Cinevate Durus or ARRI FF-4 ? [Archive]

Jeff Kilgroe

08-09-2009, 08:36 PM

Two different things there... The FF-4 is great in so many ways, but it's also very large.

With upcoming cameras getting smaller and lighter, it makes sense to me to start trimming the fat in other places. I almost ordered an Arri MFF-1 and I still may buy one as I've used it and really like it... But I've actually just ordered the Durus and will give it a try. It seems to be getting great reviews and it's just a bit more than half the price of the MFF-1. Mostly I'm intrigued by the Durus and will see how it works for me. I like the Arri as it's quicker and easier to reverse directions and also has the ability to set hard stops. Then again, switching directions is not something I do often and I really don't need the hard stop feature...

Anyway, sorry if this isn't much help... Just sharing my own thought process on the matter.

I formerly owned an FF-3, so I'm used to the bigger FF units

Dustin Cross

08-09-2009, 08:46 PM

I got a Cavision dual sided 19mm follow focus as a compromise and I am very happy. It took a little adjustment, but now it is great and for around $1200.

http://www.cavision.com/followfocus/RFGD1915.htm

Dusty

Rick Darge

08-09-2009, 08:47 PM

I've been thinking along your lines Jeff. Thanks for the reply. Please let me know your thoughts on the Durus after you receive it. Aesthetically, I like the look of the Durus more than the lightweight ARRI.

Does anyone in Los Angeles have a Durus I could come by and checkout for 10 minutes?

NateWeaver

08-09-2009, 09:09 PM

Hey Rick,

The Durus I don't think is gonna fly in our market. You're going to find a lot of lenses it won't work with. Bite the bullet and get an FF4. Nobody will EVER complain about it. If you can't swing that, get the MF-1.

I thought you had a Chrosziel anyway?

I'd recommend a Willytec but it seems the couple that were for sale are gone now. They went for $2500-ish

Brandon Fraley

08-09-2009, 09:24 PM

Hey Rick,

The Durus I don't think is gonna fly in our market. You're going to find a lot of lenses it won't work with.

Which lenses will the durus not work with?

NateWeaver

08-09-2009, 10:16 PM

Which lenses will the durus not work with?

I don't know specifically, I haven't tested it. I do know from experience that units without swinging gear arms tend to have some more issues than the ones that don't.

Brandon Fraley

08-09-2009, 10:51 PM

I don't know specifically, I haven't tested it. I do know from experience that units without swinging gear arms tend to have some more issues than the ones that don't.

in practice, though, isn't the durus as a whole a "swinging gear arm"?

NateWeaver

08-09-2009, 11:27 PM

in practice, though, isn't the durus as a whole a "swinging gear arm"?

Yes. Which means that the larger body of the whole piece sometimes does not reach into places it needs to without the rest of the marking disc/knob assembly getting in the way.

XiaoSu Han

08-09-2009, 11:57 PM

FF4. Never look back again

Rick Darge

08-09-2009, 11:59 PM

hehe

Brandon Fraley

08-10-2009, 12:23 AM

Yes. Which means that the larger body of the whole piece sometimes does not reach into places it needs to without the rest of the marking disc/knob assembly getting in the way.

Check out this video if you haven't: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7wlCFrUXCU

I don't have experience with the Durus or many other FF's for that matter, so I can't speak knowledgeably on the practicalities of all this, but it seems to be very versatile in it's "swinging" nature, and even lets you adjust the position of the disc/knob and the side on which the gear is placed, which would seem to address that issue.

Rick Darge

08-10-2009, 12:44 AM

Thanks Brandon. That Durus looks pretty amazing.. & 1/4 the cost of an FF4

Brigham Edgar

08-10-2009, 03:52 AM

I recently bought the Durus FF set up for 19mm rods and i can tell you it is good bang for the buck. It came with the additional gear to fit smaller lenses like the zeiss mk3's as well.

The unit is extremely solid in construction and very smooth in operation, and especially very little slop at all. It can be configured in almost any way with the whole unit obviously adjustable because of the single rail mount design...which by the way is absolutely rock solid on the rails and does not slip at all. Add to this the actual unit can then spin on another axis so it can be operated from directly underneath or overhead, or any other position if using top rails as well. The focal point marker is also adjustable so that it can be set up for odd angles too.

I am not a focus puller, but a DP, but so far both myself and the two different focus pullers that have used it are very happy with it. It does have a couple of small niggly things i would have done differently and can definately be improved (focus wheel screw & magnets on removable marking ring) but in a whole it is very good, especially for the money. The main reason i bought it was because of the 19mm rails and my 18-85mm which is so frickin large it will only accommodate a certain few FF units:) Oh yeah, and the FF isn't a small unit so don't get too excited.

