Will RED have a spot meter?

[JohnF]

Will RED have a spot meter?

Simple question.

An in-camera 1-3% circular spot would be nice!

JohnF

[combatentropy]

I believe that the histogram is the new way of working.

[JohnF]

Histograms are good, very useful but I would like to have a reading of some sort that would indicate how my subject is exposed whilst shooting (or rather getting ready to shoot). A simple in camera reading would be nice. Plus it would help shooting in fast changing situations whilst keeping the viewfinder clean for framing (as I imagine an evf display histogram would be quite large in frame).

I know a histogram is effectively a spot reading of every pixel but in some lighting situations the graph might not be a clear as a single spot reading.


JohnF

[Terry_Lasater]

Metering allows you to achieve certain ratios between lights (when actually positioning the fixtures) more effectively than a histogram.

Of course, when lighting for a particular ratio, I use a handheld meter.

[Christian Berg]

I would like to be able to point a square in the picture and get the reading from it. This would be really nice!

[Kevin Halverson]

I am not certain, but I believe that the EVF has a false color function that assigns an exposure level to a color. This would be great for confirming key/fill ratios without having to re-frame the camera to place the "spot" over areas of interest.

[JohnF]

That's nice (like zebra) but I would still want a spotmeter.

JohnF

[James T Mather]

I've never seen a spotmeter on a motion picture camera in my life - I suggest you buy a minolta or sekonic.

[Ramesh Jai]

I've never seen a spotmeter on a motion picture camera in my life - I suggest you buy a minolta or sekonic.
There wasn't a digital camera that could match the dynamic range of film - now there is RED. So even if you haven't seen a spot meter on a motion picture camera before, wouldn't you like one now?

[James T Mather]

not particularly - the zebra would perform that function adequately imvho. film cameras have optical viewfinders hence the requirement for handheld meters,

[JohnF]

The zebra/flase colour pattern will be useful but like a histogram has a way of cluttering the viewfinder. (BTW I am not arguing against these functions, I will be using them)

Yes RED is not a film camera with an optical viewfinder which is why we now have a chance to spot meter the image TTL which I think would be a fantastic improvement. This could make shooting just that little bit simpler (for some shoots) whilst allowing the photographer to concentrate on the frame.



JohnF

[James T Mather]

How would you propose to use it? It sounds superfluous to me. the zebra performs the same function as a meter but in an electronic sense. I feel it would be a redundant feature - and I say this as a Dp who has used a meter for 17 years.

[Michael Morlan]

If you want a spot meter, put one on your hip. What are you going to do when you are lighting ahead of the camera team and don't have a RED One on the pre-light with you? (Sorry, I'm narrative centric here.)

M

[Steve Gibby]

The EVF and LCD will be clean for framing when using the histogram, waveform, and zebra. Same when using the false color meter (EVF only). With all these exposure tools, and the ability to use them in the periphery of the framing, IMO the use of a hand held meter will be a something some users will do because that is what they are used to in their workflow - not something that is necessary for setting exposure on RED One. I very rarely use a hand held meter when using my DSLR cameras, and RED One's technology and workflow (RAW) parallels that of a DSLR. If you feel comfortable with a hand held meter, and already have one, I guess you could go that route. If so, at some point you should try out RED One's electronic exposure tools - that's what they are there for.


RED Team quotes:


“This is the current set up -

EVF Only -

False Color Meter - only in EVF, potential for LCD in future (not a promise)
Overlays the entire image and forces it to monochrome....

EVF and LCD -

Histogram RGB histograms that appear under the main image

Waveform Luma waveform that appears under the main image

Focus “waveform” that appears under the main image

Some or all of these were shown in prototype form at NAB ...”

Stuart
4/26/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2014&page=2




“We do intend to add Zebras to the exposure indication toolset, and when added they will have a wide (and adjustable) range.”

Stuart English
5/6/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2287




“Having said, that I think that you are going to LOVE the false color exposure indication in the EVF ... makes Zebras seem pretty restrictive ...”

Stuart English
(Later in the same thread)




“We should be able to assign a button on the side of the RED-EVF to toggle these displays on / off. Perhaps also to scroll between a few limited choices. Its an area of UI refinement where we can get some valuable feedback from the earliest reservation holders.”

Stuart English
(Later in same thread)




"1) shoot RAW. That makes digital cinema a lot more easy to use.

2) expose correctly. Expose to the right - just like you do with a DSLR.

3) SNR = Dynamic range. You place the white clipping point where you want it, and let the shadows fall where they fall."

Graeme
11/20/06
DVX User RED forum
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=78640


"An excellent tutorial on “exposing to the right”

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/expose-right.shtml

It's talking about DSLR cameras--but the principles are the same."

Graeme Nattress
(same page)

[JohnF]

Gibby thanks very much for that information.

Understanding how RED reports exposure is very important for me plus it's good to know that RED are keeping the frame clean.

So, for now, it looks like no spot meter. Question answered!

I'd like to answer Jtm's and Michael Morlan's questions though.

In my experience there have been many occasions where a TTL spot meter gives one the information one needs to capture a subject correctly. For instance a low contrast or low light situation can confuse average readings or not show clearly on a histogram.
Another example would be a situation where the subject is back-lit or in a place with a very high dynamic range. ie A person inside an unlit room with large windows on a sunny day. A spot reading on the subject would give a reading that is clear and correct for them whilst allowing the camera-op to move their exposure out of the low bits of the shadows (reducing contouring noise thus improving resolution). Yes the histogram will show the whole image reading but it can be difficult to tell exactly where the subject sits on that particular histogram reading.
A TTL spot reading will tell you quickly, important in a fast changing situation, what is going on, exposure wise, with your subject

My thinking on this topic is mainly for non-narrative (docs, ENG) where sometimes, because one doesn't always know where and how the action will take place one does have to use surprising exposure settings, where even having an enormous dynamic range will not help, in order to capture the action.

JohnF

[Júlio Taubkin]

When I first got my hands on a DVX-100, I was absolutely amazed with it's built-in spot meter. I know many come from a film background and carry their spotmeters on their hips, or that some others are used to old video metering tools like the zebra. All of them are incredibly useful. But don't be fooled. A built in spotmeter is an awesome tool to have, and the DVX's marker even though it isn't as good as a separate meter, has saved me more than once.

[Michael Morlan]

JohnF,

You are absolutely right. That's why the meter on my hip is a Sekonic L-558Cine incident/spot meter. :w00t:

I typically start with the incident flat disc to get a good key at the talent position, then start filling, backlighting, set lighting, etc. by eye, then confirm relative exposures and dynamic range with the spot to fine tune. Finally, I may confirm with the camera itself to assure there is no detail lost in the highlights/shadows (if that is my creative intent) but by the time I'm looking through the viewfinder, everything is already done anyway. :sarcasm:

M

[chuck colburn]

Will RED have a spot meter?

Simple question.

An in-camera 1-3% circular spot would be nice!

JohnF

You are kidding aren't you?

[JohnF]

Michael,
I appreciate your points regarding narrative/drama shooting set-ups but I'm really thinking that this function could come into it's own with non-narrative shooting. Though it could help in some drama shooting scenarios.


You are kidding aren't you?

Nope!
As already mentioned I strongly believe that an in camera TTL spot meter would be nice and another first for RED. Without knowing to much about the innards of RED I would have thought that it would be a, (hopefully) relatively simple, matter of programming it as an option to the normal metering modes - to just use the centre 1-3% of the frame whilst telling the UI to display that info.

That said what appears simple to someone thousands of miles away from RED HQ might not be so to someone sitting in front of thousands of lines of code swearing at my above statement. ;)

But yes I would like a spot meter!

Oh, just had a thought! The spot meter circle could be where the focus waveform reading could be measured from also.
Aim at subject (ie eyes), get focus and exposure reading, then frame up! that'll take seconds.

This would really help 4K non-narrative shooters get the shot. (though this might well have been thought of already)

JohnF

[JohnF]

The spot meter circle could be where the focus waveform reading could be measured from.

Aim at subject (ie eyes), get focus and exposure reading, then frame up! that'll take seconds.

This would really help 4K non-narrative shooters get the shot. (though this might well have been thought of already)

JohnF

Maybe this should now head over to the ENG/EFP threads.

What do people think of the above?

Any others out there who might find a combined exposure and focus reading spot useful?

Or any thoughts on a better way?

JohnF

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Why turn the camera. Have a hotkey on the camera to overlay the exposure. I can then get a 'spot' reading from the entire frame at once. Set the "magic focus assist" to a second hotkey.

That way I dont' have to break my nice framing.

[I Bloom]

Maybe this should now head over to the ENG/EFP threads.

What do people think of the above?

Any others out there who might find a combined exposure and focus reading spot useful?

Or any thoughts on a better way?

JohnF

Hey JohnF,

I can see why you would want that, and I have often used the marker on an HVX200 to grab some quick readings off of closeups. Its a little easier than doing the conversion from my spot meter.

That being said I would suggest reading, not the histogram but, the luminance waveform. Between that, and the exposure overlays you should really be able to see the whole picture of exposure for the image while you are operating and know exactly what part of the image is being exposed to what level. With a little practice I think you'll be able to take these readings anywhere in the frame without reframing.

Either way, I hope they give you a spot meter, if its simple enough to include they do proove handy in a pinch, and as a little sanity check, even on a prelit dramatic set.

IBloom

[I Bloom]

If you want a spot meter, put one on your hip. What are you going to do when you are lighting ahead of the camera team and don't have a RED One on the pre-light with you? (Sorry, I'm narrative centric here.)

M

Granted my meter is really old. But the problem I have with using a spot meter, on a video set is that video is a linear signal that doesn't behave so nicely in the highlights. So especially if you are pushing things close to the limits of the dynamic range, zebras and etc are just much better at telling you how much detail you still have. In bright high contrast sunlight or when shooting into practicals or untreated windows, I think this becomes extremely important. The spot meter is a blunt instrument by comparison.

So IMHO we are reaching a point when the film centric spot meter is actually becoming a less effective tool on set. I can look into an optical viewfinder and in combination with a few readings get a very good sense of how the exposed film will turn out. With an EVF its a whole different world.

I've been seeing pro photographers relying heavily on histograms. I'm expecting to see some similar changes with cinematographers as we shift completely to the digital age.

IBloom