720P and 1080P... losers

[Jannard]

I think recording these formats is a waste of time. I'm voting to delete them from the recording options. You can always "downrez" to get these, but shooting these formats seems counter-intuitive and a waste of FPGA space. Remember that shooting 2K REDCODE RAW is only about 7MB/sec. Maybe we should add a You Tube option? :-)

What thinkest thou?

Jim

[Tom Lowe]

Makes sense to me. Downsampled footage will look better anyway.

[Shawn Nelson]

Wait!! Frame rate Jim, frame rate! I am salivating at the prospects of 120fps. Now if you tell me I can shoot to CF or RedDrive 2k @ 120fps I will be overjoyed, but last i checked, 720p was the only means of that. Please don't take 120p from me!

[Emanuel A.]

Slowmotion purposes?

You beat me Shawn! :)

[Kevin Halverson]

With the 2k data rate at only 7MB/s, why bother with HD format support in camera? Save some of them macro cells for something more "useful".

[Jannard]

Wait!! Frame rate Jim, frame rate! I am salivating at the prospects of 120fps. Now if you tell me I can shoot to CF or RedDrive 2k @ 120fps I will be overjoyed, but last i checked, 720p was the only means of that. Please don't take 120p from me!

Not saying we can, but if we could deliver 120fps at 2K, would you change you mind? Just thinking out loud here. Don't write this down in your journals.

Jim

[Jannard]

When we say "things can and will change"... take it to the bank.

I love this company...

Jim

[Shawn Nelson]

Not saying we can, but if we could deliver 120fps at 2K, would you change you mind? Just thinking out loud here. Don't write this down in your journals.

Jim

Oh yes, in a huge way! I really hate the idea of 720p, quite a lot actually, but the idea of 120fps is beyond tempting. To me, Red 2k shooting Redcode at 120fps would be HUGE! I am an action-minded director, and that would be the cherry.

[Emanuel A.]

Well, this would be a genre dollar ---> euro exchange...


When we say "things can and will change"... take it to the bank.

I love this company...

Jim

[M. Bergeron]

120 fps 2k REDCODE RAW support would certainly do it for me... And I wouldn't need RGB for sure!

[luis bustamante]

we agree entirely, if you could deliver 2k @ 120 fps in redcode we wouldn't miss 1080p or 720p.

Definitely.

[Emmanuel Decarpentrie]

I really hate the idea of 720p, quite a lot actually, but the idea of 120fps is beyond tempting.

Same here! I really need 120fps, no matter the resolution. Of course, the higher the resolution, the better... 120fps at 2k would be awesome!

[Darren Orange]

The Red team can do anything...its just a mater of time.

That being said, is it really just a mater of write speed? If thats the case for 2K at 120FPS, what is the case with 4K at 120FPS. Can the encoder not handle that amount of data (at 4K at 120fps) that fast or is just a mater of writing the data that fast?


-Doc

[Stephen Webb]

The only reason I can see 1080 & 720 being of use is for a live feed. So long as the HD-SDI taps remain, I can see no reason that these need to be recording formats.

And 120fps 2K to CF cards would rock!

[Emanuel A.]

OK consensus. It's already written on our journals. When shall it be on yours Jim?

RED ONE production on delivery? As firmware upgrade?

[Emanuel A.]

I love this community... And this company's customers.

[Jannard]

STOP. Engineers have just said that 2K at 96fps for now is all we can talk about as a possible option. See, things can change in a minute.

Not saying we will do this, just looking for opinions.

Jim

[JD Holloway]

I'M TOTALLY ON BOARD!
120 FPS 2K?

SALIVATING.

Ditch the others.:gun:

[JD Holloway]

Crap seconds too slow.

Liquid nitrogen chip cooling/clocking?
ROTFL:devil:

[Charles Perkins]

Not saying we can, but if we could deliver 120fps at 2K, would you change you mind? Just thinking out loud here. Don't write this down in your journals.

Jim

the biggest reason for me to buy this camera is its high frame rate at 720p if you can get 120fps at 2k i'll be amazed, but untill then please, please do not get rid of it.

[Jannard]

It was a little quiet tonight.... :-)

Jim

[Emanuel A.]

:whistling:


STOP. Engineers have just said that 2K at 96fps for now is all we can talk about as a possible option. See, things can change in a minute.

Not saying we will do this, just looking for opinions.

Jim:)

[JD Holloway]

Jim are we still against the processor wall again here?

If so it would appear that its only a matter of time before it's (easily?) upgradeable (abeit heat issues with more powerfull chips).

[Tonaci Tran]

STOP. Engineers have just said that 2K at 96fps for now is all we can talk about as a possible option. See, things can change in a minute.

Not saying we will do this, just looking for opinions.

Jim

2k 96fps would be incredible... if this is the case..then i wouldn't miss 1080p or 720p. I think we all agree the only point of the lower formats was the higher fps. 4k 60fps redcode would be icing on the cake..

what do your engineers say about 4k at higher fps?

[Jannard]

Jim are we still against the processor wall again here?

If so it would appear that its only a matter of time before it's (easily?) upgradeable (abeit heat issues with more powerfull chips).

We have room for what we advertised... I'm just wondering if all these options are really necessary. We can't ever think of why we would shoot 2K (except for high frame rates), let alone shoot 720P or 1080P (ugh!). If we wouldn't ever shoot that, we are wondering why anyone would. We can certainly give our customers these options. Just seems dumb to me... at least tonight.

Jim

[Arnaud Paris]

Allright guys, the 120fps option is almost feature number one that pushed me into going with the Red. So let's make it simple:
I could actually dance naked on a French soccer stadium during a game in order to have the 120fps 2K be part of the production release.

Seriously Jim, keep in mind that the high fps capability is the main reason why people are still mostly shooting film on high end music videos and commercials.

So if you don't get this 120fps feature going (even at 720p) you'll be seriously damaging our red rental business potential as we know a lot of this market is likely to shift to the Red IF it has the 120fps.

Thanks for asking our opinion on this;

Arnaud (getting tickets for the next French soccer game)

[Emanuel A.]

But 2K 96fps is already a bit of achievement stuff ;-)


2k 96fps would be incredible... if this is the case..then i wouldn't miss 1080p or 720p. I think we all agree the only point of the lower formats was the higher fps. 4k 60fps redcode would be icing on the cake..

what do your engineers say about 4k at higher fps?

[Jannard]

4k at 60 fps is in the spec... just not at 1st release.

Jim

[JD Holloway]

That being said 96 is pretty good for 2k. There is software that can generate interframes decently at 2k (I'm no editor). 2:1 would give a pretty good 192 frames interpolated. I know a group doing 6:1 and higher for post (can't imagine it looks that great)

[Greg Voevodsky]

Wow... again... how am I gonna sleep tonight?!

[Emanuel A.]

4k at 60 fps is in the spec... just not at 1st release.

Jim2K 96fps at 1st release?

[Jannard]

If you had the choice of 720P at 120fps or 2K at 96fps, which would you shoot? This isn't a trick question... :-)

Remember than 2k is 2.6 times more resolution than 720P!

Jim

[Emanuel A.]

Don't worry! :) You already have our answer at your inquiry!! ;-)

[Arnaud Paris]

Well, sorry to say that I like better 120fps at 720p than 96fps at 2K

Arnaud

[Alexander Nikishin]

2K 96fps!

Forget 720 and 1080.

[Miltos Pilalitos]

I agree with the rest on this subject. If 720p is our only way to high frame rates, it has to definitely stay.

If on the other hand 96 fps will be possible on 2K, i couldn't care less about 720p or 1080p.

[Tom Lowe]

4k at 60 fps is in the spec... just not at 1st release.

Jim

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cam Crowley]

Jim
The arm twister for me was the overcrank ability of the RED - especially 120fps. I would really not want to lose this capacity even though it's 720p resolution.
However, I would settle on ditching 720 and 1080 altogether IF we can record at 96fps 2K because I am confident you guys will most likely be able to squeeze out a few more fps at a later stage making 120fps 2K a real possibility in the future.
Honestly though, the 120fps ability was one of the things I was looking forward to most of all.
Thanks

Cam

[Emanuel A.]

If you had the choice of 720P at 120fps or 2K at 96fps, which would you shoot? This isn't a trick question... :-)

Remember than 2k is 2.6 times more resolution than 720P!

Jim

OK If you'd give us 2K 96fps scaled, we'll forget RGB.

EDIT -- BTW, I think RGB has been an older lover after all also because of the 35mm sensor size scaled feature. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Daniel Reichenbach]

Hi Jim, 2K 96 no doupt, or I rent a phantom with 500 picts :) For me it is clear: I will shoot most of the time 4K, why should I light beautifull scenes and climb on the highest mountains to shoot pictures in 720 or 1080? And if I have to to shoot TV-stuff (what I don't like at all), I'll take my Digibeta or something similar.

[JD Holloway]

I dunno.
25% more frames vs. 260% resolution.
I'm thinking interpolated frames might be more efficient even if its cheating.

[Ziggy Uszkurat]

We're gonna shoot a minimum of 2K and standardize our workflow around that. I really cannot see any purpose in 1080p let alone 720p -- it's like using Panavision and cropping the neg right down. If people want to shoot 720p perhaps Red is not the camera for them. I believe the Red team should focus on delivering for the needs of professional film makers and strip out stuff that is irrelevant. Maybe Mini Red Two can be the super DV camera a very vocal section of these boards seem to asking for, but please, don't compromise an excellent tool to pander for things most of us don't want and don't need... just my 2c worth - it's not meant to cause offence

Best Wishes
Ziggx

[Shawn Nelson]

2k @ 96fps!

Just please keep pushing hard for higher fps. I am looking forward to Red 2 not because of resolution (I don't care to EVER have higher than 4k), but I would just die happy to shoot with with like 250fps like on 300. So 120 is a golden step :-)

[Jannard]

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Remember that the only way to 4K at 60fps is RAW (for now). 2K at 96fps "might" be recordable to CF. I'm just testing the waters to see how much effort we need to put towrds this.

Jim

[Jannard]

2k @ 96fps!

Just please keep pushing hard for higher fps. I am looking forward to Red 2 not because of resolution (I don't care to EVER have higher than 4k), but I would just die happy to shoot with with like 250fps like on 300. So 120 is a golden step :-)

I'm not sure what a 300 is... how much is it?

This turned out to be a fun night...

Jim

[Arnaud Paris]

Don't want to be a downer here, but a lot of people using the Red, including my clients in France, won't really care about HD as final delivery at first. They will actually ask for SD delivery and only care about the fps and the lattitude on which the Red clearly has a huge advantage IF it stays with 120fps.

[Emanuel A.]

Remember that the only way to 4K at 60fps is RAW (for now). 2K at 96fps "might" be recordable to CF. I'm just testing the waters to see how much effort we need to put towrds this.

JimWhy not 2K 96fps scaled?

[Ziggy Uszkurat]

High speeds... in 30 years of film-making I've needed to over crank on a handful of occasions - if I want 250fps I would hire in a special camera built to do that. Common sense suggests that the vast majority will shoot at normal speeds for most of their working lives. The exceptions might be those shooting wild life films or the odd time when slo mo is needed.

Ziggx

[Jannard]

Don't want to be a downer here, but a lot of people using the Red, including my clients in France, won't really care about HD as final delivery at first. They will actually ask for SD delivery and only care about the fps and the lattitude on which the Red clearly has a huge advantage IF it stays with 120fps.

Our latitude is what it is... if you could shoot 2k @ 96fps you can downrez to either 1080P or 720P. This is a discussion. Nothing is locked down. I'm open to opinions.

Jim

[Emanuel A.]

Jim, again...scaled? ;-)

EDIT -- I'm sorry but I made a promise to myself that I won't shoot anymore unless from the 35mm glass... :)

[Eric MacIver]

I'm not sure what a 300 is... how much is it?

This turned out to be a fun night...

Jim

I think he means the film - "300".

Anyway, personally, I'd be hard-pressed to choose. Though it'd be rare for me to want to shoot 720p anyway. That won't intercut well with all the 4k footage I'd be shooting. 2k might do it though...

So, only because of that would I choose the 2k @ 96fps option. After all, if you REALLY need 120fps - get the optical out and a refrigerator.

[Kurt Augustyns]

I cannot image someone being angry with '120 fps at 720p' being included as an option. If you don't use it by choice that's fine. If you can't use it, because the option is excluded, that's a real bummer.

I don't like creating in-between frames. The more I could fine tune frame rates during recording, the better. I would sometimes gladly trade screen resolution for motion resolution.

[JD Holloway]

How am I supposed to sleep now... 2:40 am

[Stephen Webb]

High speeds... in 30 years of film-making I've needed to over crank on a handful of occasions - if I want 250fps I would hire in a special camera built to do that. Common sense suggests that the vast majority will shoot at normal speeds for most of their working lives. The exceptions might be those shooting wild life films or the odd time when slo mo is needed.

We do it all the time, though rarely over 100fps.

Jim, "a 300" is a little film that came out a while ago. Made great use of ramping up to 250fps.

[Tom Lowe]

Jim, 4K @ 60fps recording onboard is the brass ring!

[Jannard]

120fps is 5 times cranked, 96fps is 4 times cranked. 2K is 2.6 times the resolution of 720P. The math seems to support 2K @ 96fps. Just sayin'...

Jim

[Keith Nealy]

I can just hear Stuart in the background yelling "120FPS!!! what is he nuts... We'll be lucky if we can crank out 96!! YOU'RE DRIVING ME CRAZY!!!

JIM: " That sounds like a personal problem Stuart - KEEP CRANKING"

STUART: Arrghrrrghaaaa

CUT TO:
I think it's obvious that the higher the speed - the happier everyone will be because the camera, as a tool, will be much more effective and competitive.

CUT TO:
Jim, would not having 720p and 1080p affect any of the realtime output options?

DISS TO:...

[Arnaud Paris]

It's a bit funny, I feel like negociating a basket of fruit in a souk.

Here is the thing Jim, I know 96fps is only 1 time faster than 120fps, but it would be like killing a magic number. Most of the slow motion film projects I worked on actually started to look good at 120fps. I guess we poor humans only start to be impressed when things move 5 times slower than reality :-)

Jim, would it be so hard to keep the 120fps 720p option even if you manage to include this extra 96fps 2k option?

Arnaud

[Kip Hewitt]

This sounds great, but I'd just like to know: Will still be able to knock off something quick & dirty and drop it in to Final Cut without waiting for transcoding? And will I be able to edit multiple streams of REDCODE 2K on an old Laptop without trouble?

What if 720 is all the client needs. Do you really want to hang around waiting to hand over the DownRez?

Obviously 2K/120fps is a wildly compelling option, but couldn't we have both?

[Emanuel A.]

120fps is 5 times cranked, 96fps is 4 times cranked. 2K is 2.6 times the resolution of 720P. The math seems to support 2K @ 96fps. Just sayin'...

JimOK If we cannot have 2K scaled, at least 2K 100fps for the PAL guys, can it be?

[Cam Crowley]

High speeds... in 30 years of film-making I've needed to over crank on a handful of occasions - if I want 250fps I would hire in a special camera built to do that. Common sense suggests that the vast majority will shoot at normal speeds for most of their working lives. The exceptions might be those shooting wild life films or the odd time when slo mo is needed.

Ziggx

I agree with Zigg here that most people will record at real time speeds, most of, if not all the time. I however will need higher frame rates for my work.
As I was going to purchase my RED with RAW port for this very reason, would it be a possibility that those cameras fitted with the RAW port have as many overcranking options as possible including 1080 and 720 recording modes so we can do this kind of work with the maximum frame rates still intact?
This is just a suggestion. Can't you tell that I'm trying to hang on to 120fps for dear life!!

Cam

[Tonaci Tran]

I vote to get rid of 720p all together no matter the frame rate.

For the time being, 1080p will be the highest consumer standard for HD distribution (hd-dvd and blu-ray)..so I would shoot the highest frame rate that 1080p will allow for slomo stuff.

Is 120fps 1080p possible to cf?

To reiterate, i definitely think 96fps at 2k is still AMAAAAZING. Great news.

[Justin Anderson]

Also shooting 720p at 120fps allows us to use the 35mm frame whereas 2K would limit us to the 16mm frame.

Frame rate and film plane size are the only reasons I can think of to keep the RGB options.

[Keith Nealy]

i Think 120fps at 1080p would be a great compromise - and kill the 720.

Is that even possible?

Keith

[Casey Green]

Jim, I agree if you are talking about RED ONE only being used as a Cinema Camera... 2K at 96fps.. sweet.

but I must admit being a bit surprised by this question. I think to limit the 1080 and 720 capabilities would be a real bummer for those interested in ENG and EFP applications. As some have mentioned, the quick turn around in many of these environments is a factor. I work in many different environments, and I know I would appreciate more format options than less.

I'd be interested in hearing Gibby's response to this proposal.

[Jannard]

Jim, I agree if you are talking about RED ONE only being used as a Cinema Camera... 2K at 96fps.. sweet.

but I must admit being a bit surprised by this question. I think to limit the 1080 and 720 capabilities would be a real bummer for those interested in ENG and EFP applications. As some have mentioned, the quick turn around in many of these environments is a factor. I work in many different environments, and I know I would appreciate more format options than less.

I'd be interested in hearing Gibby's response to this proposal.

We don't have to change anything... it was just a thought. But we don't have the space to do everything. We can leave the spec as it is OR we can get creative at the last minute. I don't really care either way. I'll shoot 4K at 24fps to CF or either 720P @ 120fps or 2K at 96fps to CF. My personal preference is 2K @ 96fps, but I'm just one customer. If the majority wants 720P @ 120fps... that's what we'll do. We can't do both. In hindsight, we would have put in a bigger FPGA (not available when we started) but then the price of the camera would be $4K more expensive. Choices... choices.

Jim

[Tonaci Tran]

All this 720p talk reminded me of the time at this year's NAB when I walked by the JVC booth hearing them rave about "full hd 720p" technology. Yet here is Jim asking us about whether it is even necessary to include it as a recording option. Good times.

[Tonaci Tran]

IF it is an either or choice..then i would agree with cutting 720p.

[Miltos Pilalitos]

If it's a case of one or the other then we should vote!

I vote for 2K 96fps

[SF Geek]

I'd pay 4k more for higher frame rates or more options. If that's what you were saying Jim.

[Gianny Trutmann]

I prefer 2K at 96fps or higher if possible

[Keith Nealy]

IMHO...2K @ 96fps

For now I'll interpolate to get faster speeds until a future upgrade.

Thanks for making us part of the process.

aloha,

Keith

[John Allardice]

2K @ 96 gets my vote

[Bob Torrance]

I'm not sure what a 300 is... how much is it?

This turned out to be a fun night...

Jim

Yes it did. How about a Red Jet.

bob

[Tonaci Tran]

"For now I'll interpolate to get faster speeds until a future upgrade."
exactly what I was thinking keith. AE will definitely help. I shot this at 24fps and was able to do speed ramping..and it didn't look too shabby.
I can't wait to do 96fps.. =)

http://www.tonaci.com/spinsm.mov

[M. Bergeron]

2K at 96fps

[C.H.Haskell]

Hey Jim

I always thought the RED ONE was truly a cinema camera at heart and would personally vote out the 720 and even the 1080 options if it meant more fps at 2k. There are plenty 1080 cameras on the market to suit the needs of those interested in ENG/EFP applications. RED ONE is a Cinema Camera. ;)

[Arnaud Paris]

Vote for 120fps

[Casey Green]

We don't have to change anything... it was just a thought. But we don't have the space to do everything. We can leave the spec as it is OR we can get creative at the last minute. I don't really care either way. I'll shoot 4K at 24fps to CF or either 720P @ 120fps or 2K at 96fps to CF. My personal preference is 2K @ 96fps, but I'm just one customer. If the majority wants 720P @ 120fps... that's what we'll do. We can't do both. In hindsight, we would have put in a bigger FPGA (not available when we started) but then the price of the camera would be $4K more expensive. Choices... choices.

Jim

I see... always difficult in these types of choices...

Question: Would it be possible to allow a firmware option for the customer to toggle modes? Or does this HAVE to be hardwired?

[Bob Torrance]

"but I must admit being a bit surprised by this question. I think to limit the 1080 and 720 capabilities would be a real bummer for those interested in ENG and EFP applications. "

Could we keep 1080p and 2K 96?

[Jannard]

If we don't get a clear signal... we'll keep it as it is. And I'll do a special build for me. :-)

Jim

[Shawn Nelson]

Why is it one or the other? Why can't you enable both 720p120 and 2k96?

[Miltos Pilalitos]

If we don't get a clear signal... we'll keep it as it is. And I'll do a special build for me. :-)

Jim

It think it's clear enough that most prefer 2k 96fps!

[Poi Boy]

Jim you are a BAD ASS ! I personally will never shoot Red at 720 or 1080 and I think the more you simplify the better, there have too many options. Just look at what the big boys are doing with record and time code.

I vote 100% for 2K @ 96fps !

Please don't delay.. I need my first Red even in it's most basic functions.
Aloha
-A

[Jannard]

Why is it one or the other? Why can't you enable both 720p120 and 2k96?

FPGA space... imagine what we are giving compared to the competition. Think of the box size. Just think about it for a moment. There is a limit to what we can do. I know that seems an impossible concept since we are offering so much, but trust me... there is a limit.

Jim

[Keith Nealy]

Haskell, I appreciate your passion but I think RED will push the bounderies in EFP/ENG as well.

One factor that we have not considered when we talk about eliminating 1080p and 720p is what is the time factor for downrezing from 4K or 2K to those formats.
That may be a consideration for someone who has to deliver in 1080p on a tight turn. If it's a realtime downconvert on transfer then I guess it's not an issue as long as we don't lose those formats for realtime output with HD-SDI.

[Kenn Michael]

Personally, as much as I salivate over being able to shoot 120fps digitally, I would rather do 2K at 96fps and do some software interpolation to get to 120 if I needed it.

I'm going to be doing all my shooting at 4K, so having to blow 720P up to 4K for super slo-motion doesn't seem completely attractive to me.

I think once we all get our hands on 4K as a living breathing way of life, up-rezzing anything is just going to feel dirty... ;-)

[_BK]

Please keep the higher frame rates Jim! It's really too bad that 120@2k isn't going to be possible, but I suppose Ill make due with 120@720p. What about 240@480p?

[Poi Boy]

If you need 720 and 1080 on super tight deadlines then maybe Red is not the best choice.
Aloha
-A

[Bob Torrance]

FPGA space...

Jim

This is tough. it would be nice to have 1080 for docs (discovery, etc.) and 2K 96 for high speed. Not room for that? Sound like a Red OneHS could have some legs.

[Keith Nealy]

It's looking like 2K at 96fps, Jim but maybe you could do a poll and leave it up for a day to get a more accurate vote.

[Jannard]

Please keep the higher frame rates Jim! It's really too bad that 120@2k isn't going to be possible, but I suppose Ill make due with 120@720p. What about 240@480p?

480P? What's that?

Jim

[Jannard]

I'm going to listen to this board for a few days before we do anything. It is a nice thing to mull over.

Jim

[Poi Boy]

I don't understand why you would miss 720 / 1080.(especially with 2K 96fps) You edit 4k raw and output at whatever !! where is the problem ???
Aloha
-A

[_BK]

I really think your customers should get as many shooting options as possible... why limit them? If you say its the "FPGA" thats holding you guys back.. then get a bigger freakin "FPGA"!

[Poi Boy]

Jim can you include VHS please ?
Aloha
-A

[Jannard]

Open 4K or 2K in a FCP timeline and output what ever you want.

Or open in REDCINE and output whatever you want.

Just saying...

Jim

[diskojerk]

no, really, it's not a nice thing to mull over Jim. Anybody who thinks that frame rate over resolution is acceptable is a moron.

[Miltos Pilalitos]

I really think your customers should get as many shooting options as possible... why limit them? If you say its the "FPGA" thats holding you guys back.. then get a bigger freakin "FPGA"!

Who will pay the extra $4k?

[Simon Blackledge]

Whats the time hit addtion with the encode from raw ?

ie.. 2k rcr > 1080p24 (somecodec)

Apart from the encoding time ..whats the hit with scaling the image down? Can you even do that in RedCine?

Only thing is if were doing something that is a bit short on time.. and it's 1080.. and quite a long piece I don't want to sit while it renders something thats giving me an really small downscale that no one will probably notice so I can actually put it on tape.

Fair enough with 720P .. ;)

Thats my only thought...
s

edit.. actually now I've woken up! Most people will be doing loads more to the footage before they lay off so not that big a time hit considering.

[Jannard]

I really think your customers should get as many shooting options as possible... why limit them? If you say its the "FPGA" thats holding you guys back.. then get a bigger freakin "FPGA"!

That is not possible at this point. Take that out of your thinking. Too late.

Jim

[Alexander Black]

If I'm forced to choose, I'd take 2k@96, but will echo other's calls for 2k@ 120 :P I plan to shoot a lot of 2k on this camera.

Also, I would happily pay for 2k@120.

[Casey Green]

FPGA space... imagine what we are giving compared to the competition. Think of the box size. Just think about it for a moment. There is a limit to what we can do. I know that seems an impossible concept since we are offering so much, but trust me... there is a limit.

Jim

Is the FPGA programmable? What about a software app that allow the end user to choose the cameras supported modes, and then upload the firmware for the FPGA? I'm not sure if this is possible, but worth thowing out there...

This way each user can decide which of the modes they would like available...? 2K@96 or 720@120 but not both available onboard at the same time...

[Seth Larney]

I'd prefer 96@2K as well. It's a real tough one as 120fps is going to be so damn useful. But not that useful if we're trying to cut 720p with 4K anyway.. Most of our stuff will be DI'd at 2K, so 96@2K makes alot of sense. 120@1080 would also make alot of sense, but I'm assuming that's out of reach, and makes losing RGB a moot point anyway.

I can see it now :

Director or Producer : How fast can we overcrank ?
Me : 120fps.. but we'll have to blow that up from 720p, so all our overcranked money shots will be soft.. umm

[Poi Boy]

2@k 96fps over 720 @ 120fps is a no brainer.
-A

[Jannard]

When we started, we decided to exclude SD. My big mistake was to include HD as a recording option. We might be stuck with it for now. But the future is Digital Cinema. You can always go down in resolution. Oh, well.

Jim

[diskojerk]

Jim, I love you.

[_BK]

That is not possible at this point. Take that out of your thinking. Too late.

Jim


What about the ability to swap out shooting format profiles through USB or CF?

[diskojerk]

i often swap out the tires on my car for bricks. it works great.