So for me it's a thumbs up.

Brandon Fraley

08-10-2009, 12:51 PM

Oh yeah, and the FF isn't a small unit so don't get too excited.

How much does it weigh?

Shawn Nelson

08-10-2009, 01:36 PM

gave up on a FF2 chop job eh? :-)

Rick Darge

08-10-2009, 07:36 PM

Haha yea, I think so Shawn.

Jeff Kilgroe

08-10-2009, 07:59 PM

This is a question for Brigham I guess, or anyone else with the Durus... Do any of you know how well it works with the RPP's??? I swapped emails with someone tonight who says they took the Durus for a test drive and used it with their new set of RPP's... I guess the Durus didn't do all that well, the included gear was too fat or something and it had noticeably more lash than the MFF.

...Comments?

I guess I'll find out shortly, although they haven't shipped mine yet. I suppose I'm just having potential remorse at this point because I haven't actually used the Durus yet. I keep telling myself I should cancel and just buy the MFF-1 and get it over with.

As for the larger FF-4, I can just rent one when needed. And it does come up -- some clients will accept no substitutes, even if the substitute has the Arri name stamped on it. I formerly owned an FF3, but don't anymore... That's a whole other discussion right there.

NateWeaver

08-10-2009, 08:44 PM

I don't have experience with the Durus or many other FF's for that matter, so I can't speak knowledgeably on the practicalities of all this, but it seems to be very versatile in it's "swinging" nature, and even lets you adjust the position of the disc/knob and the side on which the gear is placed, which would seem to address that issue.

I have used a fair amount of units. I was an AC for quite a while.

The Durus definitely seems to be as smart as possible given it's design. But it's not going to work with everything.

Brandon Fraley

08-10-2009, 09:36 PM

I have used a fair amount of units. I was an AC for quite a while.

The Durus definitely seems to be as smart as possible given it's design. But it's not going to work with everything.

wouldn't that be true of anything? It sounds like the big difference is price and potentially weight. Anyone have a comparison of the heft of these two units?

Rick Darge

08-10-2009, 10:16 PM

I formerly owned an FF3, but don't anymore... That's a whole other discussion right there.

Please elaborate.. I love gossip

Rick Darge

08-10-2009, 10:43 PM

Also Jeff, why the MFF-1? What separates that from the Durus?

NateWeaver

08-10-2009, 10:50 PM

Also Jeff, why the MFF-1? What separates that from the Durus?

Jim Elias has 10 years experience designing follow focus units, and was a crack 1st AC for 10 years before that.

Rick Darge

08-10-2009, 10:54 PM

Hard to decide now,

$1,200 for the Durus
$2,100 for the MFF-1
$3,800 for the FF-4

Jeff Kilgroe

08-10-2009, 10:56 PM

The short version is UPS lost it. I rented it to someone and they returned it on schedule... Package made it to the local UPS facility and then vanished. I called asking what was up, package was supposed to be delivered, tracking info shows that nothing happened to it after it arrived in town the night before.

Somehow the label pouch got ripped off the flight case -- like completely ripped the front of the plastic pouch and label off and the back side of the pouch with adhesive was presumably still stuck to the case. They found the label... Had me come down to see if I could identify what the label was supposed to be attached to. But they didn't have my case with the FF3 inside. So after about another 10 days of apologies from UPS while they continued to "investigate" and "look for it", they gave up and paid the insurance claim. I've been renting an FF3 or FF4 ever since.

I didn't actually own the FF-3 for very long, only about 6 months. I got a hell of a deal picking up that kit used and in really good condition, but obviously well used. Worked perfect... After that experience, I don't make a habit of shipping my gear, I keep it local. Not that UPS and FedEx lose things very often. They do, but it's pretty rare and the gear is probably a lot more likely to be stolen out of my car or out of a rental customer's vehicle while here in town anyway.

I kept planning on buying an FF-4, but never did... Now I've decided to go smaller and cheaper and continue to rent the large unit when needed, so I ordered the Durus the other day, just based on a few reviews. I've used the MFF-1 and almost ordered it, but I figured I'd check out the Durus first... If it works as well for my purposes, then it'll save me about $850.

Evin Grant

08-10-2009, 11:23 PM

A note about versatility...
The Durus seems like a nice little unit, but it's a one trick, one side pony. Even if it does all it claims (I'd guess it does) it's still going to frustrate you and slow you down when you're AC has to pull off all the AKS to switch it to the other side and then reset his marks. An FF4 is a sizable investment but a very versatile one, capable of all rod standards including lightweight video (Scarlet?) and can also take the sizable amount of extensions, adapters and specialized gears that has made the FF series the rental house work horse. And it's not as heavy as it might seem once stripped down.

Rick Darge

08-10-2009, 11:54 PM

Evin, you're such an expensive friend... lol

Brandon Fraley

08-11-2009, 12:01 AM

it's still going to frustrate you and slow you down when you're AC has to pull off all the AKS to switch it to the other side and then reset his marks.

that is certainly true. I'm still curious how the two compare weight wise, though.

Brigham Edgar

08-11-2009, 01:37 AM

Jeff, i havn't had a chance to test it out on a set of RPP's yet unfortunately. And i just recently cancelled my order for these lenses so i am not sure when i will get a chance.
In regards to the gears, they have two sizes available...make sure you order the alternative as it is larger and provides different clearances for different lenses.
Also, if i had lot of $ sitting around i would have bought an FF4 but for jobs and rentals or for an AC's choice that want the best they can easily rent one. I havn't also had the opportunity to use the arri lightweight but i hadn't with the Durus also. I bought it based on a few reviews and looking at what if offers and how it is built. Finally i decided to take the gamble and buy it over the Arri because of the $ saving essentially and i believed it looked to be a great product.
All in all i am very happy with the purchase and it works great and is extremely flexible. Yes the AC has to flip the gear and re-align marks if changing sides but heh, i have to adjust my EVF, lcd etc. It works well, feels like you could drive a truck over it and is nice and smooth and as before extremely flexible to different lenses and positional setups. I don't know the weight but it's much of a muchness with other units, it's machined aluminium.

But the little niggly things...

1. The centre screw in the focus wheel needs to be done up quite tight and possibly even with some thread lock because if it isn't the whole wheel can turn and not move the gears...if there is sufficient lens resistance..then you are not focus pulling, just turning a wheel and your marks will need to be reset.
2. The magnets that hold the marker ring on to the focus wheel have already come off and needed to be re-glued.
3. The alternative gear that gives extra body clearance for lenses like Zeiss mk3 speeds on a RED reduces a little of the movement of the adjustable focal point marker. This is such a small thing so does not really count.
4. Small amount of lag, but it's pretty good.

Like i said, not big things and considering the build quality and flexibility of the unit combined with the small $ paid...i am very happy and when the circumstance and budget allows i can always get in an FF4.

Jeff Kilgroe

08-11-2009, 08:10 AM

Thanks Brigham,

I was just about to cancel my Durus order and your few comments pushed me over. They updated me this morning saying it's still another 2 to 3 weeks before they can ship the unit and I need to have it within the next 10 days. So now it looks like it's MFF-1 for me... I don't know, I may just get the FF-4 and be done with it. I can always sell it later if I really need to go more compact.

Dustin Cross

08-11-2009, 08:43 AM

I am telling you guys the CAvision dual sided 19mm FF is worth looking at. It is not an FF4, but it is the best I have found for the price. Mine has less than 1mm of backlash, is dual sided, and cost under $1200.

Mahalo,
Dusty

Jeff Kilgroe

08-11-2009, 08:54 AM

Dustin,

I looked at the CAVISION when it first came out. It's not bad for the price at all and I did consider it. I think what turned me off from it is if I was going to go for a full-width, double sided FF kit, I would just get the Arri. I know, the Arri is 3X the price... But it's also the one everyone wants to have in the rental kit.

Evin makes some really good points above -- especially about the FF-4 when stripped down. It natively mounts onto 15mm lightweight rods, so becomes much smaller and lighter in that configuration. You can save about $400 off an FF-4 kit (for 19mm folks) if you go with a good 60mm to 19mm adapter rather than Arri's FF-4 19mm mount. For 15mm offset folks, you're probably best off to just get the 15mm studio mount.

...Screw it. I think I'll be getting the FF-4.

Dustin Cross

08-11-2009, 09:21 AM

I completely agree, the FF4 is what everyone wants, but if you can't afford it and are making compromises...

I replaced my Redrock FF with the CAvision. The Redrock is a great little FF. Brevis makes great stuff. The Petroff/Zacuto FF is nice. But not having a dual sided FF just became too much hassle for me. Plus the gear box on my Redrock and most of these is a problem with short lenses. It either gets in the way of the camera body or the matte box. I have been on a lot of Red shoots where b cam shows up with one of these one sided FF and can't use his matte box and FF at the same time.

Bottom line, if you can afford the FF4, get it, if you are considering alternatives, the CAvision is under $1200, dual sided, supports 19mm and 15mm, has less than 1mm backlash, and is the only choice if you can't afford the FF4.

Mahalo,
Dusty

Blair S. Paulsen

08-11-2009, 09:39 AM

I would have thought the Arri MFF-1 would be "the" budget alternative to the venerable FF-4. Arri quality for $2K - what's not to like?

BTW - I have owned Cavision kit in the past and it did not hold up in the field, YMMV.

Cheers - #19

Dustin Cross

08-11-2009, 09:48 AM

I heard CAvision completely redesigned their FF. My current unit has worked great on a couple features and several small projects since I bought it a few months ago.

Granted all the CAvision stuff I have used in the past has been total crap, but I am very happy with this FF.

Dusty

Rick Darge

08-11-2009, 02:49 PM

Jeff

what is this cheaper adaptor you speak of? I'd like a $400 discount!

NateWeaver

08-11-2009, 02:59 PM

Eric J. Johnston

08-11-2009, 04:03 PM

Jeff

what is this cheaper adaptor you speak of? I'd like a $400 discount!

Abel makes one, 19mm to LW15. It's not snap-on though, which is a big deal to some ACs. It's a real time-suck to have to pull the MB to reconfig the FF.

Here's the AB-1519 adapter on the ARRI MMB-1 and MFF-1. Abel Cine Tech also has the AB-1515 which is 15mm bridge to 15mm LWS. They are very useful as a general AC kit piece for adapting the unexpected. Saved me twice at NAB this year!

Eric J. Johnston

08-11-2009, 04:10 PM

View from back-

Jeff Kilgroe

08-11-2009, 04:16 PM

The Abel one is one option, but kinda pricey at $325. I could swear that Zacuto makes one, but don't see it on their site. Come to think of it, I think they may have canned that product when they released the Jeep... RED sells their 19 to 15 adapter for $95, it attaches to the top of a Universal Mount and then you give it a couple short 15mm rods. ET has solutions to adapt to 15mm lightweight rods as well.

With most 19 to 15 adapters, they either have 15mm nubs as part of the adapter or you use short rods (like 3 inches). In most cases, clip-on isn't completely necessary as the FF could be pulled off the nubs or short rods of the adapter without sliding off the mattebox or other gear in front of it.

I guess the way I was looking at it is I already have the RED 19 to 15 adapter, plus another 19 to 15 adapter similar to Abel's that I made myself. So I don't need the Arri BA-2 to mount the FF-4 to 19mm rods. Looking at it now, if you have a spare RED universal mount, you could pick up their 19 to 15 adapter and a pair of 3" ET ultra rods ($135 total plus tax/shipping). vs. the ~$475 for the Arri BA-2. Not as elegant, but a solution...

Evin Grant

08-11-2009, 05:55 PM

IMO the ability to snap the FF-4 on and off the rods without pulling off any other AKS is a huge time saver. It all depends on your needs but I wouldn't bother with the extra $ for the FF-4 if you're not going to get all the benefits. I think my whole kit cost $4200 new from Abel, including the unit, left hand knob, 15mm studio adapter, prime gear #2 (You have to request this specifically) and a free 18" whip.

Brandon Fraley

08-11-2009, 06:32 PM

IMO the ability to snap the FF-4 on and off the rods without pulling off any other AKS is a huge time saver.

The Redrock Micro FF has this feature as well, for those on a budget.

NateWeaver

08-11-2009, 07:30 PM

The Redrock Micro FF has this feature as well, for those on a budget.

Right. It appears that RR has taken a piece that Arri and others charge a premium for and made it a good chunk more affordable. When I started ACing those snap on bridges were effectively non-existent...after I used one I thought it was a godsend.

Rick Darge

08-20-2009, 03:42 PM

Even though it hurt real bad like, I bought an FF-4 today.. Solid piece of gear..

Jeff Kilgroe

08-20-2009, 05:35 PM

Yeah, it's a bit painful. I'm not lookin' back though... No regrets here, should be a FF purchase that stings only once.

Zakaree Sandberg

08-20-2009, 06:33 PM

i got a ff-2 for 1500 and there is a mod you can get for 200 bucks that will turn it into a snap on

Shawn Nelson

08-20-2009, 06:44 PM

i got a ff-2 for 1500 and there is a mod you can get for 200 bucks that will turn it into a snap on

what mod is this? the rods holes for 15mm/105mm are from the same solid piece of aluminum that makes up the main body. I had to have a machinist carefully cut off the bottom of mine such that I could put it on top of 19mm

Rick Darge

08-21-2009, 03:27 AM

Yea Zak, speak up. What mod are you talking about? I spoke to ARRI reps, ABEL reps, Redusers, there weren't many options to get an FF-2 onto some 19mm rails other than hacking it off ala the Nelson method, or just going all 15

John Pinella

08-30-2009, 06:44 PM

So, has anyone USED the Arri MFF-1?

Mitch Gross

08-30-2009, 07:55 PM

So, has anyone USED the Arri MFF-1?

Trust me, we've sold plenty. A lot of people are either using their MFF-1 follow focuses or put them in a glass cabinet to admire the craftsmanship.

Zakaree Sandberg

08-30-2009, 09:51 PM

sorry guys.. havent seen this in a while.. let me find the mod.. the guy does it down in Australia i believe

KETCH ROSSi

08-31-2009, 11:07 PM

I second Blair with the Cavision, not a good FF at al, even at that price, it is not a pro tool , by large, as far as the RRMicro FF, is good for the price but again not a pro tool and not for Cine lenses.

To second Mitch, Abel I just shipped out at my place, here in Vegas the Arri FF-1, for by buddy Luca, and it is a little piece of wonder, and the price it is sure right.

My positive evaluation of the currently available FF exception of the DANAN which I have not touched or used, the Arri FF-1 and Arri FF-4 are the only ones I'm considering.

Btw Mitch please have James put those on my quote as well. Would I be able to use the FF-1 with the RPZ 18-85?

ciao

Mitch Gross

09-01-2009, 08:07 AM

Ketch, the MFF-1 does in fact work well with the RED 18-85 zoom. And Ketch, you should talk to James directly so that we make sure to get the right items on your quote. I'm always happy to help -- just want to make sure we get you the right stuff.

KETCH ROSSi

09-01-2009, 09:06 AM

Thanks Mitch, will send a follow up mail to James now.

ciao

Dennis Wood

09-03-2009, 09:53 PM

Jean Déraps

09-08-2009, 08:46 AM

Dennis,
how does one convert the lens from clockwise to counter-clockwise?
Thanks

Brigham Edgar

09-15-2009, 03:28 PM

Brigham, the issues you had raised in post 29 have been addressed :-) The only thing I'd add to the discussion are these items.

1. We're the only ones of the bunch with a lifetime warranty.
2. The Durus FF can be quickly swapped to both sides, and yes, you'd have to slide off your mattebox to do this. With our rails system, about 10 seconds to do this.
3. Our new focus gears (for lenses without gearing) are simply awesome. Pics in days...
4. Cinevate's Durus FF can be quickly converted on either side of the lens for clockwise, or counter-clockwise operation.

Cheers,
Hi Dennis,

Great to hear those couple of small issues have been addressed. They were only small but that's very good to hear as these are the things that will have big impact on the future of the product...imho.
I have had feedback from a couple of AC's now and they all have commented that it's good. Smooth, strong and easy...all were surprised as they don't have great confidence in single rail mount but were all happy to be surprised and gave it a thumbs up.

I have just used it with a set of Zeiss Standards though and have found that even with the larger gear it still would not fit and i had to flip the gearbox to make it fit which means the obvious back to front focusing which is what it is. But it did fit then which is a good thing, but then of course the mattebox wouldn't. This however is a very common thing with such small lenses as these and is part of the reason why they are not too commonly used anymore because of difficulties attaching accessories.

It would be good to know if you sell extra marking rings though and how much? Maybe even have two with each FF sold.

Rocco Schult

09-19-2009, 05:19 AM

You're a bad ham rigger, Brigham Edgar. Great site. But I still haven't figured out your first name yet.:smilewinkgrin:

Brigham Edgar

10-03-2009, 04:31 PM

I'm slowly finding lenses and setups that the Durus is suffering from. The main issue is no reverse function. You can flip the FF but everything is then backwards and focus pullers don't like this, at all. In fact the last job the AC took the unit off as it was so fustrating and drove the lens manually. He gave the unit a thumbs up apart from this.

The Durus does work beautifully but has limitations due to this one factor. Would it be possible to design an additional accessory that would add another gear on the other side of the gearbox so there would not be the need to flip the gearbox?

Brandon Fraley

10-03-2009, 09:16 PM

Brigham Edgar

10-04-2009, 06:49 AM

i was under the impression that it DID have this "reverse" gear accessory. Was I wrong?

There is no reverse gear. You take the gearbox out and flip it over to 'reverse'. Problem (only sometimes) is that the gear is on the side of the gearbox so then it can end up not fitting to certain lenses. So far i have come across Zeiss standards and the ANG 25-250 zoom it doesn't fit on (if the AC is on the opposite side to the cam op). But i am certain i am going to find more lenses where this is the case.:undecided: