why the eu and other pal-continens want 100p

[laguun]

- flicker.
when fluroscent lights (as in neon etc) discharge offsync of the framerate, one can get terrible flicker.
we had several jobs in house where we had to correct this for entire movies, documentaries being the most popular victim of these problems.

- soundsync.
luckily, the EU and PAL countries in general have been spared by drop/non-dropframe, pullup/down etc when producing 25/50 and not working internationally. So, many people, especially soundstudios and rather national postproductions aren´t even aware that there -could- be more than one framerate....

- Timecode.
many devices here only support 25/50 - no 24. that includes several devices that have 24 in the U.S., cameras, vcrs, monitors etc.

- Customers.
many broadcasters do co-finance cinematic production here in the EU, and they want 25/50 almost all the time as master. That includes most public broadcasters, who are the main co-producers for many potential red-clients.

- sync.
many houses only have 25/50, especially advertising agencies, mid-level and smaller postprohouses etc.

- human error & workflow.
25/50 and 96 would be another layer of error for any project involving red and higher framerates.

this is just the tip of the iceberg, so if feasible, 100p additionally to 96 (or instead, evil grin) would be extremly helpful for many people in many nations working at whatever point in the pipeline of a production using red.

p.s. edit: the "t" in the threads title "continents" is missing, probably happened while converting the framerate ;)

[Floris Liesker]

I think you are making this 100 fps thing much bigger than necessary.

-flicker: any framerate above 50 fps will show 50hz flicker. No matter if it's a multiplication of 50 or not.

- soundsync and all the other points after that:
Your worries would be valid if the final movie would be played back at 96 fps. It will not. This framerate is for slow-motion purposes. The movie will be shot in 96 fps but played back in 25 fps. No problems for the timecode, customers, sync, human error & workflow.

[dalemccready]

Such a shame not to hit the nice round 100FPS though to get the next 'window'

[Barend Onneweer]

I'm not 'getting' the problem either. Sync sound on slomo's? Floris says it all.

The only time I'd worry about sound in slomo's is when shooting music videos at higher framerates to get that 'slomotion but still lipsync' look. But you can shoot any framerate for that, as long as you speed up the audio to which the singer playbacks accordingly.

Barend

[laguun]

I think you are making this 100 fps thing much bigger than necessary.

no. not at all. after 17 years highspeed shooting you know the problems.



-flicker: any framerate above 50 fps will show 50hz flicker. No matter if it's a multiplication of 50 or not.

wrong.
if you have an unequal frequency, the flicker will wander.
to give you an example: its starting in frame #1 in field 1, then in frame #2 its in field 2, frame 3 its a half in field 2, next half in field 1 of frame 4....
thats bad.

and when you ask - why fields? we do progressive?
now, think about it, when was the last time you saw
nascar/formula 1,
nba or worldchampionsship,
winter or summerolympics
etc in 24p?

correct, thats a whole market, and thats why -all- the topend sportcameras have multiplies of 30 & 25.



- soundsync and all the other points after that:
Your worries would be valid if the final movie would be played back at 96 fps.
It will not. This framerate is for slow-motion purposes. The movie will be shot in 96 fps but played back in 25 fps.

think about -multiple- cameras. this is typical for every more expensive do-it once shot. let me explain this with a standard scenario.
take a concert.
2hrs 30 runtimes.
only 5 cameras. 2 highspeeds for drama.
now think about editing this in multicam.

when shooting in 96, you have to rerender -everything- with loss in imagequality and -time- to have a typical NLE able to edit this in sync.

How do you want to use the 96p in -not- highspeed in the material? just dropping frames makes motion jittery?
get the idea?

now think about any cultural event (dance, opera), sports, sophisticated SFX as serial carcrash with helicams... think about any multicam scenario where speedrampediting is necessary... besides losing audiosync (one of the big worfklow advantages of digital cinema) you loose imagequality and audioquality.

Furthermore, there are to many situations where you shoot at max fps, even when its not planned as constant timelapse to list. all of these will require seperate logistics and soundprocesses when shot at 96.



No problems for the timecode, customers, sync, human error & workflow.
TC: think why free run does exist as timecode option. how do you want, btw, record a downconverted daily to digi/beta/dvd/dv? they only do 25p here in europe.
customers: try to convince -any- large sportproducer that you are the only one who isn´t on 25/50/100/150 freerun TC.
sync: doable, but you need triplesync instead of normal sync, therefore requiring additional gear, producing additional cost, weights, logistics, cables etc.
human error & workflow: soundstudio calls: "why is everything not lipsync? we started with tape one but it doesn´t match after some time?" - "did you start with the 24p portion of the on-line on track 1-16?" - "i don know, i just have a EDL and protools imported it...". from here on diagnostics will be fun.

sorry if i am a little bit direct - but it is necessary to help people to understand how important this issue is.

[Floris Liesker]

No offence, Laguun.

About the flicker: If you shoot a 50hz flicker at 100 fps the flicker will be very very visible, consistantly be on and off from frame to frame. To my taste that looks just as bad as 50 hz flicker at 96 fps, but hey, that's a taste issue.

