you certainly did. I remember, just 10 years ago, photographers were still saying digital would never replace film. It did.

what happened to you was an isolated incident. hd cameras overheating is commonplace. when it comes to temperature extremes (rare for most productions), there is still no digital camera system that beats a sturdy 16mm or 35mm camera.

[Frank Weeks]

what happened to you was an isolated incident. hd cameras overheating is commonplace. when it comes to temperature extremes (rare for most productions), there is still no digital camera system that beats a sturdy 16mm or 35mm camera.

You might be correct, but I won't miss buying stock, paying for development not to mention transfer.... and I was only shooting 16mm.

[PaulClements]

I know which one I'd prefer to lug around in extreme temperatures though, working or not :)

[ChristopherKenworthy]

what happened to you was an isolated incident. hd cameras overheating is commonplace. when it comes to temperature extremes (rare for most productions), there is still no digital camera system that beats a sturdy 16mm or 35mm camera.

I must admit that I wasn't aware of this HD-heating problem until this rush of news in the past few days. But, hey, film going bad is not an isolated incident. Did you see how many days they lost on Lord of The Rings due to lab/film problems? Too many. I'll keep my Red cool, and my last few reels of Kodak 400T just went in the bin.

[number6]

http://www.tshirtwatch.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/paris-hilton-thats-hot.jpg

Haaaaah Hah Hah... so, the "o' baby's" and "oh yeah's" and "more! more!'s" were added in post?

[Siva Kollipara]

Please don't post such babe photos, the camera is getting even hotter.

[Paul Hazlett]

if the camera had its own body glove type of cover where you could slide in gel packs in and out of and channels internal to route cold round the whole
body and flaps for all ports. or possibly have the pack connected via tubes and hung on the tripod.

the bodyt glove could also be water resistant. probably not flood resistant...sorry londoners

[Joel Kaye]

It would be easier to listen to criticism if it was productive in some small way.

Some people just suck and they don't like the idea of a couple thousand other people getting into their business and exposing their weaknesses as artists. The truly talented people have nothing to worry about and want to see RED be great. Those are the encouraging people giving the good suggestions.

And you're smart to be the one who releases the news as opposed to letting it be rumors from the set posted to the Internet that may vary wildly from reality. Keep it up.

(In Phoenix it really is hot, so please figure the cooling system out :-)

[damonbots]

These schmucks on other boards spewing out hot air are contributing to global warming. If they would just shut up, we wouldn't have to worry about extreme temperatures.

[Cail Young]

what happened to you was an isolated incident. hd cameras overheating is commonplace.

Maybe 70 years from now when digital acquisition's been around for as long as film has and we've all had the benefit of decades of mistakes and we've nailed exactly how to handle things so to minimise problems that would be a fair comparison. As it stands, it isn't. This is as BS as the argument the faculty at my shortsighted university puts forth which is that tapeless post is "too risky" when compared to film/telecine post.

[Eugene]

Ok. How about a cup holder for the red (like the beer hat) except that you put a can of NOS energy drink in it instead, for the under age 21 users of Red. :tongue:

http://www.junkfoodblog.com/uploaded_images/nos-energy-drink-701064.jpg

[Evin Grant]

Dude I drank one of those once and was up for 36 hours. It's way more dangerous than a brew.:bye2:

[Jeff Kilgroe]

A friend of mine downed two cans of some energy drink (I think it was the Monster one) within a total of about 15 minutes or so. He ended up in the ER with an irregular heartbeat. I'm not sure why people drink any of that stuff.

[Ace]

Those energy drinks are actually more potent than Ephedra when taken by someone with little body mass.

[Larry]

Maybe an idea which will not lead anywhere. But, are you aware of the semiconductors that can be used to convert heat directly to electricity? The effeiciency of such converter is about 10-15% at the best. If the temperature of the sensor is high, that could, perhaps, help. I remember reading an article in which some group claimed these converters could be used to cool down electronics.

[Joe Vinson]

http://www-vlsi.stanford.edu/~jsolomon/clan9/personnel_images/nilla_real.gif
So RED was the "brand new invention" that Ice was back for? I for one am glad he took the time to "collaborate and listen."

[Billy Summers]

So RED was the "brand new invention" that Ice was back for? I for one am glad he took the time to "collaborate and listen."

Well said AKABAKA, I totally agree:biggrin:

[Christoffer Glans]

Will there be more footage from RED? We see alot of images around here and alot of images of shooting with RED, but it would be nice to see some updates in the gallery section or somewhere here on the boards with some 2K/1080p footage.

Is there a possibility to see any footage before the release?