[req] RED Sesitometric Curve

[Paramvir Singh]

hello all Red Folks. Sounds like an exciting camera. pardon me if I have missed, but it would be nice to see a sensitometric curve drawn out for Red. I have always liked to see one for my negative, which Kodak publishes. Since there are little external factors like Lap Processing etc, I guess this one would be more or less standard?

[Jannard]

It is not likely that anything will be published before the camera is done and ready for production.

Jim

[Evin Grant]

Well, it's a digital sensor that is recording 12bit RAW data so there really isn't a sensitometric curve, it's linear from the noise floor up till clip which is somewhere near the 12 stops of the twelve bits. Peg ISO 250-320 at 50% (18% middle grey Zone V whatever) and that's it. It looks like this...
http://www.reduser.net/evin/curves.gif
But of course this is just what I've gatherd from the teams postings on the board.
Graeme?

[Alexander Black]

That the sensor is more or less sensitive to different wavelength ranges, but I would think that would be compensated for before the signal is even encoded.

But I'm also talking out of my (a**) and could be completely wrong. Not nearly so important as for film.

_a

[Jannard]

Some people are going to analyze the shit out of the RED ONE and some are just going to shoot some great stuff.

Jim

[Emanuel A.]

L O L

[Darren Orange]

Ain't that the truth...Well said Jim


-Doc

[Rocket]

I wanna shoot!

[Michael Mann]

I want to shoot and analyze. No offense.

[Ken Corben]

Some people are going to analyze the shit out of the RED ONE and some are just going to shoot some great stuff.

Jim

LMAO, ain't that the truth. You'll find me in the field shooting great stuff and reading the bench worm reports with a knowing grin...

[Gavin Greenwalt]

The curve *should* be linear by the time it ever gets recorded. There is no reason it should be anything except a straight line if the ADC has been tuned properly.

[Babu Kantamneni]

Some people are going to analyze the shit out of the RED ONE and some are just going to shoot some great stuff.

Jim
Some days you are very kind and jovial.Somedays you shout back.
Are you sleeping enough?
Take a day off ?
See a doctor?
babu md

[GlennChan]

The slope is non-linear on the bottom/dark end due to noise. (This is what Graeme told me.)

Take a look at the following chart:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=81188

The camera has changed since then... presumably there is lower noise now so the chart is outdated? And also I think Redcine will do some image processing that will affect/correct the image.

[Patrick Tresch]

I think this is the most interesting question to a company wich business is based on a so called revolutionnary chip and answer this question should be the heart of their communication. How to bring an image of most quality to the screen without thinking of exposure latitude / color response / low light and high light response /...

It's just un professional, or even childish to say "just let's shoot great picture and fu.. the rest".

An other issue didn't understand is how 1080 is handeld on their CMO.

http://www.reduser.net/evin/Eredformats.jpg

As figured on this frame (I don't know the source) is 1080 just a cut out of the entire 4k CMO. This means that what is left is a tiny CMO and it would be less quality than 3CCD of 2/3 inch!!!

I've shot with CMO for very high speed imaging and saw that when we put some gain in the lowlight zone we saw the CMO structure appear.

I would definitly make some tough testing before buying Red camera, even if as it is advertised it seems very very sexy...

Just to be sure of what you get. No more guessing.

See you.

Pat

[squinonescolon]

Some people are going to analyze the shit out of the RED ONE and some are just going to shoot some great stuff.

Jim
Sensitometry is one of those things that can be very useful when used properly, but like any language in any technical profession, it can eventually be used to keep the uninitiated on the sidelines. The zone system is another one of those inspired ideas that can be turned into a nightmare for novices. If you've ever looked at Phil Davis Beyond the Zone System, you'll see a good idea gone awry.

Digital is the ultimate leveler. Talented novices --that know not one lick of the dark arts-- can take technically perfect photographs from the get go. And since you can edit, and take an inordinate amount of images for very little expense, the quality for the talented goes up exponentially; Not quite the same for motion pictures --since you have to deal with talent that has to eat, and gets cranky-- but quality for the one who has the vision should be self evident.

F-stops, latitude, depth of field, T-stops, etc, yes, are part of the vocabulary. But if you must insist on every technical parameter be revealed and exposed, I'm wondering whether one is spending the time where it counts. How about other technical terms like: writing, story, plot, color, composition, editing. These are the ones I want to concentrate on. It seems to me Jim has provided reasonable means for the others.
My most humble opinion,
Steven

[Häakon]

F-stops, latitude, depth of field, T-stops, etc, yes, are part of the vocabulary. But if you must insist on every technical parameter be revealed and exposed, I'm wondering whether one is spending the time where it counts. How about other technical terms like: writing, story, plot, color, composition, editing.
Hi Steven,

I understand where you are coming from, but realize that RED is (among other things) a digital cinema camera and you are on a forum where interested parties are discussing the merits of said camera. Of course writing, story, plot, and editing are essential for making a good film, but it stands to wager that there are more DPs on a camera forum than screenwriters and editors.

That is absolutely not to say that there aren't screenwriters or editors here, or that DPs don't care about story, or that RED ONE is only a cinema camera. But I don't find it unreasonable that in the context of a forum centered around the pre-release of new tool designed specifically for shooting, there will be more interest in things like DOF, latitude, and T-stops than how to resolve a story arc successfully.

Then again, I do think sometimes we overanalyze things. :)

[squinonescolon]

Hi Steven,


Then again, I do think sometimes we overanalyze things. :)

Yep, my thoughts exactly. Nevertheless, to me all of those terms are meaningless without a story, cinematography forum or not. I work creating images in one of the high-end studios in the industry. To my eye, the concerns whether this camera can create a reasonable image for most requirements are behind me. That said, I still have to have the camera in my little paws before I make a commitment. I can't even buy a t-shirt without first trying it out, sorry Jim. So although the verdict is still out for me whether I buy the camera, my concerns for the technical details are far behind me. But I concede that may not be for everyone.
Best regards,
Steven