[Seth Larney]

The more I think about this, the more 96@2K makes sense.

Bring it on !

[Jannard]

Good night...

[canred]

Is the FPGA programmable? What about a software app that allow the end user to choose the cameras supported modes, and then upload the firmware for the FPGA? I'm not sure if this is possible, but worth thowing out there...

This way each user can decide which of the modes they would like available...? 2K@96 or 720@120 but not both available onboard at the same time...

FPGA = Field-programmable gate array. Unless they migrate this to a fixed version for the production camera.

Is this the case Jim?

[diskojerk]

im surprised you have to think about it.

[Jesper Holmström]

I would prefer shooting redcode raw all the time...BUT 1080p scaled RGB is the only way of shooting up to 60p onboard with 35mm DOF. If you remove that then a Varicam with a pro-35 would still have an edge (not on quality).
If there is a plan for 4K 60p onboard then I am all in.

Jesper Holmström
Dagsljus Filmequipment

[Mark L. Pederson]

Jim -

If you can deliver 120fps (or even 96fps) in 2K ...

Forget 720 and 1080 recording - can't speak for other REDUSERS - but I will NEVER use it.

And please don't waste time on RGB recording ... defeats the whole power of the camera and workflow. IMHO your time is better spent on other features.

I still need 1080p (or 2K) out of the HD-SDI.

[I Bloom]

Ok so hear I go again, with another unpopular oppinion. If you mean 720p and 1080p scaled from the whole chip then I think we need it. For financial reasons not because I think its cool, its not. 4K RedCode RAW is the only thing thats cool. Especially if we can overcrank it.

But here is the issue. RED is really ideal for a lot of content that isn't talked about on this site to much, but which is quickly becoming very important to this market, and that is heavily compressed web content. RED is actually ideal for this content because, shallow depth of field and essentially zero noise = excellent compression, which means visibly better result for web television, results people will pay for.

These content creators don't want or need 4K. They will pay for 720p. And they won't pay you to downconvert your footage for them after you shoot it. Not having the option to reduce the overall amount of data right in camera while keeping most of the qualities of the image, aside from resolution, is a major problem. Possibly a deal breaker, pushing the camera into the possible liability category rather than the definite asset category. For me at least.

I'm buying RED because I want to use it to shoot movies. And I want to shoot them at the highest image quality possible. But I recognize that there is emotional weight behind that decision, that needs to be tempered with some wisdom. A tool like this is directly connected to my labor and all of my labor is not and will not be shooting movies in 4K at least not during the time I will need my camera to pay for itself. The more options it can give me the better off I will be. The easier I can make post production for my clients with fast turnarounds the more successful all of us will be.

I also don't accept the notion that all of this is possible in post with REDCine, the idea being that you could transfer all of the footage from a project to any format you need. I think that is ignoring the very real labor costs and time drain that this is going to create.

Jim I appreciate the fact that you are a maverick, you hold yourself and your company to the highest standards of quality. You see lower quality images as a waste of time. I see them as only the right tool for the job in many situations.

I guess what it comes down to is do you see RED as sports car or a four wheel drive work pickup. I see it as a pickup: I mostly use it for work but I sometimes take it offroading.

IBloom

P.S. 36fps 4K REDCODE RAW, to me thats an expressive thing that I do on the fly without planning. Anything faster is more of a special effect, something that you could plan for and get the neccessary equipment in advance. 36 RC is my dream spec for RED ONE.

[Priyesh P.]

96fps @ 2K will be great, especially when recordable to CF.
I was quite happy to shoot 50 fps with the 16SR3, 75 fps is the top I could now think of using in most productions, so 96 fps would be a dream in terms of flexibility (and anyway, if I had the possibility to shoot HS at virtually no cost, I'll use higher fps as well...).

So, Kick 720! Give us 2K @ 96 fps!
Please.

[Tim Lüdin]

Please go with 96fps @ 2K. and 1080p with 120 fps.

The other formats don't make much sense any more.
Remember that most TV stations go 1080 now or in the next 1-2 years.

But for filmmakers most DIs are at 2 K. So when we donconvert stuff in FCP to 2K for output, then the few slomo shots are already in the right format and don't hurt the quality to much. Also remember the lenses! If want a wideangle slomo shot you need a very very wiede lens let's say a 12 mm, that the shot still looks wide in 2K. The more we go down, the harder it gets.

So 96fps @ 2K isn't bad for a start. Originaly I thougt 120 fps was the deal.
That was one of the main reasons, why I went with the RED One.

Maybe a future update will enable that option?

Anyway, RED Two will probably be the ultimate Cam with 120 fps in 4 K.

But let's finish this baby first. I can't wait any longer.
It's a fantastic time for filmmakers.

Greetzzzz

Tim

[Emanuel A.]

Please go with 96fps @ 2K. and 1080p with 120 fps.
Would it be possible?

[Darwin]

If we don't get a clear signal... we'll keep it as it is. And I'll do a special build for me. :-)

Jim

Hay Jim,

Can you build me one of them special ones? I vote for the 2k /96!!!!!!
Ditch the 720& 1080 and lets move forward. I want a professional camera...not a spork (half spoon half fork) In this case less is more! Thank god you didn’t say RED was comming with a VHS deck.

[Ken Corben]

Keep 1080 for now - lose 720 and enable 96 fps @ 2K.

What does one do with 720P? Blow it up to 2K or 35mm for theatrical screening? I'll never use it and clients won't ask for it. Nat Geo Channel US accepts 720P for HD broadcast but everyone else is 1080. Since one camera alone will not serve as a production tool that does everything then 96 fps @ 2K is the hands down winner of the available no delay options for REDONE.

Losing the 1080 option for the non-fiction EFP owner/operators in the long run may not be an issue, HOWEVER, clients may need some ramp up time to get their heads around the 4K workflow - simple as we know it is with FCP or Redcode.


I always thought the RED ONE was truly a cinema camera at heart and would personally vote out the 720 and even the 1080 options if it meant more fps at 2k. There are plenty 1080 cameras on the market to suit the needs of those interested in ENG/EFP applications. RED ONE is a Cinema Camera. ;)

Yikes! Good thing your not the VP of marketing for RED. In one paragraph you just eliminated the majority of RED's future customer base. Ya sure, Indies and the Majors will/are embracing REDONE cameras to shoot their features but that is only a fractional part of the RED's market potential.

Wait until Gibby reads your post, man are you going to get schooled. How many "cinema features" are made globally each year? Now, compare that to how many HD broadcast programs are made each year. Discovery Channel US alone makes more HD programs than the world's collective annual feature output.

Let's see my EFP options per your analysis are drop more than $200K to buy a camera system to shoot 1080 to tape with Sony's compression or $30-40K to originate in 4K redcode. Rental rates will be equally as one-sided. Then again maybe you were just kidding:greedy:

[Michael Ragen]

2k at 96fps by far.

ps- i'm worth 10 votes because i'm special.

[Martin Ludwig]

1080p should be stay - I think many B4 Lenses will not cover 2K - and I feel many users will use their B4 lenses.
we do not need 720p - 96fps@1080 would be fine enough !

[Michael Ragen]

Also the best Christmas present ever would be 4k at 36fps. That's not too much to ask, right?

[Anders Holck]

We can leave the spec as it is OR we can get creative at the last minute.

He, he. No one can accuse you of playing it safe :-)

I think it all depends on how optimized the 4k RAW playback codec will be.
If you can make high quality 1080 playback in realtime from 4k RAW and 2k RAW, most of your customers could care less about if it is RAW or RGB, and RGB would be a moot point.

The RGB modes currently promises two important things: Maximum framerate, and instant 1080p delivery.

Maximum framerate is mostly a "feel good" feature. You would only use it in special cases.

RGB recording for me is about being able to persuade more Sony/Panasonic productions into moving over. There is certainly a big market where RAW processing will never click with the producers due to time and budget constraints, they basically trust the photographer to do his thing and then just use the final look that he chose. No funds/time in the budget to have someone use time in Redcine.
But all of this becomes less meaningful if high quality realtime downscaling is possible from the full 35mm sensor in redcode RAW. If not, RGB is still very much needed, although we all love the RAW format better.

If realtime HQ 1080p playback is not possible from a 4k redcode RAW file on a highend system, I'd say: keep 1080p RGB (From 2k and 4k), loose 720p and work on optimizing the RAW options.

[Friedrich Moser]

2k@96, definitely. And if Redcode 4k got faster, I'd be willing to pay that $4k extra for that option extra - it's still a laugh compared to what you pay Sony for any extra on the HDW 750 / 790.

Regards, Friedrich

[Mike Zinner]

One more vote for 2K @ 96 fps.

What would people do with 720p, they would UP-REZ!!!!! That controverts the whole idea of the Red if you ask me. "PIXEL SHIFTING AND UP-REZZING NOT SPOKEN HERE", please stay true to that paradigm.

So please kick 720p and give us the amazing option of 2K @ 96 fps. I mean, just listen to that: 2K @ 96 fps. That's almost as amazing as being able to shoot in 4K.

ENG guys: CPUs are getting so fast and so cheap, downrezzing to 720p will be fast as hell anyway. But there is no way to ever get 2K @ 96 fps in the Red One if Jim doesn't decide to change the spec now.

MAKE THAT 2K @ 96 fps!
Pretty please!

[Corey Culp]

2k@96fps (or beyond) would be my choice.

Man, this place is great! :)

[baro]

If you had the choice of 720P at 120fps or 2K at 96fps, which would you shoot?

Jim, is the live HD-SDI output still there with the 2K at 96fps option? Thanks.

[Carl-August Savgård]

96 fps 2k for me.

[Daniel Reichenbach]

Good night...

Wait... I wote for 2K@96, RED for me it is a 4K/2K cinemaStyle camera, which can downres to every other format we like. Sleep well

[Edmund Boyle]

He, he. No one can accuse you of playing it safe :-)

I think it all depends on how optimized the 4k RAW playback codec will be.
If you can make high quality 1080 playback in realtime from 4k RAW and 2k RAW, most of your customers could care less about if it is RAW or RGB, and RGB would be a moot point.


The RGB modes currently promises two important things: Maximum framerate, and instant 1080p delivery.

If realtime HQ 1080p playback is not possible from a 4k redcode RAW file on a highend system, I'd say: keep 1080p RGB (From 2k and 4k), loose 720p and work on optimizing the RAW options.


The ability to live feed is an important asset at the highest resolution possible, if this can be accomplished without 720p. Thats fine.

The more functional possibilities on RED the better but not at the expense at comprimising its usability to its users whether its ENG, EFP or Digital Cinema Production. There in lies the paradox if one RED user is going to lose functionality over another user because their choice maybe limited.

At the moment everyone is on board with whats avialiable on the first RED production model.

"It's better looking at it than looking for it!":devil:

Jim you must have found a big wooden spoon last night, your really going to stir it up with this one!:biggrin:

[Emanuel A.]

Jim is sleeping now. He gave us his good night. Let him to have his well deserved sleep!

The poll is open. Here:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3452

[Darwin]

Emanuel put up a poll please put in a vote..lets see where we are at!

[Mardi_Gras]

Jim,

Since it's a one-or the-other option, why not give each rez member and/or future customers, the option of enabling one function or the other in their own cameras, like you have with custom made automobiles. In other words, I for one, prefers the 2k @96FPS; this will come enabled as a standard option with my R1. that way, everybody is happy, plus we'll have no one but ourselves to blame when things change later, like you always say "things are bound to change".

BTW, I think you're a real nutter to lay it all out like you did, tonight. One can certainly make a crazed suspense thriller out of tonight's session on these boards, jeez!:)

[C.K.]

2K@96fps
Go for it!!!

[Scott Webster]

I will go with any choice that does not delay delivery past August 30th ;)

[Damien Molineaux]

We have room for what we advertised... I'm just wondering if all these options are really necessary. We can't ever think of why we would shoot 2K (except for high frame rates), let alone shoot 720P or 1080P (ugh!). If we wouldn't ever shoot that, we are wondering why anyone would. We can certainly give our customers these options. Just seems dumb to me... at least tonight.

Jim

About shooting 2k, I think like me, a lot of people are planning to shoot at that res. The reason why I plan on doing that : I have a nice Zeiss S16 zoom and the footage takes up less space. Is that figure you mentioned of 7 MBps for real ? That's awesome, 1/4 the size of 4k ! This is important for documentary work when one is travelling the world and shooting a lot. Also, S16 lenses are smaller so better for shooting handheld and the greater depth of field is welcome for documentary work.

As a side note, remember HD was initally developed for digital cinema, so in a sense it is also digital cinema !

About 720p, I don't believe it's got much of a future. Compared to Pal, it's not much higher res. So over here (on the old continent) everybody is going with 1080. And with chanels broadcasting 1080i and going for 1080p, who's gonna want 720p content a few years from now.

However I think 1080 content has a long life ahead, so I think 1080 recording will be usefull, I'll personall be shooting 2k and outputtng to 1080 from there.

Cheers,
Damien

[Pol Turrents]

i'll go for 720/120p.
Most of the high speed work is for commercials for tv, and since this kind of job requires really high speeds most than high frame sizes, I prefer the higher speed.
In other hand, if you go with the highest frame rate, later, with a retime software you can do much better slow motion (from a 120p you can easily get an interpolated 300p)
remember... digital cinematography is not only film movies... and how many film movies contains slow motion? (ok Michael Bay and John woo doesn't counts!)

[Pol Turrents]

About shooting 2k, I think like me, a lot of people are planning to shoot at that res. The reason why I plan on doing that : I have a nice Zeiss S16 zoom and the footage takes up less space. Is that figure you mentioned of 7 MBps for real ? That's awesome, 1/4 the size of 4k ! This is important for documentary work when one is travelling the world and shooting a lot. Also, S16 lenses are smaller so better for shooting handheld and the greater depth of field is welcome for documentary work.

As a side note, remember HD was initally developed for digital cinema, so in a sense it is also digital cinema !

About 720p, I don't believe it's got much of a future. Compared to Pal, it's not much higher res. So over here (on the old continent) everybody is going with 1080. And with chanels broadcasting 1080i and going for 1080p, who's gonna want 720p content a few years from now.

However I think 1080 content has a long life ahead, so I think 1080 recording will be usefull, I'll personall be shooting 2k and outputtng to 1080 from there.

Cheers,
Damien

You are talking about tv... so probably the standard in europe will be 720p instead of 1080i.
It's not only about resolution, but frame rate. Progressive mode is much better than interlaced, and if you do the math you would see that 1080i is not much better than 720p. This is clearly explained by the BBC and the EBU.

[Brice Ansel]

I don't see the point of having 720p on board.
If it's for the 120p then 2k@96 and after effect are my friends.

[Jan Reiff]

First, hello to jim and all other reds out there. i am new on this, just ordered my red package two weeks before.
this is a very important thread here, so i will try to make it short:
i ordered a 4K camera to have the maximum quality. i don´t like video and even HD does not make me happy. to this time, i shot and shoot everything on 35mm. i would prefer the 2K options very much, i don´t need 720p stuff. 96f/s in 2K is so much better than 120f/s in poor 720p resolution.
i want to continue my work for the big screen with red, so 720p is completely useless for me, and 96f/s are a solid slowmotion indeed. so i hope jim and his team will deliver that camera, they started to develop - not a HD cam, we want and need the best digital cinema tool, and i am sure the best way is to have 4K and 2K options on board.

so my vote is: forget 720p stuff, we want the 96f/s at 2K.

[Curran Giddens]

The reason I ordered my Red with the RAW data port option is because I would never be happy uprezzing 720p RGB @ 120fps to 4k. I want to always shoot RAW for the most flexibility in post. If I could shoot 2k Redcode RAW @ 96fps, I might even consider skipping the RAW data port option and using the $6500 saved towards other Red accessories. I was going to uprez and interpolate the 2k @ 120fps to 4k @ 240-250fps anyway (to look like the movie "300"). It wouldn't be much different to do the same thing starting with 2k @ 96fps.

I vote for 2k @ 96fps! Seems like a no-brainer....

[Jeff Coatney]

I think recording these formats is a waste of time. I'm voting to delete them from the recording options. You can always "downrez" to get these, but shooting these formats seems counter-intuitive and a waste of FPGA space. Remember that shooting 2K REDCODE RAW is only about 7MB/sec. Maybe we should add a You Tube option? :-)

What thinkest thou?

Jim

I agree Jim. While 1080i/p and 720p are the favorite distribution formats du jour, they represent the present state of the art. Your Red camera is the architecture of the future. A future, I might add, that has yet to be written since 4K projector/ display technology is still evolving. A future that you and Red team are writing right now. Why are you even considering backwards compatibility to a format like 720p? Because of the comfort level of the professionals that post on this board? You guys have done an excellent job developing forward. Forget HD. Once people see native 4K in their homes and at the theatre, HD will be the new SD. I give it 10 years.

You have charted a fine course thus far as captain of the Red ship. I see no reason to second-guess your decisions now. As you said, if anyone needs 1080 or 720 they can easily downconvert to them. 1080 and 720 is the neighborhood that Sony and Panasonic inhabit. Don't try to compete directly with them, there's no reason to do that. If anyone thinks that 720p is superior to 2K, then they're not a Red user, regardless of the frame rate issue.

Please don't let the Red engineers waste time trying to integrate 720 and 1080 recording into Red's monumentally robust 4K architecture. It may only delay the camera's delivery schedule. Push the envelope. Make this camera truely future-proof. There are so many frame-rate converion algorithms now in After-Effects and there are more on the way. Software MUST solve the frame-rate issue, because hardware should be tasked with more important duties like capturing the most data/resolution per frame.

Your solution of 96fps @2K would provide the data necessary to convert to many different rates in post. If anyone needs a different solution, they should rent a PhantomHD for those shots.

Will the HDMI out on the Camera still function under the 96fps@2k scenario, or would that feature be disabled on higher frame rate shooting? Could one hook up a deck to the HDMI if a lower-resolution/higher frame rate were required?

[Damien Molineaux]

You are talking about tv... so probably the standard in europe will be 720p instead of 1080i.
It's not only about resolution, but frame rate. Progressive mode is much better than interlaced, and if you do the math you would see that 1080i is not much better than 720p. This is clearly explained by the BBC and the EBU.

Yes, I know progressive is better than interlaced, and as I said, many broadcasters are pushing for 1080p delivery. Also, now that HDready TVs are pretty common, the big selling line is Full HD 1080p.

I don't think the standard here will be 720p, but I may be wrong. I know however there is very little shooting in 720p. As I said the increase in resolution between PAL (576) and 720 is quite minimal, although progressive adds it's load of detail. Everybody here tailkng about HD, is thinking 1080, wether i or p.

We'll see, but I see a short life for 720p material, at least here in Europe. Obviously the gain between NTSC and 720 is much more substancial. As we, in Europe, are late in the HD game, we will jump directly to 1080, i for the time being and maybe p in the near future.

Time will tell, cheers,
Damien

[Arnaud Paris]

I don't think calling "moron" people who care about frame rate over resolution for their current business is the good attitude on this forum.

You gotta understand that for a lot of shops like us in Europe most of our clients don't care of anything above SD and they won't for another two good years. But we do have some significant demand for SD projects that require higher frame rates or that need to be shot in a harsh environment where the 12-stop lattitude is a key element.

So of course we love to think of the Red as a tool to make great 4k programs and convince channels to broadcast 4k or even 2k, but trust me they won't.

Now as for the true filmmaking aspect of the Red, believe me we'll have tons of projects to shoot in 4k; and we'll make them, but these don't pay the bills and they certainly don't pay for the Red Ones!!!

So excuse us for being pragmatic but for some people here, money and clients is a concern and keeping that 120fps option that we partly based our purchase on is crucial.

Now if Jim wants to change that one month before final production we won't bash him and we'll surely keep our feet in the line. But it does have some consequences on our businesses.

We wish we could live of revolutionary filmmaking, but we don't...

Arnaud, one of the "morons" wishing to keep the 120 fps feature (no matter what kind of resolution, even if it was simple SD)

[Jan Reiff]

i think those who want a 720p with higher framerates will get this on one of the next panasonic models for sure. but red shouldn´t touch this field, i mean, we have a big block car here and talk about the 1st gear.
there are so many other cams for the 720p market.
i repeat: in my opinion 96fps are very solid for the most of stuff you need, even commercials.

[Jonas Nyström]

I will do all my projects in 4K or 2K, and then deliver the most in HD (after intermediate). So in IMHO you may remove the 720 and 1080 - BUT - keep the 120fps option somewhere. Most of my work is comercial and a nice slow-mo here and there often make it (for me anyway).

[Gregory Karydis]

Hey Jim, I'm with you on the 2K@96fps
but if the people want then why not give it to them?
Can't you play on the "modularity" concept of the camera and offer a different FPGA upon request?
Sounds to me like the FPGA that includes the signal processors for HD is already in some way or other built.
While you and many other customers like myself would rather go for the 2K@96fps so it sounds like you will make one fpga with these features to cater your needs. so why not offer that as an upgrade opton?
Swap one fpga for the other upon request.

But here is my real question;
By excluding HD, aren't you saving space? Wouldn't that offer more room for features in the future or larger cooling (yeah, I have no idea how the internals are designed so I could be waaay off the mark)
I am going to take a leap here and suppose you will be saving about 1/20th of a cubic inch of physical space by removing the HD section so that could be used for something else :)

Also, according to this diagram wouldn't excluding HD also exclude the B4 lens system?

[Kurt Augustyns]

Arnaud,

I think you've made some valid points. I would like to add that Red will succeed eitherway but I believe the global impact of Red will be much broader -and beneficial for all of you- if they don't just throw away native 1080p and people depending on quick turnaround. And that's coming from someone who isn't on the broadcasting side.

Sorry Jim, I don't think recording 1080p is a waste of time.

[Jeff Coatney]

The development time, engineering talent and cost of developing this camera seems to some degree wasted if the marketplace, which has always accomodated higher resolutions (if slowly), requires the hardware to capture an inferior image.
I find it difficult to understand that somehow 720p, by the sole virtue of it's precarious toe-hold in SOME distribution schemes, should take valuable (priceless and precious) engineering time away from 2K implementation. If your business model cannot absorb the time required to output a 720p deliverable, then perhaps this camera is not for you.
Have we not all lived through the age of the Compact Disc? The format that just 20 years ago destroyed the Cassette and the LP Record, is now threatened by the mp3 or it's latest downloadable cousin.
Although this camera is affordable, it's still quite a grip of money to acquire. Adopting a 2K workflow from the outset will create a buffer against obsolescence for your CONTENT. Do any of us still believe that HD is the format for the next fifty years? C'mon. The SECOND that HD (1080 or 720) reaches market saturation (6 to 7 years off) the manufacturers will create an even better home entertainment experience just to stay afloat.
Anyone that chooses 720p is obviously not a student of history and I doubt has plans to be in business as a serious content provider in ten years. You heard me right, you choose 720p - you choose extinction. Maybe not in five years, but certainly in ten.
The human race has yet to create an algorithm that can create pixels for a digital image that weren't there when the image was captured. You can go down in resolution-- but you can't go up.

[G.A. Kokes]

Our company will be shooting 4k and down converting in RC for client's needs. 2k will be used for higher frame rates. 1080 and 720 are not in our cards anymore. Please make room for the future.

G

[baro]

What I don't understand is why you need more computing power for 2K @ 120fps than for 4K @ 30 fps. It is the same number of pixels to process in one second.

[HD Hildebrand]

So what if you lose 720? Could you then get both 120 out of 1080 and 96 out of 2K?

[Adam Jeal]

There are plenty 1080 cameras on the market to suit the needs of those interested in ENG/EFP applications. RED ONE is a Cinema Camera. ;)

I think that Gibby will disagree strongly with this statement.

Oh, and Jim - 2K at 96fps would rock! (shows which camp i'm in!). I have a question, Does the Red One make nice toast as well? :biggrin: (aside from making 'toast' of the competition!) :ninja:

[Arnaud Paris]

i think those who want a 720p with higher framerates will get this on one of the next panasonic models for sure. but red shouldn´t touch this field, i mean, we have a big block car here and talk about the 1st gear.
there are so many other cams for the 720p market.
i repeat: in my opinion 96fps are very solid for the most of stuff you need, even commercials.

So you suggest we buy a Red One and the coming Panasonic...
I think this thread is seriously changing the idea of modularity that people had about the Red at the beginings.

[Øystein Mamen, FNF]

Quote:
"If realtime HQ 1080p playback is not possible from a 4k redcode RAW file on a highend system, I'd say: keep 1080p RGB (From 2k and 4k), loose 720p and work on optimizing the RAW options." - A. Holck

I definitely agree on that. I would need 2k RAW up to 96 fps a lot more often than 120fps/720p. Keeping 1080 RGB still gives a quick deliverable format for everything non-cinema.

[Christian Berg]

i go with the 2k@96fps! 1080p would be nice when you do TV stuff but if it doesn´t fit it has to go i favour of the 2k.
/Christian

[Pol Turrents]

i repeat: in my opinion 96fps are very solid for the most of stuff you need, even commercials.

96fps is for shooting people in slow motion, but if I want to shoot liquids, food, or any other product shoot, I need, at least 200fps.

Everybody is talking about making movies, but, we have to be realistic. How many movies are going to be shoot, and how many commercials or products for tv?

I use to shoot also with the weisscam and the phantom HD cameras, and since this cameras allow to shoot high frame rates at lower resolutions, I know lots of products that have been shoot at pal resolution and almost 2000fps with this cameras.

in resolution terms, you don't need to kill flies with a missile (it's a spanish phrase!) when shooting for tv. Even if you shoot for HDTV.

(ironic mode on) BTW... what a terrible thing the 720p! BBC's Planet earth looks AWFUL! (/ironic mode off)

[Keith Brust]

Jim, Although I plan on shooting 4k for my own stuff, I shoot documentary TV primarily. I have lots of s16 lenses I plan on using. One of my main specialty lenses is one of a kind and will not cover on s35. Also, I don't own any of the footage I shoot for Nat Geo, BBC, etc. Why would I want to give them anything better than what they need? I would rather have them pay me more to reshoot animals in 4k years from now. Shooting in remote locations for extended periods of time may cause memory headaches also. Please, please, please don't give up the other formats. Thanks for the amazing work you guys are doing.

Keith

[Michael Lindsay]

96fps at 2k is more desirable.... (my opinion for my 2 camera's on order)

especially if you can record at higher frame rates at 4k (with red ram rather than a fridge).... even if it is not 60fps.. 40fps would be a great start..

please drop all non-raw recording and re-direct all development resources to higher frame rates at 2k and 4k and the other features.. (like 235 or 2 by 1 with full chip width)

As for the people who need fast turn around? I would go straight to tape from camera? Or perhaps Red can offer a RT GPU driven SD (and maybe HD) output from redcine with appropriate hardware.. if RT HD is possible by mid 2008s with the fastest hardware you can buy this would annul the fast turn around argument..

Michael Lindsay

[Antoine Baumann]

Well that's a hard choice!!!

Some argument to keep the RGB option and therefore 120fps recording


I would prefer shooting redcode raw all the time...BUT 1080p scaled RGB is the only way of shooting up to 60p onboard with 35mm DOF.


Also shooting 720p at 120fps allows us to use the 35mm frame whereas 2K would limit us to the 16mm frame. Frame rate and film plane size are the only reasons I can think of to keep the RGB options.

What really decide me to reserve the camera, except the fantastic spirit of the RED team, it is the MODULARITY. Ok I have understood, it is not possible to have both 720p@120fps and 2K@96fps

BUT IF I HAVE TO CHOOSE, THEN I WILL GO FOR 2K @ 96FPS.

antoine.

[Sanjin Jukic]

I am always for the best options and the experts will find it for sure.

[Joe Walker]

96fps at 2k is fine for the type of work I do. But Jim, I have to ask you, could you possibly, down the line of course, manufacture a high-speed RED camera.........something along the lines of a 4.5k Photosonics? And get the speeds up to.........dare I ask...........900fps?!:devil:

[Martin Jäger]

..just 4 more frames for the tv-folks in europe :)

otherwise: 96 a sec would be amazing in 2k anyways.

thanks!

martin

[Jay A. Kelley]

Guys come on. The camera needs to be backwards compatible, and delivery needs to be fast. I have a LOT of clients still shooting SD.

Downrezzing is nice, but it takes time, and that costs money. We need to be able to deliver footage quickly and out of the gate in a lot of different jobs.

Jim, your spending too much time around rich hollywood film makers! :)
A lot of your customers will be using RED as it was designed.. A swiss army knife, designed to serve many needs all at once.

Now that said, I have a confession to make... It's embarrassing: I still don't completely get the whole RGB thing and how it works anyway. I understand REDCode. I have been writing this post on the assumption that RGB is a sort of quicktime format that would allow me to shoot straign to 720 or 1080p. Hope I'm right.

If 2k 96fps could be a software OPTION that could be purchased for those that want it, I think that would be the way to go. I want 720 and 1080... For now... But I HOPE that will change in a year or so

Jay

[Júlio Taubkin]

Hey Jay, good points. But the more I face the facts, the more I can't get my head around it. It's a digital cinema camera. It's workflow is very much like film. You shoot raw, and you go to a telecine and you output a color corrected downrez. I mean, even if you're shooting TV with your RED, you should be going to a film-like workflow (and there's a lot of people that shoot film today and output to SD, just like your clients who like material in SD).

My vote ultimately would be for 96fps in 2K, although I certainly wouldn't call 720p and 1080p losers. Remember it's television and what most people will have at home for a long time.

Although 1080p and 720p will be harder to get, it will still be possible to get them, while with 2K 96fps, either you have it or you don't. So that option actually makes the camera MORE versatile, and not less.

[Nils Ruinet]

Well, if you have to choose, 2K@96 sounds fine to me...

But only if :
a) processing times in Redcine for a 1080P downconversion are somewhere near realtime
b) we still have the HD-SDI 1080P outputs.

If not, you have to keep at least the 1080P option. (I don't mind about the 720P)
Don't forget a lot of us will also be doing work for TV, so 1080 will often be our final delivery format. So being able to convert it quickly is an important point.

Just to be sure,the HD-SDI 1080 output would stay even if you removed the 1080/720 recording options, right ?

I think the best option, as suggested by others before, would be to give the choice to people when they buy the camera to have either 1080/720P version or the 2K@96 version.

Or even better : FPGA stands for "Field-programmable gate array", so wouldn't it be possible to just reprogram it in the field with the options you need ? You couldn't have both at the same time, but you could chose... Don't know if this is possible, but that's what I understand from its description...
I thought all the beauty about Red was that all the software parts were easily updatable in the field with just an SD-card ? Or doesn't that apply to the FPGA ?



We have room for what we advertised... I'm just wondering if all these options are really necessary. We can't ever think of why we would shoot 2K (except for high frame rates), let alone shoot 720P or 1080P (ugh!). If we wouldn't ever shoot that, we are wondering why anyone would. We can certainly give our customers these options. Just seems dumb to me... at least tonight.

Jim

I can think of a least 4 good reasons to shoot 2K RAW in some situations :
- You just said 2K RAW will only be about 7 MB/s, which can be great if you have to shoot a lot of footage, like on documentary films, and don't have a large budget / crew... That's 4 times less than 4K RAW !!! Dude, that's about 10 hours of 2K RAW footage on a RedDrive ! :w00t:
- Windowed sensor in 2K means a 100mm Lens in 4K "becomes" like a 200mm when cropped to 2K, so it acts like a doubler. Interesting if you need long lenses...
- Faster frame rates, as you said.
- Being able to use 16mm lenses, which also could be interesting if you're trying to stay light, as 16mm zooms aren't as heavy as 35mm zooms...

[Joe Aurili]

In isolation I would choose 96@2K over 120@720, but if the change also eliminates onboard 60P then I might have to flip my position.

[hsr]

i vote for 1020p-120fps ;)hahahaaa

[Nils Ruinet]

...and yes, 2K@100fps would be nice for us PAL people, I agree.
I'm sure you must be able to somehow squeeze in these 4 little frames...

[Jeremy Hughes]

1080p120 was originally an option. 1080p is still a growing format. 1080i and 720p are still growing but are slowing down. Who needs them when you got 1080p? And 480p and 480i, well, their declining in popularity I guess.]

I think you can get rid of 720p but I think you should reanable the 1080p120 feature.

I remember when 1K, 1080i and 2K RGB were in the list of recordables...

[Sean]

Not saying we can, but if we could deliver 120fps at 2K, would you change you mind? Just thinking out loud here. Don't write this down in your journals.

Jim

Yes!!! If that's the case, can the 720/1080.

And maybe it gets to be like a menu at a restaurant...I start worrying about what I'm gonna get when there's 30 dishes on the menu. But I think a great chef can really deliver something special when there's only a few to choose from. If it means BETTER overall performance of the camera and support of the 4K and 2K formats, because you're not stretching the camera or your team too thin, then I say get rid of 720/1080. I doubt I would ever use 1080 in-camera except for the high frame rate (which I would use a lot). I'll be down-converting everything to 1080 in RedCine.

[Jaime Vallés]

2K @ 96fps! Booya!!!!!

(So, does this mean it might be possible to do 4K REDCODE @ 48fps?) :shiftyph34r:

[baro]

Hey Jay, good points. But the more I face the facts, the more I can't get my head around it. It's a digital cinema camera. It's workflow is very much like film. You shoot raw, and you go to a telecine and you output a color corrected downrez. I mean, even if you're shooting TV with your RED, you should be going to a film-like workflow (and there's a lot of people that shoot film today and output to SD, just like your clients who like material in SD).

If you are only able to record REDCODE RAW, the maximum recording rate is 30 fps (unless you go for the windowed mode). 30 fps is not enough to make either a 1080i or a 720p signal (or even a 480i signal).

[Jaime Vallés]

Oh, wait a minute... Are we talking about 2K windowed, or 2K scaled? Because I want the full field of view of 35mm in the overcranked shots. Which is why I was going to shoot 1080p RGB @ 60fps. Are you saying you can maybe do 2K scaled at 96 fps? Or am I missing something?

[baro]

The sensor has a limitation of 60 fps full frame. All frame rates above that are windowed.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

This thread is getting pretty muddy, but here's my thoughts...

I wouldn't shed a tear if 720p was dropped from the spec. The only reason I would shoot 720p on RED is for a higher frame rate. But if 2K can get me close to 100fps, then that's good enough for now. Anything higher than that will probably justify a Phantom rental or even using an overcranked film system.

I do think the camera needs 1080p support or the down-rez from 4K REDCODE to 1080p RGB needs to be at or very near real-time. Too many broadcast applications could benefit from this. OTOH, most broadcasters aren't equipped to handle 1080p anyway, so what's the harm of handing over native 4K REDCODE since they will have to convert (or someone will for them) anyway?

[Matt Uhry]

I like the idea of being able to shoot scaled 720p - what if you get hired to shoot an un-dream job, something that's kind of boring, but would still benefit from the larger sensor? Say some real estate video's or a grisly industrial safety training video, audition tapes, not really worth dedicating much render time or drive space to, it's just gonna deliver on DVD or Web... If you use windowed 2k you are going to have to find some new wide lenses that you don't have if you are going the full sensor route.

By the way, Would it be possible to record in Apple PRO RES instead or Red- Code RGB ?

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Jaime Vallés]

The sensor has a limitation of 60 fps full frame. All frame rates above that are windowed.
Ok, so in that case, 96fps windowed at 2K is fine. I would like to be able to record at least 60p in some format to CF card, though. I'll be shooting cinema at 4K almost all the time, but I'd like to be able to shoot overcranked in full 35mm frame field of view for some shots. What's the fastest fps that can be achieved in full 35mm frame direct to CF card?

[Mark Crabtree]

I am a Varicam owner. I know 720P. Please, no more!

Resolution rules.

[baro]

Ok, so in that case, 96fps windowed at 2K is fine. I would like to be able to record at least 60p in some format to CF card, though. I'll be shooting cinema at 4K almost all the time, but I'd like to be able to shoot overcranked in full 35mm frame field of view for some shots. What's the fastest fps that can be achieved in full 35mm frame direct to CF card?

So far you could save onboard REDCODE RAW 4K @ 30 fps or REDCODE RGB scaled 2K @ 60 fps. Both of these used the full frame. Now maybe the RGB modes will go away.

[TimPipher]

Just to be clear, without 720p and 1080 would three Reds still be able to be in a three camera studio configuration with an HD switcher and recording to a deck?

This is crucial to me.

[HD Hildebrand]

Not sure if this is possible, but what if it could be a firmware choice thing - Choose firmware 1.1 for 720 @ 120fps (better yet 1080p @ 120fps) or choose firmware 1.2 for 2k @ 96fps????

[HD Hildebrand]

Also, I think 720 should be dumped from all production. 1080p minimum. If you shoot 720 and go to a sd dvd you're better off shoot dvcpro 50 for it is less compressed and usually ands up looking better.

[Joe Carney]

you had me at 2K 60p :-)!!!. at 2K 60p I can supplement my income by shooting outdoor sporting shows (fishing, boating...). If I need >96p there is no sin in getting a film camera to handle that. Easily convert to 1080p or i.

At 2K 60 or 96p do we get 10bit 4:4:4? If so, then I'm firmly in the 2K 96p camp. Besides I already own a 720p camera...JVC HD100. Don't need a second one.

[Kevin Halverson]

In hindsight, we would have put in a bigger FPGA (not available when we started) but then the price of the camera would be $4K more expensive. Choices... choices.

Jim

I like choices. Hmmm, do I smell a Virtek in there somewhere? I can only imagine what a Virtex-5 would do to the BOM and resale price!

[Paul Leeming]

2K @ 96fps windowed RedCode RAW for both my cameras please, and whatever framerate you can squeeze out of the FPGA at 4K for onboard recording options like the CF slot and/or RedDrives :)

Like you said Jim, it's a no-brainer, especially if your goals are towards cinema production like mine are. Cheers!!

[Martin Longrie]

2K @ 96fps is my vote

[jaadgy akanni]

FPGA space... imagine what we are giving compared to the competition. Think of the box size. Just think about it for a moment. There is a limit to what we can do. I know that seems an impossible concept since we are offering so much, but trust me... there is a limit.

Jim

Am I thinking crazy(due to my little knowledge, or lack thereof), but would it be possible for the REd team to come up with some type of FPGA module perhaps-sort of a complementary/supplementary FPGA booster thingy we could attach to the camera(via USB, 1394, etc) and get 120pfs @ 2k or 4k. Then we could purchase this as an option for an extra $4k. Jim could you please ask the team if such a thing would be possible? or just ignore this if my question's too absurd...hahaha

[Paris Remillard]

If it's just an issue of throughput, I don't see why 120 or at least 115 fps wouldn't be an option.(sorry, I know Jim already said no so I'm beating a dead horse, but...) If Redcode Raw is still 27MB/s @24fps, then @30fps it should be 33.75MB/s or 1.125MB per frame. Jim said that 2k is about 7MB/s @24fps which comes to about .292 MB per frame. So, .292MB x 115 frames = 33.58MB/s (35MB/s @120fps). If 4k 30fps can be recorded onboard, why not 2k @115 or even 120fps? I'm sure there must be something wrong in my math, but that's what I came up with.

Anyway, my vote is for 2k@96fps over 720p options. I'd also like 4k cinemascope @48fps : ) Thanks.

[Paul Hazlett]

I am on board with dumping as long, as has been said earlier, we have the
720 or 1080 taps and can record both audio and video from them. sdi with embeded
audio.

I am hoping to sell producers on the "look" of Red and want to have to option of handing them a tape or being able to live switch.

This of course would eliminate the need for the HD lens adapter.

[Robert Mott]

If we don't get a clear signal... we'll keep it as it is. And I'll do a special build for me. :-)

Jim

Jim,

If you don't change the current standard I would like to be included in your special build. I would like the 2k @96fps.

RKM

[Kevin Halverson]

Am I thinking crazy(due to my little knowledge, or lack thereof), but would it be possible for the REd team to come up with some type of FBGA module perhaps-sort of a complementary FPGA booster thingy we could attach to the camera(via USB, 1394, etc) and get 120pfs @ 2k or 4k. Then we could purchase this as an option for an extra $4k. Jim could you please ask the team if such a thing would be possible? or just ignore this if my question's too absurd...hahaha

Connecting anything to an FPGA via a serial interface (USB, 1394, etc) is really making very poor use of the massively parallel interface that an FPGA offers. Certainly the post processor side can be serial, but the input side (in order to maintain the high throughput) would be laid out as a parallel path. Single cycle execution, massive parallel architecture & hardware signal processing are all things that FPGAs (or ASICs) do extremely well. Some of the really big FPGAs have costs approaching that of the RED ONE body. Contemplating a core change is not a trivial thing at all.

[jaadgy akanni]

Connecting anything to an FPGA via a serial interface (USB, 1394, etc) is really making very poor use of the massively parallel interface that an FPGA offers. Certainly the post processor side can be serial, but the input side (in order to maintain the high throughput) would be laid out as a parallel path. Single cycle execution, massive parallel architecture & hardware signal processing are all things that FPGAs (or ASICs) do extremely well. Some of the really big FPGAs have costs approaching that of the RED ONE body. Contemplating a core change is not a trivial thing at all.

Thanks man, for enlightening me:biggrin: Also, I'm glad to learn that my question has some validity after all.

[number6]

Wow! Posts are happening faster than I can read them, so I just jumped to the end so I could vote for: a camera with RAW and Red code Raw 2 and 4k with as much frame rate speed as you can squeeze out of it. On mine, you can just leave the fluff off.

[S. Um]

If it's just a question of FPGA size, then maybe you can have both options available (720@120 and 2k@96). Couldn't you just put both options into the FPGA's boot ROM, then boot up in one mode or another? Or maybe flash the FPGA one way or the other?

If the current FPGA cannot handle 2k@120, then there's only a slim chance that future firmware upgrades can do it. But if there's room in the camera, maybe you can consider adding a daughter card upgrade with a larger FPGA?

[I Bloom]

Guys come on. The camera needs to be backwards compatible, and delivery needs to be fast. I have a LOT of clients still shooting SD.

Downrezzing is nice, but it takes time, and that costs money. We need to be able to deliver footage quickly and out of the gate in a lot of different jobs.

Jim, your spending too much time around rich hollywood film makers! :)
A lot of your customers will be using RED as it was designed.. A swiss army knife, designed to serve many needs all at once.

Now that said, I have a confession to make... It's embarrassing: I still don't completely get the whole RGB thing and how it works anyway. I understand REDCode. I have been writing this post on the assumption that RGB is a sort of quicktime format that would allow me to shoot straign to 720 or 1080p. Hope I'm right.

If 2k 96fps could be a software OPTION that could be purchased for those that want it, I think that would be the way to go. I want 720 and 1080... For now... But I HOPE that will change in a year or so

Jay

I really agree with you, as I've already written.

Jay here is my understanding of Red RGB. It's actually similar to REDCODE RAW in a lot of ways. The difference is that you loose the RAW Bayer Pattern once you scale a raw image down. RAW becomes RGB when you create a smaller image because the pixels can't stay seperated.

Similarly to RC Raw, Red RGB is a new format which won't be compatible with every NLE at the getgo. It will be compatible with FCP 6. RGB still uses wavelet compression and I'm not sure if white balance and curves are baked in or just in metadata.

The advantage of 720p and 1080p as I see them are:

*You get to keep the 35mm field of view and depth of field. So it's like shooting on an f900 with a pro35 adapter and with RED's dynamic range and wavelet compression plus no light loss. (If that was the whole spec of RED I'd still be salivating.)

*Also you have less data to deal with. So post is faster, less of a burden on CPU's and hard drives.

*The disadvantage is less pixels.

2K 96fps has these advantages:
*It runs at 96fps.

The disadvantages are:
*Not a 35mm field of view and depth of field. (Ok this could be an advantage... but how much glass do you want to invest in.)

I think we may be suffering from a resolution fetish on this site. I'll take field of view and depth of field over resolution and framerate for my optional modes. I always have the option to go 4K RAW when I want it.

I will also pay for a larger FPGA whenever its ready to come out.

IBloom

[Sao_Bento]

120fps at 2K should just mean 240fps or more at 720p, not the elimination of 720p. That's pretty short sighted. Quite a surprising topic.

[Paris Remillard]

>120fps at 2K should just mean 240fps or more at 720p<

I believe that would only be the case if it were windowed Raw 720p, which would be a very small area of the sensor.

[Zk2007]

If you are only considering cinema i.e.: filmmaking, then 720p doesn't make much sense as a format. But from a broadcast stand point it still makes lots of sense to be able to record cheap and dirty 720p on the fly. I guess as most people in these boards seem to be filmmakers or director wannabes and fewer are working broadcast people, it's only natural people will favor higher resolution over anything else. It's just the trauma of years of low-rez ban. But 720p still make sense.
Now about 1080p I will just keep it to myself. I find it funny people praising 2K and bashing 1080p when the difference is negligible when using a 16:9 sensor, and I will just leave it at that.

[Antoine Fabi]

When we say "things can and will change"... take it to the bank.

I love this company...

Jim

I realise now that when i reserved my RED camera, i have been victim of misrepresentation. The camera will do so much more than i expected.

If you could eventually record 120 fps at 2K ? Man ! It would be incredible. I vote for that.

Even if i'm just a customer, i love this company too.
...it's all about arrogant attitude in the best possible way.

Dream loud and make dreams come true.

Cheers !

[Jason Francois]

I'd love for the camera to do everything.....but....

....you can't be everything to everybody.

No matter how amazing the camera is upon release and no matter how many features it has somebody is going to get their feelings hurt.

I would still like to shoot 720 or 1080 at 120fps, but I really think it should go. This camera is the future and in no time we'll be able to upgrade it to handle 2k and much higher framerates.



I know I'm not going to get everything I want, but I'm certain I'll get more than I need.

[Jeremy Torrie]

Make an executive decision and whack 720.

If we consider the existing non-film cameras such as Varicam and F900 -what are they providing for frame rates? Exactly. Resolution? Ditto. This camera for its price is so superior to anything else out there. Even the SI-2K is doing 72 frames at 720, meaning 2K at 96 FPS is a functionality that goes well above. It's the only thing that comes close at this point.

Of course we can then jump back into the film cam side, but as many have iterated over the last several hours, if you're shooting and there's a requirement for anything over 96 frames, either do it in post, or rent a film cam for your specials. The RED One for its price -are we getting too greedy? Are we taking Jim's management and leadership skills for granted by demanding he give us a tool that does too much, and yet is of superior imaging quality...isn't this unit to ultimately assist with our narratives?

[Anders Holck]

IThe advantage of 720p and 1080p as I see them are:

...
*Also you have less data to deal with. So post is faster, less of a burden on CPU's and hard drives.

*The disadvantage is less pixels.


The big difference is that RAW is already compressed 3:1 in the bayer pattern.

RGB needs 36bit per pixel, RAW only 12.

So a 1080p RGB image is actually around 3/4 the size of a 4k RAW, when uncompressed.
This makes subsequent compression much milder.

2k RAW is almost 1/3 the data of 1080p RGB

Reconstruction and processing of the RAW image is of course more processor intensive.

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

Sorry to hijack this thread, but I don't think I still quite get all the format options of RED (just as Jay A Kelley, nice to see I'm not alone ;-))

Just as a check up: is it (now?) possible to shoot 2K REDCODE RAW with 35mm DOF?

On topic: I don't really care what you choose, although I hope that the conversion to HD in REDCINE will be pretty quick.
Also (you all have to know my opinion is that of a NON-Customer - I don't have the budget for a RED, unfortunately) I WOULDN'T go for the extra 4k payment and bigger FPGA.
Leave that for a RED 2 or a later optional upgrade, would be my advice.

Thanks and best regards,

PS: It's nice to notice that if RED delivered their camera like they promised a year and a half ago, everybody would been raving about this revolutinary camera, and their work *could* be considered *finished*. Instead, they try to keep making the camera better and better.
Nice to know the RED team considers their job *never* to be finished

[Chester Lehmann]

My choice => 2K@96fps or more

[Brandon Freeman]

As an uneducated filmmaker who thinks RED makes purty pictures...

I've seen some great 24p footage cranked to higher speeds in post -- that clip that was posted here on this thread was a perfect example. Why in the heck would 96fps even be a worry? Imagine what you can do with that!!

Keep 2K resolution at high speeds alive, please. 720p uprezzed to 2k or 4k? Gonna be ugly, in my opinion. If you have to choose, go 2k.

As far as 720p and 1080p on general principle, I see how they are important for the camera-man that seeks to use it for other work, but honestly, I'm not buying this camera till I have funding to use it for one thing -- features. For short films, weddings, corporate vids, etc., my paid off HVR-Z1U will work for years, especially once I get the Letus35 flip.

My point is, RED seems overkill for anything other than full budget projects. Sure, the price is revolutionary, but people, a good set-up is still 30-freakin'-K! So, my vote is to keep the camera geared towards the movies, and movies need resolution more than high speed. Again, there are great tools to push an already great speed even farther.

[Larry]

... also in favour of 2K@96/100fps. For me it seems likely the broadcasters will start to insist on 1080p/i master tapes/files and that the 720p format will disappear rather soon. In my ears the wording *cinema* already suggests Red is meant to shoot material which is rather archieved than thrown awy after the first use?

[Anders Holck]

Just as a check up: is it (now?) possible to shoot 2K REDCODE RAW with 35mm DOF?

No changes here. RAW is still only cropped.
4K RAW reads 4096 horizontal photosites, 2k RAW reads 2048.

The big news is 96 fps instead of 60 fps in onboard 2k redcode RAW.

[Elijah Kelley]

2K@96... please...

Thank you again. I don't think I'm being selfish just looking out for my best interest. :innocent: those oxymorons pop up everywhere.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I'm jumping in here way late and haven't read to the end... but I don't see "But then we don't need to downrez" as a valid excuse.

1) 720 and 1080RGB is in REDCode. That's not a deliverable codec.
2) If the client is going to convert to a useable format they might as well downrez from 2k.
3) If the client can use REDCode and doesn't need to convert to another format then they can just use 2k RAW and not debayer anyway.

Also in regards to the discussion of 16mm vs 35mm DOF... You're shooting overcranked footage... I'm guessing your aperture is wide open. And I'm guessing you're probably shooting the rest of your project with a smaller aperture. There you go... 35mm DOF.

[luis bustamante]

yes, we prefer windowed 2k @ 96 fps over 720p all the way. Ditch 1080p as well if you want, no use for that either over here.

Also, we would absolutely pay the additional 4 grand to get 120 fps on camera, but maybe it's a bit too late for that.

Jim, as always thanks for everything!

[Johnny Friday]

Shooting undewater docs......I'm all for 2k @ 96fps.....1080p & 720p will be a final product for me in 99% of the case, but I'd much prefer shooting 2k Red raw and downrez from 2k or 4k. Clearly I see no huge benefit in 120fps VS. 96fps----can take care of that in post if necessary.

I raise my hand for 2k at 96fps!!
Thanks for asking the community

[Joe Carney]

If you are only considering cinema i.e.: filmmaking, then 720p doesn't make much sense as a format. But from a broadcast stand point it still makes lots of sense to be able to record cheap and dirty 720p on the fly. I guess as most people in these boards seem to be filmmakers or director wannabes and fewer are working broadcast people, it's only natural people will favor higher resolution over anything else. It's just the trauma of years of low-rez ban. But 720p still make sense.
Now about 1080p I will just keep it to myself. I find it funny people praising 2K and bashing 1080p when the difference is negligible when using a 16:9 sensor, and I will just leave it at that.


It's because 2K is so close to 1080p many feel 1080p is redundant. Final output can be anything you want.
I don't see RED as a real time broadcast camera just yet.

[Marc Higa]

What's the advantage if we scrap 2k all together and lets just make this a 4k camera always. Would we gain anything if 2k is off the menu? When you shoot 35mm we always down convert to HD, SD... why not with Redcine.

So I say scrap 2k, but only if this might allow us to get 4k@96fps.

Is this possible?

[I Bloom]

As an uneducated filmmaker who thinks RED makes purty pictures...

I've seen some great 24p footage cranked to higher speeds in post -- that clip that was posted here on this thread was a perfect example. Why in the heck would 96fps even be a worry? Imagine what you can do with that!!

Keep 2K resolution at high speeds alive, please. 720p uprezzed to 2k or 4k? Gonna be ugly, in my opinion. If you have to choose, go 2k.

As far as 720p and 1080p on general principle, I see how they are important for the camera-man that seeks to use it for other work, but honestly, I'm not buying this camera till I have funding to use it for one thing -- features. For short films, weddings, corporate vids, etc., my paid off HVR-Z1U will work for years, especially once I get the Letus35 flip.

My point is, RED seems overkill for anything other than full budget projects. Sure, the price is revolutionary, but people, a good set-up is still 30-freakin'-K! So, my vote is to keep the camera geared towards the movies, and movies need resolution more than high speed. Again, there are great tools to push an already great speed even farther.

Aren't you basically saying, "I'm not buying a red until my ship comes in."
Instead of saying "I can make this system pay for itself and also work toward my dreams." I've only shot one wedding in my life, for my cousin, but you know what, that day I would have killed for 11+ stops of dynamic range and the ability to up the gain without gross noise. A wedding videographer shooting on RED has a serious leg up.

Doesn't a 720p RED cut straight into the huge market for Prosumer Camera combined with 35mm adapters. Plus without annoying light loss, slipping focus on the ground glass and flipped images.

I see the two sides of this discussion like this:
The 2K'ers say, "Give me a more awesome toys."
The 720/1080p'ers say "Help this make money for me."
Who is more likely to come back and upgrade to RED Two.

I'm in favor of multiple builds. It would be great if we could set the camera up for either mode.

IBloom

[Anders Holck]

1) 720 and 1080RGB is in REDCode. That's not a deliverable codec.


It actually is. There is a Quicktime codec, and announced support for FCP.



2) If the client is going to convert to a useable format they might as well downrez from 2k.


The key here is that 2k is cropped only.

If we ditch 1080p, the only way to get full 35mm format is to shoot 4k. That means you need to debayer and scale to get 1080p.

[Brandon Freeman]

Aren't you basically saying, "I'm not buying a red until my ship comes in."
Instead of saying "I can make this system pay for itself and also work toward my dreams." I've only shot one wedding in my life, for my cousin, but you know what, that day I would have killed for 11+ stops of dynamic range. A wedding videographer shooting on RED has a serious leg up.

I see the two sides of this discussion like this:
The 2K'ers say, "Give me a more awesome toys."
The 720/1080p'ers say "Help this make money for me."
Who is more likely to come back and upgrade to RED Two.

I'm in favor of multiple builds. It would be great if we could set the camera up for either mode.

IBloom

Well, with all due respect to RED and Jim, I don't need a particular camera to fulfill my dreams. That comes from hard work and dedication, as well as people skills. I come from the school of thought that you work your way up as opposed to jump into the water without a plan. So, yeah, I am waiting for my ship to come in before I get a RED, but I'm also getting ready for that ship by making films now with the tools I have, and building relationships with those that can help me get where I need to go.

As far as weddings and corporate vids? I just don't see the need being justified. I sure as heck would not let anyone touch my RED for anything like that. They'd get a video system, not a digital cinema system. :)

[I Bloom]

Well, with all due respect to RED and Jim, I don't need a particular camera to fulfill my dreams. That comes from hard work and dedication, as well as people skills. I come from the school of thought that you work your way up as opposed to jump into the water without a plan. So, yeah, I am waiting for my ship to come in before I get a RED, but I'm also getting ready for that ship by making films now with the tools I have, and building relationships with those that can help me get where I need to go.

As far as weddings and corporate vids? I just don't see the need being justified. I sure as heck would not let anyone touch my RED for anything like that. They'd get a video system, not a digital cinema system. :)

You can plan forever, eventually you have to jump in the water. Besides if the camera is only going to be used when you make a movie than it sounds like you should be renting a RED not buying it.

IBloom

[Brandon Freeman]

You can plan forever, eventually you have to jump in the water. Besides if the camera is only going to be used when you make a movie than it sounds like you should be renting a RED not buying it.

IBloom

You are right on the money, you do eventually have to jump. But having money up front is oh so important to me -- than I can focus on doing what I want to do with the camera, not what I have to do. That's what happened with my Z1U -- I went into debt and did a bunch of jobs that I despised or mildly tolerated -- I hate doing wedding videos, fyi -- and yes, it tainted the relationship a bit. (I'm a relational guy.)

When I spend $30k or more on something like this, I won't be caught dead using it for videos that the Z1U can easily do. I'd sooner walk off a cliff.

That being said, I am looking to do a LOTTA features in the next several years, as well as be a resource to other local filmmakers in my area. Again, when the time (and the money) is right.

Besides, I already got into debt again recently for a car for my wife. :) Woman takes precedent over camera, a wise man once said. :)

[David Battistella]

Well,

I have read through the 225 posts here and I am quite intrigued by the possibilities and the responses. I think there are a few considerations. ibloom and J.A Kelly have made some seriously great points in favour of keeping 720P and 1080P.

Here is why I like the idea of keeping the HD formats.

1. HD has only recently become the delivery and broadcast standard for broadcast television. There are still many instances where SD is delivered. We are still in an HD/SD world and for these reasons shooting HD and delivering HD and SD still makes some sense (from a time and labour perspective?).

2. I like the fact that with the 1080 and 720 features enabled the RED is effectively both a Varicam and F-900/E950 killer. You can say you are effectively offering the same product to existing clients. (clients are far less likely to be as visionary as most of us are)

3. Editing natively in REDCODE in FCP in either of these resolutions is attractive. Not everyone will be "one lighting" their footage, and if you are doing work for the production departments of major amnets then simpler is better. Many of these calls come with the spec pre-defined like (project needs to be shot on 720P, etc.) And why shouldn't they get a taste of how great this footage and codec is? So scalability is definitely a factor. Then again, broadcasters may never warm to RED.

4. Does eliminating HD resolutions effectively render RED useless in any kind of a live set-up? (not 1080 off the HDSDI outputs?) If I were doing a multicamera live HD event (like 10 or 12 camera's) wouldn't I salivate at the lens options that RED has to offer me?

5. While I agree that RED is best suited as a cinema camera is it wise to ignore the many other channels of distribution and the speed with which we can access them (will web direct need to be shot 2k or 4K) The camera is priced to put the technology in the hands of people who shoot this content?

6. A workflow question? How much time do I save by shooting 720P compared to shooting 2K?

Again, this is really a question of the difference is between 2K in the Pipeline and what 720P or 1080P is in the pipeline. It's hard to answer these questions until the advantages and disadvantages of both are seen in real working workflows. If 2K adds extra steps and time then that needs to be considered because the functionality and modularity of the camera is extended by the flexibilty of formats that ca be recorded.

7. Will cutting HD draw a line in the sand and limit broadcast sales?

With all of this said I can say that I understand that it makes perfect sense to record the highest quality image at all times and then worry about the down converts later. This is a bit of a "camera department" mentality. Having been in the post end of the business for many years there are time when more flexible workflows could have achieve the needs of any specific project.

What I love most about RED is flexibility and modular design. Why shouldn't this extend beyond the camera body to REDCINE and the rest of the workflows?

To me, the first release of the camera should at least cover the widely accepted HD formats of the day. Future releases of the camera and or firmware can drop these formats.

By leaving HD in the camera I think that you are increasing the chances for a VERY wide acceptance of the technology and allowing it into as many hands as possible. RED will set and be the standard, but don't close the door on HD just yet, even though I agree that it makes perfect logical sense to do so.

David

[number6]

Couldn't the little pocket Red have all the 720 and 1080p capabilities? Those are just prosumer formats anyway, so separate them from the big guy and make them easier to tote.

[Hendry]

As a longtime lurker and reservation holder, this seemed like a great time to jump into the fray. I also vote for 2k at 96fps with one important caveat. That it be scaled, not windowed. The best part of 720p at 120fps was that it would have the FOV/DOF of 35mm. If 2k at 96fps can only be in s16 frame size, than the extra resolution boost at 2k over 720p is not worth it.

While this is a Digital Cinema camera(and I will be shooting in 4k RedRaw almost all of the time), I think it is safe to say that the vast majority of work will be viewed on TV's and the web. The extra resolution won't matter so much here, but the 35mm FOV/DOF would.

This is a tough call. Once again, for me, it hinges upon 35 vs. s16 FOV.

[Anders Holck]

The best part of 720p at 120fps was that it would have the FOV/DOF of 35mm. If 2k at 96fps can only be in s16 frame size, than the extra resolution boost at 2k over 720p is not worth it.

Check the specs again. 720p120 can only be done from the 2k croppped sensor.

[Babu Kantamneni]

Hee Haahaaa!!!
What about having Raw port and frame rates Jim?
babu

[CJ Roy]

Leaving clients to be responsible to downrez to 1080/720 is a VERY scary idea. Now I have to play additional tech support that I didn't before. I felt comfortable delivering 4k, 2k, 1080, 720 because one of those formats is what they'd ask for, anything else could be additional work, thus additional income.
Now this decision either 1. cuts out the 720/1080 market for me (which is larger than 2k/4k) or 2. requires me to do more work to hand off 720/1080.

I'd love to get as fast as frame rates as possible. Is there any other way to do it without losing 1080? I could live without 720, but 1080 is still a very attractive option for a lot of the industries. What's the fastest 1080 frame rate we could get if we lost 720?

Thanks.

-CJ

[Gavin Greenwalt]

It actually is. There is a Quicktime codec, and announced support for FCP.

The key here is that 2k is cropped only.

If we ditch 1080p, the only way to get full 35mm format is to shoot 4k. That means you need to debayer and scale to get 1080p.

Yes but if 1080p Redcode RGB is a 'deliverable format' then so is 2k RAW. And the 2k RAW of the two will be a smaller file.

[Paul Hazlett]

As a longtime lurker and reservation holder, this seemed like a great time to jump into the fray. I also vote for 2k at 96fps with one important caveat. That it be scaled, not windowed. The best part of 720p at 120fps was that it would have the FOV/DOF of 35mm. If 2k at 96fps can only be in s16 frame size, than the extra resolution boost at 2k over 720p is not worth it.

While this is a Digital Cinema camera(and I will be shooting in 4k RedRaw almost all of the time), I think it is safe to say that the vast majority of work will be viewed on TV's and the web. The extra resolution won't matter so much here, but the 35mm FOV/DOF would.

This is a tough call. Once again, for me, it hinges upon 35 vs. s16 FOV.


Well put as well as David's insightfull comments above. I think this issue
really draws a line in the sand between The Dcinema crowd and the rest of the media community who are doing everything but making movies.

[Hendry]

Check the specs again. 720p120 can only be done from the 2k croppped sensor.

Thanks for the correction, Anders. I'm not sure why I thought 720p was scaled from the full sensor. Was it always this way?

Anyway, I guess it makes my vote easier. 2k at 96fps it is.

[Anders Holck]

Yes but if 1080p Redcode RGB is a 'deliverable format' then so is 2k RAW. And the 2k RAW of the two will be a smaller file.

And also cropped only!

[Michael Brennan]

If histroy teaches us anything...Projects for TV delivery will go for higher frame rate and take the hit on resolution.
Features will want to keep quality at 2k or above.

Having played with the early 500fps low res digital slomo cams I observed an interesting effect. Producers and directors though the "quality" of the images were "fantastic" when actually it was a 8 bit noisey mush worse than a single chip video "mincam'
Slow motion capture of an event that reveals detail that is normally lost at 24p/25p fools the brain somewhat that there is more detail in the image than actually exists. It is engauged by seeing detail (albeit low) that it normally is a blurr.

Jim, if you may be able do 96 @2k in the future does that mean you may be able to do 180 @720p in the future?
This would be very popular for TV work.


As a (future) reference, Sony Super motion TV outside broadcast camera will apparently be able to do 1920x1080 @ 90p

NAC/Arri 300fps 3 chip 1920x1080 is next in line but it is more than a little noisy and needs a mains powered base station. Rental rates for both these cameras is very high and portability very low.




Mike Brennan

[Anders Holck]

Thanks for the correction, Anders. I'm not sure why I thought 720p was scaled from the full sensor. Was it always this way?

Anyway, I guess it makes my vote easier. 2k at 96fps it is.


720 can be both scaled and cropped. 60 fps in scaled and 120 in cropped.

[SF Geek]

I need to be able to give the clients 720p or 1080p RGB footage the day of the shoot for most of the jobs that will pay for the camera. Remember nothing but the highest end commercial and big budget Narritive even deals with 4k footage. Sure 4k is the future, but to deny what is most used today is a big mistake. I don't even care about frame rates in this argument.

[SF Geek]

Also, I know that i could just rent a deck to get 720 and 1080 stuff, but that's a rental expense that i would rather pocket.

[Steve Gibby]

Interesting thread, to say the least…

What attracted me to the RED One camera system, clear back in Autumn 2005 when it was first proposed, were these key concepts: utility, scalability, affordability, and flexibility. All of those words point to professional breadth, and lets face it, the motion media business is just that – a business. Over the years I’ve broadened my skill sets and genres serviced for two reasons: professional fulfillment and revenue potential. Those same two reasons attracted me to the RED One camera system: professional fulfillment and revenue potential. I was a perfect candidate to adopt a camera like RED One long before there was a RED One – but such a camera never existed. When it came along it was a no-brainer for me to hop aboard the RED train.

Fast-forward to what Jim has proposed in this thread. Firstly, I think everyone needs to remember how remarkable it is for us potential adopters to be heavily involved in the development process. To be asked our opinions to this degree is unprecedented in the motion media industry. Much appreciated Jim.

A huge percentage of RED User members are indie, cine-style oriented, so the opinions expressed on this board generally reflect that demographic and orientation. But is that demographic and are those opinions an accurate reflection of the overall market for RED One? I don’t think so. The days of people working in just a limited range of production genres and styles are rapidly coming to a close – and convergent technology is enabling that transition. Progressive production people of today and tomorrow are/will be involved in multiple genres and styles of production for the same two reasons I mentioned above: professional fulfillment and revenue generation potential.

Let’s talk markets for RED One in terms of numbers. Features are a tiny percentage of the overall number of productions each year. Other cine-style productions are also in the minority. EFP productions far outnumber cine productions in terms of overall production numbers. Bottom line: EFP is by far the largest potential market, in potential sales and rentals, for RED One. Large numbers of EFP productions are now shot with hybrid cine-style equipment and style, but they are never intended for the big screen. Large numbers of the non-union workforce (the overwhelming majority) are cross-training to be able to work in a wide variety of productions and skill sets.

Enter the RED One camera system. IMO RED One is an excellent enabler for the transition I outlined in the paragraph above. I think RED will shoot themselves in the foot if they don’t capitalize on the largest market for their camera system: the EFP production industry. I also think that production workers in the motion media industry that ignore the revenue potential of cross-training to work in the EFP industry will fall short of their professional and fiscal potential.

Bottom line
Jim Jannard and the rest of the RED Team are friends of mine, and they know I am always good for an honest professional opinion. I respect the heck out of those guys for their concepts and hard work – they seriously rock! That said, I agree with what Sharkguy posted in his post #124. I agree with what Anders Holk posted in his post #128. I agree with what iBloom posted in his post #201. Windowed 2k RC RAW @96fps would be excellent indeed – but even better if it was scaled. For me, 720p could go away if it enabled 2k RC RAW @96fps. But for me to easily do a lot of the genres I work in, I think 1080p needs to stay. We’ve confirmed that using an Abakas or RED B4 adaptor that B4 2/3” lenses will cover 2k, but no tests have been done to check the resolution and quality of those images. If RED was to totally eliminate 1080p, and a 2k/B4 adaptor/B4 lens setup turned out to not work well, that would effectively eliminate B4 2/3” lens use on RED One – which would preclude lots of guys from using their 2/3” HD lenses, and also eliminate a lot of the EFP market potential from RED One sales, including most television networks and independent television production companies (packagers/self-syndicators)

2k RC RAW @96fps would be very cool, keeping 1080p, but eliminating 720p if that’s what it takes to get the added 2k frame rate. As Matt Uhry pointed out, losing 720p120 would eliminate some of the “bread & butter” project capability with RED One. From the beginning and for 20 months now RED One has been stated as a D-cinema camera that was also capable of being re-lensed and re-accessorized for extensive EFP work. IMO any move that erodes the scalability, utility, and flexibility of RED One would be a move backwards in terms of marketability of the camera for RED and revenue generating potential of the camera system for adopters.

Again Jim… thanks for keeping everyone in the developmental loop…much appreciated!

[Antoine Baumann]

Hee Haahaaa!!!
What about having Raw port and frame rates Jim?
babu

if you choose the RAW port, then you are not concern, as you can record what the sensor is able to, that is 60fps @ 4,5K and 120fps @ 2K

antoine.

Edit: it is crazy the number of post and the speed :usd:

[Craig Bowman]

The sudden, lets dump 1080p and 720p recording this close to delivery feels to me like Red discovered its going to be a bigger hassle to implement it than you first thought and might even delay shipping to try and include it at this point as it may be a hardware issue rather than just software enablement.

Ultimately, things were and are always subject to change.

So, am I close?

[Steve Freebairn]

What about doing a Firmware update so that we can choose one option or the other. So, if you are shooting sports or other high speed stuff, you can firmware update to use 120fps 720p. If you need to do stuff where resolution is more important, then you firmware update to 2k at 96fps. Will that work Jim?

[Gavin Greenwalt]

The sudden, lets dump 1080p and 720p recording this close to delivery feels to me like Red discovered its going to be a bigger hassle to implement it than you first thought and might even delay shipping to try and include it at this point as it may be a hardware issue rather than just software enablement.

Ultimately, things were and are always subject to change.

So, am I close?

Not really because RGB was already dropped from the first firmware version. And that was known a long time ago.

[David Battistella]

Interesting thread, to say the least…

What attracted me to the RED One camera system, clear back in Autumn 2005 when it was first proposed, were these key concepts: utility, scalability, affordability, and flexibility. All of those words point to professional breadth, and lets face it, the motion media business is just that – a business. Over the years I’ve broadened my skill sets and genres serviced for two reasons: professional fulfillment and revenue potential. Those same two reasons attracted me to the RED One camera system: professional fulfillment and revenue potential. I was a perfect candidate to adopt a camera like RED One long before there was a RED One – but such a camera never existed. When it came along it was a no-brainer for me to hop aboard the RED train.

Fast-forward to what Jim has proposed in this thread. Firstly, I think everyone needs to remember how remarkable it is for us potential adopters to be heavily involved in the development process. To be asked our opinions to this degree is unprecedented in the motion media industry. Much appreciated Jim.

A huge percentage of RED User members are indie, cine-style oriented, so the opinions expressed on this board generally reflect that demographic and orientation. But is that demographic and are those opinions an accurate reflection of the overall market for RED One? I don’t think so. The days of people working in just a limited range of production genres and styles are rapidly coming to a close – and convergent technology is enabling that transition. Progressive production people of today and tomorrow are/will be involved in multiple genres and styles of production for the same two reasons I mentioned above: professional fulfillment and revenue generation potential.

Let’s talk markets for RED One in terms of numbers. Features are a tiny percentage of the overall number of productions each year. Other cine-style productions are also in the minority. EFP productions far outnumber cine productions in terms of overall production numbers. Bottom line: EFP is by far the largest potential market, in potential sales and rentals, for RED One. Large numbers of EFP productions are now shot with hybrid cine-style equipment and style, but they are never intended for the big screen. Large numbers of the non-union workforce (the overwhelming majority) are cross-training to be able to work in a wide variety of productions and skill sets.

Enter the RED One camera system. IMO RED One is an excellent enabler for the transition I outlined in the paragraph above. I think RED will shoot themselves in the foot of they don’t capitalize on the largest market for their camera system: the EFP production industry. I also think that production workers in the motion media industry that ignore the revenue potential of cross-training to work in the EFP industry will fall short of their professional and fiscal potential.

Bottom line
Jim Jannard and the rest of the RED Team are friends of mine, and they know I am always good for an honest professional opinion. I respect the heck out of those guys for their concepts and hard work – they seriously rock! That said, I agree with what Sharkguy posted in his post #124. I agree with what Anders Holk posted in his post #128. I agree with what iBloom posted in his post #201. Windowed 2k RC RAW @96fps would be excellent indeed – but even better if it was scaled. For me, 720p could go away if it enabled 2k RC RAW @96fps. But for me to easily do a lot of the genres I work in, I think 1080p needs to stay. We’ve confirmed that using an Abakas or RED B4 adaptor that B4 2/3” lenses will cover 2k, but no tests have been done to check the resolution and quality of those images. If RED was to totally eliminate 1080p, and a 2k/B4 adaptor/B4 lens setup turned out to not work well, that would effectively eliminate B4 2/3” lens use on RED One – which would preclude lots of guys from using their 2/3” HD lenses, and also eliminate a lot of the EFP market potential from RED One sales, including a lot of television networks and independent television production companies (packagers/self-syndicators)

2k RC RAW @96fps would be very cool, keeping 1080p, but eliminating 720p if that’s what it takes to get the added 2k frame rate. As Matt Uhry pointed out, losing 720p120 would eliminate some of the “bread & butter” project capability with RED One. From the beginning and for 20 months now RED One has been stated as a D-cinema camera that was also capable of being re-lensed and re-accessorized for extensive EFP work. IMO any move that erodes the scalability, utility, and flexibility of RED One would be a move backwards in terms of marketability of the camera for RED and revenue generating potential of the camera system for adopters.

Again Jim… thanks for keeping everyone in the developmental loop…much appreciated!



This is just an excellent post!

David

[Antoine Baumann]

If histroy teaches us anything...Projects for TV delivery will go for higher frame rate and take the hit on resolution.


Yes you might be right, I read a small study on that: viewers liked much 1280x720 60/50p over 1920x1080 30/25p...

antoine.

[SF Geek]

We need to know more facts before making this decision. Are we talking only about frame rate? Or are we saying that if we take 2k@96 that there will be no room for 1080 and 720 scaling at all? Are we talking about frame rates or are we talking about being able to shoot 720 and 1080 scaled?

[Cory Schulthies]

What about doing a Firmware update so that we can choose one option or the other. So, if you are shooting sports or other high speed stuff, you can firmware update to use 120fps 720p. If you need to do stuff where resolution is more important, then you firmware update to 2k at 96fps. Will that work Jim?


I like the idea of options. Everybody is going to do some thing different with their camera, why can't we have both frame rates as an option? I know I would have use for both of them.

[Paul Hazlett]

The sudden, lets dump 1080p and 720p recording this close to delivery feels to me like Red discovered its going to be a bigger hassle to implement it than you first thought and might even delay shipping to try and include it at this point as it may be a hardware issue rather than just software enablement.

Ultimately, things were and are always subject to change.

So, am I close?

I have no real knowledge of how close you might be, but....

I think Mr. Jannard was feeling frisky while carrying what one post said was a very big spoon to stir the pot, a pot that has grown many tentacles on its own.

[Craig Schober]

the efp/eng guys make good points for keeping the 720 and 1080 formats but jim did ask us what we want. and as a collective, it appears that most people right now choose resolution over fps/formats even if it isn't the best business decision for red's future market.

personally, i'm just excited to be included in a collective decision like this. unfortunately i don't have a strong opinion one way or the other. my instinct is to go for the 2k. at least that will cut well with 4k. but...

it does seem like a huge sacrifice to give up two hd in-camera native formats just to get some more fps. the modularity of red is about more than just it's physical characteristics. i predict a fair amount of value can be had from spitting out 720p and 1080p as opposed to adding a pc, a few steps and rendering times to final output.

my vote is to keep the red as is.

i guess i did have an opinion after all.

[Rodrigo Lizana]

STOP. Engineers have just said that 2K at 96fps for now is all we can talk about as a possible option.

Jim

I like the idea but I´m wondering how long are the downconvertion render times in Red Cine...The thing is that if it takes one day to downconvert two hours of RedCine 2K 96fps to 1080i/720p for distribution it would be a problem for TV spots where time is money.

On the other hand Jim, I´m wondering how you feel about 60fps@4K to Red Ram (for the future of course)...

thanks

[I Bloom]

Interesting thread, to say the least…

What attracted me to the RED One camera system, clear back in Autumn 2005 when it was first proposed, were these key concepts: utility, scalability, affordability, and flexibility. All of those words point to professional breadth, and lets face it, the motion media business is just that – a business. Over the years I’ve broadened my skill sets and genres serviced for two reasons: professional fulfillment and revenue potential. Those same two reasons attracted me to the RED One camera system: professional fulfillment and revenue potential. I was a perfect candidate to adopt a camera like RED One long before there was a RED One – but such a camera never existed. When it came along it was a no-brainer for me to hop aboard the RED train.....

"Professional fulfillment and revenue potential." Gibby you are a great writer, and you do a great job of distilling the essence of your point of view.

And I'm not just saying that because I agree with you this time. :shifty:

IBloom

[Darwin]

Did the Panasonic HVX200 really need a tape drive? ..Drop the 720 & 1080 in favor of 2k/96

[Thom Steinhoff]

...Windowed 2k RC RAW @96fps would be excellent indeed – but even better if it was scaled. For me, 720p could go away if it enabled 2k RC RAW @96fps. But for me to easily do a lot of the genres I work in, I think 1080p needs to stay.

I very much agree with Gibby. 1080p scaled for DOF or cropped for speed, needs to stay. I'd rather the developers spend the time pushing the frame rate for 1080p scaled to it's highest potential than spending even a minute at 720p.

1080p has become the new minimum standard, would position Red well for live TV and by recording it in RGB directly, it gives the run and gun crowd the instant gratification they need.

Also, did I remember correctly--the HDMI out is 1080p, correct? I have a sneaking feeling it was 720p--but please tell me it's 1080--we really need to be able to use this on live/switched stuff.

But 2K RC Raw at 96fps would be excellent--and of course it is cropped (It's raw, hello?!!--it has to be cropped) Since I will only do feature work, 720p is not even on my Radar as there is no way it will cut with 4K--but 2K should do just fine.

I'm really hoping the Red Raid is announced soon to put everyone's fears to rest.

plug for RED RAID

In my mind, Red Raid should be a computer in it's own right and connect directly to the Raw port. You should be able to dock your Red Drive onto it to add your high speed footage as stretched out RedCode Raw footage to everything else you've shot. So you could shoot 4K at the highest frame rate possible to the Raid, then when the camera stops, the Raid box would convert the Raw to Redcode Raw and spool it down to the Drive/Ram module and make room for the next shot.

This way, you don't need endless drive storage--you just need enough for 30 seconds? 1 Minute? 2 Minutes? 5 Minutes? It just needs to be fast enough to handle Raw recording then smart enough to convert it to RedCode Raw to intermix with your other footage when the shooting is done.

Once triggered, the recording should go in a loop so if you are waiting for a stunt it is the end point that determines the recording--not the starting point. So, if you have only 30 seconds of cache available, you trigger and even if it is crunching away for 5 minutes, after the amazing stunt you hit stop and the last 30 seconds would be converted and spooled to the Red Drive.

As for naming, I think it could be called Red Raw Cache, or Red Rocket pack.

Back to the thread...

IMHO 720p can take a bullet for 2k/96 but I think 1080p should be spared.