About the workflow and mixing highspeed with 25 fps:
If you are using the Red One as a sports-event camera in massive multicam setups and you want to be able to extract realtime 25 fps out of the highspeed footage, then yeah, 100 fps would be better for you.

I however think of the Red One as a digital cinema camera. Not a multicam thing.
My bad.

[laguun]

No offence, Laguun.

great, wasnt at all intended - i just wanted to make some points quite clear.



About the flicker: If you shoot a 50hz flicker at 100 fps the flicker will be very very visible, consistantly be on and off from frame to frame.

correct - it will be however be -constant-



To my taste that looks just as bad as 50 hz flicker at 96 fps, but hey, that's a taste issue.

yes and no - it doesn´t look much better when uncorrected, however postproduction can deal -much- better with consistent flicker to fix it, while 96 to 25 is quite complex.
think about shooting at sitting ducks or moving targets




About the workflow and mixing highspeed with 25 fps:
If you are using the Red One as a sports-event camera in massive multicam setups and you want to be able to extract realtime 25 fps out of the highspeed footage, then yeah, 100 fps would be better for you.
I however think of the Red One as a digital cinema camera.
for digital cinema, the 100p issue is less problematic, however, last year germany had a documentary about the world soccer championsship on place one of the charts, plenty of in game intercuts etc, and red would have been the perfect cam at 100p for this, just as example.

[Floris Liesker]

In an effort to be as clear as possible: I just don't want to sound spoilt when the red team states 96p@2k is the utter limit, but I would love a 100 fps option. I live in 25 fps land too, and mutiplying and dividing by 4 is a lot easier than by 3,84.

OK, now we're all cool this thread may rest in peace.

[laguun]

In an effort to be as clear as possible: I just don't want to sound spoilt when the red team states 96p@2k is the utter limit, but I would love a 100 fps option. I live in 25 fps land too, and mutiplying and dividing by 4 is a lot easier than by 3,84.

yes, if technical limits "only" allow 96 - thats already excellent. Its only important to underline how extremly helpful 100p would be in europe and the rest of the palworld - and that 96 would probably make the red much less popular in certain EFP customerbases (as sport, concert/event multicam, etc)



OK, now we're all cool this thread may rest in peace.
i am afraid rumors about any end of the wicked 23.98/24/25/29.97/30 and up might be premature ;)

[Emanuel A.]

Update from the company's owner himself (Aug-01 2007 3:00 GMT 4:00 CET but actually it was Jul-31 2007 19:00 PDT in Orange County :)):

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=63560#post63560


(...) we are looking at the 2k (cropped) at 100fps possibility.

Jim

:sorcerer:

[Jeff Kilgroe]

i am afraid rumors about any end of the wicked 23.98/24/25/29.97/30 and up might be premature ;)

Hehe.

I guess I understand the 100Hz desirability for PAL regions... That and a few more frames/second is always welcome. But I do think a bigger issue is being made out of it than need be. For us NTSC guys are used to a 60Hz system and I don't see anyone screaming that we must have 120fps. But I sure would like the full 120fps ability. :) Because, after all, 96 isn't an even multiple of 30 or 60... It's a multiple of 24, which is not a broadcast standard anywhere in the world, that I'm aware of.

Keep in mind that RED has completely variable frame rates and the 96 would be an upper limit, not just a set value. So you could set your frame rate anywhere from 1fps to 96fps and anywhere in between. You could easily do 75fps to match 3x 25p.

[(real)filmmaker1977]

Update from the company's owner himself (Aug-01 2007 3:00 GMT 4:00 CET but actually it was Jul-31 2007 19:00 PDT in Orange County :)):

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=63560#post63560



:sorcerer:

great news

[Michael Brennan]

Shooting slo mo at 100p (for 25p delivery) or 120p (for 30p delivery) does allow one to extract every 4th frame and finish with a series of frames that does not stutter.

It gives one the option of hedging bets in a doc situation if you are unsure if the shot will need synch sound.

Example, subject learning to ride a horse, she is wearing radio mic.
Maybe she will fall off maybe she won't.
If she falls you can use 100 fps. If she doesnt use 25p.

This is not a common technique even on varicam (shoot 60p but use 30p)as the post solutions for extracting every 2nd frame is time consuming.

Now what would be very handy is for Graeme to come up with an easy way of flagging every 4th frame of a 100fps recording to make extraction processing of 25p from say a hours worth of 100p doc footage in post automated. Frame accurate timecode and a synched audio file would be usefull!

Or can a duplicate recording be made, CF card records 24/25p with audio while hard drive does 96/100p?


Mike Brennan

[Anders Holck]

Or can a duplicate recording be made, CF card records 24/25p with audio while hard drive does 96/100p?


You can only record to one media at a time

[Michael Brennan]

You can only record to one media at a time

You dont ask....you don't get.



Mickjoebill

[PenGun]

You can only record to one media at a time

You could capture from the HDMI port ... only 720p but might be useful.

[Gordon Prince]

Hehe.

You could easily do 75fps to match 3x 25p.

Hey man, don't break our party. It's done:


Update from the company's owner himself (Aug-01 2007 3:00 GMT 4:00 CET but actually it was Jul-31 2007 19:00 PDT in Orange County :)):

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=63560#post63560



:sorcerer: